Norn Iron rubbish part 23452346526

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07/12/2009, 2:04 PM
bwagner

Can anyone answer my question ? without having a cheap shot like Not Brazil
07/12/2009, 2:09 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwagner

Can anyone answer my question ? without having a cheap shot like Not Brazil

Do you mean 'are these players Roman Catholics'? If so, I think the ones you mentioned are/ were. Maybe others too. Who cares?
07/12/2009, 2:14 PM
ArdeeBhoy

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

Yes, unlike the current situation where everybody has a national team which they can feel is representative of them.

The merger would undoubtedly leave a sizeable number of NI citizens without any team which they feel represents them. You, apparently, have no problem with that.

Of course they do. Not.

And as if the current situation is any different to what you suggest.
07/12/2009, 2:15 PM
bwagner

I care hence why im asking, right
07/12/2009, 2:18 PM
Gather round

B Wagner- sorry, didn't mean that to sound so abrupt. I don't care and none of my friends who support NI care either, so I suppose we just get a bit surprised when other people who don't support the team care.
07/12/2009, 2:19 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwagner

I care hence why im asking, right

But why do you care where footballers say their prayers, or if they even bother with that malarky at all?:confused:
07/12/2009, 2:21 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Of course they do. Not

(I know I'm wasting my time but) any chance of you explaining that, AB? Osarusan's point was perfectly straightforward. Football fans in Ireland can support whichever team they prefer at present. With your preferred alternative, many wouldn't be able to.
07/12/2009, 2:27 PM
bwagner

jesus lads its just a question :O)
I have mixed parents so it just interests me as im not from the area (and dont fully understand). I never go to mass.

I think its great to see mixed players and i wear my Norn Iron 82 jersey in Dundalk dispite the abuse :O)
07/12/2009, 2:31 PM
Gather round

Good man, sorry about the abuse. Maybe you should shop in Newry instead ;)
07/12/2009, 2:34 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

You're either looking at the wrong statistics, or misinterpreting them. In the last NI Assembly election in 2007 (past electoral behavior being the best, if hardly a 100% reliable indicator of future voting intention), nationalist parties got 42% of the vote. That's a long way behind the 58% who vote non-nationalist. You'd have to rely on some combination of

I thought it was a referendum that would decide the future of Northern Ireland - and if that is the case the breakdown of nationalist / unionist seats in Stormont would not be an indicator as to how the vote would turn out. For instance, Sinn Fein lost seats in the Dail last time around, but actually increased its overall vote.

If you want to look at it by seat percentages - aren't most the councils now controlled by nationalists at the moment?

Anyway, the way things are (not) going anywhere fast, will Stormont survive? Westminster mightn't be as tolerant with the cash to support a football team when they know their good pals down in Dublin could save them a few bob, just like we do with the rugby.
07/12/2009, 2:40 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwagner

jesus lads its just a question :O)
I have mixed parents so it just interests me as im not from the area (and dont fully understand). I never go to mass.

I think its great to see mixed players and i wear my Norn Iron 82 jersey in Dundalk dispite the abuse :O)

Strange that people who would wish to be "united" with the Northern Ireland team and it's supporters would abuse you for having the temerity to wear a Northern Ireland shirt.;)

Fair play to you for wearing it.

Genuinely not sure where some of the players say their prayers, but I think Damien Johnson is from a Catholic background - although, having sat beside him on a flight home from the West Indies tour, I would also be pretty certain that he isn't overly religious at all.

There are numerous kids from a Catholic background in the underage teams - so I'm told. I really couldn't give a flying one about that though.
07/12/2009, 2:44 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

I thought it was a referendum that would decide the future of Northern Ireland

It could be, but if nationalists got a majority in an Assembly, Westminster or Euro election, that would maybe trigger a referendum. Maybe if the majority was big enough, the Brits and Unionists would just give up immediately and get on the first plane/ boat out ;)

Quote:

and if that is the case the breakdown of nationalist / unionist seats in Stormont would not be an indicator as to how the vote would turn out

I didn't mention the breakdown of seats, merely that nationalists only got 42% of the vote. That's not going to change to 51% + in a referndum any time soon.

