Have to say I agree with all of that, well put by Quinn.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
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Have to say I agree with all of that, well put by Quinn.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
Tbh, it's not a big surprise he reacts, when the central theme to every interview pre-and post game for the past 3 years has been. "This is your last game. Do you think you should go? Should you consider your position?" There are only so many ways you can answer the question.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
Other nationalities must think the idea of firing the coach of a very mediocre side when he's level with the opposition halfway through a campaign is absolutely nuts.
It's impossible to make any concrete predictions about playoff permutations until after September at the earliest.Quote:
Originally Posted by back of the net
Its not for the last 3 years that's a whole load of crap.
You take only half the facts when you argue your case, ignoring certain posts and certain counter-arguments to yours. You selectively debate the points you want or think that suit your argument. Unless you argue point for point, fact for fact, its an imbalanced and distorted view. Actually I think your view is distorted and imbalanced, that's the problem here.
I mean this is just ridiculous:
"Other nationalities must think the idea of firing the coach of a very mediocre side when he's level with the opposition halfway through a campaign is absolutely nuts. "
So how well did the going all out to finish the game when winning, work out in 95, Niall?Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Once Mother Teresa starts criticising you, you know youre in trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
I'm not Niall.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Nice try, Niall. Either answer the question or get back on your spaceship.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Is Toepuke really Niall?
Lets see...Crafty, was/were Niall (you?) born on Oct 6th 1966, Oct 9th 1966, Oct 19th 1966 or Oct 16th 1966?
Conveniently ignored by the Irish meeja.....the Austrian players could control the football, could pass the football, made space on the ball and were comfortable in possession. Largely the Irish players were the opposite. It's not due to the coach, it's due to the largely poor quality training gained by players in the UK and Ireland where the emphasis is on hoof and run, win at all costs (from too young an age) and poor club coaching. It will never be addressed as it's inconvenient to do so.
We were comfortable in possession in Sweden though - at least by our standards. That was only 5 days earlier. Trap set us out to play hoofball from the start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
You're right. For the first two years it was...
"Why aren't you playing Andy Reid Trap?, he's world class you know"
"Why don't you contact Stephen Ireland Trap?, I'm sure he'd come back if he was asked"
"Why don't you try other systems Trap? we seem to get overrun in midfield"
Then when it turned out that Andy Reid didn't even have the dedication to stay in shape, Stephen Ireland was a one season wonder and complete plonker and we qualified for a major tournament without both and with the dated system it changed to....
"Why aren't you playing Wes Hoolahan Trap?, he's world class you know"
"Why don't you contact Darron Gibson Trap?, I'm sure he'd come back if he was asked"
"Why don't you try other systems Trap? we still seem to get overrun in midfield"
The good performance against Sweden nullifies the attitude of 'ah, sure, we only have Northern Ireland/Scotland-standard players who can't pass even if they tried, hoofball is the only possible route to being competitive'. Against Austria, Trap changed the both the personnel and the system to revert to a failed default, and we paid the price.
Kerr and Staunton did exactly the same. Their high-water-marks in terms of performance came, respectively, against France (2004) and Slovakia (2007), when we looked like genuinely decent, competitive sides, capable of keeping possession and creating chances. However, when players became unavailable, both Kerr and Staunton panicked, and instead of keeping with a promising gameplan and replacing players like-for-like in their roles, they reverted to a failed philosophy of 'get our favourite players on the pitch, regardless of position - just fit them in somewhere'. There was no consistency, no definite gameplan, and we inevitably messed up by dropping points against lower-seeded opposition. Both managers paid for it with their jobs.
I see a big similarity with Trap's decisions in the last few games, in terms of refusing to learn the lessons from good performances.
Trap is 150/1 on Paddy Power to be the next permanent manager of Arsenal.
