Quote:
Originally Posted by Soper
You're right, would have been 8-0.
Please stop with the LOI stuff. Most LOI players are not good enough for the Irish team. John O'Shea may be poor but he's a lot better than most LOI players.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soper
You're right, would have been 8-0.
Please stop with the LOI stuff. Most LOI players are not good enough for the Irish team. John O'Shea may be poor but he's a lot better than most LOI players.
Watch much LOI? I think the point he was making was that the team didn't try and the LOI lads would have. I'm fairly certain he wasn't claiming they were better playersQuote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
I disagree. The team did try they just weren't good enough.
They were outclassed by a better team and all the huffing and puffing in the world would not have changed that.
First off, thank god this was just a friendly. Player-wise, I don't think that there was much more Staunton could have done considering all the absentees. Our BEST 4 players were out FFS. And do we really think a Paddy McCarthy would have made much of a difference? I am not saying he should not have been called up for this as I think he and McShane should have been, but I don't think they would have made much of a difference.
The bottom line is that we simply are not that good. Maybe when we have everyone available, we might be able to hold out for a draw in Germany. I think Staunton made a big mistake at the end of last season by not playing an extra 3-4 friendlies against World Cup bound teams to give the likes of McGeady, McCarthy, McShane, Ireland etc more time to gel with the team and deal with problem areas such as centre-back and midfield.
Well Ireland is injured and may not even get his game for Man. City.
A few positives from tonight:
McGeady, in the first half with two Dutch players on him, doing a Zidane move to spin away from them. It's been a looooong time since I've seen an Irish player with this much skill.
Paddy Kenny isn't that bad.
Doyle looks good.
Other than that...the Germans are a team that runs and runs so that will play to our strength.....
Can't believe the $$ I am spending to get to Stuttgart...oh well, hope lives eternal!
You pick a game when we had 8 squad withdrawals in order to prove your point, I see. :rolleyes: It was a clueless, passionless performance, and a sad way to mark the last friendly at Lansdowne. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by 4tothefloor
But it's also a one-off, the game in Germany will see a different, fitter, hungrier Irish side, with most if not all the big names back. I wouldn't panic because of the Holland result. Just one of those nights.
Lets face it. We have zero chance of qualifying from the group. With that in mind lets concentrate on the next world cup.
Get rid of Kilbane and Clinton. Complete liabilities.
Get rid of Staunton. Players don't respect him. They think he's a mate. Duff, Keane et al need someone who frightens the ****e out of them. Good footballers but lazy buggers.
4-0, 8-0, whats the difference? At least with some eL players in the side you are going to improve the level here rather than just picking players because they work over the water. When we were down to 16 players the chance was there to call in 3 or 4 eL players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
eircom league players as squad members?Sure.they would put a bit of pride in their jersey anyway.bryne looked ok v chile.if they were in the squad i would say it would add a bit more meanin to the training matches!
was dissappointed with kav tonight.i thought that he did well against chile.i expected him to impose himself more.the midfield role was there for him to take and make his own.that was the biggest downer for me tonight with the players.and morrison was as useless as he normally is.
so does this mean drubbing mean ye'd take nolan?
hehe....
Depending on the result in germany - I would seriously consider hanging youngsters in the squad for the next games against czechs and cyprus. I think the fight for 2nd place will be a real dog fight - I would fear the welsh and the slovaks more than the czechs to be honest.
McGeady, Alan O'Brien, Joey O'Brien, Ireland - mccarthy and mcshane shoudl be brought into the squad - I know people will they totally lack experience but to be honest I would prefer these players to get experience.
If everyone is fit my team for Germany is
Given
Finnan
Dunne
O'Brien
Harte
McGeady
Reid
Reid
Duff
Keane
Doyle
That team is not too bad at all and is capable of getting a result if they play their hearts out - I include Harte because of his skill at free kicks....and our other options for left back aren't an awful lot better than him and dont have the free kicks skills
The players tried but were comprehensivly outplayed in every area.
The guys on the rte radio panel (names? heavy dub accents, sound all the same to me) were spot on with their comments. There was no pressure on the Dutch playing the ball out from the back. Our front 3 couldn't close down for shíte. If Kilbane did move forward then Van de Saar finds Huntelaar in space. All reminiscent of the home game against France. Or else the Dutch play it around toying until a space appears.
As soon as our back 4 have the ball the dutch are closing us down effectively, ball is pumped for safety or possesion lost
It was all so natural for the Dutch.
Staunton was right about Alan O'Brien, what a prospect.
Worst moment was Reid getting injured early. More feckin' injuries to key players.
