Shane Ferguson

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Originally Posted by mastershake

the governing body there haven't been arsed about changing to a more politically correct and meaningful national anthem

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Er, it's both politically popular with the fans, at least more so than any suggested equivalent (my own would be Them's 'Gloria') and meaningful (everyone knows what it means). If fans in Wales, Scotland and the Irish Republic prefer alternative tuneless dirges that's fine, but does it really matter that much what they think?

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How players from nationalist communities can stand and listen to that before a match is beyond me

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Nobody's forcing them. It only lasts about a minute, they can blank it out (as I've done in the 40 odd years I've been watching NI games).

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Sort the IFA out into being a less sectarian organisation

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It isn't any more sectarian than any other international football set-up. It symbols etc. reflect broadly what the fans want even if they're mildly irritating to non fans.

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maybe just maybe there wont be as many 'deserters' to the south

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Maybe, though I doubt that the flag/ anthem at Windsor make any difference to this. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence on this forum than NI-based RoI fans support the latter because they identify with it, usually as their families have for generations. They wouldn't change if the IFA hired a new musical and interior design director.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Being unnecessarily triumphalist...wouldn't be the most prudent of official stances either

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Agreed. Not until a triumph has been achieved, at least ;). See you in D4 at the end of May.

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Anyway, personally, I'm just delighted that Ferguson looks set to finally declare for his second country. ;)

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Aye, I'm sure he'll settle quickly with all the English and Scots in the set-up.

Presumably, you mean, the last sentence refers to his time with the North??
;)

And you told me you weren't going anywhere near D4....
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Agreed. Not until a triumph has been achieved, at least ;). See you in D4 at the end of May.



Aye, I'm sure he'll settle quickly with all the English and Scots in the set-up.

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You're beginning to sound irrational again and nasty as well. Maybe Don was right in what he said and we will continue to use the North as our own little nursery!

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Maybe, but think a lot of people seem to be overstating his influence. For once I wouldn't agree 100% with DI, but will cede once again to his more articulate response.

And even if Givens is doing what his critics suggest, to me it's 'fair game' in the general scheme of things. Especially in the overall context of what's preceded this.
Do you think anyone would behave differently under the same circumstances??

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I suppose what I mean to say is that I don't think it's helpful to allow the attachment of this notion or baggage to a player's decision which construes it as doing some party a favour at the expense of another. Players ought to be left to decide independently and on their own terms and not be made feel like they owe something to sets of football associations or fans who are just as self-interested as anyone else. What Givens says, however, appears to - maybe unwittingly, if he's to be granted the benefit of the doubt - reinforce the misguided notion that the FAI are out to serve the IFA harm and ill-will, and worse, he's directly implicating the northern-born players who decide to play for us in that. He also happens to demean their motives and makes them sound like pawns or tactical chips in a game where the aim is not only to better yourself, but to take satisfaction in ensuring damage is done to your "enemy" in the process.

I know if they hadn't closed Ferguson's thread on OWC due to the speculation of previous weeks, they'd be venting fury there over Givens' quip right now.

I suppose in the aftermath of the IFA having breached the concord between the two associations by bringing Daniel Kearns, the FAI and FIFA to CAS, you could argue Givens may be somewhat justified if it's intentional, but, in the interests of the FAI appearing to be a professional and competent association, it really doesn't look good for official purposes. It all just comes across as a bit smarmy.

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Originally Posted by mastershake

I have no sympathy for the north losing out on players especially as the governing body there haven't been arsed about changing to a more politically correct and meaningful national anthem. How players from nationalist communities can stand and listen to that before a match is beyond me. I mean Neil Lennon did his level best and look at the treatment he's been getting. Sort the IFA out into being a less sectarian organisation and maybe just maybe there wont be as many 'deserters' to the south.Till such a time I don't think northern fans can have to many grievances.

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Symbolism is obviously an issue that garners much more attention in NI than it would in other societies with more peaceful recent histories, but I really don't know if the anthem is actually the issue here. I think it's just a strawman that people use to further damn the IFA or something with which they kid themselves in order to appear like they're offering the IFA a neat solution. Identity is also a critical issue and many nationalists just don't and won't identify with NI as an entity so long as it will always be inherently British whilst it exists.

