Israel? :OQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Printable View
Israel? :OQuote:
Originally Posted by geysir
That's a strange thing to see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
Reports coming through that Pulis has left Stoke City
The idea O'Neill overachieved on a small budget with Villa is false. He had the fifth biggest budget in the league and he consistently hovered around 5-6th place, ie exactly where you'd expect. Still, he's a good manager and I think he could do very well with Ireland.
Pulis would have been a great manager for us a few years ago when our strengths virtually mirrored Stoke's except in terms of raw physicality. But with the retirement of Duff, Given and possibly Dunne, we don't have the players for that type of game plan and Pulis has roundly failed to adapt his Stoke team in spite of bringing in smaller, more technically proficient players.
What the hell does this mean?Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckydee
What sectarian violence?Quote:
Originally Posted by give me football
I would hate to have Lennon near the role. Can't stand the man.
He is from the North and his 'history' is well documented. But no chance of Lenny and a totally unsuitable match just now.
Think we're stuck with Trap for now and the best REALISTIC alternatives when he goes are the likes of O'Leary, O'Driscoll or McDermott IMO.
Clearly we'd prefer someone better but unlikely to get ano. high-profile manager so soon...
I know what the article are alluding to.
But I can't quite figure out where or why such sectarian violence will occur should we appoint a guy from Lurgan as our manager. A Nationalist from Lurgan for that matter.
Think yer man means up North. Not that they don't have bigger issues...
Rodgers certainly has a point in this article, Trap needs to trust more in the technical ability of Irish players, but to say they have the same technical ability as players on the continent is hard to agree with. Personally, I would love to see Gibson come in from the cold.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...-29479333.html
Sounds sensible enough and hits the nail on the head as regards what has been going wrong with Ireland since late 2009 (and please, don't mention the qualification, every Irish manager and every Irish team in the last 25-30 years would have got second in that group and beaten Estonia).
To repeat what I've said elsewhere, we need to get away from non-stop long balls to the likes of Sammon. And there's no need for the likes of Cox or the game Walters on the wings in big games.
For what it's worth, I'd like to see something like:
Long
Winger-Hoolahan-Winger
McCarthy-CM
Wilson-O'Shea-CB-Coleman
Forde
Winger: we have decent options here with McGeady, McClean, Brady, Pilkington etc... so there's no need for strikers there who offer nothing. Even Coleman could play RM, but the combination of Coleman at RB and Brady at RM has looked exciting any time we've seen it.
CM: Ideally Gibson, alternatively one of Andrews, Meyler, Hendrick, Whelan at a push though he's too static for a centre midfielder...
CB: could be Dunne, SSL, R.Keogh, O'Dea...
That team could mix Irish directness and agressiveness with a bit of football ability. And we'll need a bit of possession if we're to get anything from Vienna and Cologne in the autumn and to hang on to unlikely leads or hold out for draws. Are we supposed to go to those places with long ball 4-4-2s and get results, Trap?
Forcing Keane into the team turns us into the 4-4-2 we need to get away from, so Keane should be an excellent option from the bench if we need something in the last 20-30 minutes.
But of course Trap is convinced that we can't play football and STILL hasn't tried out a 4-5-1 or 4-3-3 (call it what you will) in any sensible way from the start of a friendly despite 3 recent friendlies. (I also don't understand why we need Pilkington to try out a new formation, this sounds like a Trap red herring.) With Trap's 4-4-2, we still manage to look outgunned in midfield even against the likes of Armenia and Georgia when they go down to ten men! And I thought you hired Italians for clever tactics and defensive stability...
