Electronic Voting

**Peadar** · 09/02/2004, 9:18 AM

I'm sick of the opposition parties going against everything just for the sake of it. Electronic Voting is clearly the way forward but Labour and other muppets are up in arms over it.
It has always bothered me that people counted the ballot papers by hand. There was large scope for error and fraud here. Computers are far more reliable than people and from what I've read about the system being rolled out in Ireland, security will be as strict as possible. The counting PC's will be stand-alone and security hardened. A stand alone PC isn't connected to a network and therefore can't be hacked remotely.
I think this is a positive step forward for the democratic process in this country. Now all we need is someone decent to vote for.

**tiktok** · 09/02/2004, 9:30 AM

There won't be any counts anymore, the results will appear automatically, it's going to take a lot of the excitement out of the process, and there will be no possibility of recounts.

it's all going to be so boring.

and people will (without reason most likely) not trust the results especially when they're close.

**max power** · 09/02/2004, 9:39 AM

if the people who upgrade the e mail for certain gov depts are involved with the electronic voting it will be some fun !!!!

as peader stand alone pc is hard to hack but it can crash very easily....

good idea, but try and tell that to an 80 year old living in the back end if leitrim !!!

**the 12 th man** · 09/02/2004, 9:41 AM

novelty value might bring out voters that normally dont give a monkeys.on the minus side can see delays on the polling days with the likes of the elderly having trouble trying to operate it.

**Peadar** · 09/02/2004, 9:54 AM

Originally posted by the 12 th man
see delays on the polling days with the likes of the elderly having trouble trying to operate it.

Nice try 12th man but they said the elderly folk in Ireland would struggle with the introduction of �uro and that certainly wasn't the case.
It's all very straight forward and certainly no more complicated than the traditional method.
Look here for a demo.

Electronic voting was first used at the general election in May 2002 in the constituencies of Meath, Dublin North and Dublin West. Electronic voting was rolled out to seven constituencies at the Nice referendum in October 2002 - Meath, Dublin North and Dublin West, Dublin Mid West, Dublin South West, Dublin South and Dun Laoghaire.

An exit poll of voters who used the electronic system at the 2002 general election showed that 96% of voters surveyed found the voting machine easy to use.

Give the people of Ireland a bit more credit, everyone can use this system.

Originally posted by max power
as peader stand alone pc is hard to hack but it can crash very easily...

That is not true in my experience.
If anything, PC's hang and sometimes crash when they drop network connections while a network dependant resource is running. A PC with a good build and the required spec should not crash during normal use. Most people who have problems with their home PC's are using incorrect drivers or have deleted .dll files when removing a program.

**the 12 th man** · 09/02/2004, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by Peadar
Nice try 12th man but they said the elderly folk in Ireland would struggle with the introduction of �uro and that certainly wasn't the case.
.

on the contrary im not knocking the system at all,i think it is a good idea,i just had visions of a lot of our senior citizens (you know the old bingo crowd) giving out jo bollo* about having to press buttons instead of putting their x marks the spot.

**S�C** · 09/02/2004, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by tiktok
There won't be any counts anymore, the results will appear automatically, it's going to take a lot of the excitement out of the process, and there will be no possibility of recounts.

it's all going to be so boring.

AFAIK they are looking into giving a first count, then 5 minutes later a second count, 5 mins a 3rd count etc.

If they didnt election night would be boring. We would get sights like Jackie Healy-Rae at the last election when it look for a while like he was going to lose his seat so he had a drink or two to comfort himself...but had to sober up when they realised he'd gotten a large chunk of someone's transfers. Oh the fun

**Macy** · 09/02/2004, 10:14 AM

My biggest problem is that there is no secret way of spoiling your paper. Add a "None of the Above" option then I'll generally be happy.

However, IMO questions remain about how the secruity is to be managed at all, and related to this the storage of the machines between elections. (Which is what the opposition party's are complaining about, rather the system per se.)

Also, I'm not comfortable with the FF Director of Elections being in charge of the introduction of the system. Not suggesting anything untoward, but surely he should be taking one or other role, rather leaving himself open to a potential conflict of interests and/or a chance to manipulate the results.

**brendy_�ire** · 09/02/2004, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Macy
My biggest problem is that there is no secret way of spoiling your paper. Add a "None of the Above" option then I'll generally be happy.

I'm so sick of hearing that. You have no constitutional right to spoil your vote! If you think that everyone up for election is so ****e, put yourself up and see how ye do.

**dahamsta** · 09/02/2004, 10:37 AM

Peadar,

There are dozens of arguments against Nedap/Powervote's system, but I'll break it down to just one, simple example. I need to make a few factual statements before I do -- you don't need to take my word for it that they're factual, they're easily checked by contacting the Department of the Environment and NASA.

The software that will be used in the local and European elections will not be the same as the software used previously.
The software will be delivered shortly before the elections, I believe a month before, which does not give enough time for testing.
Mission-critical software developers like NASA expect about 60 faults in a project the size of Nedap/Powervote's system.

