Giles calls for artificial pitches in LOI

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Are you talking about a football pitch or a pie?

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:) ...

there is talk that synthetic or "astroturf" pitches increase injury to players. here in american sports there seem to be more knee and lower leg injuries on "turf" pitches. in my league the matches are played on turf. in the rain it does get slippery and you can slip and fall.

http://www.hss.edu/conditions_artifi...prevention.asp

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Originally Posted by sean r

there is talk that synthetic or "astroturf" pitches increase injury to players. here in american sports there seem to be more knee and lower leg injuries on "turf" pitches. in my league the matches are played on turf. in the rain it does get slippery and you can slip and fall.

www.hss.edu/conditions_artificial-turf-sports-injury-prevention.asp

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Sean R, thats an interesting article debating how various types of artificial pitches work out for injuries in American sports such as American Football.

Undoubtedly of more specific relevance is a FIFA study about soccer being played on FIFA 2 star rated artifical pitches.
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/afde...ts_1_11166.pdf


FIFA’s Medical Assessment and Research Centre (F-MARC) conducted a study of the injuries sustained at the FIFA U-17 tournament in Peru in 2005, which was played entirely on football turf, with the injuries sustained at previous FIFA U-17tournaments, which were played mainly
on grass. There was effectively no difference in the incidence, nature and causes of injuries observed during games played on artificial turf compared with those played on grass.
See page 9

There is also an interesting piece about the Oriel Park pitch and the impacts at Dundalk (pages 2 -5). Perhaps it gilds the lily in parts but the basics of it are correct.

There is a host of other interesting items including

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“They did the maths,” explains Iñaki Alvaro, Event Director for the FIFA
World-17 Championship and also FIFA’s Head of Youth and Development Events. “A football turf field should last ten to twelve years“ and they worked out that it would only take three years to get a payback between the cost of installing new pitches, including maintenance, and the
upkeep of the grass fields.

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EDIT - Here is a whole raft of other research which basically reaches the same conclusions that there are no additional incidents of injury
http://www.syntheticturfcouncil.org/...Risk_of_Injury

sorry zek but he is talking through his ass tro the most a pich could return is about k50 a year after maintance and runninng cost not to mention 21% vat and a sinking fund to replace te surface in a number of years if it was running at that level there is not a hope in hell it would last 10 years.
there is a stark difference in installing a pitch for revenue or to use for LOI the former may bring in a profit (I would doubt it) the latter will not.

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Originally Posted by passerrby

sorry zek but he is talking through his ass tro the most a pich could return is about k50 a year after maintance and runninng cost not to mention 21% vat and a sinking fund to replace te surface in a number of years if it was running at that level there is not a hope in hell it would last 10 years.
there is a stark difference in installing a pitch for revenue or to use for LOI the former may bring in a profit (I would doubt it) the latter will not.

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The Oriel Park experience indicates that both are possible (revenue and LoI/European football) - although thie revenue/profit issue cannot be said with absolute certainty until the pitch requires replacement.

wil not disagre with you zek but you must be turning close to k150 a year to be able to show a profit of K50 and that means close to 12 grand a month minumum

if it costs 250k or more to install how long before a club will see a substancial profit? they wont make 250k in a year with pitch rentals or other activities. they might same 50k year on not having to pay for a traning ground but how much before the club turns a profit? also what if a part of the pitch needs to be replaced. if it gets torn or warn out. that might cost a handy fee too.

Good reading in those links,thanks lads.
Dundalk have to be making good money on that pitch,an astute,no nonsense business man like Gerry Matthews would rip it up if it he didnt think it was a good investment for the club.

Can you play rugby on them? Ground sharing with a rugby team mightn't be the worst thing in the world. In particular, if Shels ever leave Tolka, I remember there being some talk of them moving to Donnybrook, but the major problem with that would have been the state of the pitch after schools rugby.

The back pitch in Lansdowne Road is an astro rugby pitch. There's astro rugby pitches in UCD too. Don't know if they're the exact same type, but it's certainly doable.

honestly wouldnt like to see astro/3g pitches in LOI grounds,takes away from the real football for me!

the "fake" surface may look better,but i think they'd cause more injuries and any profit gained from people renting the pitch would be spent on the extra medical care for players!

I feckin hate the astro pitches myself.
Used to go to the college in Athlone IT where they have one of these super amazing astro pitches.
Playing as a goalkeeper on one of those is a horrible experience. It just doesn't feel right and is sore as feck to dive on. It's too solid, sore on the back of your legs if you aren't used to it, and kicking a ball off it just isn't the same as regular grass.
I'm all for improving the state of pitches, but Astro or any other artificial surface is most certainly not the answer.

