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Actually your right - McDowells comments were far more dangerous, offensive and did more damage to the immigrant community than Lenihan's ever could. Lenihan made a racist comment, McDowell was inflaming racial hatred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie
So long as the Irish does not go down the road of the Ku Klux Klan. I'm sure that the BNP and Combat 18 would have been monitoring these developments very closely. What odds would you give on Fianna Fail or the other parties bringing in apartheid style legislation in the future? Bit strange to be encouraged to be giving money to the "black babies" at national school and then booting them out of the country some twenty years later.
I've heard use of the word "liberal" three times on RTE lately. Liberal the way neocons use it in America.
Now, as someone who remembers the late fifties, 60s, 70s and even 80s, it took along hard fight to get Ireland into the 20th Century, let alone the 21st. I remember vividly those grey days of utter stagnatation, emigration, unemployment, pulpit power, State power etc etc etc and I don't want to go back there again.
OK OK, the country still has huge social and economic problems but, folks, take it from me, it's fcuking much nicer to live in Ireland now for a lot of us, not all of course.
AND, just because we have come out of those dark days, there is no certainty that the right wing agenda might not again have some mass appeal. That's what scares me - y'know cycles and such.
I mean, look at the US today after the 60s and 70s
With the likes of Justin Barrett and others around, I hope we never let our guard slip. Barrett might be a squeaky voiced,little upstart but many people laughed when Shrub went for election in 2000.
To paraphrase Metallica : Let's keep both eyes open..............
To add:
Here's what a Sunday was like in Beeslow in the late 50s when I was a young kid.
A walk down Brackernagh ( you drive through it en route to Galway) past Portiuncula Hospital witnessed fcuk all street lights, fcuk all traffic, middle aged people who looked 70 from illhealth and no proper health service, most clothes grey or black, grey overcast weather, the shop across from Portiuncula had the Press, Indo, Irelands Own, Beano, Dandy, Victor (if you were lucky), poor choice of food items, joyless groups of people.
At home on Saturday night you had one Irish radio station and the big musical item was Sean O'Murchu's Cheileidh House - how I hated that programme with its opening PLONK PLONK of the piano before some diddley eye sh"te for the next hour.
I vividly remember that Sunday above - I was 5 or 6 at the time and it haunts me.
Most of Ireland was the same or worse than Beeslow.
There are quite a few who would love an innocent Ireland like that again, with perhaps a few modcoms. Don't underestimate those fcukers - the Yanks made the same mistake.
Well said that man.
Just to add to above regarding to my point on US regression to Medieval times.
Did anyone see Chain Reaction on RTE Thursday night and see the Condom Train segment when contraceptives were unavailable to the public.
Another part of dear old Ireland I mentioned above.
Over to present day USA.
A number of pharmacists in Kansas etc are refusing to give the Pill or any other form of contraception to customers, EVEN where they receive a doctor's prescription. Why? It's against their religious principles. They're even going to court to defend it.
Ireland 1970s and before. USA Today.
See what I meant above how easy modernisation can be rolled back.
Today we in Ireland can look back in bemusement at our past. Our past is being re-enacted in parts of America in 2005.
Unreal. Truly unreal.
Whether you like it or not the USA is probably the the most liberal country in the world. There is an overwhelming belief in Freedom including the freedom of religous belief the freedom of people to travel and the freedom to make money and trade with other nations.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhamish
There is also a huge belief in little government. That is the government does not regulate and legislate in every area of personal and business life.
If we are to compare Ireland and the EU generally to the USA in terms of a liberal society and the regulation of society then we do not even compare.
We have beauraucracy coming out of ears here. Every little aspect of our lives is governed by some sort of nonsense regulation or directive. In the USA personal responsiblity is the key.
Over here some bearaucrat in Brussels or Strasbourg, whichever they are in this week, sends out a directive to govern another aspect of our lives. These so called liberals are nothing but "reformed" commies and lefties who haven't fully comphrehended that the Berlin wall came down because of the utter failure of societies that attempt to dictate to the populace how they should live their lives.
