McCartney sisters refuse to share stage with Thatcher

Your view on people's opinion of the I.R.A is incorrect. Personally most people I know seen a need for the I.R.A during the 70's and 80's to counter-act the behaviour of Thatcher and governments before her. People acknowledge that atrocities such as Enniskillen and Warrington shouldn't have happened but surely the nationalist community weren't expected to lie down and accept oppression.

The same people are now growing to hate the provisional movement because of incidents such as the Robert McCartney killing, Northern bank and general way Sinn Fein conduct themselves in and around what were Republican strongholds. I for one was shocked and by the continued success of Sinn Fein in the last election but when you ahve such feeble opposition in the S.D.L.P it was inevitable.

Who's opinion?

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Originally Posted by Pat O' Banton

Forgive any misinterpretation but your post seems to be suggesting that you should not have an opinion on anything that doesn't happen outside your immediate area or that by not coming from an area means that you can have no definitative knowlege of a situation.

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No. I am saying that if Dublin was being bombed every day for 30 years you would have a very different perception.

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Originally Posted by Speranza

Your view on people's opinion of the I.R.A is incorrect. Personally most people I know seen a need for the I.R.A during the 70's and 80's to counter-act the behaviour of Thatcher and governments before her. People acknowledge that atrocities such as Enniskillen and Warrington shouldn't have happened but surely the nationalist community weren't expected to lie down and accept oppression.

The same people are now growing to hate the provisional movement because of incidents such as the Robert McCartney killing, Northern bank and general way Sinn Fein conduct themselves in and around what were Republican strongholds. I for one was shocked and by the continued success of Sinn Fein in the last election but when you ahve such feeble opposition in the S.D.L.P it was inevitable.

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Firstly, Nationalists were hardly "oppressed", or certainly not to the degree that you made out. Not being able to get as good accomodation from the DHSS is hardly comparible to the treatment of the Jews by Hitler or the Russians under Stalin.

I do accept that they should not have just laid down and take British rule, but the place for negotiations is at the ballot box, not with guns and bombs.

I accept also that Nationalists in the 70s were glad of the Provisional movement to come about, however, by the early 80s most wanted rid of them, or at the very least a change of attitude. That imtimidation still goes on today. Paramilitaries from both sides are still running rampart.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

Ehh, no. A word used to desribe criminal, terrorist scum, and by that I don't mean just the IRA.

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Of which you have offered no evidence that says that any of the McCartney sisters were members of the IRA.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

I mentioned the IRA, that has nothing to do with the Irish Republic Government or State.

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You mentioned 1916. Are the Ulster Volunteers who went on to fight in WW1 the same as Billy Wright? You may not like it - and neither do I expect you to, nor care if you don't - but the uprising was to not to put too fine a point on it, a watershed in the making of the modern Irish state. Now that the IRA has 'stood down,' the Irish government - by commemorating its 90th anniversary next year - can put it back to where it belongs, as the birth of the modern state.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

Indeed had you read the thread you will have seen I condemed all violence from whoever.

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That isn't in doubt. What you suggest is that if the IRA had stuck to killing Prods then that would fine with us. It isn't. High horse and jumping to conclusions it may well be, but it beats emotive words like 'bigot' and unsubstantiated rumours.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

I also find it startling that so many on here condon the actions of a terrorist group who have killed thousands of people, wounded many more, and not to mention the trauma caused to those people's families and friends.

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Sorry, but who's jumping to conclusions now? I can't find anyone that condones the killing of civilians on these pages.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

But I suppose, 90% wasn't happening on your back door, so I have to forgive you for your ignorance.

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Is there some sort of competition on who suffered the most here? You might be forgiven to think that I actually reside in Andalucia but actually I've worked in London since my teens. While there was no email service back in the eighties so that the Provos could contact all the Paddies to let us know that they were planning to bomb this place or that, but as the Leeds four proved recently when Muslims were also their victims, I'd doubt they would have used the service either.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

When you hear what most Roman Catholic people in the North have to say about the IRA, I think you all will get a shock. Like I say, they persecuted more of their own people than all, yes, the loyalist scum put together. As I also said, loyalists were no better.

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Taken all in, you are probably right about the persecution (I'll bet you are wrong about the murder count though). Kangaroo courts, kneecapping of joyriders and petty thieves, the reluctance to allow the police to investigate matters outside the 'political' orbit - e.g. Joyriding and theft - as the SF spinners might say. But none of this dented the appeal of Irish nationalism amongst nearly half the population. In fact SF's vote has grown. But, as some posters have already stated, who's to blame for starting all this? The IRA weren't formed in 1916 and they were verging on a bunch of tree loving hippies in 1969 when the baloon went up.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

No. I am saying that if Dublin was being bombed every day for 30 years you would have a very different perception.