We need to strike a balance. I'd love to see the manager trust more in our players and let them use their technical ability more, but at international level, the system has to reflect the talent pool available. We could play nicer football than we do at the moment, but the people who suggest that we have the players to play the exact same system as Spain, or Italy, or Germany are deluded. Personally, I think with the players we have, our best bet is to play with a solid spine of players, ideally Gibson and McCarthy in the centre of midfield, sitting deep and helping hold possession, with our quickest full backs and wingers on the field to break when the opportunity arises. Probably John Walters up front to hold up the ball and relieve pressure, and to get on the end of crosses, either alongside someone with a bit of pace, or in front of Robbie Keane, who can drop back into midfield and give the central pair some extra options.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
With the players we have available, I'd probably go:
Forde/Randolph
Kelly...O'Shea...Sledge...Coleman
McGeady...Wilson...McCarthy...Brady/Hoolahan/McClean
Keane/Pilkington
Walters/Long
You wouldn't call Hoolahan a 'winger' then...Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
You do and we have it. We once went 15 months unbeaten under Trap. We still have yet to lose a qualifier away from home, and we've recently gone 6 games unbeaten. So his clever tactics and defensive stability works.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
If you think it's that easy to beat Estonia and get second in a competitive group, travel about 150 kilometres up the road, find a few butchers aprons handy, and they'll tell you how easy it is to do both.
As I've also said before, we Irish do 4-4-2. We've been playing it as long as I'm watching the team, and in that time it's got us to 5 tournaments. What we have, we hold.
Ah come on, you're not seriously saying that without Trap, we would be at Northern Ireland's level? We have been in the top three seeds of every qualifying group in the last 20-odd years, and as you say, qualified for five tournaments. In that same period, NI haven't been seeded higher than fourth, and have never even qualified for a playoff. Comparing our resources to those of the North is like comparing Sweden and Denmark to Iceland and Finland. We have better players, and more of them, playing at higher levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Trap's record is just about acceptable. We've beaten the lower-seeded teams, and invariably drawn home and away against our immediate playoff rivals (Bulgaria, Slovakia, Sweden, Austria) which cancels out poor home performances and thrown-away leads, with some decent, gritty away showings. Our record against the 'top' teams is: Played 10, Won 0, Drawn 4, Lost 6. Under McCarthy, it was: Played 10, Won 3, Drawn 5, Lost 2, although I would admit McCarthy had slightly more talent available. So, it balances out as 'acceptable' - we are not under-achieving, nor over-achieving.
But is 'acceptable' and 'level par' good enough for one of the highest-paid managers in Europe, who plays to a system which sacrifices talent in order to - in theory, at least - make us 'more than the sum of our parts'? Who adopts an attritional style of play and bizarre selection criteria, and alienated many of the fans as a result? Who has guided us to two record defeats in the last 13 months?
The player himself and his club manager seem to consider him a creative midfielder, playing in the middle behind a lone stiker and ahead of defensive midfielders. He'd be ideal in this role for us, if Trap ever played him like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
That sounds like a profession of faith rather than a logical argument. Where has Trap ever applied appropriate tactics for a game, changed tactics, or changed a game with a tactical substitution? I can only think of examples of his failure to do so, such as his failure to react around 70 minutes vs Austria and his persistence in playing 4-4-2 against Spain. When he does play five in midfield, it is in a ham-fisted way (McCarthy advanced v Uruguay, or the chaos at home v Germany). Otherwise Trap does the same thing, regardless of whether we're playing Spain or Andorra – that's not clever tactics. And nobody can seriously claim defensive stability over the last year or so considering some of the hammerings we've taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I didn't say it was easy, it's just all par for the course for us and shouldn't be used to paper over other shortcomings. Previous managers have drawn with the likes of Slovakia and beaten Estonia. So what? We need a new approach that makes the most of the talent available to us now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Why do we have to do what we've always done if it's not working? And in fact you're wrong – we clearly haven't always played 4-4-2. The conservative Big Jack regularly lined us up 4-5-1 towards the end of his tenure when he saw that was the way to go (see USA 94), and even Trap has experimented with it in a half-assed way (see above).Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Bringing Folan on away to ItalyQuote:
Originally Posted by p2011
Bringing Doyle on away to Kazakhstan changed the game too
Okay, I'll give you those two.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Bringing on Folan represented a shift to Keane playing behind two strikers when we were playing ten men, that's a real tactical shift and it worked – though it is 4.5 years ago at this stage. Doyle for Cox v Kazakhstan was more of a like for like swap, a striker on the wing for a striker on the wing, so not really a tactical shift even if Doyle did have a big impact.