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Originally Posted by LOI_Fanatic

honestly wouldnt like to see astro/3g pitches in LOI grounds,takes away from the real football for me!

the "fake" surface may look better,but i think they'd cause more injuries and any profit gained from people renting the pitch would be spent on the extra medical care for players!

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

I feckin hate the astro pitches myself.
Used to go to the college in Athlone IT where they have one of these super amazing astro pitches.
Playing as a goalkeeper on one of those is a horrible experience. It just doesn't feel right and is sore as feck to dive on. It's too solid, sore on the back of your legs if you aren't used to it, and kicking a ball off it just isn't the same as regular grass.
I'm all for improving the state of pitches, but Astro or any other artificial surface is most certainly not the answer.

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Thanks guys, I think I got it now

Astro = non grass
3G = non grass

therefore Astro = 3G ???????

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

I feckin hate the astro pitches myself.
Used to go to the college in Athlone IT where they have one of these super amazing astro pitches.
Playing as a goalkeeper on one of those is a horrible experience. It just doesn't feel right and is sore as feck to dive on. It's too solid, sore on the back of your legs if you aren't used to it, and kicking a ball off it just isn't the same as regular grass.
I'm all for improving the state of pitches, but Astro or any other artificial surface is most certainly not the answer.

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Ya 100% agree. I have played on a lot of them and use the fake one about twice a week at the moment. Its heavy going on the joints and I left a load of skin on it on day after going for my first and last sliding tackle. Seen a guy bang his head on the ground before too, it wasnt much of a bang but he was knocked out cold. Too solid as nigekl has said and not enough give in them.

Bit like a pair of fake titties really. They may look the business and have a nice shape but when you get down to it, it just not the same.

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Originally Posted by redobit

Ya 100% agree. I have played on a lot of them and use the fake one about twice a week at the moment. Its heavy going on the joints and I left a load of skin on it on day after going for my first and last sliding tackle. Seen a guy bang his head on the ground before too, it wasnt much of a bang but he was knocked out cold. Too solid as nigekl has said and not enough give in them.

Bit like a pair of fake titties really. They may look the business and have a nice shape but when you get down to it, it just not the same.

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your anology is all wrong if you "get down to it" your in tha wrong area completely thats astro turt area

1. 3G do not cause more injuries than natural grass (neither do astroturf - it's normally burns and grazes like the horrible old ones next to the UCD sports centre). However there is a higher risk of injury for players moving from one type of surface to the next without proper adjustment, I've seen that regularly in countries where 3G and grass co-exist. Knee and ankle injuries are common.
2. It is possible to do more than 8 hours on a 3G pitch, plus to accommodate other sports. In Oriel the club allowed the county hurlers use it when Dowdallshill was out of bounds.
3. When you use the proper 3G surface on a regular basis it's a dream to play on, you have less odd bounces of the ball, less impact injuries and the downside is if it's not watered properly then it can play more difficult.

I believe there is a UEFA scheme in place to co-fund the installation of 3G pitches for clubs. I saw this happen in Croatia, Malta and Russia, so surely Irish clubs, via the FAI, can go for it if it helps revenue and consistency?

The thing that really attracts me to the idea of a 3G pitch is the idea is that instead of having people in your stadium once a fortnight or thereabouts they'll be in there every day. It's a great way to have your ground at the heart of the community, especially since you can host a lot more local finals etc than you would otherwise be able to.

Very important intangible benefit Mr A. It is great to see Oriel a hive of activity most nights of the week, often a first time at the ground for some. Add in the YDC and its increasing role in the town (eg if it wasnt for another event the recent election count for Louth would have been held in Oriel Park) well we kinda have taken the Mountain to Mohammmed!

very true mr A gortakeegan full most evenings with inderage and Junior games great to see it at the heart of the community while i have my doubts about revenue generating on a pitch used for LOI the worth to the community is very positive.

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Originally Posted by Mr A

The thing that really attracts me to the idea of a 3G pitch is the idea is that instead of having people in your stadium once a fortnight or thereabouts they'll be in there every day. It's a great way to have your ground at the heart of the community, especially since you can host a lot more local finals etc than you would otherwise be able to.

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Last year there were 25 first team games in Oriel Park.

I don't know the exact numbers but because of the 3G pitch Oriel Park hosted matches on about 350 days.

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

Thanks guys, I think I got it now

Astro = non grass
3G = non grass

therefore Astro = 3G ???????

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Whats the signal strength like in the more remote areas though?