So anyway, Sally walks up to the machine, gives Perry her first preference, and hits the Cast Vote button. Unfortunately though, due to a tiny error in the vote logging software, Perry's first preference is switched with Tony - who Sally hates - and Tony gets not only his own votes, but Perry's too. Tony gets in in the first round. Sally is not amused, so she calls for a recount.

This is where it get interesting. Every time the recount button is pressed, the same result comes up -- Perry gets nul poin, Tony gets the seat. Sally can't understand this because she knows that she herself voted for Perry, so she pushes past and hits the button herself. Still nothing, nada, null, zip, zero. Not a sausage.

Want to know why? I already told you: Because the vote was logged for Tony. As far as the machine is concerned, Tony got the votes and Perry got none. You can hit recount as many times as you want, it'll still come up with the same answer because it's counting the same errors. You can't argue with it or reason with it, it's a machine.

In this imaginary example, the problem was caused by a simple error. There was no foul-play at work, it was just a slip-up where a coder (for example) accidentally used OR instead of AND in his code. Now imagine that the coder was paid to do it. By the people that paid for the system. With your money.

Now here's another fact for you to ponder: Martin Cullen, the Minister responsible for rolling out this system, is Fianna F�il's Director of Elections.

adam

**S�C** · 09/02/2004, 10:50 AM

Just though of something non-technicial but I assume its too obvious a plot and there is some way around it but here goes;

What if I get my hands on the biggest most powerful magnet that I can carry around. Put it in a bag and lean the bag up against the voting computer when I go to vote. Would that not destroy/damage any data stored on the hard drive?

**Macy** · 09/02/2004, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by brendy_eire
I'm so sick of hearing that. You have no constitutional right to spoil your vote! If you think that everyone up for election is so ****e, put yourself up and see how ye do.

It's a constitutional right to a secret ballot. What you did with your ballott paper was then up to you, including spoiling your paper. The only way to do this under the electronic voting is to get someone to adjust the machine so that no vote is registered - so it's not a secret ballot anymore.

I probably won't spoil my paper (have in the past when I was in England, in several elections), but people have the right to secret ballot and to spoil their paper if they so wish.

**brendy_�ire** · 09/02/2004, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by Macy
people have the right...to spoil their paper if they so wish.

No you don't. Yes, you do have a right to a secret ballot, but not to spoil your vote.

**Peadar** · 09/02/2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by dahamsta
Now here's another fact for you to ponder: Martin Cullen, the Minister responsible for rolling out this system, is Fianna F�il's Director of Elections.

I get the impression from some of you that you genuinely believe the system in place at the moment isn't open to manipulation or corruption. With regard to testing the software, my company has a division dedicated to testing software so I'm fairly familiar with how code is tested.
Software is generally tested extensively before RTM. One month would be sufficient time for end user testing. The code behind the actual voting process should be relatively straight forward. The only changes being made to it before the election date should be the candidates names. Hence the short release time before the polls open. This system has been used with success before, that is a fact for you Adam.

**pete** · 09/02/2004, 11:02 AM

Given the States record in introducing almost anything new I don't have confidence in their abilities not to feck this one up.

From what i've heard biggest problems with system to be introduced are:
- no paper trail i.e. no record of what was entered into the system. If pooter fecks up how will we ever know? Means cannot really have a recount anymore so is it constitutional?
- uses MS Access

for its Database which seems fairly dubious choice but maybe not when hear based on 15 year old s/w.

I think the electronic voting is a waste for the euro elections where counting should be relatively quick as only a few candidates & constituencies.

Manual vote counting is checked my the party tally men so means widespread fraud almost impossible.

**S�C** · 09/02/2004, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Macy

I probably won't spoil my paper (have in the past when I was in England, in several elections), but people have the right to secret ballot and to spoil their paper if they so wish.

Where in Irish Law do you have the right to spoil your vote? You cant just say it runs from having a secret ballot that you can spoil your vote.

Spoilt votes cost time and money. I think the Government could easy defend any case taken on grounds of public policy.
There are not absolute rights in Irish law. Every right you have comes with exceptions.

**Macy** · 09/02/2004, 11:09 AM

Surely on this super duper new system it wouldn't cost time or money to have a "None of the Above" option. The only reason they won't is because they are scared of the results....

It's either a secret ballot or it's not. Under this system it's not. It's no business of anyone else what choice a voter makes.

**Peadar** · 09/02/2004, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by S�Ccfc
What if I get my hands on the biggest most powerful magnet that I can carry around. Put it in a bag and lean the bag up against the voting computer when I go to vote. Would that not destroy/damage any data stored on the hard drive?

Not likely since you'd have to actually get the hard drive within the magnetic field of the magnet. You're talking about a pretty powerful magnet.
If you were successful the fault would show up immediately and you'd be easily traced as the culprit.

Originally posted by Macy
Surely on this super duper new system it wouldn't cost time or money to have a "None of the Above" option.

It should be as easy to implement as adding a candidate in the first place. In theory I don't see any problem with such a button.

**the 12 th man** · 09/02/2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Peadar

It should be as easy to implement as adding a candidate in the first place. In theory I don't see any problem with such a button.

cant see the government doing anything at all to to encourage/help the spoiling of papers,so there is no way thats going to happen.