what do you see as the most likely outcome for derry kev
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what do you see as the most likely outcome for derry kev
Very had to tell, but with Cork in seemingly worse trouble, my guess is Derry will fold before they get refused a licence.Quote:
Originally Posted by belfastred
Breach of contract with their players means everyone can leave on a free. No league rules though.Quote:
Have they broke any of the rules yet?
To get a licence, they need to have either (a) paid the players or (b) come to an agreement with them. This will come to a head in January or so.Quote:
I take it not paying players does break the rules?
Only someone with access to their accounts could say for sure, but it has to be close if they can't afford wages at the moment.Quote:
Will they have broken the 65% rule as well?
This must be done by November 30thQuote:
Originally Posted by John83
That is a difficult one passerby as no one seems to know the level of debt we are talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by passerrby
I have heard wildy varying figures of us to several hundred thousand pounds sterling, but until the board released figures then we are all basing it on our own rough and ready predictions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MariborKev
Ive done it before, and swore i wouldnt do it again. Its obvious the more everyone does the merrier however we really need to address how we cut current monthy outgoings asap. Otherwise a collection will be required every week until January. Dont like to knock an idea, it has to be admired but in reality will a collection pay one player one weeks wages ?
Is there not a second deadline? Or is that just for audited accounts or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by micls
On the face of it, that Statement seems clear enough, but am I the only one who wonders about some of the language McDaid is using?Quote:
Originally Posted by SMorgan
McDaid has made clear he is not in favour of a return to the Irish League.
"We don't feel there is a great wave of opinion in favour of returning to the Irish League," McDaid told the BBC.
Given a free choice, that much is undoubtedly true, However, the prospect of DCFC returning to the IL is only being speculated on because they may not be free to choose i.e. if they have broken certain key LOI Rules, they might not receive a Licence, or might even fold before then, in which case they might have to consider the IL?
"We're a member of the League of Ireland and a very proud member at that."
Understandably so, but that hardly adds to the debate.
"An awful lot of the discussion and debate is centred around our current financial difficulties as opposed to any great genuine desire to return to the Irish League"
It's nothing to do with "desire", rather it's whether those "financial difficulties" might force a return to the IL.
"As a chairman and at a board level...it's certainly not something that is on our agenda at this point in time."
Why add "at this point in time"? Had he stopped at "agenda", that would have drawn a line under it. Perhaps he's leaving himself "wriggle room"?
McDaid added that club officials are continuing to make strenuous efforts to alleviate the financial difficulties which have led to players not receiving some of their wages in recent months.
"At this point in time, we're working on the basis that we can resolve our difficulties.
The main reason we are in the difficulties that we are in at the moment isn't because of bus journeys to Dublin or Cork
"We're very much aiming to be in the Premier Division of the League of Ireland next season and we're still holding out hopes of qualifying for Europe."
McDaid also hinted that the club would be keen to show loyalty to a League which welcomed them with "open arms" back in 1985.
"That was a real lifeline and a real saviour to get the club moving again back in 1985"
"While we are facing traumatic difficulties at the moment and we are certainly facing a huge uphill struggle to pull through, it doesn't mean that you have to review the very existence of how the club operates."
McDaid added that travel costs was not the main contributory factor to Derry's current problems.
"The main reason we are in the difficulties that we are in at the moment isn't because of bus journeys to Dublin or Cork. It goes a lot deeper than that."
All very true, no doubt, except that if the "uphill struggle" becomes too great to overcome, they might be forced to "review... ...how the club operates" etc.
At no point does McDaid simply state that it will not come to that.
(Plus he slips in another "at this point in time")
McDaid believes that Derry are likely to be facing Irish League teams in an All-Ireland League within the next decade.
"It won't happen next year or maybe four or five years but I think it (All-Ireland League) is inevitable if we are going to have a proper, successful and ultimately full-time league."
OK, I'm very possibly straying into "Outer Limits" territory here, but might McDaid be softening the blow for DCFC fans, just in case the club has to revert to the IL sometime sooner?
After all, with the Platinum fiasco, doubts over the Setanta Cup's future and the present economic crisis mitigating against full-time football in Ireland (however organised), surely an All-Ireland League is further away than seemed possible even a year or two ago, not closer?
Certainly DCFC's hopes of being a f-t time member of any such League have receded quite some way since then.
Second deadline is for audited accounts, 31st JanuaryQuote:
Originally Posted by John83
We still have not managed to file accounts for Y.E Nov 08 with Companies House yet......
That must be racking up penalties at this stage?Quote:
Originally Posted by MariborKev
technacally your right but if you can get an agreement 20 mins before the licence committe meets you ll be fine, its the FAI wayQuote:
Originally Posted by micls
EG - what is it with the ongoing assumption that we might be forced to join the IL ? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
It's a more likely scenario that, if the current club wasn't given a license for the LOI, that it would go 'bang' and a new one would form and be given an LOI license.