This is exactly the sort of irrelevant interjection this thread needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosby87
The sarcasm totally undermines any point you're trying to make. Nobody thinks Hoolahan is world class but he's a cut above most of what we have at the moment. He could play a role that complements other decent players we have and that would add bodies in midfield, which Keane did to good effect in Sweden. Trap looked a gift horse in the mouth after that game and thought he was being clever playing Sammon, as if he was a hidden gem he'd unearthed by actually bothering to go and watch a game. Meanwhile Kevin Doyle was dropped and a series of incomprensible decisions from the sideline gave Austria a needless advantage. I'm examining my own sanity because of who said it, but Niall Quinn's tactical assessment was bang on.Quote:
Originally Posted by DeLorean
The only point I was trying to make was the constant line of questioning Trap has repeatedly had to answer since taking over. It was a dig at the agenda driven journalists and Dunphy-types, not the average fans like ourselves who believe Hoolahan should be in the team. I'd love to see him start myself and my heart dropped to the pit of my stomach when I saw Sammon in the teamsheet against Austria, with all due respect to the guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
We can't be constructive in every post :)
I agree. The Reid and Stephen Ireland stories drove me mental. There were far more pertinent issues to focus on in Trap's first 3 years or so. As it happens I'm happy to give credit to Trap where it's due and even despite some odd decisions and valid criticisms in the past, I don't think any really ever led us to drop points that we shouldn't have dropped. For example, I thought we gave Slovakia away a right go but were unlucky to only draw 2-2. I thought we were timid at home to Slovakia, but then again Keane missed a sitter on 89 minutes and I think Dunne might have missed an even later chance.
I thought we lacked balls against Bulgaria at home but in hindsight we coasted into second place. I defended our sitting off teams by pointing out that it was a very positive feature of Trap's tenure that we tended to score early. Trap likes to defend a lead rather than build on it, so if we score early we tend to play most of the game playing tentatively.
Why I criticise Trap heavily in this instance is that we blew it against Austria. Yes, some players made individual errors but: Trap ignored lessons from 5 days earlier and also from the Poland game. Trap reverted to hoofball. Trap picked and persisted with a donkey. Trap made dumb substitutions. I'm livid with how Trap conducted operations for the Austria game, and unlike some I'd have had grave concerns had we won 2-1. I'd have been delighted with the win but concerned that Trap was happy with how it was won and that'd he'd stick with the template.
QUOTE=Spudulika;1680880]Conveniently ignored by the Irish meeja.....the Austrian players could control the football, could pass the football, made space on the ball and were comfortable in possession. Largely the Irish players were the opposite. It's not due to the coach, it's due to the largely poor quality training gained by players in the UK and Ireland where the emphasis is on hoof and run, win at all costs (from too young an age) and poor club coaching. It will never be addressed as it's inconvenient to do so.[/QUOTE]
I do believe it is down to the coach to a large degree. We don't have any world class players in our squad, but we do have a core of good/very good premier league players in our team. McCarthy, Long, McGeady, Coleman and Hoolahan are all technically gifted players. McClean, Walters and Wilson less so, but they bring other vital qualities to the team. In the case of McCarthy and Coleman, we have two lads that will go right to the very top in my opinion.
We have players that can play football and are technically proficient. Man for man, we are a better team than Austria (although we don't have a player anywhere near the class of Alaba) and at least on a par with Sweden. The core issue is that Trap doesn't believe in Irish players and is reluctant to play guys like Hoolahan that do offer us the ability to play a different way. His ridiculous decision to not play McCarthy in Stockholm summed all that is wrong with him (thankfully Whelan suffered an injury and macca played).
The players at Dortmund or Bayern are on a different level to our lads, but I stand by my opinion that as a team, we have a core of players every bit as technical, if not more so than Austria, Bulgaria, Sweden, and many other of the 2/3rd/4th seeded countries we tend to compete with to qualify for tournaments.
Comparing us to Northern Ireland, is probably akin to comparing us to England. For me that is a poor comparison. The North have 2-3 good/very good players like Evans, Brunt and McCauley. To be fair, we don't have a player with the big match experience of Johnny Evans. The rest play in the lower leagues or for the less celebrated teams in the SPL. Our team is predominantly a premier league based team. On paper that is a massive difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Surely John O'Shea has more big match experience than Evans.