The dictatorship of the proletariat has always been their mantra and always will be. That is us, the little citizen, needs to be told how to live our lives and in what manner.
I am far more concerned about the direction Ireland is taking, a move towards the so called Liberal Socialist agenda.
What gave this country it's recent wealth was the way we embraced free market economics , low tax low spend, more oppurtunity etc. It gave me the chance to come back to this country. Never lose sight of the fact that it was the unions, the big government, big public spend (mainly to keep the public sector employees maintain their unproductive work practices going) didn't work and won't work.
As for racism etc never lose sight of the fact that a lot of racism has/is driven by people who do not want foreigners taking their jobs or driving down the cost of labour in an economy with full employment. Most so called right wing economists/politicians would support the use and actually encourage foreign labour to come into the country and oppose racism. It is in business interests that a large labour pool is available. Socialism/Communism and even elements within the trade union movement have a very poor record when it comes to racism.
What Liberal Socialist agenda? Would this be Bertie the socialist your talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
Personally, the anti-intellectualism of the religeous right is more worrying from both a freedom of the individual and long term-economic point of view. You could argue that waht really made America great was the freedom people had to be different and think differently. I have a strong interest in palaeontology and as such I'm well aware of what the religious fundamentalists are upto in the schools in America, the UK and probably here in the near future. They want sheep, not free-thinking individuals and I hate to say it, but I think they will win the fight :(
:D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
Good God!
Somebody else has bought the McDowell talking doll.....:D
Cant agree with that Rebs.Quote:
If we are to compare Ireland and the EU generally to the USA in terms of a liberal society and the regulation of society then we do not even compare.
We have beauraucracy coming out of ears here. Every little aspect of our lives is governed by some sort of nonsense regulation or directive. In the USA personal responsiblity is the key
Part of the problem with this country is that we've been so under regulated for so long that when any measures are brought in to try and tidy up or buck the place up a bit people start howling about beaurcracy.
Traditionally we've been allowed **** and **** wherever we like, dump where we want to, build whatever we want wherever we want and fcuk the consequences, drive home ****ed as a fart in an unroadworthy banger and sure aren't we all doing it.
Where we did have regulations we used them to institutionalise intolerance of those who didn't doff their caps to pulpit power. Hence you couldn't buy a johnny from a vending machine in this country until 1990.
I suppose thats the great thing about a free society the ability to exchange opinions!
Just don't forget that even greater is the ability to tolerate those with different opinions.
All I know is that the earlier choices of the Irish government to open up and dergulate and change the taxation bands low corporation tax lower public spending etc resulted in more oppurtunities for Irish people to get jobs here allow the likes of myself return from abroad and create a far better society than we have ever experienced before. As for the religous right I don't really understand where they came into this argument and I can gurantee you after what this country experienced with their repressive influence they will never be allowed hold sway again.
As for the planning laws in this country don't get me started they are the most regulated load of nonsense anywhere in the world. This nonsense that it's easy to get planning is just that nonsense. Any medium to large development takes at least 2 years to get through planning adding enormously to costs etc.
Anyway I'll call it quits now as this argument could clearly go on forever. There is nothing worse I suppose than a reformed socialist!!
Whats that old saying "if you are not a socialist when you are 20 you haven't a heart, if you are not a capitalist by 30 then you haven't a brain!"
;)
Try:Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
or:Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhamish
Take a look at the people in America who bang on and on about Liberal agendas and you will see where the religious right come into the argument ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhamish
...and so it should do if it's to be scrutinised appropriatley. these things should be done properly -not quickly -as properly and quickly are often mutually exclusive.Quote:
Originally Posted by rebs23
But that's why we have Dick Roche as environment minister -because of his track record on environmental issues and his selfless, unyielding, impervious resistance to constituency pressure
[QUOTE=rebs23]Whether you like it or not the USA is probably the the most liberal country in the world. There is an overwhelming belief in Freedom
If you're going to parrott Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, the Daily Telegraph, Sun, Daily Mail at least give a listen to Air America and read The Guardian - you'll get both ends of the spectrum there before you make that judgement. I do, and can claim to at least TRY to see both sides of the story.
