Here come the good times - for those in power

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Originally Posted by mypost

When I've travelled over there, the trains have been reliable, spacious, clean, and with reasonable fares.

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ORA has given an example of how the fares aren't reasonable. I've travelled from Bristol to London as well, and can verify the fare he gives (fortunately, I only went one way).

I've travelled regularly in England and Ireland by rail (most recently being last night, when I got the Rosslare Harbour train home from Dún Laoghaire), and trains, in general, aren't dirty here (in fact, they often have staff going through the train picking up rubbish). The trains are spacious, certainly compared to the train I got from London to Holyhead last month.

If you're to maintain your views of rail travel in England, can I suggest you heed at the rules of the forum and start providnig some examples, rather than just saying that things are as you say because they are as you say?

I don't quite follow you: there would be no replication that I can see. Maybe I've missed something? I do agree with you that RTE is pulled in too many directions, and in trying to serve all masters is spread too thinly. As I see it, a broken-up RTE, would work with a slimmed down staff. Some of those who leave (content and non-content roles) could find work in the new privately owned entities, so it would effectively be a transfer of staff to similar roles, but not replication. RTE and the new entities would have different remits (one PSB, the others commercial) and the content is unlikely to overlap, while the private entities would be likely to cut non-content costs to a minimum. I'm not a hundred per cent sure of the implication of the EU's Television Without Frontiers directive, but I think it allows for transmission of broadcasts across international borders, so although we're in a small country, there is a European market available, though how desirable an Irish channel would be in, say, Bulgaria, is moot.

Edit: was replying to ORA in Post 40, but Pineapple Stu nipped in while I was typing!

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Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

I'm not a hundred per cent sure of the implication of the EU's Television Without Frontiers directive, but I think it allows for transmission of broadcasts across international borders, so although we're in a small country, there is a European market available, though how desirable an Irish channel would be in, say, Bulgaria, is moot.

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Our current commercial operator only gets to 80% of homes on a FTA basis. There's too many costs associated with, for example, going FTA on a Satellite that covers Western Europe, never mind going further.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I've travelled from Bristol to London as well, and can verify the fare he gives (fortunately, I only went one way).

I've travelled regularly in England and Ireland by rail (most recently being last night, when I got the Rosslare Harbour train home from Dún Laoghaire), and trains, in general, aren't dirty here (in fact, they often have staff going through the train picking up rubbish). The trains are spacious, certainly compared to the train I got from London to Holyhead last month

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I'm not denying there are problems with British trains, I'm saying that whenever I was on them, there were no problems.

Recently, I got the morning train from Rosslare at Dun Laoghaire, it was full to bursting. I've often travelled on the evening service from Enniscorthy, and there's drinks all over the seats, and commuter newspapers embedded in the floor, 12 hours after they were handed out. Is that clean to you?

It's 4.30 return fare from Connolly to Bray, yet it's 8 Euro return from Connolly to Greystones, a distance of 1 extra stop. It's 70 Euro return Heuston-Cork, yet 32 Euro return Heuston-Westport, despite the Cork train taking considerably less time. Same trains run by the same company. Why?

There are fewer trains going to Greystones because it's single track, and there's considerably more maintenance of the line beyond Bray because - let's be honest here - it's an incredible feat of engineering, and one which has been adjusted only in recent times (five or six years ago?) to allow the DART to go to Greystones - at a cost of installing electric wires along the length of the route. It seems fair to me that those travelling to Greystones (such as myself) pay a bit extra to cover the Greystones-specific costs.

The train I got from London to Holyhead was also full to bursting. There was minimal overhead space for baggage, bugger all leg room even for a small person like me, and only an empty space at one end of the carriage for luggage whereas IÉ provides a separate rack with two or three separate racks and even walls to prevent baggage falling over. The London-Holyhead train* was practically third world compared to any IÉ service I've been on.

The differences between the Cork and Westport prices are - I assume, not being an IÉ employee - down to simple supply and demand. However, both are far cheaper than their equivalent fares in England. This was a point I specifically challenged you on, and yet you ignored it.


* Technically it was the London-Crewe train, because there we had to wait for a connecting train which promtly split in two on arrival - one end heading to Birmingham, one to Holyhead - to everyone's confusion, including the porters.