It wouldn't be the first time it's happened in the league, and the fact that we're based in the north is frankly irrelevant so long as the other clubs want us in the LOI - which they do.
The only real speculation I've ever heard on DCFC returning the the IL is from non-DCFC people. That's not speculation - it's wishful thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by belfastred
You would be right to say we HAD special dispensation.
Since 1992 European law has changed to mean that we no longer need such dispensation to be based in one EU jurisdiction and ply our trade in another.
I'm not assuming anything, merely speculating whether it might somehow come to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
And as I noted earlier, to put an end to such speculation, all McDaid had to do was simply state:
"We do not want to go back, we do not intend to go back, nor do we need to go back. And neither will that situation change" (or somesuch).
Which is what I'm unsure about. If a club in one incarnation is ineligible for an LOI Licence, can they simply walk away from their debts and obligations etc, then turn up the next day under another name and blithely receive a new Licence?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
I think I'm correct in saying that the loophole whereby Coleraine did just that in the IL was promptly closed, to prevent its re-occurrence.
Anyhow, what on earth is the point of Licensing, if clubs can make a mockery of it in such a fashion?
The relevance of your being an NI club is that if for some reason you could not compete in the LOI, you might still be eligible to apply to (re)join the IL - unlike all the other LOI clubs. That's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Would Liam Coyle be a "non-DCFC person"?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Anyhow, speaking solely for myself, I strongly suspect that the FAI will fudge it if need be, in order to keep DCFC in the LOI.
But if they cannot/will not, then I don't mind owning up to wishing that DCFC were back in the IL, just as I wish they had never felt compelled to withdraw from it in the first place.
After all, welcoming someone back is hardly insulting or abusing them...
A new 'Derry City' could apply for entry into the A Championship (the third tier), and would have to pass the licence conditions for that level, like any club outside the league can. I'm pretty sure that there was a rule change recently that clubs who reform without paying their debts can't keep their place in the league.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Yep, after us doing it in 1995.Quote:
Originally Posted by Schumi
If the company goes, the license goes and its back to A championship
Our problem is spending money we don't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I can't see how re-joining the IL is a solution to that.
The whole IL thing is either an unhelpful smokescreen (my view) or a naive panacea (a kinder persons view) to what we desperately need to find out asap, which is how deep the hole we've dug ourselves is.
As Kev said above, even our shareholders are left clasping to anecdotal stories and back of fag packet calculations to try to compute a survival percentage.
I'm a pessimistic crank at the best of times and I've been accused of crying wolf for long enough on dcchat to stop posting on there for over a season (until this week) so maybe I'm creating a storm in a teacup by myself, but my best guess is that we're as screwed as Cork, with a few additional twists.
1) HRMC don't do ****pot settlements (Rovers take note). Never have, not going to start with an organisation that has gone to the wall twice in less than two decades before this latest "situation".
2) Almost every wealthy businessman in Derry who has a passing interest in football has been burnt to a major degree by "investing" in DCFC since we came back into football. Literally millions have been invested with not only no return on capital, but no return on principal either. The well is dry, unless sentiment overcomes one of the poor buggers who has been tapped before, and more the fools them.
The bottom line is that Derry and Cork have had the biggest attendences over the past 5 years and should've automatically been in a position to be the best run clubs in the League by dint of the revenue that produced. Instead they just got dragged into some kind of mutually assured destruction pact with the other usual suspects.
When a horse falls in a race a vet needs to make a quick decision whether it can go back to racing or whether it would be inhumane to keep it alive as a shadow or its former self and you put a bullet in it (a bolt?) and start with a new horse.
I'd say we're right there and it would be nice if our Board actually gave us, the shareholders and the fans, the information to inform this decision.
According to this
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-14544944.html
Derry City are looking for advanced payment of their prize money for coming 3rd or 4th.
The FAI can't do this as the club maybe deducted points or even relegated if it did not comply with the 65% cap. It this were the case (and how could it not be?) then Derry City won't be entitled to the prize money that they are looking for an advance payment on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
ORA - Has there been any talk of shareholders calling an EGM to ask the Board what the situation is ? Do you know how many/what percentage is required to do this ?
With season's end upon us, perhaps forcing the Board's hand to reveal the situation is worth considering.
Would the argument in favour of joining the IL be that, both in terms of travel costs and costs needed to be a competitive team in the league, you'd be spending less money that you don't have?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Still, I can't see it happening. The LOI wants you, and you want the LOI.
All they need is love.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Love is all they need.
But that's pure conjecture.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
You're assuming firstly that the LOI continues to see spending ad infinitum at an unsustainable level, and secondly that the Irish League at no future point falls susceptible to that same madness.