For most of my friends in Derry, the idea of supporting NI would just never have crossed their minds. It wasn't a case of consciously deciding not to support NI because the idea was objectionable to them and then supporting Ireland as a reaction to that or as the next best option; they support Ireland and always have done whether a team organised by the IFA exists or not because they identify with Ireland rather than Britain culturally. The IFA team is just an irrelevancy really, for want of a better description, and are viewed as just another team in international football; not someone who you'd consider supporting, in the same way you wouldn't support Belarus, Uzbekistan or Namibia. Changing an anthem would be a superficial gesture and would change little else of substance. 'God Save the Queen' might no longer be anthem, but she still remains as head of state, which is actually quite a crucial factor when all is said and done in case people were overlooking that. Of course, to move beyond political history and relate her to the footballing sphere, I spotted an uncanny resemblance during the whole wedding razzle-dazzle yesterday; isn't she identical to Alex Ferguson, except with a cracking pair of... ;)

I see that some are once again suggesting that this is 'confirmation' that the FAI is sectarian in making approaches to players. After all, it's an association of sectarian kidnappers.

The ever-reliable Belfast Telegraph has trotted out their latest (fairly crap) piece on young Ferguson: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sp...-15149212.html

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Yesterday Don Givens, who heads up the Republic's scouting network, admitted that the FAI had been in contact with Ferguson...

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More a straightforward statement, I would have said. To admit to something, you'd have to be guilty of some wrongdoing for which to confess in the first place.

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The move, predicted by the Belfast Telegraph last month...

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Aren't they marvellous?...

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Two years ago FIFA decreed that under the Good Friday Agreement if a player eligible for Northern Ireland has an Irish passport he can play for the Republic.

The FAI have taken full advantage of that ruling with Darron Gibson, Shane Duffy, Marc Wilson, Daniel Kearns and Paul George making the move.

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http://joerob.com/wp-content/uploads...sed-monkey.jpg

What a bizarre, twisted and factually suspect set of lines. FIFA decreed nothing of the sort, never mind two years ago, whilst plenty of northern-born players played for our sides long before Darron Gibson ever declared for us; prior even to the Good Friday Agreement.

At least they left out that standard paragraph they always include where they completely misrepresent what the rules actually say, although they just couldn't let all mention of it go completely...

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Ferguson, who hails from Londonderry, has already played at senior level for the country of his birth, coming on as a substitute in a 3-0 defeat to Italy in June 2009.

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To be fair, DI, you and the other Two Wise men, need to write a definitive article between you for the BT and the rest of their constituency.

The truth is of course, this is too unpalatable for certain parties to accept, hence their stance. And this is 'only football.
:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Predator

I see that some are once again suggesting that this is 'confirmation' that the FAI is sectarian in making approaches to players. After all, it's an association of sectarian kidnappers.

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I don't think people know what "sectarian" means any more when the FAI accommodating an individual's expression of his Irish identity is construed in such a term, or else there's some agenda at play. Hmm...

I'd imagine we've had Protestants play for us in recent times. Sure Alan Kernaghan was from a Protestant background, albeit secular, religion having "meant diddly" to him. Maybe we even have Protestants in our current squads, God forbid! Who knows or cares? One thing for certain though is that we don't know for sure probably due to the fact there's never been an issue made of it because no-one, including the FAI, could care less what religion any of our players are. Religious segregation doesn't actually permeate every facet of life south of the border which is maybe why some of these OWC dullards find the notion that some people don't spend their days worrying about what one's religion might be so difficulty to comprehend.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

To be fair, DI, you and the other Two Wise men, need to write a definitive article between you for the BT and the rest of their constituency.

The truth is of course, this is too unpalatable for certain parties to accept, hence their stance. And this is 'only football.
:rolleyes:

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I have noticed that people mention the CAS Kearns judgment fairly regularly in the comments sections beneath these awful pieces but it appears to make little difference.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I don't think people know what "sectarian" means any more when the FAI accommodating an individual's expression of his Irish identity is construed in such a term, or else there's some agenda at play. Hmm...

I'd imagine we've had Protestants play for us in recent times. Sure Alan Kernaghan was from a Protestant background, albeit secular, religion having "meant diddly" to him. Maybe we even have Protestants in our current squads, God forbid! Who knows or cares? One thing for certain though is that we don't know for sure probably due to the fact there's never been an issue made of it because no-one, including the FAI, could care less what religion any of our players are. Religious segregation doesn't actually permeate every facet of life south of the border which is maybe why some of these OWC dullards find the notion that some people don't spend their days worrying about what one's religion might be so difficulty to comprehend.