Quote:

For instance, Sinn Fein lost seats in the Dail last time around, but actually increased its overall vote

Interesting in itself (I assume much of the increase was in Dublin and other cities where the quota to get elected is higher than in rural seats).

But not really relevant to a border poll for NI.

Quote:

If you want to look at it by seat percentages - aren't most the councils now controlled by nationalists at the moment?

Many are, but that doesn't change the reality of 42% losing out to 58%. Ballycastle and Magherafelt councils may outnumber Bangor's, but since the latter's population is about twice the other two combined, it's not really that significant.

Quote:

Westminster mightn't be as tolerant with the cash to support a football team when they know their good pals down in Dublin could save them a few bob, just like we do with the rugby

Aye, that's right. The cost saving on the IFA is a top priority for Gordon Brown.
07/12/2009, 2:44 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Not sure about the Republic's fanbase, but the vast majority of Northern Ireland fans I know aren't regular worshipers - in fact, a lot of them are atheists.

Nothing whatsoever to do with how often you attend church/chapel but what religion you were brought up in does have a bearing. For instance, the north of Germany would be culturally protestant, the Bavaria/south catholic and France would be culturally catholic. England would be culturally protestant, Ireland culturally catholic. Northern Ireland is culturally both - and the easiest way of describing these different cultures is to do so by religion.

So, enough of this nonsense about whether you go to church or not as it is irrelevant.
07/12/2009, 2:50 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

Nothing whatsoever to do with how often you attend church/chapel but what religion you were brought up in does have a bearing. For instance, the north of Germany would be culturally protestant, the Bavaria/south catholic and France would be culturally catholic. England would be culturally protestant, Ireland culturally catholic. Northern Ireland is culturally both - and the easiest way of describing these different cultures is to do so by religion.

So, enough of this nonsense about whether you go to church or not being irrelevant.

Well, it's not for me to tell you if it's relevant to you or not.

It's not relevant to me, whatsoever.

I think the problems in Northern Ireland centre on nationality, and national identity. You may hold a different opinion. That's fine.

The "easiest way" isn't always the correct way.

I have absolutely no beef whatsoever with where anyone chooses to say their prayers.
07/12/2009, 2:52 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

Nothing whatsoever to do with how often you attend church/chapel but what religion you were brought up in does have a bearing. For instance, the north of Germany would be culturally protestant, the Bavaria/south catholic and France would be culturally catholic. England would be culturally protestant, Ireland culturally catholic. Northern Ireland is culturally both - and the easiest way of describing these different cultures is to do so by religion

I lived in Germany (fairly equidistant between north and south) for only six months as a student in the 80s, Herr/ Frau Janeymac may have much more experience of the country. I've also visited Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne and Munich (the four largest German cities), some many times. I never really felt the country's culture was particularly religious at all, or had any sense it changed broadly from one part of the country.

Quote:

So, enough of this nonsense about whether you go to church or not being irrelevant

It's irrelevant to NB, me, and most of the NI fans we know. If it's relevant to you, fine, but I suspect we're a bit more representative of NI fans than you are.
07/12/2009, 2:55 PM
bwagner

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Good man, sorry about the abuse. Maybe you should shop in Newry instead ;)

No way mate Newry has been over run by the dubs hehe.
They have ruined it with all the traffic.

But back to subject - I am excited about the up coming youth from both teams.

I think the reason I was asking is because if we were more aware that their are catholic players in the northern team - more southerns would sopport the team. As it is a team for all backgrounds.
07/12/2009, 2:57 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Well, it's not for me to tell you if it's relevant to you or not.

It's not relevant to me, whatsoever.

I think the problems in Northern Ireland centre on nationality, and national identity. You may hold a different opinion. That's fine.

The "easiest way" isn't always the correct way.

I have absolutely no beef whatsoever with where anyone chooses to say their prayers.

I agree with you about the identity of Northern Ireland / unionists. I don't think that is a problem though for NI nationalists. They know who they are.

But its not about saying prayers! Its how you behave. For instance protestant culture would be to shut down on a Sunday and not play games etc. whereas that would not be in the catholic psychic who would regard sport as being a celebration of life.
07/12/2009, 3:02 PM
third policeman

Quote:

Originally Posted by osarusan

By merging the FAI and IFA and having one team, you'd be creating another international team where a sizeable proportion of the population purportedly represented by the team don't actually support it.