Firstly - we have consistently been one of the best supported clubs in the league since 1985. In a league where clubs spent within their means, we should be up there challenging for honours on a regular basis by dint of support alone. If we assume that the league won't continue with the current madness - and it would seem that there aren't any crazy spenders left to go bang once Bohs, Cork, Drogs and City face-up to their current circumstances* - then why would the IL be any easier for us to compete than a more rational LOI ?? :confused:
Secondly - what's to stop Glentoran starting an arms race in the IL ? What's to stop Portadown being taken over by a sugar daddy all starry-eyed about Europe ? More conjecture to challeneg your conjecture.
So the simplest response to all of this is thus : we are not going back to the Irish League - regardless of what moot, conjecture-laden, pigs might fly arguements people can dream up to support it.
:ball:
*Ignoring the spectre of Fingal for the moment, as they may be slow learners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianw82
And about £150k
is it not the case that derry like other premier clubs have received a large amount of potential prize money and considering that they might have outstanding financial issues with the fai like registation fees or referees fees there might be no prize money left for them to get.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMorgan
No. My understanding is that prize money for league finishes isn't doled out until the wage cap issue, and any points deductions, has been dealt with.Quote:
Originally Posted by passerrby
European participation money has been forward lent to some clubs.
Just what this thread needs - more conjecture....Quote:
Originally Posted by passerrby
Unless you're Cork City.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Apparently so.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
It wouldn't be.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Rather, it could be a solution to DCFC's next problem. That is, if they cannot resolve their immediate financial problem and go bust, then it may be that they will not qualify for a LOI Licence next season.
And if that left the 'A' League as their only option, it might be thought preferable to apply to re-join the IL instead.
Of course there are lots of "ifs" involved there, plus it is well known that given a free choice, DCFC would much prefer to stay within the LOI.
But assuming short-termism is one of the problems which has got DCFC into their present mess, I suspect that forward thinking, if only on a contingency basis, will be needed to get them out.
And where are DCFC going to get the money for a new horse, when they haven't even paid their last vet's bill?Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
Perhaps they might be better advised to give the old horse a breather, nurse it back to some sort of health at home in the stables and then enter it in a more modest standard of racing, rather than trying to take on the Grand National fences at Aintree each year...
(Btw, can someone call a Linguist? There's a metaphor here that has been stretched to breaking point and should be put out of its misery...;))
Where in the IL ladder would a new club join?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Is there any really difference between starting anew in the A League or in the IFA Championship?
That is some peoples argument, but they are wrong (imo). As I see it, DCFC may be forced to consider the IL as being more financially viable than the 'A' League.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Agree that if DCFC and the FAI can possibly arrange it, then DCFC will be in the LOI next season.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
But if I were one of their fans, I would be very concerned that they might not be able to "swing it".
Stories of unpaid wages and transfer fees etc are bad enough, but as Maribor Kev points out, they haven't even filed their Company A/C's for 2008. In which case, it is very possible (likely?) that they're behind with the Inland Revenue.
And as ORA correctly states, the IR is taking an increasingly hard line with football clubs, including even small ones like Chester City and Accrington Stanley, so DCFC cannot really expect sympathy from that quarter.
You are seriously living in cloud cuckoo land ! Although the situation is serious and creates alot of debat etc on football forums you will have something different to talk about next week. The mess will be resolved in some form or another, and its not me with my head in the sand, i know 2 Directors personally and have every faith in them in regards to our strategy over the next month or two. The fact is whether or not some IL fans would want us back or whether some LOI clubs/fans would like to see the back of us (cant imagine too many) we will remain part of the domestic league in the South. For the FAI there is more benefits of us remaining in the league than leaving it.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
For 90%+ of Derry fans the IL would be a bad dream/nightmare and would actually result in the vast majority giving up their support of the club. Personally i would rather we ceased to exist completely than play in that league - and before you say it, not just because of the sectarian nature of your league. But in hindsight, do i want to listen to a bunch of muppets sing GSTQ or burn my national flag every week - feck that ! Had enough of that last month.
I personally would not like to see Derry return to the IL (ffs like :D) but agree that the future outlook for the club is bleak.
How do you make that out? You do realise that the A Championship is regionalised so the difference in transport costs would be minimal. Then again you'd have to factor in the increase in "other costs" that a return to the IL would entail ......Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
I suspect that the LOI will now retreat from previously unsustainable spending levels, if nothing else through complete lack of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
The question is whether DCFC will still be around to participate in this new dispensation.
What was that you were saying about "conjecture" at the start of your post?Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Where is your evidence that the IL will fall prey to this, especially with their having seen what unsustainable spending by their Southern neighbours has done?