Of course he does. Ignoring O'Shea's achievements is cool. It's cool in the same way that saying Carrick and Evans have been integral to United's success this season, in the same way that it wasn't cool in prior years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I miss those United days.
http://i.imgur.com/pYdk6.gif
Trap wont be in the Ireland job for long............just been nominated for Italian President
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpuVy...ature=youtu.be
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:A...AFggOa2L2qRbNk
Vote A me. I make-a da tres rula. Tomato.
une: vota me.
de: no-a fats. no a fat the women. no a fat the anyone, messy, no a listen. Andy Reid he no a listen. Exile. Elba, Napolean. Fat.
Tres: Pick how a I want da ministera. Pick da playa. Mess the Darwin, Mess the Geysir. Stutts almost hava heart coronary. Me no a care. Do what's bessa da team. No cara dumb fan. Da Italy. Stubborn. Still gotta chanca. No worry. Some lika.
Da Doc He-a love me a. Some say he-a Sledge-a. He no say.
When I first started watching our games, we played 4-4-2 and lumped the ball 40 yards up the pitch. These days, we play 4-4-2 and lump the ball 40 yards up the pitch. In those days, we dressed it up as "put 'em under pressure". Today, it's spun as "dinosaur football, giving possession away".Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
Our players don't have technical ability. Our coaching system in this country doesn't encourage it. We want to play the British style of football, and now the overall quality of player is decreasing, with little European experience at club level, and some who can't get regular games every week. So sticking to our 4-4-2, and lump it 40 yards up the pitch is usually the most effective for us.
Right, so where do Millwall, Wolves, Derby, and Leeds play their football? And there's more of where they come from too.Quote:
The North have 2-3 good/very good players like Evans, Brunt and McCauley. To be fair, we don't have a player with the big match experience of Johnny Evans. The rest play in the lower leagues or for the less celebrated teams in the SPL. Our team is predominantly a premier league based team. On paper that is a massive difference.
The Brits up there are absolutely hopeless. They have someone in charge who goes to games every week, yet can't win a game. They've been a laughing stock for the past 25 years, and have no prospect of ever getting to another tournament. I don't think their way of doing things is a model we should aspire to.
Returning to Quinn's piece, his "analysis" is laughable. This is someone who had his chance and lost every single game going. Trap has won everything in the game, got us 26 results in 29 qualifiers, and hauled this team to the biggest stage of the European game. Frankly, Quinn really isn't in a position to advise him on what he should do.
Mypost you are entitled to your opinion. It is a football forum after all :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Okay, our number 1 plays with Millwall. Most of the rest of our starting line up is premier league based players and starters at that. You mention Leeds/Derby? I'm guessing you are talking about Paul Green and Sammon. Paul Green should be nowhere near our starting line up (despite an excellent performance in Sweden). That is precisely the point of most posters on here who question trap. Guys with real talent like McCarthy can be dropped for the likes of Green. Sammon likewise should be nowhere near our squad, let alone our first eleven. Likewise, he can often be talked up by Trap above good strikers like Long and Walters. The other Derby player is Hendrick, who in my opinion is going to be an excellent player for us. Good on Trap calling him into the Poland squad.
It has become increasingly trendy among many to mock the premiership, just as it has been trendy for many barstoolers to mock the League of Ireland over the past 20 or 30 years. However, the league is one of the best in the world, despite being badly overtaken by the Germans and Spanish this year, and Premiership teams don't have Irish players in them, because they like us, they have us there, because we have lads that can do a job for them. How many players do Austria have playing at that level week in week out (bar a few I reckon we have a fair few more). I would argue that Stoke or Norwich offers more big game experience to a player on a week to week basis than say Austria Vienna etc, even taking into account not having the chance to play in the Champions League/Europa League.