Gents i once created a popular thread about ireland goin the way of scotland and northern ireland (actually they r better than us )..........
Devastation and a massacre awaits in germany and for the 1st time in my 26 years i will not even watch the game.
I am a dundalk man and was drinking in a bar staunton sometimes drinks in......everybody discussed how much a joke it is him getting the job (that was even before the kick off)
I know we are short of players but come on drop these donkeys like
Kilbane (how the hell is this guy in every irish team)
Kavanagh (no comment)
O' SHEA (mother of god please)
Morrison
It was embarrassing to watch. It was a stroll for the Dutch, I'm bloody relieved I didn't fork out on coming home for the game, I nearly did but the Stuttgart trip wiped me. My thoughts on a player by player basis?
Paddy Kenny - no saves to make but what is the point of kicking the ball long every time? It went straight to the Dutch who attacked us all over again. Look how Van Der Sar varies his distribution - short, long, throws it out etc. Never gives the ball away.
Carr - looked like he wanted to be back in Newcastle. Should have stayed retired if that is the attitude.
Finnan - in limbo on the left, had to go onto his right foot every time. One of the best RB in the PL was wasted.
O'Brien and O'Shea - Didn't pick up their markers at set pieces. Didn't close down and lack pace - to sum it up they are both ****.
MacGeady - only bright spark in the team that was in the first 11. Lots of promise and exciting to watch. Will improve as well.
Kavanagh - useless. Gave the ball away by playing it long EVERY feckin time.
S Reid - got injured and ineffective.
Kilbane - no comment.
Elliot - Kept his head up after making that God awful but Doyle is a better player IMO and the Reading man offers something.
Clinton - ran round like a headless chicken but had nothing to work on.
Subs -
O'Brien, Doyle and Douglas made an impact and looked hungry. Miller made a promising start, took some good corners but was careless on a good few occasions.
Ireland were terrible, The Dutch had to do very little to get 4 goals and it could have been much much more.
Staunton was and is a terrible appointment, no amount of FAI bull$h!t is going to cover that up.
It's all very well to say drop players like Kilbane, Kav, Morrisson, O'Shea but you need to replace them with players capable of performing at this level.
We either go cap in hand to the likes of Kevin Nolan and use the granny rule to get players into the fold or we accept that the rebuilding process takes time.
From my limited knowldge of EL football there would be some players capable of making the step up, the evidence is alrready pretty strong. Kevin Doyle went from the EL to among the top scorers in the Championship within 10 months and then the Ireland side. As someone else pointed out Murphy hardly set Waterfors alight but he's scoring in the Championship now and in the Ireland squad.
Why do we have to wait for verification from some English club manager before giving these guys a chance?
Reading this board for sometime I have come to the conclusion that Irish Supporters have a false sense of our level of talent, where expectation exceeds actual talent, As a nation our talent pool peaked in 88 / 90, the conditions in the English League allowed for this, less foreign players and money meant English coaches nurtured Irish talent instead of discarding it for quick solutions from Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia and beyond.. the result was such fine players as Ronnie Whelan, Paul McGrath, Liam Brady etc.. Throw in an old school no nonsense coach and the result was Euro 88, Italia 90 and a spin-off in 94 before the premiership took hold and less Irish players developed.
Qualifying for 2002 was down to the exceptional talents of one of the finest player in the World in 2000 /2001 at his peak. FACT!
Looking at the dirge served up last nite it is clear times have changed we don't have the players we had back in 89 or an exceptional player of grit like we had in 2001. No instead we have Morrison, Kavanagh, Miller, O'Shea, Carr, Kilbane Etc.. How can we ever expect to achieve again in the short to medium term?
I'd agree with that 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by concanta
No O'Shea, No Kilbane, No Morrison, No Kavanagh.
Those four players may as well play for the opposition for all the good they do.
Yesterdays result was embaressing. However it was necessary in recognising our weaknesses and strenghts. The fact that the forementioned players were playing with a completely different approach to the game (ie hoof and hope) to players like Finnan and Mc Geedy (short patient passing, finding a player when in possession) shows Staunton as a huge weakness in that his message for approaching the match was not made clear.
The positive is the youth. The second half showed us our potential. Mix this potential with first team players like Duff, Keane and Given and you have talent and experience. Leave in Kilbane, Kavanagh, Morrision and O'Shea and we leave ourselves exposed in each respective area of the pitch. I'd inlcude Harte too but there, as mentioned, we have little in the way of choice.
The worrying aspect of this performance is that all the players who started tonight are either in our first X1 or are seriously looking to be part of it. There was no on the pitch , apart from Kenny and Carr that I haven't heard people mention as their first choice X1.
