We just aren't very good...
We just aren't very good...
I'd rather a few new players be blooded for the rest of the campaign and even players with great potential such as Hendrick get a tough lesson such as last night and come 4th in the group rather than coming 3rd in the group or qualifying if it means that we are going into wc2018 or 2020 a stronger team.
Scotland and Poland are average sides that are playing well. Unfortunately, the draw for wc2018 is probably going to be pretty gruesome, as we are almost certain to be 4th seeds and this group might seem pretty tame in comparison.
We can do little about the current footballing culture in this country and the lack of proper coaching of most of our young footballers that will make a big difference for the next 10-15 years, but now might be the time to start from scratch and hope that in the coming 18 months-24 months, fellas like Ian lawlor, Shane Duffy, Hendrick, Brady and Sheridan can mould themselves into a decent unit. Even bringing in fellas like alex o'hanlon or jack Byrne might give their careers a big lift. Mick did it in 96 and it made us a competitive unit after a tough 2 years or so. Ideally, Crowley and grealish too if they decide to switch from supporting us on twitter to officially declaring us.
Bringing in three players who've never played a senior game of football, and are at clubs where the opportunities for advancing to the first team are probably smallest, would be madness. Especially O'Hanlon who can't even hack it at U19 level right now. Pie in the sky stuff.
Bungle in the jungle.
It seems if you believe Ireland could play a slightly better & also more effective brand of football you are deemed to have an inflated expectation, I mean after all our players are completely average. Well so are Scotland's. The difference between Scotland & us Fri night was the Scots tried to construct their own chances through football. Let's be honest it wasn't Tika Taka just clever in possession at times with cool heads & a hell of a lot more confident than us. We have one game plan, lump it & get lucky.
England struggled with 442 with a far better collection of players than we have yet we persist with after being over run Tim & time again. Ireland do have some decent players, every bit as decent as the Scots. We are more than capable of stringing 4 or 5 passes together in the right system. Not Tika taka football just 4 or 5 measured passes from time to time, that is what people who criticise the team are looking for. More or less what Scotland did, work hard be competitive & hard to beat and every now & again keep a cool head & pass it.
Play 451 give us the chance to keep the ball, get the most out of our wingers & still be compact & difficult to beat. Turn the long hoofs into more than just a 50/50 chance. And dare I say it again just be more luke Scotland were, not world beaters, just much better in possession than us.
If it's about managing expectations, I expect us to be more like Scotland the football team than Scotland the rugby team.
It's taken the Scots two years to get to this point. Strachan didn't just come in and have them playing like this overnight. We've had four competitive matches and there has been an improvement in the style of football, regardless of what people, but it was clear that Scotland were a much better-drilled side than us and that's something that doesn't happen over the odd five-day training camp.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishbash
it was difficult to see any evidence of improvement Fri night, it was as bad as any time under Trap. I'm a massive O'Neill fan but judging on that game alone it's hard to see any difference, when push came to shove we went 442 & hoofed it and that's the reality. I really hope it changes to some degree by March & to be fair to MON that he gets his most important players fit & ready.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I doubt I can change your mind through arguing, but if you get the time I think you should think about watching a match from Trap (say Sweden at home) and then last night. The pace of yesterday's game was much higher, which will always lead to more mistakes, but the intent is clearly different from Ireland and I think when we managed to get fluid passages going it was a lot better than anything Trap came up with. It was 4-4-2 and it was more direct than the last three matches, but it was not just hoofing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishbash
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Ive watched the game 3 times, unfortunately, you might say! Yeah it was a fully competitive match I've no arguments about that, also I've no arguments that some of our more comfortable players on the ball wee missing in McCarthy, Wilson & Hoolahan. But I can recall only 2 passages where we passed with control & intent. I can't recall Ward making one positive completed pass. My main point is we went back to 442 when we are clearly not good enough to play that way in a positive offensive sense. In that way it feels very mush like something Trap would do.
