That's okay then :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Its a private position he holds as director of elections for FF. Nothing to do with his portfolio as a Minister, about as relevant as him being the captain of the local golf club.
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That's okay then :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Its a private position he holds as director of elections for FF. Nothing to do with his portfolio as a Minister, about as relevant as him being the captain of the local golf club.
"Now here's another fact for you to ponder: Martin Cullen, the Minister responsible for rolling out this system, is Fianna Fáil's Director of Elections".
Waheeyyyyy! An overall majority!
With respect Soc, that's a ridiculous statement. Although local golf clubs are notoriously political, the future of the country doesn't rest upon what "our jack said about their maureen". We're talking about the foundation of our democracy. His job as director of elections is to deliver as many votes to Fianna Fáil as possible, and here's a mechanism that could be used to that end. The conflict of interest is enormous.
adam
Anyone can get 15 signatures. Go out on the street and ask people if you're that badly stuck. The 15 signatures requirement is there to stop people sticking their name down for the craic of it.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
And what if I wanted to stand and couldn't get the support? For example in the local elections you need 15 people from the area to nominate you.
I don't believe anyone should have a right not to vote. It's not fair that some e just leave it up to someone else to run the country. What if we all took that attitude? It's everyone's country, therefore we all have a responibility to help run it.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
What about the democratic right not to vote? And if you are to have compulsory voting, IMO a "None of the above" would be essential.
I do, aye. Should really be someone else, an independent body ideally.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
Having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system, and you don't see a potential conflict?
You still put your trust down to those who count it however. You have no way of knowing whether your vote has been properly counted.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
The old system is trustworthy because each vote can be gone over, and re-counts called if necessary. Basically repeating whats been said before, but every stage is checked and verified.
There is possibility for computer error, but, as is said for MS Access, GIGO.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
As for computer error - take it you don't use computer systems, and Access in particular, that often?
The North. But I'd be more than happy to see it introduced here (which undoubtly it will be at some stage).Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
btw As a matter of interest, do you have a vote here or in the North? If it's the North you're happy to argue the case for us to have this system, whilst you happily use the tried and trusted pen and paper...
I think it's a bit optimistic to expect people to be up in arms over a possible conflict of interest, in a country where endless revelations of actual corruption have failed to perturb the general public.Quote:
Originally posted by dahamsta
With respect Soc, that's a ridiculous statement. Although local golf clubs are notoriously political, the future of the country doesn't rest upon what "our jack said about their maureen". We're talking about the foundation of our democracy here for god's sake. His job as director of elections is to deliver as many votes to Fianna Fáil as possible, and here's a mechanism that could be used to that end. The conflict of interest is enormous.
re the poll:
any chance of a recount??????????:D
No problem, I'll just check the database.
There ya go. Sure and begorrah, the computer can't be wrong!Code:[abeecher@johnhoop abeecher]$ mysql -u root -p
Enter password:
Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g.
Your MySQL connection id is 301527 to server version: 3.23.58
Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer.
mysql> use footie;
Reading table information for completion of table and column names
You can turn off this feature to get a quicker startup with -A
Database changed
mysql> SELECT votes FROM poll WHERE pollid=264;
+---------+
| votes |
+---------+
| 0|||999 |
+---------+
1 row in set (0.00 sec)
adam
What a great day for democracy that would be.....Quote:
Originally posted by brendy_eire
Anyone can get 15 signatures. Go out on the street and ask people if you're that badly stuck. The 15 signatures requirement is there to stop people sticking their name down for the craic of it.
Of course you have the right not to vote. Voting is just expressing your opinion on who you want to run the country. If we all took the attitude of not voting, it would force the political parties to look at why people don't vote, rather than now where it's mainly in disadvantaged areas where the politicians couldn't give a fúck about....Quote:
Originally posted by brendy_eire
I don't believe anyone should have a right not to vote. It's not fair that some e just leave it up to someone else to run the country. What if we all took that attitude? It's everyone's country, therefore we all have a responibility to help run it.
Yes, with tallymen/women from all those standing looking over their shoulders, and the chance to go over every single vote over and over again if necessary.Quote:
Originally posted by brendy_eire
You still put your trust down to those who count it however. You have no way of knowing whether your vote has been properly counted.