"probably the most liberal country in the world...eh? Yeh, compared to Cuba, Egypt, Pakistan etc No arguments there BUT
TELL THAT to the US Muslims citizens who are subject to constant...er..."scrutiny", by the FBI etc - Patriot Act.
TELL THAT to those US ciotizens who have their houses raided, possessions turned over and taken, bank accounts scrutinised by the FBI without judicial order AND if they complain publicly or even through their lawyers, are subject to arrest and imprisonment. - Patriot Act
TELL THAT to people who can have their fcuking library books checked (without their knowledge or consent) by the FBI to see if they have terrorist sympathies - Patriot Act
TELL THAT to the Dixie Chicks who were banned by ClearChannel after criticising Dubya and where some Clear Channel stations organised public burnings of their records, CDs etc. They also lost a lot of concerts.
TELL THAT to Bon Jovi, Springsteen, John Fogerty, REM, Mellancamp, Streisand, George Lucas etc etc who were villified by Fox, CNN, MSNBC, Murdoch US papers, radio stations for having the temerity to support John Kerry - the so-called Elite Hollywood activists, out of touch with ordinary Americans etc etc BS
TELL THAT to the "activist judges" (quote Fox etc etc) who have/had the temerity to challenge new laws introduced by the neocons.
TELL THAT to the ex-CIA man who stated on ITN last Autumn that he feared that the US was in danger of becoming a pre-Fascist state. By the way, he was a Republican. Apologies, can't remember his name, so you'll have to take my word for the statement.
TELL THAT to the American Civil LIBERTIES Union who have been villified by the right wing media and in the Senate/House of Representatives as terrorist sympathisers, anti-American etc for challenging the neocons in the courts.
TELL THAT to the International Red Cross and Amnesty International who have been villified, in the past few days, by the above for QUOTING an FBI, repeat FBI, report which stated that the Koran WAS abused. I'm NOT referring to the Newsweek report, by the way, but the FBI report.
TELL THAT to the listeners of Sinclair Media who did a crude, lies strewn report on John Kerry last October and had to dilute it because loads of Americans withdrew their support. Sinclair is/was a financial backer of the Republicans/Bush
TELL THAT to the millions of us who watch MTV, VHI etc - owned by Viacom, a Bush financial backer who deliberately left songs off their playlists where any criticism, even unintentional, of Bush and co before last November's election was deemed "unpatriotic". One example, John Fogerty/Creedence's "Fortunate Son".
TELL THAT to the 30+ millions of US citizens who work two even three jobs a day to still exist below the poverty line and will never experience the American Dream and it's benefits. Some freedon that, eh? Read the Book "Nickle and Dimed", written during the Clinton years to see how the US underclass exists. It's even worse now under Bush. Send me a PM, I'll gladly send it on to you.
TELL THAT to the millions of Texans still suffering from the debts left by Bush when he was Governor - no "war on terror" excuse there. Some freedom there, eh?
TELL THAT to the schools who are fighting to even have evolution on the curriculm
TELL THAT to University Professors, Lawyers, Politicians, Judges, Media, Teachers, Cops, Soldiers, Sportspeople etc etc many of whom are subject to a constant witchhunt in US government and media for having anti-war opinions and in the case of Professors may even lose their jobs.
I have FORTY more examples.
By the way, Pharmacists who refuse to do their job and not sell johnnies etc should resign not impose their lunatic so called principles on the customer. Free market, innit??
By the way, if I was a US citizen and had the opportunity to state those views in America, I'd be villified publicly and have my personal life torn open, mannerisms rediculed (Dean Scream)
opinions, points of view debased, misquoted.