On train fares- in the UK they can be outrageous, but if you book in advance you can get them very cheap. For example on a recent holiday my wife, daughter and I were able to travel Edinburgh-Nottingham, Nottingham-London, London-Portsmouth (return) and London-Gatwick for around £120 all in. Admittedly most were not at peak times. The Irish train prices may tend to be somewhat lower (but still mental), but I don't think the ability to make real savings is as consistently available.

Gotta say though that I have usually found IE to be pretty crap.

I think Irish Rail introduced cheaper fares for early booking on intercity routes over the summer (from €10 intercity I think)

On Greystones fares, there's also a large, free park and ride available for the station - parking in Bray is a nightmare (plus in the mornings you have to get through the traffic to the station), last few times during the week I've ended up paying a fiver to park in the Carlisle, so if you drive that pretty much evens things up on that front imo. As well as the work that Stu mentions.

I wouldn't say Irish Rail is perfect. Much like the question of RTE, the real point is whether it would be better privatised. The evidence I would strongly argue suggests otherwise. The examples that are normally held up are nationalised, unionised public transport systems.

I've never understood Cork-Dublin tbh, the prices have always been loony-toons. I'd guess at this stage there's a natural bias caused by pure begrudgery. :)

Don't understand the details posted above though. You could pay €72 return, but you could also pay €40 on several trains. Plus the distances seem to be about the same, and the train times take about the same.

(For the record, I wouldn't travel to Dublin by rail, because it's now faster and cheaper to bring my own transport with me. And because of the aforementioned begrudgery. I might change my mind if we had a proper urban transport system though. No matter who operates it, we need to get that sorted sharpish.)

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Don't understand the details posted above though. You could pay E72 return, but you could also pay E40 on several trains. Plus the distances seem to be about the same, and the train times take about the same.

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Not sure I know what you mean here?

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Originally Posted by Macy

I think Irish Rail introduced cheaper fares for early booking on intercity routes over the summer (from €10 intercity I think)

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Yeah but not from out of Dublin.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Yeah but not from out of Dublin.

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Yes you can - I was looking at Dublin - Longford prices earlier! Actually, just checked it again for the whole way to Sligo and I'm getting €10 fare on several trains.

Edit - just tried the same day on Dublin - Cork and getting a €10 adult fare, and most of them are €20 tops. I'm sure the cheap tickets on Fridays and Sundays are the first to go though (same as Airline or any other similar travel ticket sales)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Not sure I know what you mean here?

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Responding to mypost's comments stu, not yours.

TBH I can't really comment on Irish Rail, I don't use it and probably won't. I simply obeject to privatisation on naturally monopolistic services in general. These services should be run by the state in any sensible society, at a loss if necessary. It's a necessary evil; more so now that peak oil is here (or around the corner if you're a skeptic). We need to get more people travelling together.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Yes you can - I was looking at Dublin - Longford prices earlier! Actually, just checked it again for the whole way to Sligo and I'm getting €10 fare on several trains.

Edit - just tried the same day on Dublin - Cork and getting a €10 adult fare, and most of them are €20 tops. I'm sure the cheap tickets on Fridays and Sundays are the first to go though (same as Airline or any other similar travel ticket sales)

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Ok, maybe the weekend its different?

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

Ok, maybe the weekend its different?

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I'm not sure what you mean - It was a Saturday I was looking at, didn't check during the week. I would say the peak hours go first, weekend or during the working week.

Sister in law travels by train to Cork practically every weekend. She books well in advance and reckons she hasn’t spent more than €40 return (and often a fair bit less). Gets into Dublin about 8.30am so perhaps she’s taking a very off peak train

Last time I was I (unexpectedly) had to take the train I nearly died when I saw the ticket prices from the machines. Logged onto one of the terminals and bought my tickets on the web for a fraction of the price.

I caught the tail end of Prime Time last night who had Colm McCarthy, Billy Kelliher and Noonan on. They had commentry from some geezer from Brussels. The foreign guy gave an honest assesment of how Ireland is being perceived internationally these last two weeks in plain simple language. I think it actually helped that although is English was perfect he used words of one syllable!

Anyway, Ireland is simply going to have to default on some of the debt as the citizens alone cannot bear the losses. It's inevitable.
Help will be required from the EU and that Irelands EU colleagues would assist as the consequances of not helping us out would be worse for the Euro.
10 years of bleeding was how he put it.
As to the reasons we are in the mess, it was peddled out that the cabinate was let down by the Neary with duff information, by the central bank and of course by the boards of the banks. Daniel from Brussels basically implied that because Northern Rock, Bear Sterns and Lehemans had gone whallop, to imply we didn't see things as bad as it turned out was a cop out.