As an aside to how poor we are technically, I would challenge you to go down to watch St Kevin's and Crumlin United schoolboy teams. I think you would come back very refreshed that alot is happening at grassroots level that is right. Indeed, the less famous clubs like Lucan United, Templeogue United and Portmarnock are also producing some fabulous players. There is alot that is good in our game and I think that we need to have a bit more self-esteem about our players, especially the younger ones. Of course, we have a long history of producing very technically gifted players, but like England with Waddle, Hoddle and Barnes, we have tended not to use them very well.
Norwich haven't played in Europe for 20 years. They faced 4-4-2 Stoke last weekend. The decisive goal came from the 40 yard lump, the flick on, and the tap in. That's how Whelan and Walters earn their living every year, and the kind of football we Irish grow up playing and watching. Kevin Doyle faces the prospect of even lower league football than Conor Sammon next season, yet Sammon is w/o and Doyle is championed. We currently have one player that plays CL football, which isn't even in England. There's no Alaba or Ibrahimovic for us to call upon, but you and others tell me our players are as good, if not better than the opposition in our group, and if we can't match them, it's Trap's fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
Many will only realise how well he's done for us when he is gone, when the real ability of the players is shown up, and we are finally at the neighbours level.
This is something I've been thinking myself, and we might not realise it until we lose an away qualifier, or finish 3rd or lower in a qualifying seriesQuote:
Originally Posted by mypost
be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.
We are currently 4th in our group. Sweden in third have a game in hand on us. Germany are out of sight. The grass isn't always greener but we're standing in muck as it is.
Simple question: in all seriousness do you think Sammon is anywhere near as good as Doyle?Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
We matched Sweden, playing a more progressive style of football. We handled Ibrahimovic quite competently. There was promise in that system, and that performance. Yet against lower-seeded opposition, we reverted to hoofball and conceded the initiative.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Another question - are we Latvia? Should we be just happy to live off one fortuitous qualification and resign ourselves to mediocrity forever more? We have only finished outside the top three in a qualifying group once in the last twenty-six years - and even then (2006), we were only three points from topping the group. There has only been one qualifying group in that time (2008) when we went into our last game with nothing to play for. For a team like us, the margins between qualifying and not qualifying are often extremely slim, and the primary job of the Irish manager is to ensure that we don't throw it away against the lower seeds. We deserve at least that.
The player pool has changed in that we don't have players playing for top clubs, but the dynamic of the EPL, and where/how that league sources its players, has changed. For example, was Jeff Kenna a much better right-back than Steve Finnan or Seamus Coleman, simply by virtue of having an EPL winner's medal? Not in my opinion - the EPL was a lot weaker back then. We go on about Irish players playing for top clubs back in the day, but that was back when the English champions could be knocked out of Europe by Trelleborgs, Legia Warsaw and IFK Gothenburg. Players like McCarthy, Clark, Coleman, Wilson, O'Shea, Hoolahan, Gibson, McGeady, Walters and Long are good Irish players by most standards that I've seen in the last 22 years.
We do not have a player as good as either Alaba or Ibra. However, I would say man for man we have players that are better than both Sweden and Austria. George Best was one of the greatest players of all time, but I wouldn't say the Northern Irish teams of his era were necessarilly feared. One man of outstanding ability doesn't make a team. In fact, pre Jack we had several truly world class players and we were a mediocre team.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Yes, we have only one player in the Champions League. However, it probably doesn't tell the full story. Suarez is one of the best players of his generation and he might not be guaranteed playing even Europa League next season, if he stays with Liverpool. Lads like Coleman and McCarthy are certainly good enough for the Champions League and I would also say Long is. You get teams like Austria Vienna sometimes getting into the group stages of the Champions League, but I would be skeptical if they are better teams than Norwich. Certainly, I would think guys like Hoolahan get more from playing for a team like Norwich on a week to week basis than if they were playing for Austria Vienna, albeit playing 6 games in the Champions League group stages.