Maybe, but we dont have any data on that do we. That's why in an earlier post I suggested that the issue of merger should be the subject of proper consultation in both jurisdictions. If a merged football team did not succeed in commanding broad support then, I agree, from my perspective it would not be a sensible way forward. This is not a scientific poll, but interestingly none of my Unionist friends and relations in the North would have any problem supporting a merged football team, in the same way that they support the Ireland Rugby and cricket teams
07/12/2009, 3:05 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

I lived in Germany (fairly equidistant between north and south) for only six months as a student in the 80s, Herr/ Frau Janeymac may have much more experience of the country. I've also visited Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne and Munich (the four largest German cities), some many times. I never really felt the country's culture was particularly religious at all, or had any sense it changed broadly from one part of the country.

Nothing got to do with church going. Did you not notice that the southern German's were much better crack? I think its something to do with knowing if we confess we will be forgiven for our sins.

Quote:

It's irrelevant to NB, me, and most of the NI fans we know. If it's relevant to you, fine, but I suspect we're a bit more representative of NI fans than you are.

Being culturally a catholic, I wouldn't be representative of NI fans whatsoever probably!
07/12/2009, 3:06 PM
jinxy lilywhite

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwagner

jesus lads its just a question :O)
I have mixed parents so it just interests me as im not from the area (and dont fully understand). I never go to mass.

I think its great to see mixed players and i wear my Norn Iron 82 jersey in Dundalk dispite the abuse :O)

what abuse?????

not saying it doesn't happen but just asking. also don't let the b*stards get you down.

Man I hate religion
07/12/2009, 3:07 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey Mac

But its not about saying prayers! Its how you behave. For instance protestant culture would be to shut down on a Sunday and not play games etc. whereas that would not be in the catholic psychic who would regard sport as being a celebration of life

Come on, apart from voting differently and going to different churches, there are few broad differences between Catholic/ nationalist and Protestant/ unionist Sunday cultural behavior. Both groups go shopping at Sprucefield before sitting time to watch Man U on TV, and so on.

You might have mentioned the IFA's long-term (and embarrassing) unwillingness to sanction Sunday matches. There are a few dinosaurs about, of course.
07/12/2009, 3:09 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

I agree with you about the identity of Northern Ireland / unionists. I don't think that is a problem though for NI nationalists. They know who they are.

But its not about saying prayers! Its how you behave. For instance protestant culture would be to shut down on a Sunday and not play games etc. whereas that would not be in the catholic psychic who would regard sport as being a celebration of life.

As a "Unionist", I can assure you I know exactly who and what I am - I can't speak for other Unionists though.

I genuinely don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't give a flying one about stereotypical differing expressions of religious cultures.

I play/watch sport on a Sunday - it's got nothing to do with "culture" to me.

I do so because I enjoy doing so - if others choose not to, that's entirely up to them. "Culture" will never stop me playing/watching sport on a Sunday.

Perhaps I'm a Protestant with a Catholic phyche?
07/12/2009, 3:14 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

You might have mentioned the IFA's long-term (and embarrassing) unwillingness to sanction Sunday matches. There are a few dinosaurs about, of course.

Aye, dinasaurs who aren't adverse to playing on a Sunday if the dosh is right.;)

If the USA say the proposed friendly will be played at Craven Cottage on a Sunday, and it's worth a million bucks to the IFA (as reported), do you think the dinasaurs will say no?:eek:

Anyway, didn't the IFA relax the rules on Sunday football recently... there's been a few IL games played on a Sunday recently? And rightly so.
07/12/2009, 3:14 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by third policeman

Maybe, but we dont have any data on that do we. That's why in an earlier post I suggested that the issue of merger should be the subject of proper consultation in both jurisdictions. If a merged football team did not succeed in commanding broad support then, I agree, from my perspective it would not be a sensible way forward

An abolished NI team wouldn't command ANY support among NI fans.