We haven't seen enough of this sort of thing. Austria at home was crying out for a couple of changes around 70 mins, Green on for Whelan say, and any striker on for Sammon who was knackered and not closing down the opposition, and Hoolahan too to hold onto the ball. (Instead we got Green at RM on for Long, a tired Walters pushed up front with a tired Sammon - we didn't even use our 3 subs) All three games in Poland were examples of tactical inertia. I still don't see how anyone can claim Trap employs clever tactics or influences games from the line during games.
I am seriously saying it. Look at the ever decreasing standard of club football our players are playing at. Another player has moved downstairs this week. In a few weeks, he'll be expected to take on Germany and be competent at their level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
We were heading for the gstq's level of football until he took over, and we were fourth seeds for one campaign. If you want us to end up there and with their other unfortunate brothers across the water, wait til Trap goes and suddenly beating Estonia in playoffs will be no more than a pipe dream.
Our "record defeats" are to teams ranked Number 1 and Number 2 in the game, who qualify for every tournament and one that wins every prize going. Sorry we didn't quite match up to their standards but it can happen when a Real Madrid/Barcelona/Bayern Munich XI face the "best" of Stoke, Wigan, Millwall etc.Quote:
Trap's record is just about acceptable. But is 'acceptable' and 'level par' good enough for one of the highest-paid managers in Europe, who plays to a system which sacrifices talent in order to - in theory, at least - make us 'more than the sum of our parts'? Who adopts an attritional style of play and bizarre selection criteria, and alienated many of the fans as a result? Who has guided us to two record defeats in the last 13 months?
Our performance in 29 qualifiers since he took over is 26 results - 3 reverses. His away qualifying record is 15 games - 15 results. Our record since he took over is 2 playoffs, and 1 finals. He is the first Irish coach to get results in Russia and Bulgaria, and the first Irish coach to win in Macedonia. This is a country of 4 million people and by those standards, it's not just "acceptable", it's outstanding.
He reacted against Austria on 80 minutes. Another 65 seconds and it would have paid off.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
No other Irish coach has beaten Estonia. Others have failed to beat Macedonia, Cyprus, and Liechtenstein. Only one other Irish coach has ever won a playoff. It certainly isn't par for the course.Quote:
I didn't say it was easy, it's just all par for the course for us. Previous managers have drawn with the likes of Slovakia and beaten Estonia. So what?
No he didn't. For 10 years, we played 4-4-2 and whacked the ball 40 yards up the pitch. Some of our most famous goals of all time have come from the 40-yard lump. Today, we play 4-4-2 and whack the ball 40 yards up the pitch. It's got us to a tournament and a playoff. However unattractive it looks, it's by far our most successful tactic.Quote:
Why do we have to do what we've always done if it's not working? And in fact you're wrong – we clearly haven't always played 4-4-2. The conservative Big Jack regularly lined us up 4-5-1 towards the end of his tenure when he saw that was the way to go (see USA 94).
I honestly don't care how it looks, I crave results. We've got 26 of them in the past 5 years and a ticket to a championship, therefore I believe in what our coach is doing for this country.
It's looking like a pipe dream now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
mypost, I don't mean to nit pick, but we beat Estonia home and away in qualification for WC2002. Kinsella and Breen scored in Dublin, Dunne and Holland in Tallinn
Could be argued that with one of the best paid international managers we havent even looked close to winning anything (as in trophies):pQuote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Simply not true. We started all four games at USA 94 with a lone striker. Look it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
The great Tommy Coyne was first choice was he not?Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
First choice because Big Niall was sequestered with a back injury, which he now claims shouldn't have kept him out of the team. We can now see Quinn's forced exclusion as a desperate and cynical ploy by the Italians to prevent us from imposing our mastery of the 4-4-2 upon their puny brand of calcio.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
That's the exactly sort of defeatist negative talk that Trap comes out with, blaming the players and giving up against big teams before we even square up to them (his comments after Euros and Germany). I'm used to Irish teams showing a bit more spirit and having a go against every opposition, whether ranked 1 or 100.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I've no problem with us losing to magnificent teams like Spain and Germany, but I do have a problem with the negligence in not using the bench v Austria and in Trap's defeatist attitude v big teams. It's not what Ireland is about.