Quite honestly, after years of certain LOI fans looking down on the IL for being unambitious and "small town" etc, it's a bit rich for someone now to suggest that they're suddenly going to start "chasing the dream" - and in the middle of a recession at that! :rolleyes:
Leaving aside the possibility of DCFC nor being allowed to compete in the LOI next season (or even being around?), it stands to reason that if the finances were sorted out so that both Leagues were properly run, on a p-t basis, then DCFC could expect to be more genuinely competitive in the IL than the LOI.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
After all, haven't you been telling us for years that the standard of football in the LOI is so much higher than the IL?
Dear oh dear. You don't know much about the Glens, do you? The fact is that due to previous incompetence by the Board etc (inc trying to compete with the IFA-subsidised Linfield), the club is £600k in debt. However, this is secured against the Oval, which they own and which despite being decrepit as a football ground, is still potentially very valuable for development purposes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Moreover, unlike eg Bohs or Pats, the Glens have been just about managing that debt for some years, chiefly by refusing to get drawn into an "arms race". (Keith Gillespie was only signed, for example, on condition that a sponsor would cover his wages. Plus they desist from prioritising Europe, despite the sneers which follow heavy defeats etc). At the same time, they are the current IL Champions (and Setanta Runners-Up), so arguably they haven't suffered too much from their economising
Anyhow, whilst there is no money even to give the place a lick of paint, never mind "go nuclear", the Board at last looks to be living within its means and should not be forced to sell the Oval until it is ready to move to an alternative (Blanchflower Park has already been identified, though I'd say it's a long way off).
And it seems you know even less about the Ports...Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
In fact, they already are owned by a "Sugar Daddy" of sorts, Bobby Jameson (though that's not how many people might describe him!)
Anyhow, after years of spending on players and wages to try and keep up with the "Big Two", Jameson has cut back on that, deciding instead to rebuild Shamrock Park completely, with three brand new stands, plus other improvements (new floodlights, training facilities etc).
When they screwed up with their application for the new Irish Premier League, some people feared that this would banjax the whole scheme; however, the floodlights are installed, two new Stands have been completed and the third has been deferred. Assuming this last goes ahead, Shamrock Park will arguably be better than any LOI ground bar Tallaght and possibly Turners Cross (though at least it will have a team to play in it)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamrock_Park
http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium...shamrock.shtml
The only people who appear to imagine that pigs might fly are those people at the Brandywell who have spent years imagining that the laws of (economic) gravity somehow don't apply to them...Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Your confidence and loyality is touching. But do you know what this 2 month strategy that you have every faith in consists of? Or is it that much maligned concept of "blind faith"?Quote:
Originally Posted by dortie
That's quite ironic coming from you :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
If it came to it (and I agree it's a huge "if"), I suspect the IFA would try to find some way of accommodating them in the Premier, rather than the Championship.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
You may have a point there.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
However, I'd say the Irish League Championship is a good deal nearer the Irish Premier League than it is to the 'A' League, which I understand to be a mixture of LOI Reserve teams and what in Irish League terms would be called Intermediate clubs.
In any case, even if DCFC's crowds and sponsorship in the Championship were little more than in the 'A' League, at least their travelling expenses would be much lower. Plus they would only be one promotion away from the top division, not two.
Have I upset you in some way?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rovers Maniac
Good luck to them on that front. Given there was a row over who'd take Bangor's place, I'd say there's be a row here too. I don't know if there's any precedent for jumping a team straight in at the top flight of any league. And there's also no reason to suppose there'd be an opening at Championship level.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
On the A League, Derry would (if it came to it) be in a regionalised Northern section, which would help reduce travelling significantly. For example, Derry's A team group this year is Salthill (Galway), Drogheda, Harps, Castlebar (Mayo), Tullamore (Offaly), Dundalk, Sligo and Galway. The potential crowd against Harps would possibly make up for any increase in travel or reduction in number of games played and associated gate receipts.Quote:
However, I'd say the Irish League Championship is a good deal nearer the Irish Premier League than it is to the 'A' League, which I understand to be a mixture of LOI Reserve teams and what in Irish League terms would be called Intermediate clubs.
I honestly wouldn't think there'd be much difference in standard between the A League and the Championship, although I've only been to one Championship game (and that involved Portadown). UCD won the A League last year and this year are going for the First Division title with about seven or eight of that league winning team. Mervue came third of eight in their A group last year and survived the First Division comfortably enough. The A League isn't that bad. In any event, I don't think the quality of the league would be relevant as either way, Derry wouldn't intend on staying there.
You may or may not be correct - I personally do not know. Then again, I've not been prescriptive in anything I've posted, merely (openly) speculative.Quote:
Originally Posted by dortie
Your club, your opinion, your entitlement.Quote:
Originally Posted by dortie
which is a great pity because there was some chance on the "Love".......;)Quote:
Originally Posted by MariborKev