I counted more than that, to be fair. In the third quarter we managed to slow the pace down (or Scotland got tired) and I thought we passed it quite well and Walters dropped back a bit more to help the midfield, but overall our passing accuracy was abysmal and I think much of it was down to the fact we had two lads standing up front when it clearly wasn't where the game was being played. I have to admit I was surprised we didn't set up with McGeady in the middle like in Germany. With Keane out, we were crying out for somebody with a bit more of a touch and creativity in the middle, and the direct tactics stopped working pretty early in the game. I wonder if the plan was actually to keep two strikers up or if Walters just wasn't doing his job properly, although judging by the fact he played the whole game I'm guessing it was the plan. Either way, I think the differences from the Trap style were more than the similarities, but I think O'Neill will have to look at changing things.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishbash
I genuinely believe that it has to be a move away from 442. I'm a realist I don't believe for one min that we will dominate teams possession wise but I really do think we have some decent players playing in the right system can allow us more constructive possession & I actually believe that will make us defensively more solid as we won't be giving it away so often allowing us to be more organised. As I said I'm a big O'Neill fan & I'd love him to get us playing with some confidence cause if he does he has the motivational skills to bring this team on
I wouldn't play the 442 either, or if we do I'd have a second forward who can bridge the gap between midfield and attack like Naismith does and has the energy to do all the running required. I do think O'Neill called the selection wrong and it was probably riskier to leave ourselves short in midfield than it would have been to play one up top.
Shocked by the result and by much of the outright negative reaction on here. No doubt we got our tactics wrong particularly up front, but I still think we are a better team than we showed. I predicted a win, yes I got it wrong, but don't ram it down my neck as many on here seem to feel it necessary to do to me and others. At least we didn't lose to the Faroes and I am already looking forward to the Scots coming to Dublin. Nothing like a win to shut up whingers. COYBIG!
You heard him. The last thing we need right now is gastric problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Bish wins.
Talking the most sense here.
Cheeky pup :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
no o hanlon bashing please. he was excellent against real in the 19s champ league 2 weeks ago and against the bulgarians . great coverage on eurosportQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
It is baffling how doolin doesn't have o'hanlon in the u19s, especially given that he is a regular starter in the uefa youth league, as is Dan cleary. Byrne and lawlor I would wager will become Irish internationals very soon. Both terrific talents. O'hanlon and cleary maybe less so, but still very good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Anyhow, I believe that unless we beat the USA and Poland, we have feck all chance of being 3rs seeds for the next campaign. In that case, I'd far rather a lot of new talent introduced supplemented by the core of decent players already in the set up. We would stand more from seeing derrick Williams and Shane Duffy in a game than we would John O'Shea. Lawlor would gain more from being around the set up than Shay given. Jack Byrne might be able to impress pellegrini or a good championship club and progress his career on loan. At the very least, it will give these lads a boost.
Mick did it years ago and after some very painful performances such as Iceland and Lithuania at home, we became a very decent side. I'd love something similar now, because the current bunch (good lads the lot of them) will never amount to much. When we're getting outclassed by a Scottish team where Naismith is the star, then I think it's time to rip it up.
Isn't the real issue that Coleman can be afforded the opportunity to get forward at Everton because his midfield is competitive? One could maybe argue that Coleman getting forward more for Ireland would help his midfield but I don't think it works this way. Our midfield just didn't get a foothold in the game and everyone else's impact suffered as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
I'm with you on Walters although I think his selection in Germany was justified due to Meyler being at RB. He is clearly an O'Neill favourite and it's straight out of the Hartson / Sutton /Heskey preference he used to have. O'Neill very much likes to be able to bash the door down as well as to pick the lock. In Scotland there was no chance of picking the lock, only bashing at the door.
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Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheOneWhoKnocks
Two and a bit campaigns before we lost under Trap away from home. Three games in to this first campaign.
As I have sad before, I am relying on O'Neill to sort out the huge issues we had at home under the Trap. If not, we're screwed. We MUST beat Poland and Scotland and I believe we can do this.