And no way of checking manually, or plan if one does go wrongQuote:
Originally posted by brendy_eire
There is possibility for computer error, but, as is said for MS Access, GIGO
I doubt very much that it will be introduced in such a rushed manner, without necessary testing, and with no way of following a vote through the system...Quote:
Originally posted by brendy_eire
But I'd be more than happy to see it introduced here (which undoubtly it will be at some stage).
:DQuote:
Originally posted by dahamsta
No problem, I'll just check the database.
There ya go. Sure and begorrah, the computer can't be wrong!
adam
Quote:
Originally posted by dahamsta
No problem, I'll just check the database.
adam
what about putting in a real poll.
1 would you prefer electronic voting
2 would you prefer manual voting
3 dont care either way (maybe other options could be added).
1. would you prefer electronic voting with no ticker trailQuote:
1 would you prefer electronic voting
2 would you prefer manual voting
3 dont care either way (maybe other options could be added).
2. would you prefer a verified and completely tested electronic voting system with the ability for a ticker trail
3. would you prefer manual voting
4. dont care either way
That is a real poll. I'm the Foot.ie Minister for Environment and Local Government and I'm responsible for implementing polling across the Foot.ie website. I contracted this poll out to a third-party and they implemented it for me here on Foot.ie. I trust this third-party implicitly and I'm convinced that the poll was conducted fairly and impartially.
The system was fully tested by another third-party, who examined 1/3 of the source code and hardware that is now deprecated and will no longer be used. Furthermore, they will be asked to test the system again shortly, even though the system that will be used in the next poll will be completely different.
However, if you feel that the poll is incorrect in some way, please let me know and I'll be happy to do another recount.
It's Easier For Everyone!
(It's certainly easier for me!)
adam
wait for it,wait for it!!!!:D
People who campaign for the right to spoil a vot e are the same people who choose voter 'Don't Know' on polls. Nobody ever said elections were about voting for the person who represents you - its all about voting for the best person from the options presented. I might not like candidates A, B, C & D but maybe I would prefer candidate B instead of any of the others...
:rolleyes:
Sure if people don't like the electronic voting they can always vote against the govt as a protest ;)
Despite Cullen being the most pig ignorant dick in Government (can't believe he left the PD's tbh) and his opinions on donations, I don't necessarily think he's corrupt. However, having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system is ridiculous...
btw I'm sure Soc will stick up for you too...
Maybe they'll put a 'I hate FF and Cork, I should have the right to spoil my vote' button on it just for you Macy.Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
Despite Cullen being the most pig ignorant dick in Government (can't believe he left the PD's tbh) and his opinions on donations, I don't necessarily think he's corrupt. However, having the Director of Elections implementing a new voting system is ridiculous...
btw I'm sure Soc will stick up for you too...
Macy you should know how these things work.
Minister says he wants electronic voting. Civil Servants do all the planning, preparations etc. Minister comes back a few months later to smile with the pretty girls.
You boys give the impression that the minisiter sits there with the source code late at night laughing like Side Show Bob. Him being Director for Elections for FF is a private matter. Would it matter if he was gay and introducing sexual equality legislation?
The system works on the basis that the people elect the TDs who they believe will repersent their view in the programmes for Government. There has to be an element of trust in politics of else you'd just have anarachy.
Re: Software. Is there any way of safely testing software so?
It works both ways though:Quote:
Originally posted by SÓCcfc
Minister says he wants electronic voting. Civil Servants do all the planning, preparations etc. Minister comes back a few months later to smile with the pretty girls.
Minister says he wants electronic voting because he knows it can be manipulated, and manipulation cannot be proven because there is no independent audit trail.
I'm not suggesting that this is the case, simply that it's not simply the case of "the Minister says he wants electronic voting". The fact alone that a €90m project has been pushed through so quickly raises all sorts of questions.
You boys give the impression that the minisiter sits there with the source code late at night laughing like Side Show Bob.
Cullen wouldn't know source code if it came up and bit him on the arse, and no-one is suggesting anything of the sort. People are simply trying to demonstrate potential conflicts of interest. The issue here is the security of the system as a whole, which has not been proven. Sure there are worries that someone (and not just Fianna Fáil either, Nedap/Powervote is in an even more favourable position, as is Tony O'Reilly and his ilk) may try to manipulate elections, but the possibility of error is just as powerful.
Him being Director for Elections for FF is a private matter. Would it matter if he was gay and introducing sexual equality legislation?