It was a shocking performance, the worst defending i have ever seen.
Positives: Kevin Doyle ( has to start in Germany). And Alan O'Briens pace. Sadly thats it.
Also disappointing was Stauntons complete lack of analysis after the game. Does he have no idea what happened out there last night??? At least if he gave proper analysis, he'd be giving people a sense that he understands the game.
Last night was an absolute shambles IMHO and proved what I've said all along. Aiden McGeady should be a starting XI player for Ireland. He was far and away the most comfortable Ireland player on the pitch.
People talk about experience but McGeady is only 20 but has CL experience and has played plenty of matches in front of a very demanding 60,000 home crowd.
Guys like Kavanagh and Elliot are nothing more than battle hardened Championship cloggers and for them to keep a young talent like McGeady out the team is a disgrace.
Aiden must start in Germany!
I wonder were the Dutch Boards a bit like this after we won 2-0 in Amsterdam in a friendly with players like Alan Quinn and Graham Barrett in the side.
Seen it all before. The clamour for LOI players in the side (many of whom failed in the UK) when things go bad. 3 games into a manager's career and he has to go :rolleyes: .
I'd sooner have the **** ups here than in Germany. Looks like a Dunne/O'Brien centre partnership with O'Shea at left full back. Kilbane was caught out of position numerous times when he went back there.
Centre midfield in the real problem and I can't think of any solutions I am afraid. Kavanagh is a holding roll in front of the back 4 and S. Reid. Backs to the wall in Germany but I have been watching football long enough to know that managers go from zero to hero in the space of one game. Who knows but we must believe. Hard to on the evidence of last night but there were two positives in McGeady and Doyle.
Didn't see the game at all as I had a game myself. Reading all the posts I can only imagine how bad it was.
I think it will be slightly different in Germany though. We will have a stronger squad (Please God!) and a couple of weeks more fitness under us as well as a couple of competitive games.
Germany are not as technically sound as Holland (who incidently look like they are developing one of the best young sides around in years) and although they are technically better than us, they rely on workrate like us also. This opens up different avenues and presents differents prospects towards the game.
It's important to remeber that we were down to the bare bones and only 1 of the players has played a competitive game so far so I wouldn't be pressing the panic button just yet. However, if we suffer a heavy defeat in Stuttgart then I'd be having a serious think about Stauntons position if I was Delaney and co.
Just to throw my tuppence worth in....
The first half was absolutely shockin and I thought the midfield were to blame, especially Kavanagh. Was keepin an eye on him from the start and he never once came to receive the ball short from the defence or goalkeeper, hence the constant long balls cause there was nobody else to pass to!!! Reid was anonymous,very disappointing, had high hopes of him rising to the occasion...Andy O'Brien was the worst player on the pitch, poor marking poor positioning, just looked lost....Also Paddy Kenny's distribution was painfully slow...
But, I'm gonna try and draw on a few positives :eek:
I thought Elliott was excellent throughout, looked sharp, super touch and was still running his heart out in the 90th minute. Thought McGeady was one of the best players on the park in the second half. Finnan was class as usual. I was actually very impressed with Miller, OK he gave away a couple of silly balls but was constantly looking for it and provided the passing and movement that was sorely lacking in the first half....Kevin Doyle also looks like he'll be able to cut it at premiership level....
Here would be my best team for Stuttgart
Given
Finnan O'Shea Dunne Harte
McGeady Reid Miller Duff
Keane Doyle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba
Miller and Harte to start against Germany?! O'Shea at centre back?
No to Harte... he won't mark his man leaving a gap .. cross in from the right side to Klose 1-0 after 2 minutes
O' Shea will probably partner Reid in the centre, like it or not. And Finnan and Carr will also probably start
So the only positions up for grabs are RM and who plays with Keane
Right lads – lets leave the eL player debate right where it is ok. I’m sure the mods on here would rather that old chestnut be left in the closet. We know where everyone stands on this issue and bringing it up after a 4-0 defeat counts as WUMing imo.
As for the game – this is the usual overreaction here. Fellas saying that they are not going to watch for the 1st time in 26 years. FFS get over it - supporting your national team should be regardless weather we are good - or no good as the case may currently be!
As for the future – a team like ourselves cannot to be missing our 4 best players on any given day. Given, Dunne, Duff and Keane are our 4 best players and are key in each aspect of our game – with these 4 in the team we can give anyone a game, we need to keep as many creative players in our team as possible and added to our good old fashioned passion and pride we have a good chance of qualifying. Last night however showed us what will happen if we are missing our key players – a country of our resources cannot cope – unfortunately that was plain for all to see.