Not sure what all the negatively is about. Scotland are obviously a team on the up and we were missing our best midfielder and playing an untried combination in the middle. I have never rated Gibson any higher than Whelan. He was of course God's gift when he wasn't been selected by Trap and Whelan was a donkey but frankly I don't see much of a difference between the two except Whelan works harder and puts the foot in more while Gibson is slightly better on the ball. I don't believe it was right to drop Robbie for the game. It was the sort of game he could have excelled in. Interesting he was warming up down by us when Scotland scored and he immediately sprinted up to the bench when it happened - HE at least (and the fans chanting his name at the time) knew he should be on the pitch.
It was always going to be a tight game and Scotland got the goal with a nicely worked move. Our two forwards never looked like scoring. At the game Keogh appeared to do everything asked on his but I see fault was still found with his display. Scratches his head....
We're second in the group. To hell with Bungle's planning for future campaigns. We have to learn to beat our competitors at home and if we do, France beckons.
Any Scots we met were friendly but I understand from YBIG (hearsay from a friend - don't go there myself), many Irish fans in the Scots section were abused and worse. If there's one thing I have learned when supporting a team away from home, you sit on your hands when among away supporters. I believe that anyone who thought it might be otherwise was very naive. Great stadium. Very hard to get taxis though.
Actually, we're fourth.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Granted, it means little at this stage, but the first tie-break is head-to-head. Germany, Scotland and ourselves are all on seven points and have all played each other once. Germany have four points, Scotland three and us one.
Next round is us against Poland, Scotland against Gibraltar and Germany against Georgia. That brings us to half-way. Can't see Scotland or Germany slipping up. So we really are on the back foot in qualifying terms.
Of course, we've only played one home game, and all optimism will return come March. For 90 minutes at least!
We have to be more clever with what we have, fit our more technical players into a system that allows them to maximise what we have. Gibson is taking a lot of flack & yes he was poor the other night but there have been players who have also not set the world alight for a couple of years now. I'm not sure I ever remember Glen Whelan going around regularly making crunching tackles and breaking up play, it doesn't happen, but to be fair to the man its usually cause we are being outnumbered in that area. It seems like for 4 years or more now more often than not our midfield has been chasing shadows trying to survive. Not just against top teams but against ones that are exactly of the standard that we are at. That to me is the biggest disappointment. We haven't maximised what we have we have just adopted the view we are not very good we can't do anything different.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
players like Robbie Brady need to play more from here on. Yes I ackknowledge his injury record has not been great but if he can stay fit he needs to start playing more. I'm not saying he is a messiah I'm saying technically he is better than James McClean. To me work rate should be a given. McClean offers bags of it I accept that, but I believe a Robbie Brady offering the same work rate brings much more quality on the ball. Similarly with a fit Gibson I don't believe there is anything Whelan does that Gibson when fit is not capable of, however, I do think Gibson is better on the ball with a range of passing that is important that we maximise. This is where O'Neills motivation skills come in, get the work rate out of our slightly better players.
Stephen Ward is not up to it. I think he is a liability at left back he offers not much defensively & nothing in an attacking sense. Wilson for me should ply left back.
Again I'm the 1st to admit our talent pool is limited, but let's try get a bit more creative with things rather than just reverting to type.
I'd prefer to think of us as joint second.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I think there was a Scot offside (at the far post) from the free kick which led to the corner which Scotland scored from. Did anyone else pick up on this? On much minor matters games are decided. Should we demand a replay?
But he does add the key observation, one which usually gets ignoredQuote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
"The point is that this Scotland team is now good enough to capitalise on such things (breaks), whereas before it was not".
re our style of play I was replying to a post which said we hoofed it more than Trap. In Trap's time we hoofed most every time, now we don't, except for kickouts, There's a change with O'Neill , we kept trying to play it out of defence on the floor, which we didn't under Trap. Why we are still giving impressions of a stumbling apprenticeship in elegant football and not making the 6th pass stick, instead choosing to send a 50/50 ball, is another issue. Also you could see a huge difference in the contributions between Mulgrew and Gibson in that game and both in similar roles.
Based on the reduced panel of players O'Neill could select from, the way the game did turn out, showed that he did make some poor choices on how we should play, which did not work in the circumstances.