I don't particularly rate Doyler that highly at the moment. A few years ago, I would have viewed him the way I view Shane Long now - a very good premiership player. However, I think he's leagues better than Conor Sammon. Personally, I would not have either anywhere near the first 11 at the current time. That is part of my criticism of Trap. Guys like Sammon and Green are championed by Trap at the expense of fellas like Long and McCarthy.
I thought Trap brought a huge amount to the job in his first few years. He made us a very competent team and very difficult to beat, after the debacle of Stan's reign. However, while I respect him for his initial work, I would have major concerns about his ability to take this team forward.
Great post. Have to agree with pretty much all of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
they are good Irish players alright but are in a team made up of good and not so good. throw in the great players like the keanes, duff, given etc at their height (as wc 2002 era) and you cross the fine line of being justified in expecting qualification. we dont have even one great player at the moment. did we even have one of our players in the PFA teams of the year last night? dont think so. how often did that happen in the 90s and early 2000s??Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
Fair point about the talent that was there around the early 2000s. We were blessed with a great batch of players. Have to be honest though, I think Coleman would have been a good shout to get in the PFA team and I cannot for the life of me understand how McCarthy didn't get nominated in the young player category. Welbeck didn't particularly stand out and Wilshere barely kicked a ball. Nastasic should have been there as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbyrne
You see the same hyped players get nominated every year because a lot of footballers don't actually watch other teams play, they just have a general idea of who their managers highlight as danger men and they just nominate the guys who look the best rather than actually judging players on form.
True, I don't understand how a guy like Michu didn't get nominated for player of the year. I must be missing something with Carrick. I think he's nothing more than a good player. On the BBC, a few days ago, they had people mailing in their greatest ever Fergie 11. I couldn't believe that Carrick got in quite a few teams when you think of some of the midfielders they have had under Ferguson.
The English tend to go wildly over the top in their praise for a technically-competent English player, mo more than ourselves with Hoolahan, Andy Reid, etc.
Many on both sides of the Irish Sea are still in shock that those neanderthals from Munich were allowed to get away with their bully-boy tactics on the prodigiously cultured talent Jack Wilshere.
Sammon's performance against Austria was much better imo than against Poland. Doyle is more experienced, yet his form has slipped alarmingly since Christmas, and is facing a double relegation with his club. So why should he be ahead of anyone in the pecking order to face anyone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
We collected the full quota of 18 points against the lower seeds last time, 3 of them in a place we never won before, and another 3 where nobody else won at all. It was derided as "easy".Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
The last time we fired a coach who got us to a finals, we missed out on tournaments for 10 years. That may seem like yesterday, when the time comes that we're struggling to finish fourth in groups, like others closer to home are these days. The "comfort" of the coach hitting the highways and byways of England every week won't be much consolation.
Despite not playing well for his club Doyle scored the winner against Kazakhstan. Despite being relegated last year Doyle was immense against Italy. If you go to the Tony Grealish thread and Junior's link to the Eoin Hand interview you'll hear Hand saying some players raise their game for international football. Grealish did it, Kenny Cunningham did it, Sean St. Ledger does it regularly. Club form often counts for little in international football and Doyle hasn't suddenly deteriorated as a player because Wolves are a shambles. Regardless of where Wolves are in the table Doyle should be ahead of Sammon because on all objective counts he is a better player, a better athlete, a proven international and even when playing badly he's never a passenger. Cox is a better player than Sammon and has shown he can play at that level when picked upfront.
We're clearly not going to agree with each other. I hate, really hate, knocking Irish players and especially likeable hard working players, but Sammon was alarmingly off the pace and pitch of the ball against Austria, and I think that Doyle, Cox, and probably Leon Best and even Andy Keogh should have ranked ahead of him. They have all done a job for Trap in the recent enough past and Sammon's selection was Trap saying he does go and look at unglamourous games to look at our players now. If Sammon is good enough to be our 3rd best striker at Derby, then why not when in the Premier League?