If the legislation gave a massive tax break to homosexuals, even for very good reason, then yes it would. A conflict of interest is a conflict of interest, no matter how righteous the situation, and not being able to see that is blinkered. The conflict should be judged primarily on potential, and the potential here is enormous. He should have stood down as FF DE when he became the Minister.
The system works on the basis that the people elect the TDs who they believe will repersent their view in the programmes for Government. There has to be an element of trust in politics of else you'd just have anarachy.
Of course there has to be an element of trust, however dozens and dozens of technologists have come out against this. Not respecting their opinion is much akin to Liam Murphy's (???) comments about City fans a year or two ago, that they haven't a clue about football. Everyone came out in righteous indignation when that happened -- this is the same thing. Moreover, the only technologists that have come out for the system, the people that tested it, didn't actually test it fully.
Re: Software. Is there any way of safely testing software so?
Yes. But it takes more than a second of review per line of source code, you need to see /all/ of the source code, and you can't change the source code half way through. Moreover, you'd express concerns if the software was going to be run on a deprecated operating system, and you'll be a little bit worried if the data was going into a Microsoft Access database with only a password for security. All that's before we even get to the hardware...
I see a lot of people defending this, but I have yet to come across a valid argument in favour of the system technologically. People can yak about spolied votes and time-saving all they want, but when the security of the system is in doubt by people that truly /understand/ systems, it's time to sit back and take stock.
By the way, here's another one for you: Cullen and his cronies have been saying that there will be "significant savings in staff costs at counting stage", which is absolutely true. However when taken as a whole, the extra person required to operate the machines will result in an extra 2000 man-days being required to run an election.
adam
i trust the tek people before the advocates of the new system. and as we all know, computer crashes are often unrecoverable. that wud freak me out if my vote was lost
i wud prefer a bit of paper to punch a whole in and have them electronically read it. it wud be a good balance between the old and new ways. but also have a better system than in florida for spoiled votes
what wud be wrong with the machine givin a signal that it read the vote ok. if not then the person cud get a new votin paper
Up to 18 counties asked to add safeguards
Wednesday, February 18, 2004 Posted: 1629 GMT (12:29 AM HKT)
SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- Two weeks before California's presidential primary, a group alleging widespread security holes in electronic voting machines has asked a judge to make counties install new safeguards.
linkey
Their machines are online and therefore it's possible to dial into them. The machines in Ireland are stand-alone.Quote:
Originally posted by John83
Two weeks before California's presidential primary, a group alleging widespread security holes in electronic voting machines
It is possible to have a receipt printer attached which could facilitate the paper trail that most people agree is necessary.
The Minister seems to be against this...Quote:
Originally posted by Peadar
It is possible to have a receipt printer attached which could facilitate the paper trail .
"The Department of the Environment has ruled out the possibility of the Government altering its electronic voting plans to provide a paper record of every vote cast."
Full story BreakingNews.ie
Does this link help at all??
Black Box Voting
Yeah thats my main concern with it alright. Suppose just bring in a jug of water and pour it in the machine- that should spoil the ****in thing :)Quote:
Originally posted by Macy
My biggest problem is that there is no secret way of spoiling your paper. Add a "None of the Above" option then I'll generally be happy.
just don't vote...thats a nice easy way...or as a newspaper cartoon said at the weekend , vote with your feet and kick the sh*t out of the voting machine
Read in the Ireland on Sunday that Microsoft (makers of the system) reckon it won't hold up under the volume of votes to be cast. On the other hand, it will end the week long counts/recounts, which can only be a good thing.
if a cash register can process 100,000 plus in sales in a day why can't one of these machines do their job correctly ????
its not bloody rocket science, its a record of what button i pressed ????
Ah, but that's €100k in sales, not 100k seperate transactions. Apparently, Microsoft reckon that their database package wasn't meant to be used in such fashion.Quote:
Originally posted by max power
if a cash register can process 100,000 plus in sales in a day why can't one of these machines do their job correctly ????
what package is used in france/germany to process 60/70 million votes and has anyone been to germany to overlook their system in action ???
every polling station knows the maxium number of people that will be voting there, then should we not not know the maxium number of people that will be using the machine ???