Good point. As much as Friday night's performance pi**** me off, we do need to give MON some time to work with the players he has. He has a limited amount of good ones to be fair, but I will judge him on whether he accepts mediocrity in his players. Cases in point - Stephen Ward and Richard Keogh. They were the principal hoof ball merchants on Friday night. I would replace Keogh with Shane Duffy in a minute and I can honestly say that there are players I have played with in amateur football that could have done the job Ward did at Parkhead. He offers zero in the way of creativity or composure to the team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Strachan made a difference very quickly though and the turnaround started early. A year and about a dozen games into MON's tenure we are still struggling for direction. He has been unlucky with player unavailability at key times but still I can't shake the impression that his instincts are cautious and this will be decisive against us.
Of all the things wrong with Friday's performance I'd rank Keogh about 27th in the list of importance. He was absolutely fine on the night. Forde's pass was a hospital pass and he had one sliced long ball at the end. I even thought Ward was OK. Limited going forward, sound enough at the back. I wasn't that disappointed in any of the individual performances, it was as a unit that we failed to gel and impress.
Look, we were missing players and we have 4 key home games coming up. It's still all to play for despite my negative view of Friday night.
Owlsfan -
Robbie Keane thought he should be on the pitch? Not really surprising?! A player thinking he merits a starting place.
Starting Robbie Keane the other night wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. The Robbie Keane of 4 or 5 years ago then yes he would & should have started. This version? His legs have gone & he's in the twilight of his career. Long will be the future of this team - it might not be as successful as the Keane era but it's time he was given a fair crack of the whip.
I have just started watching the game again and we have lumped in twice within 90 seconds!! One after SIX seconds.
Said it on here a couple of months ago that James McLean will be our next "proper" left back, for years to come (combative, can hold the ball and is not afraid to make a challenge). And I still believe it to be the case. Like the way you think about Robbie Brady. He has technical ability moreso than several in the team. He is the type of player we need in the final third. And you're right - Ward is not up to it, not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishbash
Brady needs to be given the chance to impress on Tuesday.
Just back from Glasgow. I've flicked through the past five pages or so, I know the game's been done to death but just my two cents, off the top of my head:
- We clearly had no intent or plan to win that game. Everything about our set-up and intent was about stopping Scotland, and grabbing a draw or a lucky goal. If we wanted to play more, MON would have addressed out midfield being far too deep and our defensive forward been Jon Walters. Play JW between the lines and you're sending the statement that it's all about long balls; flick-ons and holding up hoofs. Midfield were too far from Walters to take advantage of the few balls that stuck and him and Long had not telepathy whatsoever for flicks. Ultimately if we wanted to play a bit more we needed a forward between the lines who could get on the ball and use it. In that regard, the player we missed most of all was Wes Hoolahan.
- I thought Shane Long was poor. He got no service (ala Robbie for the last 5-6 years) but he rarely (almost never) stretched their defenders (probably one of his main strengths). The game didn't suit him, he hardly saw the ball, the set-up didn't suit him but still - still he was underpar. Gibson too. These are opportunities, I want players to stand up.
- Ultimately though it's a blot on O'Neill's copybook. I'm not on the verge of turning against the management yet, but we have to see some willingness to actually play positively with the aim of winning a game. Creating chances. Troubling the opposition. With that defeat, being a team that stops is not an option (and it was never any fun anyway).
- A positive - O'Neill is less set-in-ways than Trap, as Friday's selection shows. He playing horses-for-courses even if he gets it wrong. He may have some favourites, but it's reassuring to know there's some flexibility there.
Took you less than 48 hours to swim back from Scotland Swan. Not bad. Did you have any scotch eggs?
Do you get a special feeling from these left field contributions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Its not really out of left field that he would have a scotch egg, Declan.
I agree with SvD in almost all of the above, but O'Neill needs to prove he has another way of winning the big games and pretty damned soon. Trap lost me completely when we played well in Sweden and then tried to bash the door down at home to Austria. (Note: Austria going great guns in their group btw.).