So he reacted too late and in the wrong way, that's great. And any Italian manager worth his salt would make a 3rd substitution in stoppage time at 2-1 to waste a minute.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Patently not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Patently not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Hmm, for every 'good' point mp makes, he seems to make about 4 bad ones...
The one which I will respond to is Trap's record. Yes, it is good in terms of not losing. Ecellent even. But that can and will only ever achieve so much.
But it is poor in conceding draws and shocking in converting leads into victories whilst all but the biggest die-hard will admit that's it's like :rolleyes: watching paint dry at times...
Not just that;would rather take the slight risk of winning games, with the slight chance of losing the odd one. We might even accumulate a higher aggregate and the spectacle could only be more appealing?
I vaguely remember us winning the Celtic Cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennocelt
A forgettable match but an unforgettable memory of an all important cosy away win in 2001.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
But Trap's away record is indeed above par.
So what are we about then? The moral victory I guess. How many points does it get, tournaments, trophies even?Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
He isn't defeatist, he is realistic. Outpassing the Germans and Spanish is not possible. Outplaying them with our resources compared to theirs is not doable. So we must have a system which we have, a formation which we have, and a gameplan which usually gets the result we need. You might want us to have a go, but Italians want to get a result. You "have a go" on PS2, you don't "have a go" in top level football, when you need a result with your job on the line.
And any continental ref is within his rights to add on the minute wasted if he wishes.Quote:
And any Italian manager worth his salt would make a 3rd substitution in stoppage time at 2-1 to waste a minute.
We had 3 minutes to hold out against a side who offered lots of possession but few attempts on goal. So they got Alaba to try his luck 20 yards out with a minute left. And it still needed a deflection to go in.
Finland drew 1-1 in Spain a couple of months ago. Sweden drew in Germany. I don't see why we should accept 4/5 goal defeats as an inevitability. When Spain won the World Cup, they didn't win every game 4-0 - Switzerland beat them, and Chile, Paraguay and even Honduras gave them a tougher test than we did in Gdansk.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Wins against Georgia, Cyprus, Armenia, Macedonia and Estonia are all good and commendable, but taken for what they are, they don't offer much of a validation for such a high-profile coach, who is extravagantly paid to get the best and more out of our resources. The only justification for playing this style of football would be if we were genuinely over-achieving. You may think we are, we'll have to agree to differ. I think that if we actually got our best team on the field on a consistent basis, results and performances would be better. An Irish team with Whelan in the centre, Sammon up front, and a striker on the wing is clearly not the best Irish XI.
We were close to having that 'ideal' team against Sweden, with Keane dropping deep, and we played well and got a point. Then Trapattoni reverted to type for the Austria game, made a daft selectorial decision in replacing Keane with Sammon instead of Hoolahan, and we went back to long-ball and an undermanned midfield. We were outplayed, and dropped two points. At home. The manager has to carry the can for that, just as much as we should commend him for grinding out wins against the 'banana-skin' sides.
Finland got a point in Spain. Georgia almost got another in an earlier qualifier. You can be assured, that it didn't come from "having a go". It came from having a gameplan, and carrying it out. That's what has to be done, and what we do too.
A group is a 10 game campaign, not a glamour game series. The above wins are not merely "good and commendable", they're essential, and without them there would be no playoffs or finals. That's why Finland nor Georgia won't qualify for the World Cup, and why we are in the hunt for further progress from our group in this campaign.
To be fair, Northern Ireland keep on beating the likes of Spain and England in one-off performances. It doesn't mean I'd replace our players, manager, tactics, or general international record with theirs!