It's not entirely clear which posts you're replying to max power. Or are you just ranting in general? You'll need to be more specific about the thread if you want people to address your comments.
adam
He's on my ignore list, so it doesn't matter how specific he is to the point. :)Quote:
Originally posted by dahamsta
It's not entirely clear which posts you're replying to max power. Or are you just ranting in general? You'll need to be more specific about the thread if you want people to address your comments.
if i'm on johns ignore list how ddi he reply to a post i did in another thread, is that sheep, pig no no its bullsh*t i smell..
adam i was just wondering from what i heard on the news about germany/france doing in relation to e voting, i was not replying to any post in general.....
on the machine thing i was stating that each polling station has a list of voters and know the maxium amount of voters that will turn up, therefore it should be known the maxium number of votes a machine will have to process ??? not near 3,000,000....a couple of thousand i'd say ?????
AFAIK the only MS s/w used is the Access Database.
Access is fine for the local butchers stock keeping ot whatever but I just don't trust 15 year old dutch s/w than hasn't dumped Access & moved with the times.
if i'm on johns ignore list how ddi he reply to a post i did in another thread, is that sheep, pig no no its bullsh*t i smell..
Don't get dragged into flame wars please. If you don't want to talk to each other, don't talk to each other. Adulthood is a wonderful thing.
adam i was just wondering from what i heard on the news about germany/france doing in relation to e voting, i was not replying to any post in general.....
What were you wondering? If they're using Nedap/Powervote is it? Who cares? We're talking about the Irish system, which is substantially different to any other system because of our PR-STV voting system (the code for which was written not in Holland, but in the UK).
on the machine thing i was stating that each polling station has a list of voters and know the maxium amount of voters that will turn up, therefore it should be known the maxium number of votes a machine will have to process ??? not near 3,000,000....a couple of thousand i'd say ?????
The reason I don't get this one is that there doesn't seem to be a point. Are you trying to say extra votes will prove that the voting machines are working? (I'm not being smart, I just don't get you.)
adam
The operating system on the machines is Windows 98.Quote:
Originally posted by pete
AFAIK the only MS s/w used is the Access Database.
adam
Does this system differ greatly from the one used in the last election in Dublin and Meath?
Dont remember hearing any problems with that one, well at least not technicial problems. They thought that the prodecure took away the excitment and stuff but still cant remeber any big fuss about it?
It's not useless Conor. At its most basic, it's a security mechanism for democracy. If anything should be secure, it's the ballot. Without VVAT, the ballot is simply not secure.
adam
LOL, & there was me thinking having Access bad enough on its own.Quote:
Originally posted by dahamsta
The operating system on the machines is Windows 98.
adam
If the people "organising" this e-vote thing idiotic enough to use win 98 (dear god why???) as opposed to the so much more reliable win 2000 (not all MS products sh!te) then how can anyone trsut they know what they doing....
:D I was wondering when someone would do that.
Simple, I clicked on the "view post anyway" (or whatever it's actually called) button.Quote:
Originally posted by dahamsta
if i'm on johns ignore list how ddi he reply to a post i did in another thread, is that sheep, pig no no its bullsh*t i smell..
Don't get dragged into flame wars please. If you don't want to talk to each other, don't talk to each other. Adulthood is a wonderful thing.
None intended Adam. Out of sight, out of mind.
I have to back up the Windows 98 point - wtf are they doing? Even 95 would be better. I'm going to get disenfranchised when the bloody machine crashes on polling day.:(
You do not necessarily have to count all the VVAT paper ballots - you only have to compare them to the electronic record, one machine at a time (except that when there are very few votes cast on some machines, the votes from a few machines should be combined, for privacy reasons).Quote:
Originally posted by Conor74
Checking a paper trail will mean, because of the STV system, that we NEVER get an accurate number of votes as, because of the random selection of votes in the transfer process, it is unlikely that the paper system will choose exactly the same votes as the machine.
See http://evoting.jlambe.com/recommend/vvat.html.
(Here, I suggest procedures for conducting this comparison).
Since you would only be comparing a few hundred votes at a time, it is easy to get it right, and if a mistake is made in comparing them, you check them again until either they are found to match or it is clear that they do not match - after rechecking, you only have an unexplained discrepancy if the votes were actually recorded incorrectly.
Once the paper ballots have been compared to the electronic record, anyone could use count the published electronic list of votes themselves (using free open-source software, for example).
The solution to the random selection (for transfer of surplus) problem is simple: don't use random selection.
Random selection was used only because using pure PR-STV (which involves transferring fractions of votes, instead of randomly selecting votes) is complicated to do manually.
Using random selection makes no sense in an electronic system and the government intend to use pure PR-STV in the electronic system at a later stage anyway.