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Yes you pretty much are saying that your opinion is not or less valid due to location. You should not lightly dismiss the opinions of other simply on the grounds of location, yes people will have different opinions due to place of upbrining; its diversity and a way we can learn not not something to be dismissed due to the fact that you disagree with it.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Of which you have offered no evidence that says that any of the McCartney sisters were members of the IRA.

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Again, I never said that any of the sisters did.

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Originally Posted by lopez

What you suggest is that if the IRA had stuck to killing Prods then that would fine with us. It isn't. High horse and jumping to conclusions it may well be, but it beats emotive words like 'bigot' and unsubstantiated rumours.

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I suggested that from what I had read, it seems that the majority of people involved with this thread believe that setting up a terrorist body is legitimate, which, for whatever reason, it is clearly not.

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Originally Posted by lopez

can't find anyone that condones the killing of civilians on these pages.

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If that is what you think I am sorry, but surely you must accept that by saying the setting up of a terror group is fine, and with killing being the natural thing to do by them, then killing must be right. The IRA, or any terror group are not going to start up and not terrorise as the name would imply.

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Originally Posted by lopez

Is there some sort of competition on who suffered the most here?

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Certainly not. A killer is a killer regardless of whether he has killed one or one hundred. It was just a figure I quoted to back up my point.

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Originally Posted by lopez

I'll bet you are wrong about the murder count though.

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That is what I thought when I first read that, but it's true.

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Originally Posted by lopez

But none of this dented the appeal of Irish nationalism amongst nearly half the population.

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Nationalism and Republicanism are two seperate political ideals whereby a Republican will use violence, and a Nationalist will aim to get a United Ireland by political methods: the correct way and people I have a lot of respect for, ie. John Hume.

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Originally Posted by lopez

They were verging on a bunch of tree loving hippies in 1969 when the baloon went up.

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Well, not 100% true, as the IRA had carried out a number of attacks pre 1969. If you mean the attacks had decreased then fair enough.

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Originally Posted by Pat O' Banton

Yes you pretty much are saying that your opinion is not or less valid due to location. You should not lightly dismiss the opinions of other simply on the grounds of location, yes people will have different opinions due to place of upbrining; its diversity and a way we can learn not not something to be dismissed due to the fact that you disagree with it.

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I did not dismiss anything about people's opinion. Firstly, I am into politics in a fairly big way. I have opinions on America, and for instance Iraq. Secondly, I have never dismissed anybody's opinion on this or anyother forum, and I am sorry if I have come across as so. Have I ever been cheeky in any of my replies on this thread?

I would say though that if you lived in the town or city where all these attrocities were happening, your opinion would be different or more right wing.

I would also add I have never dismissed an opinion of a difference of upbringing. Indeed, I am from a mixed family. My father was a Protestant Policeman and my mother is from a Roman Catholic background. I know both opinions on things fairly well. I don't say to my mother, "Hey, I am not talking to you because (for whatever reason) I have formed a political belief that may be different to yours."

Regards.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

Again, I never said that any of the sisters did..

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So you're reference to them being 'two faced bigots' was merely down to them not sharing a stand with Thatch or that they voted Sinn Fein.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

If that is what you think I am sorry, but surely you must accept that by saying the setting up of a terror group is fine, and with killing being the natural thing to do by them, then killing must be right. The IRA, or any terror group are not going to start up and not terrorise as the name would imply..

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My own personal view is that the setting up of the IRA was inevitable considering what happened during both the quest for Home Rule (which incidently was autonomy within a British state) and later in Northern Ireland. One must remember that it was a virtually useless IRA under Cathal Goulding that led to a situation where nationalists were 48 hours from being driven out of Belfast. Only the humiliating sight of British troops sent by Whitehall to'keep the peace' prevented this. True, things on the whole weren't as bad as it was for the Jews in Europe (as Father Reid has alluded to) but then neither was a 32 county republic going to end with the gassing of the entire British population of Ireland, but that didn't stop the threat of a civil war both before and after WW1. As for violence, personally I'm not a pacifist. The fact that it is fine to bomb the f*ck out of someone if it comes from a legal government is also irrelevent IMO.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

That is what I thought when I first read that, but it's true..

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What are your sources? http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/violence/sutton.htm has a list of killings by the IRA from 1969-93. The IRA killed 65 alleged informers, 44 through 'feud killings', 158 'others' and 406 whom Dubya and co. would class as collaterell damage, not all of whom would be nationalist, making a maximum total of 673 Catholics (excluding Police and soldiers) killed by the IRA. In the same list Loyalists already beat that number with 713 sectarian murders. This is added with 169 Republican activists murdered by Loyalists and British forces and 194 civillians killed by the Police and Army, most of which the source states were Catholic. I agree that the Nationalist community (particularly in Catholic Ghettos have not led a charmed life under the Provos but I disagree with the figure that more Nationalists died from the Provos than the combined Loyalist/Crown Forces.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

Nationalism and Republicanism are two seperate political ideals whereby a Republican will use violence, and a Nationalist will aim to get a United Ireland by political methods: the correct way and people I have a lot of respect for, ie. John Hume..