Quote:

This is not a scientific poll, but interestingly none of my Unionist friends and relations in the North would have any problem supporting a merged football team, in the same way that they support the Ireland Rugby and cricket teams

If your anecdotal friends and relations (want to) support NI, that's great. If they, conversely, want the team to be abolished, quite obviously they don't, er, support NI. (As you may have read above, I support the Ireland cricket team, but that's as far as the parallel goes).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey Mac

Nothing got to do with church going. Did you not notice that the southern German's were much better crack? I think its something to do with knowing if we confess we will be forgiven for our sins

Actually, I didn't and in my experience they weren't. Maybe because I wouldn't generalise about a huge country based on a short time living there plus a few later holidays. Have you actually ever been there, or just drunk in a theme Hofbrauhaus somewhere outside the country?
07/12/2009, 3:28 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Come on, apart from voting differently and going to different churches, there are few broad differences between Catholic/ nationalist and Protestant/ unionist Sunday cultural behavior. Both groups go shopping at Sprucefield before sitting time to watch Man U on TV, and so on.

You might have mentioned the IFA's long-term (and embarrassing) unwillingness to sanction Sunday matches. There are a few dinosaurs about, of course.

It is said that the GAA saved this country after the civil war when neighbour fought with neighbour. Sport was used to get over political differences and play gaa together for the good of the parish.

Interesting that you only describe British cultural things in common (shopping & Man U). I get the impression from most unionist representatives that they despite Irish culture (music, sport & language). Am I right?
07/12/2009, 3:33 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

It is said that the GAA saved this country after the civil war when neighbour fought with neighbour. Sport was used to get over political differences and play gaa together for the good of the parish.

Interesting that you only describe British cultural things in common (shopping & Man U). I get the impression from most unionist representatives that they despite Irish culture (music, sport & language). Am I right?

Are we not straying from the subject matter somewhat here?
07/12/2009, 3:35 PM
Gather round

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

Interesting that you only describe British cultural things in common (shopping & Man U). I get the impression from most unionist representatives that they despite Irish culture (music, sport & language). Am I right?

Janey, I've tried to answer all the points where I disagree on this thread, but yours are just off the wall. Manchester United are the first or second best supported football club in Ireland. Shopping isn't a British cultural phenomenon, it's going to the shops and buying things. It's Worldwide. You're bonkers :confused:

I guess most unionist politicians are indifferent to much fiddle diddle music, Gaelic sports and the Irish language. A few are hostile, a few others enthusiastic. None of those things are the sole examples of Irish culture in their areas, of course.
07/12/2009, 3:40 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Actually, I didn't and in my experience they weren't. Maybe because I wouldn't generalise about a huge country based on a short time living there plus a few later holidays. Have you actually ever been there, or just drunk in a theme Hofbrauhaus somewhere outside the country?

I've had a few beers in Germany alright - but I'm not basing my opinion completely on that - more so on German music and literature.
07/12/2009, 3:42 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Are we not straying from the subject matter somewhat here?

Subject matter is how do you unite a country behind a team. GAA did that in the republic.
IFA are not doing that in NI.
07/12/2009, 3:48 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gather round

Janey, I've tried to answer all the points where I disagree on this thread, but yours are just off the wall. Manchester United are the first or second best supported football club in Ireland. Shopping isn't a British cultural phenomenon, it's going to the shops and buying things. It's Worldwide. You're bonkers :confused:

I guess most unionist politicians are indifferent to much fiddle diddle music, Gaelic sports and the Irish language. A few are hostile, a few others enthusiastic. None of those things are the sole examples of Irish culture in their areas, of course.

There is nothing wrong with following Man Utd (or shopping) as far as I'm concerned (I get a bit annoyed when Irish people start referring to them as 'we' though!).

The point is, that nationalists are not hostile to British culture in the same way as most unionist politicians (who are elected by protestants/unionists) are downright hostile to Irish culture. Is it any wonder nationalists get ****ed off?
07/12/2009, 3:53 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

GAA did that in the republic.
IFA are not doing that in NI.

The GAA are not "uniting" anything up here - but, that's by the by.

Given the differences of nationality, politics, and expression of same, in Northern Ireland, there is only so far the IFA can go. By nature (ie. team called "Northern Ireland") it ain't going to be everyone's cup of tea. Fair dues.

Denying the existance of the IFA, and supporters of it's International representive team, err, their team, will not solve anything constructively.
07/12/2009, 3:58 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

The point is, that nationalists are not hostile to British culture in the same way as most unionist politicians (who are elected by protestants/unionists) are downright hostile to Irish culture. Is it any wonder nationalists get ****ed off?