Yes, I agree that these wins over Armenia, Estonia etc are essential, but achieving those results is not 'outstanding', as you claim. It is a basic requirement at this level. There is no excuse for a team made up mostly of proven EPL players to drop points to sides made up of players from third-rate European teams. Estonia have current full internationals playing for York City, Motherwell and Sillamae Kalev - beating them 4-0 with a two-man advantage isn't exactly a cause for hailing Trapattoni as a miracle worker. Armenia's team, aside from Mkhitaryan, is made up mostly of home-based players and journeymen from the Kazakh and Iranian leagues. Yet Estonia and Armenia - two countries with even smaller populations than our own - are the most high-profile teams we've beaten under Trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
I don't want to go on the anti-Trap witch-hunt bandwagon, and I am aware that the search for a replacement is fraught with danger, but I'm frustrated with the 'one step forward, two steps back' pattern under his reign. We played some great stuff away to Montenegro in '08, France in '09, and Sweden this year, when Trapattoni picked the best players and allowed them to play. However, instead of taking the positives and building on these encouraging performances, we have invariably reverted to the crude hoofball and bizarre selections which resulted in inept performances in crucial home games against Bulgaria, Slovakia and Austria. We could have paid dearly for that draw with Slovakia, and we will, I fear, pay dearly for that result against the Austrians. It has the whiff of Brian Kerr and Israel all over again.
So what if their players play for York City and Iran? We had to face those teams and get the better of them, which we did. Plenty of previous Irish coaches have failed to do so in the past, and plenty will in the future. Maybe the results themselves aren't outstanding, but the consistency of them most certainly is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
The neighbours couldn't deal with Estonia in the very same campaign, and didn't qualify. They then changed coach, who still can't get the better of Malta, Iceland, Luxembourg, or anyone else for that matter these days. That's what happens when gameplans, systems, and organisation are sacrificed for "having a go". So they won't be going to Brazil either.
Under Trap, we haven't paid dearly for any result he's got us long term. Austria have 3 away games left and may pay dearly for not winning in Astana, while the "value" of Sweden's point in Germany has been thrown in the bin after their results since. So we're all level with 4 games to go, and we're neither in nor out of it yet.
But surely you can see why I would be concerned? We can't, like in 2011, depend on other results to go our way. If we are to qualify for the playoffs, we'll have to do something in September that we've never done under Trap, and win a game against a seeded playoff rival. If we're going to do that, we have to play our best players, try to score goals from open play, and produce a level of performance that we have only fleetingly seen under this manager. If the manager resorts to hoofing it and leaving out our best players for limited grafters, as we have done so often under Trapattoni, we will deserve the early elimination that will inevitably follow.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
None of us know what we need to do. What we have to do is finish above Austria and Sweden at the end of the last game. If that means getting 5, 6, 7, or 8 points, that's what it means. The group is decided after we beat the Kazachs, and no sooner.
There are many other countries that would love to be in the position we're in, but are playing for ranking points only.
Will bet you any money you can we don't get 8 points from our remaining games. 5 at best I reckon.
5 is the most we can hope for, if we keep playing like we did against Austria.
Direct, attritional tactics are very well-suited to playing against lower-ranked teams. When we get the ball into the opposition half quickly, it forces mistakes and loose possession from defenders who aren't used to playing high-intensity football. Robbie's second goal in Macedonia, and the sendings-off in the Armenia and Estonia games, are both good examples of this.
However, against Bulgaria, Slovakia, Croatia, Austria, et al, we are playing against composed Bundesliga defenders who are well used to high-intensity football, and when we inevitably give possession away from long balls, these teams have enough quality/technique to keep possession for long periods. We then find it difficult to win it back, so like against Austria in the second half, we find ourselves chasing shadows and being too fatigued to use the ball constructively on the rare occasions that we get it. Stupidity is doing the same things over again while expecting different results - we have to be smarter against Sweden and Austria. We need to be able to play like we did in Stockholm, mix it up, and be able to slow the game down, do the simple things right, and keep the ball, especially if we find ourselves in front. With Hoolahan and McCarthy in midfield, and Keane dropping back, this would be achievable. With Whelan in there and two isolated centre-forwards, not so much. It's Trap's call.
I don't mean to nit pick either, but it was actually Dunne and not Breen that scored in Dublin also.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987