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Originally Posted by Fr Damo

IAs to the reasons we are in the mess, it was peddled out that the cabinate was let down by the Neary with duff information, by the central bank and of course by the boards of the banks.

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McCarthy is hardly politically independent, and I think it showed in his initial comments especially.

That was my initial thouht too. Plus the hand on the chin and lack of personality made me think of Biffo!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...rd_to_pun.html

Good balanced article from probably the best business journalist over the last 2 years IMO. Rock and a hard place.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereport...rd_to_pun.html

Good balanced article from probably the best business journalist over the last 2 years IMO. Rock and a hard place.

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Interesting article, although I would've thought it was only Anglo bondholders that would be taking some hit (not total default), rather than the total banking bondholders? To me, the NAMA section again highlights why we should've nationalised the systemically important banks before getting into taking assets off the books.

Last nights Prime Time shows that we should take anything Lenihan says with a pinch of salt - I'd be very surprised if the Markets don't take a similar view of whatever the Government produce on "final" Anglo recapitalisation.

Comical that Lenihan and that total douche Sutherland would think that calling the bondholders what they are would affect their holdings. These people are binary beings, they see dollar signs or they don't, period. That's why we are where we are.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Comical that Lenihan and that total douche Sutherland would think that calling the bondholders what they are would affect their holdings. These people are binary beings, they see dollat signs or they don't, period. That's why we are where we are.

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By "these people", you mean arch capitalists and laissez faire "the market is always right types" across the globe?

I'd agree with that, if thats what you mean.

But in that case you'd logically question our decision to join the EU and more generally to reduce trade barriers and tarriffs in the post-Dev era and generally set ourselves up as one of the most open economy's in the world.

My point is that we can't like the good bits of capitalism and then dislike the bad bits.

Yes, that's what I meant. Sutherland and his ilk have zero understanding of people and society, and that remains an element of capitalism, no matter how distasteful it is to them. And yes, you can like the good bits and dislike the bads bits. I love making money, but I also love redistributing it, when I can.

Are you seriously suggesting that we have to choose between capitalism or socialism, that there's no middle ground? Because there isn't anything but the middle ground in Ireland. It's not a middle ground I like, but it's better than alternatives we've seen in the past, in locations I can't mention for fear of invoking a certain law.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

Yes, that's what I meant. Sutherland and his ilk have zero understanding of people and society, and that remains an element of capitalism, no matter how distasteful it is to them. And yes, you can like the good bits and dislike the bads bits. I love making money, but I also love redistributing it, when I can.

Are you seriously suggesting that we have to choose between capitalism or socialism, that there's no middle ground? Because there isn't anything but the middle ground in Ireland. It's not a middle ground I like, but it's better than alternatives we've seen in the past, in locations I can't mention for fear of invoking a certain law.

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No, not at all.

Capitalism, as it is currently constituted, is IMO, broken, and badly broken at that (in the same way that communism was proven by practice to be broken).

I find it hard to look beyond the Scandinavian countries as the best possible economic model that is in place at the minute, but there seems to be a fairly high and growing level of dissatisfaction there with the high tax-high service approach, and the high suicide levels, whilst not drawing a conclusion, can't be ignored.

There's a desperate need, again IMO, for some genuine global financial and economic leadership that is in the common-good and in particular a curb on pure vulture type-speculation. This needs to be balanced against the need to foster entrepreneurialism.

On a purely Irish level, I genuinely thought the Your Country Your Call thing was one of the few good things to come out in the last few years as we have become a hugely negative people.

For similar reasons I actually applaud the guy who drove the lorry into Leinster House, as at least he got up off his arse and did something.

Scandanavia is just another example of the cyclical nature of humanity when you get right down to it*. We can't settle. We lean to the left, get restless, move to the middle, then wander back over to the right again. If there's was some light at the end of the tunnel then I could live with it, but it's like a bloody perpetual motion machine, there doesn't seem to be any end to it.

The Your Country Your Call concept was excellent in theory. It was perfectly Oirish in practice. Jobs for the boys, as ever.


* AFAIN the suicide rate has as much to do with it's geographic position than anything else. The nasty and generally unjustified growth in immigrant hatred is far more worrying.