Aye - Nationalists/Republicans are "champions" of British culture on the island, right enough.:rolleyes:
07/12/2009, 4:07 PM
The Fly

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

For those who oppose the place called Northern Ireland, they can elect to play for the FAI team, and support it's representative sides.

Those fans/players don't have a sense of statehood/national identity with Northern Ireland. It is big leap in 'logic' to suggest that they also, by extension, oppose it's existance.
07/12/2009, 4:08 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Aye - Nationalists/Republicans are "champions" of British culture on the island, right enough.:rolleyes:

Less of the rolling of the eyes there - British originated sport is played right throughout the island of Ireland. We're also rather good at writing in a British language (especially Seamus Heaney). In fact it would say that Irish writers have done more than anyone else for the English (British) language.

I'm scratching my head to think of any British person who has done anything to champion Irish culture (nor do I expect them to!).
07/12/2009, 4:10 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fly

Those fans/players don't have a sense of statehood/national identity with Northern Ireland. It is big leap in 'logic' to suggest that they also, by extension, oppose it's existance.

They are free to express their sense of "statehood/national identity" by playing for the FAI team, if they so wish.

They will not be seeing the end of our team in consequence.

Those who see their identity better expressed by playing for/supporting Northern Ireland are wholly entitled to that right.

It's about choice.

Perhaps, given they don't oppose it's (Northern Ireland's) existance (as you suggest), they will respect the right of Northern Ireland to have an International football team, called Northern Ireland? That wouldn't be a big leap in "logic", would it?
07/12/2009, 4:13 PM
janeymac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

The GAA are not "uniting" anything up here - but, that's by the by.

Given the differences of nationality, politics, and expression of same, in Northern Ireland, there is only so far the IFA can go. By nature (ie. team called "Northern Ireland") it ain't going to be everyone's cup of tea. Fair dues.

Denying the existance of the IFA, and supporters of it's International representive team, err, their team, will not solve anything constructively.

The IFA were in a position to do something about uniting the two traditions as soccer was already played by both communities. The IFA messed up big time by being political at a time when it should have been neutral.
07/12/2009, 4:14 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

Less of the rolling of the eyes there - British originated sport is played right throughout the island of Ireland. We're also rather good at writing in a British language (especially Seamus Heaney). In fact it would say that Irish writers have done more than anyone else for the English (British) language.

I'm scratching my head to think of any British person who has done anything to champion Irish culture (nor do I expect them to!).

Enjoy your music, enjoy your sport, enjoy your language, enjoy your culture...let others who don't share your enthusiasm be different from you.

None of the things you mentioned do I despise - some I enjoy too.
07/12/2009, 4:15 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

The IFA were in a position to do something about uniting the two traditions as soccer was already played by both communities. The IFA messed up big time by being political at a time when it should have been neutral.

In what way?
07/12/2009, 4:42 PM
The Fly

If one were to take Northern Ireland as an entity, and ask each person "do you think that the two football associations in Ireland, the FAI and IFA, should amalgamate and as a result, produce one representative international football team?", then I would say there would be a good chance of the overall result being - Yes!
But, that is not the point.
If you were to put the same question solely to Northern Ireland fans, in particular NB's block bookers, then the answer, at this time, would be a resounding - No!
Why?
Because, the Northern Ireland international team is one of the only outlets for people of the 'Irish' unionist persuasion in NI, and for the purposes of this discussion - on the island as a whole, to follow or support in any kind of competitive arena.

There is a certain ignorance* on the part of people in the Republic towards NI issues and society in general. If there were a united all-island side tomorrow, almost a sixth of the population within this new jurisdiction would have little or no allegiance to the team and would struggle to identify with it. More importantly, the same applies on the issue of national, political reunification. Is that something desirable? Not to me, it's better to just let things take their course naturally.

* I wouldn't feel much guilt, as in this case - ignorance is most definately bliss! ;)
07/12/2009, 4:44 PM
The Fly

Quote:

Originally Posted by janeymac

I'm scratching my head to think of any British person who has done anything to champion Irish culture (nor do I expect them to!).

James Connolly? :rolleyes:

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