It appears that Crusaders are sufficiently happy about their 3G pitch that they want to incorporate the same again into their new proposed ground development:

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The Crues are also smiling off the pitch as the £61million cash injection for local football from government moves them a step closer to realising their dream of a new stadium with Newington YC.
A club statement read: “Crusaders and Newington are pressing ahead with our ambitious Sports, Educational and Media Village.
“We were pleased that the project is within the Minister's thinking and anticipate a measure of government support towards the end of the 2011-15 budgetary spending round. Currently we are preparing a bid to the Belfast City Council public ‘Expression of Interest’ call, with a deadline of March 24.
“This is an open, competitive process and our two clubs, along with our design team and financial backers will submit a strong bid, focussing on economic viability, employment, state of the art leisure facilities and, most importantly, cross-community shared space.
“We intend that our bid will provide a ‘wow’ factor for north Belfast and the city as a whole. Thereafter, the council will deliberate on who to chose as a lead developer. In addition to the stadium and sports business park, the bid will propose a public ice-rink, an indoor arena hosting pro-basketball and a full size, 3G, GAA pitch, as well as an international standard training suite.
“This project has been a long time in gestation, but we're at the ‘business end’ now and expect to have the opportunity to ‘raise the bar’ in terms of the quality of facilities to be provided.”

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Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...#ixzz1HSKWMmk2



A stg£61 million cash injection from government? We should apply to rejoin the UK straight away!!

Crusaders initialintention was to lift the turf and take it with them. Their stadium scheme has fallen behind by at least a year so I'm not sure if that is still their intention.

To be honest and for the attention of the the nay sayers of the artificial/astroturf/3G the reality is that surfaces like ours opens OP at time when it was never before available and the revenue streams is of a great benefit to the clubs. No club in the land is cash rich or even asset rich that they can look down their noses at this surface and say that on principle that could do without the extra revenue stream.
In regards to payback I think before you do that you need to look at the purchase and installation of the surface only. and for the primary costs of clearing, adding in the kerbing, the tarmac thingy, installing the surround on a longer term as these will not need to be replaced when you need to replace the surface so you can factor in this cost over a longer period of time (10 yrs)
Also in that time you can move the old surface to another location (as we will be putting our old surface into the YDC, this is open to correction) so we'll soon be able to utilise two pitches.
Also we need to factor in the non finacial aspects of it and the promotion is does of the club to the north east area. every one of us who plays football relishes playing on the oriel surface and the effects on the body, injurywise are non existent compared to the cabbage patches i played on when i limped off with twistes ankles or shin splints

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The Crues are also smiling off the pitch as the £61million cash injection for local football from government moves them a step closer to realising their dream of a new stadium with Newington YC.

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Thats some cash injection if true.

So what happens to a 3G pitch when it deteriorates? If it doesn't become unsafe, and the cost wasn't too high, it could build a lot of goodwill in the community if it was donated or sold to a local club or youth group. Alternatively, it could be lifted and used as a training pitch and revenue generator. I have no idea about the practicality of moving an already-laid 3G pitch though.

Another IL club: http://www.carrickrangers.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=205

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Originally Posted by jinxy lilywhite

To be honest and for the attention of the the nay sayers of the artificial/astroturf/3G the reality is that surfaces like ours opens OP at time when it was never before available and the revenue streams is of a great benefit to the clubs. No club in the land is cash rich or even asset rich that they can look down their noses at this surface and say that on principle that could do without the extra revenue stream.

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I definately wouldn't be a naysayer, however you can't transpose those revenue streams to every club. I'm not sure Longford would have the population base for it to get the revenue that ye have for example. A few other "rural" clubs would be the same. It has to be an individual club decision based on a realistic cost benefit analysis.

That'd all be before you get into how clubs are going to fund it in the first place - you might not have noticed but the banks are fecked, and they'll hardly see a LoI club as a good credit risk! Won't be too much Government funding either. The FAI aren't going to put money to anywhere except filling the advantage club black hole for the foreseeable, so it'd probably come down to the international organisations as mentioned previously.

And given Longford have 3G (?) 5-a-side pitches beside the ground, would there be a need to make the main pitch 3G too?

Same could apply for Monaghan.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And given Longford have 3G (?) 5-a-side pitches beside the ground, would there be a need to make the main pitch 3G too?

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Good old astro, none of this fancy crap!

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Originally Posted by peadar1987

So what happens to a 3G pitch when it deteriorates? If it doesn't become unsafe, and the cost wasn't too high, it could build a lot of goodwill in the community if it was donated or sold to a local club or youth group. Alternatively, it could be lifted and used as a training pitch and revenue generator. I have no idea about the practicality of moving an already-laid 3G pitch though.