Long? I was infuriated by one dumb free he gave away deep in Scottish territory. He does this a lot. Sometimes he never cops on that its ok just to back off. He's not a kid any more. But still, I don't think Long and Walters played badly as Individusls, but they were not a unit and they were not even remotely connected to the rest of the team. People are quick to criticise Keane for being ineffective but I think being a forward for Ireland away is a tough ask. They key is to have a bona fide "three quarterist" occupying that space between the lines. Both Long and Keane get much more of the ball and more chances when they have played ahead of Hoolahan, for example.
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I do think it's kind of funny that in a week when some Scots were spouting bile at Scottish born lads playing for Ireland, the set piece that led to the goal was devised by a guy from Bradford and finished by a guy born in Malaysia with the most Irish name on the pitch!
One of my fears is say Brady does play & he doesn't impress immediately he'll be bombed back out and & it will be back to the tried & tested. We need new ideas but moreover they need to be given a chance to work & cut some slack not just go straight back too 442.
I meant generally, Bing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Yes. Without saying anything about the tactical ineptitude there for all to see in friendies as well as competitive games, it is extremely disappointing to see MON put down the quality of what he is working with in much the same vein as his predecessor. Now don't get me wrong, he did show better strategic management at crucial times in the Georgia & Germany game than Trapattoni did at the same stage of games against Sweden & Austria but he should be doing it right from the start.
I haven't seen a convincing argument as to why Keane should be in the team. Walters & Long each had more chances on goal than Keane would have mustered on the evidence of his previous appearances and showed signs of good link-up play; better than Keane showed when he has been paired with anyone recently.
Again, Keogh did okay - personally think O'Shea was better - but he had several nervy moments which will be consigned to the dust heap because they went unpunished.
Does anyone honestly think there isn't going to be a problem if Keane is benched again for the Poland game in March? His body language and vibes are not good; granted he'll be back in the team again for the next game anyway so it's not like there will be a problem. One step forward, too steps back and all that. Rome wasn't built in a day. With the right formation and our strongest players back, Long will impress further; though he still managed the same aforementioned link-up play that Keane is inadequate at, and on another day would have got an opposition defender sent off after showing anticipation and breaking through on goal at pace.
Panicking, dropping Long now, reinstating Keane, persisting with square pegs in round holes (Walters) is not the solution.
Personally disappointed that Keane isn't still in the squad for the U.S.A. game. If he wants to win back his place he is due a good performance and playing a top level team like U.S.A. would have been a great opportunity.
Assuming McGoldrick will be given the chance that Stokes & Murphy haven't been given and will walk straight into the team for a start on Tuesday, will O'Neill try a McGoldrick/Murphy combination that has been working so well at club level?
Edit: On a final note. The Scots were just smarter than Ireland on pretty much every level. They had players haranguing the referee at every opportunity, they had players (Naismith) constantly diving, our players didn't harangue the referee enough into being more proactive with punishing their players, you had Keane having to tell Keogh to tell Coleman to be more aggressive. This is the best sideline management they can f'ing come up with?
I didn't notice Naismith diving much in real time but I'm going to watch the game again tomorrow.
It's hard not to think your criticisms are personal. I'm not sure if it'd have mattered if keane, Long, Walters or Romario were playing upfront. The service was dreadful.
As for McGoldrick walking into the team: I have only seen snippets but Daryl Murohy himself says he is a creator of chances for other forwards. Our home games (and away in my opinion) cry out for a player like this and Hoolahan isn't playing. Maybe Brady could do this role but McGoldrick would be more of a round peg in this particular round hole so I personally wouldn't be too indignant if he starts. Stokes might have a claim but too maybe, but I'm not convinced by Stokes' hunger or attitude.
Is there any Irish player who is a teenager coming up the pipeline who is likely going to be really good?
Someone they could build a team around?
I'd like to see Ireland play in a wc again before im 90. Poor Stutts runs marathons just to take his mind off this.
Aye, but you don't know all his 'secret' training routine. Definitely athleticism with a twist...