People are already being very hard on Staunton. Managers should be judged on performances in the competitive games, friendlies are after all meaningless. If the German public had their way leading up to the world cup then Klinsman would have got the boot. Remember the 3rd placed team in the world cup was beaten 4-1 by Italy last February. Expectation was at nil and his players turned around and nearly won the thing despite having very few talented players. So roll on September – sure we haven’t a hope! ;)
Morrison is a total waste of space, at last Giles and Co. copped onto him last night. I would of expecting better from someone taken from the south terrace to play.A player that tries to make it look like hes going for the ball but really has no interest. Doyle and Keane up front against Germans - no debating.
Next on my hitlist is OShea, the less said about him the better.Why did Ferguson give him a contract extrension?
As for the muppets that were booing/jeering robben last night cos he plays for chelsea:rolleyes:
Missing 4 of our best players is no excuse for that performance. Last time we played Holland in Amsterdam we beat them 1-0 with a patched up side..Quote:
Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid
There was a total lack of organization and leadership last night, and ultimately the manager must accept the flak. I'm not calling for his head, but that was totally unacceptable alst night imho..
Agreed on the booing lark...I was standing in the east terrace and some of the "fans" started booing Robben and Van Persie (probably because they play for rivals of Man Utd) and I was just plain embarrased. If either of them had been blatently diving then it would have been warranted but they were being booed when their names were being announced for God's sake! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by stickyjoe
I genuinely think O'Shea is a far too easy target, I think O'Brien should be turfed out as far away as possible from the Irish set-up...he was awful....
I'm contemplating setting up some sort of vigil to pray for Richie Dunne to recover from his injury asap cause without him we're fooked!!!!
Whats really worrying was wrong Staunton got it tactically. Ireland have always been competitive, have always closed people down as a unit. But last night we didn't do it as a unit and it allowed the Dutch knock the ball around with ease. It was better in the second half, but I'd blame Kilbane, a player whom I admire for his endeavour, for the 2 second half goals. Firstly he overran the ball and it was played in behind him which resulted in a goal. The next one he tried to play the off-side when Andy O'Brien had followed his player in, result another goal. Keven is clearly not a full back at this level.
I'd think of pairing Andy Reid up with S Reid in the centre of MF. O'Shea and Kavanagh are not good enough for me at this level. I was confident we'd snatch a draw in Germany but I'm actually afraid of the scoreline for the 1st time of my life. We never got thrashed with such ease before- we were always 'competitive' with regards to pressure and harrying but some of those lads last night had no fire to compensate for their lack of talent.
staunton has no idea tactically , it was obvious after 5 mins that everything was going through van der vaart and he should have been man marked and negated or at least bloody inconvenienced!!
miller and reid in midfield is not the answer , the germans will destroy us there. we are as good as them around the park in a few positions but central mid is a disaster for us and will be until someone steps up.
I for one cannot see a candidate , nevermind two .
andy reid patently unfit , steven reid poor last night, liam miller not strong enough in the tackle and giving away too much ball, john o'shea seems to have forgotten how to play football. the kav just not good enough , carsley?? finnan?? oh dear
I was equally as disapointed, it was like watching headless chickens. During the first half when Holland were over running our midfield, players were continualy looking to the bench for guidance - it wasn't there. My worry is why our Senior players went missing, I hope it is injuries rather than a problem with Stan. I bet they will all line out for the respcetive clubs this weekend,
It was a pleasure to watch Holland, their simple passing game & movement was clinical.
Lads lets roll up the socks and not get too down about the Germany game despite last nights results.
:)
Very dissappointing performance. The spine of the team tonight was not there. Kavangh O brien O Shea and Reid were not at the races in teh 1st half and I suppose thats the most dissappointing thing because none of those guys are ineperienced. Reid may have been injured but Kavanagh was terrible. Mc Geady and Doyle were the only positives and maybe the pace of young O brien on the left wing. Could be an impact sub to bring on to play on the break possibly at some point in the future. Doyle must start with Keane in Germany. We need to find a good centre of midfield partnership. A lot of thinking for Staunton to do in the mean time.
I do think that Holland are one of those teams though that love a frienly like this were they get plentry of room to destroy and they did do that last night. I dont think things are as bad as they seem in the same way they were not as good as people thought after the Sweden game.
That was the worst Irish performance I've seen in watching over 20 years of international football. I thought it was a bad appointment when the FAI went all out to tempt the Walsall assistant manager to take the post ignoring the fact that Walsall were doing terribly in League 1 at the time but little did I know how bad an appointment it could turn out to be.