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The majority cost of laying the pitch i'd imagine are the ground works and foundation layers as Jinxy mentioned. When the pitch in Oriel was relayed it was only the surface layer that replaced. The surface layer itself wouldnt be much use on its own. If a local club wanted to save on a pitch installation they could maybe use a second hand surface layer but the foundation work would still be needed. The savings as such wouldn't be huge in the overall costs. In saying that we will be using our old surface in the YDC, i will actually be very interested in how it will be installed and how it will subsequently play as i doubt you will have the extensive sub layers as you do with the main pitch.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I definately wouldn't be a naysayer, however you can't transpose those revenue streams to every club. I'm not sure Longford would have the population base for it to get the revenue that ye have for example. A few other "rural" clubs would be the same. It has to be an individual club decision based on a realistic cost benefit analysis.

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To be fair, I don't think anyone here (or J Giles) suggested for a moment that this would work for every club.

I imagine the "naysayers" that Jinxy Lilywhite referred to are those who refuse to understand the basic differences between Astro and 3G or the Flat Earth folk whose thinking operates on the closed mind idea that if it is not a grass pitch its no good

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Originally Posted by Ezeikial

To be fair, I don't think anyone here (or J Giles) suggested for a moment that this would work for every club.

I imagine the "naysayers" that Jinxy Lilywhite referred to are those who refuse to understand the basic differences between Astro and 3G or the Flat Earth folk whose thinking operates on the closed mind idea that if it is not a grass pitch its no good

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And ironically, many of those grass pitches are anything but flat earth!

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Originally Posted by Dunny

Another IL club: http://www.carrickrangers.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=205

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The make up of stadia in the top two divisions in Norway:



Aalesund - Color Line Stadion - Artificial
SK Brann - Brann Stadion - Natural
Fredrikstad - Fredrikstad Stadion - Natural
FK Haugesund - Haugesund stadion - Natural
Lillestrøm SK - Åråsen stadion - Natural
Molde FK - Aker Stadion - Natural
Odd Grenland - Skagerak Arena - Artificial
Rosenborg BK - Lerkendal stadion - Natural
Sarpsborg 08 - Sarpsborg Stadion - Artificial
Sogndal - Fosshaugane Campus - Natural
Stabæk - Telenor Arena - Artificial
IK Start - Sør Arena - Natural
Strømsgodset - Marienlyst Stadion - Artificial
Tromsø IL - Alfheim Stadion - Artificial
Viking FK - Viking Stadion - Natural
Vålerenga Fotball - Ullevaal Stadion - Natural

Alta - Finnmarkshallen - Artificial
Asker Fotball - Føyka Stadion - Artificial
Bodø/Glimt - Aspmyra Stadion - Artificial
Bryne - Bryne Stadion - Natural
HamKam - Briskeby Arena - Natural
Hødd - Høddvoll Stadion - Natural
Hønefoss - AKA Arena - Artificial
Kongsvinger - Gjemselund Stadion - Artificial
Løv-Ham - Varden Amfi - Artificial
Mjøndalen - Nedre Eiker Stadion - Natural
Nybergsund-Trysil - Nybergsund Stadion - Artificial
Randaberg - Randaberg Stadion - Artificial
Ranheim - DnB NOR Arena - Natural
Sandefjord - Komplett.no Arena - Natural
Sandnes Ulf - Sandnes Idrettspark - Natural
Strømmen - Strømmen Stadion - Artificial

Norway's probably a bit different given the likes of Alta play indoors, and others are very far north (Tromso inside the Arctic Circle for example), meaning grass pitches are a practical problem as much as anything else. Not really the case here.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Norway's probably a bit different given the likes of Alta play indoors, and others are very far north (Tromso inside the Arctic Circle for example), meaning grass pitches are a practical problem as much as anything else. Not really the case here.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Ballybofey also inside the Arctic circle?

That's Bray you're thinking of.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And given Longford have 3G (?) 5-a-side pitches beside the ground, would there be a need to make the main pitch 3G too?

Same could apply for Monaghan.

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the mons have fours astro courts for 5 a side plus a full size 3g floodlight pich for rental and community programmes both are used seven days a week

It's no wonder Roddy went there

Limerick will be playing their first A league game of this season on an articfical surface.

Sean Choill

I know the club have used this for training already and I think the underage teams are using it too. Will be interesting to see how they get on on the pitch because I think it is different from the 3G pitches. Have played on it before myself and its a great surface to play on.