Yep, rebs23, that's what I call freedom. :(
Free Market Economics.
This is how my town Beeslow embraced it recently. One example of four.
Square D, hundreds from town hinterland and midlands worked there. Company not as healthy as in the eighties and nineties but still making a profit. Square D shut down circa two years ago and moved to Mexico. Wages in Mexico per month same as weekly wages here. Hey, labour costs, man, free market, tough $h!t.
Guess who was visiting Mexico the same time as Square D relocated? Bertie Aherne! Wonder how FF and the PDs do in East Galway next election? Then again, it's not FF, PDs or even FG's fault, is it? It's the free market. Well, who embraced the free market? Step forward FF, PD and FG.
Now, we can argue about the benefits and downside of the free market and some of your point regarding the market I'd be inclined to agree with but it takes on a whole new meaning when my friends and neighbours are driving taxis, emigrating, moving to other areas after settling down here. Friends shops closing down and so on. But, hey, that's the free market as I said to my friend Bruno (that's his nickname) as he taxied me to hospital this morning to the one big employer left here, Portiuncula Hospital. I won't repeat what he said.
Free Market? That also means sweatshops, Nike, Reebok, third world debt, millions in never ending destitution etc etc etc etc.
Finally, I can see your point of view, rebs23, regarding the benefits of some aspects of the free market which you've ably covered.. Let me ask you one question though. What are you going to do when/if (AND GOD FORBID) your company relocates to Gdansk, Beijing, Marrakesh and/or other exotic locations??
As for Unions? Yeah sure they've messed up in the past. The Unions have grasped the new realities of the free market economy these days because they've no choice really and are probably all the better for it. I'll let others educate me on that as I'm a little out touch. Better unions than say WallMart (currently fighting union recognition and better health plans) whose unfortunate employees have to congregate and sing the company song before they start their low paid jobs in a mega rich company. Sounds like North Korea that singing thing!!
I also experienced here in AT Cross the same BS nonsense. We were part of the Cross "Family". In 1978 I earned ABOUT 25 quid a week, had to work unpaid overtime (often many hours) while my equivalent in their Maryland HQ, Dinana de Florio, earned 25,000 dollars a year. They fcuked off to Egypt I think to cut labour costs. No chance of Dinina being shifted then- but look how much they'd have saved if Maryland had been relocated. It's happening now in the US bigtime while useless CEOs get mega millions even if they make their company go bust. The AT Cross "floor" had a union but staff were not allowed one.
As for all the anti-left slogans trotted out. "Dictatorship of the proletariot????? Those days are over, gone, finito so that arguement is irrelevant. I told you in above posts folks, the ultra right wingers are just waiting to get back in. Just read the commie bashing in that post. Communism was never a runner because their leaders never believed in it - see new book on Mao and it was a corrupt, badly organised system.
Example of New Zealand National Airlines - sold to private ownership. Failed. Fewer inflights - only the juicy ones, less revenue, tourism and so on for country. Government bought it back at multiples of sale price. Same could happen to Air Lingus. I have seen many in the airline industry shocked that we would sell Aer Lingus.
Tory, continued by New Labour, privatisation of UKs rail system. An utter calamity. You know the score there, also many deaths due to poorly trained and undermanned safety staff. Absolutely outrageous.
The Stagecoach Bus company who drove out local firms. Low wages meant poorer standards of drivers because cost cutting meant not only lower wages and longer hours. Another mess. Eg a bus trip from Carlisle to Cambridge took over seven hours, as an unfortunate passenger told me in 1999 at the Folk Festival there. Now the roads in England aren't THAT bad.
I really didn't like Ireland when I was a kid. You couldn't play soccer, you had to go to Mass, you earned fcuk all, you had no media worth mentioning, you
had brutal showbands covering international hits, the drink was $h!t and you couldn't get a ride if you're life depended on it. It was a dark, depressing time, young lads.
I hope rebs23 is right when he says we'll never go back there again. I'm not so sure at all.