Staunton has all the tactical qualities of the average schoolboy manager. He had the defence playing an offside trap against some of the world's quickest attacking players that obviously they hadn't worked on as they kept on getting caught out.
When we did attack we looked predictable but at the same time disorganised (if that makes any sense). I rate our chances as zero of getting anything bar a severe beating out of the German game with that pleb at the helm.
On the plus side I thought Johnathan Douglas had a decent game when he came on.
e but little did I know how bad an appointment it could turn out to be.
S on.[/QUOTE]
Sorry how bad has the appointment turned out to be. Its still early days we have won 3-0 which did not mean we were great and we have lost 4-0 which does not mean we are rubbish. Judge a man on this qualifiers in the same way Kerr Mc Carthy and Charlton and Hand and Giles were all judged. Not on 3 friendlies.
Agree 100%. Whatever about using eL players, any eL manager would have spotted this obvious problem and done something about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerMilla
ok so it was terrible last night and the dutch passed right through us and were lightening quick with everything .. kick outs, throws, free kicks. thought van de sar was class. played like a sweeper for the first half allowing the full backs push on and we were under pressure straight away, only when doyle came on did we start closing him down and at least it meant we werennt in trouble every time the keeper got the ball! personally thought young o'brien showed a bit of potential on the left, if a bit green yet. and douglas was ok too showing a bit of passion.
we are away against a world cup semi finalist in two weeks and make no bones but a draw wud be an absolutely smashing result. expect us to tighten up centrally (hope to god he dosent go 4-5-1!) and our attacks to come from out wide. i wud think:
given
finnan, dunne, o'brien, harte
miller (mcgeady), reid, o'shea, duff
doyle, keane
o'shea is definately not a centre half but cud do a job with reid to make more solid in the middle and both sit in to allow duffer and miller or mcgeady to push on.
Couple of points about last night
It was essentially a pre season friendly, still no excuse but keep it in mind.
Everyone get off Stans back, we have him for the next two years at least and it was only a friendly, lets hold fire at least untill after the German game.
Formation?! Why the tinkering so much, its not like we have to quality to mess around with, 442 and stick with it.
Defence is the major problem IMO, countless times last night,it was two on one etc or dutch players were free in acres.
I thought we created a number of good chances but never looked like taking any.
Start of 02 campaign, no one was expecting anything and with an average team(not much better than now argaubly) they put in a great performance in Holland, similar situation now and a big performance is due after last night.
Youth! We have a number of journey who we know inside out, I think this campaign should be all about blooding the younger players and see what happens. Alan O'Brien, Stephen Ireland, Kevin Doyle, Aiden McGeady, they have all showed at times that they have great skill, lets use it.
Finally, friendlies!! BK won almost every one and put in some great performances, however when it really matter we were rubbish.....perhaps now it will be the other way round (Clutching straws I know!)
sack the board
I think in Germany it'll be this
Given
Carr
O'Brien
Dunne
Harte
Finnan
O'Shea
S.Reid
Duff
Doyle
Keane
Alternatively he might op for Andy Reid in behind Keane at the expense of Doyle. While McGeady was the one bright spot last night I expect Stan to be more cautious away from home.
Apologies for bringing this up again and I expect a fairly hostile reaction to it, but we've being going down hill since McCarthy got the boot, its probably what we deserve for the disgraceful way he was treated in the end. Like him or hate him as a person or manager, but he regurarly got the Irish team punching above its weight.
What we learned last night:
- Kilbane is clueless at this level, for the 71st match in a row now.
- We only have one decent striker (Keane). Perhaps Doyle as well in the future.
- We are weak in midfield.
- We need a gameplan. (say what you want about Kerr, but at least he always had a game plan, even if it was often a defensive one. he'd never have lost 4-0.)
- Alan O'Brien is very fast, like Kevin Kilbane was six years ago. Coul be a good player, could be another Kilbane.
- Andy O'Brien needs to speak up on the pitch and organise that defence. He has the experience and the knowledge, he needs to make himself heard. I've seen him do it for Newcastle.
- John O'Shea still has a mental block every 10 minutes.
- Steve Carr doesn't add much to the squad.
- Paddy Kenny needs to make sure everyone is marked before a corner. Given would never have let Huntelaar stand free for the first goal.
Now, considering we are weak in midfield and short on strikers, I'd go 4-5-1. We got away with 4-4-2 before because we were playing a virtual 4-5-2 with Roy Keane in midfield. He's long gone now, we have to stop playing like he's still in the team.