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The difference as you rightly state is the method to achieve such a state. In the Irish context however, historically peacefull negotiations have always failed (prime example: The quest for Home Rule) which is partially the problem. Even the present situation which was achieved by parties agreeing to follow peaceful methods after 25 years of carnage, agreed to a solution that was virtually the same that was on offer in 1974 of which most 'constitutional' unionists had already rejected.

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Originally Posted by glentoranfan

Well, not 100% true, as the IRA had carried out a number of attacks pre 1969. If you mean the attacks had decreased then fair enough..

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I was reffering to the IRA leadership under Cathal Goulding that had already sought to follow the path of 'peace' come 1969 following a non-sectarian Marxist-Leninist revolutionism favoured of the time, a road that saw the 'officials' morph into the Democratic Left/Workers Party.

glentoranfan, how exactly were catholics supposed to bring about a change through the ballot box when gerrymandering was in place?

Your comment about Catholics getting a raw deal by the DhSS being the only form of oppression is absolutly pathetic and inaccurate. I just hope everyone else reading this doesn't share your blinkered vision of Irish history. Internment, B-specials, Falls curfew, Bloody Sunday....... I could go on but it would just bring about the old "stope playing the victim" i.e. "ignore the past" corker used by bigots.

:rolleyes: at the whole thread.

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Originally Posted by lopez

So you're reference to them being 'two faced bigots' was merely down to them not sharing a stand with Thatch or that they voted Sinn Fein.

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My reference was to them supporting a terror group who inflicted more damage "to [their] country" than any world government.

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Originally Posted by Speranza

Your comment about Catholics getting a raw deal by the DhSS being the only form of oppression is absolutly pathetic and inaccurate.

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That was me quoting one example. I know for a fact their were a lot more things than that, and I would be lying blatently if I said otherwise. However, to say Roman Catholics were treated the same as the Jews were by Hitler is equally, if not more farsical.

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Originally Posted by Speranza

Bloody Sunday

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I would point out it was Sinn Fein's own Martin McGuinness that shot at the army and caused it to kit off. I would suggest had he not, things would not have happened as they did.

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Originally Posted by lopez

As for violence, personally I'm not a pacifist

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Nor am I. There are times when force is right. However, when? If the IRA's cause is just, how many other terrorist groups are just? Al Quaeda, the Taliban, ETA ... Are they right?

Anyway, look, we are going around in circles here and eventually disappear up our arses. I have my opinion, and you have yours as you are more than entitled to do so. Indeed, I have learnt a thing or two and it has been interesting.

Regards.

Thank god you have gone. Your view to Bloody Sunday is to be frank a joke. Like Magilligan the week before the Para's were sent in to put the Civil Rights Assoc. in their place. Stating that Martin Mc Guiness fired the first shot is an incredibly lazy point to make aswell as it being a lie. Would a republican firing the first shot justify shooting men in the back as they rescue others, planting evidence on innocent casualties, shooting a women as she ran away and other incidents all too familiar to anyone who has studied the incident.

Bloody Sunday was ordered and planned from the most senior levels of Whitehall and although the present inquiry won't say this because of more whitewash it will definitly point the finger of blame solely at the Paras.

On a sidenote I see these murdering pigs haven't changed. 6 were acquited from killing innocent Iraqi's last week because of "lack fo evidence" :mad:

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Originally Posted by Speranza

Thank god you have gone

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Nah. I'll be around for a while. I can just see we are going around in circles, never going to be able to agree and bring this "debate" to some kind of close with as little ill feeling as possible and show that I respect what you all think, nor want to be some kind of "enemies". But let all the hate and bickering continue. It will do the Unionist and Nationalist cause a lot of good sure.

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Originally Posted by Speranza

On a sidenote I see these murdering pigs haven't changed. 6 were acquited from killing innocent Iraqi's last week because of "lack fo evidence" :mad:

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Below the belt and you know it. Out of an army of thousands in Iraq there are let's see a maximum of thirty that have been accused of maltreating Iraqis from British forces.

I was blasted in one of my points for generalisations, well, if that is not one, please tell me what is.

I am not refering to the British army in general but the parachute regiment. Have been accused of numerous atrocities in Iraq.

You were warned, clearly and concisely. Discussion of Northern Irish politics is now persona non grata on Foot.ie. Well done lads, I hope you're proud of yourselves.

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Care to back that up with non-partisan evidence or are you just going to fire it in there and have us all "believe" it?

Seriously, and I'm talking to everyone here, I'm not going to ban political debate across the board on Foot.ie, but I'm not putting up with that level of debate either. Either back up your points or don't make them. If people don't follow this simple rule, I will ban political debate across the board. I think that's pretty fair.

adam

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