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We even have some.....Protestant fans. Including some who've lived in the North. But Sssh.
;)

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

We even have some.....Protestant fans. Including some who've lived in the North. But Sssh.
;)

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An Ireland supporter who regularly travels down with us is employed by the IFA. :)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I don't think people know what "sectarian" means any more when the FAI accommodating an individual's expression of his Irish identity is construed in such a term, or else there's some agenda at play. Hmm...

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The claim is so astoundingly ludicrous that I almost feel dirty discussing it, but I feel it's the kind of thing that needs to be addressed and rubbished. I'm reminded of a certain Facebook campaign set up by Belfast Telegraph journalist, Owen Polley.

Some IFA fans are asserting that, because Givens stated that Mick Martin had spoken to Ferguson, it must have been the FAI who initiated contact (not that who contacted who actually matters), and as such, it proves beyond doubt that the FAI only approach those players who are allegedly Catholic, thus making their policy a 'sectarian' one.

Of course, the logic is perforated.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

We even have some.....Protestant fans. Including some who've lived in the North. But Sssh.
;)

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What are you talking about? The 'Irish Republic of Ireland' is a Catholic country for Irish Catholic Irishmen! :)

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Originally Posted by co. down green

An Ireland supporter who regularly travels down with us is employed by the IFA. :)

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That's quite funny alright. I'd always been wondering who the guy wearing this at games was. :p

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Originally Posted by Predator

Some IFA fans are asserting that, because Givens stated that Mick Martin had spoken to Ferguson, it must have been the FAI who initiated contact (not that who contacted who actually matters), and as such, it proves beyond doubt that the FAI only approach those players who are allegedly Catholic, thus making their policy a 'sectarian' one.

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Even so, when rumblings are made on the various forums and in the media that the player might actually have grown up supporting Ireland, the logical response would surely be to enquire with the player himself whether he'd be interested. If not, no harm done. I can't see what's wrong or "sectarian" about that at all. As to why the players who have made the switch are generally from a nationalist or Catholic background, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work it out. Shane Duffy gave his personal reasons as to why it was always his dream to play for Ireland and was hysterically lambasted as sectarian for mentioning the fact that he grew up in a Catholic background meaning it seemed like a perfectly natural decision for him to declare.

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Originally Posted by co. down green

An Ireland supporter who regularly travels down with us is employed by the IFA. :)

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Actually cdg, presuming it's not Steve Beaglehole, am disappointed you may have blown their cover and our attempts to infiltrate the FAI from within....
;)

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Originally Posted by Predator

The 'Irish Republic of Ireland' is a Catholic country for Irish Catholic Irishmen!

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Following in the spirit of the 'United Irishmen', very happy to contradict this was ever the case. Not everyone is paranoid.
Though apologies if, :rolleyes:, 'too much history ' for some!

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

That's quite funny alright.

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You don't know the half of it! I played 5-a-side recently (i can still kick a ball, just!) with another lad employed by the IFA who turned up for the game in the long sleeve Ireland away jersey and would not be seen dead in his employers attire outside work.

And the next time some of these loons come on talking about out resources, money etc.. being spent by the IFA on developing players, its worth remembering that the IFA have no money, it's taxpayers like me who fund the IFA.

Only recently the Sinn Fein Stormont minister forked out over three million quid of our money to save 30 IFA jobs that were under threat over cutbacks.

So if a player decides at 16 or 21 to declare for Ireland, it's not the IFA's money that has contributed to his progress, It's his parents hard earned cash and other hand outs from UEFA.

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Originally Posted by co. down green

Only recently the Sinn Fein Stormont minister forked out over three million quid of our money to save 30 IFA jobs that were under threat over cutbacks.

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The next vanity project and 'Thank You' banner for Ealing Green??
:)

If some one does not put a stop to Don Givens he will start World War 3. He is the most dangerous man on the planet and has to be controlled. If action is not taken immediately the very existance of mankind is threatened. In fact he is so dangerous that he must be some sort of agent-provocateur sent by aliens to get mankind to self inflicted Armageddon.

I have taken a big risk issuing this warning and have put my very existence in the greatest of jeopardy from the "GIVENS"

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Originally Posted by co. down green

An Ireland supporter who regularly travels down with us is employed by the IFA. :)

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Poaching! Brainwashing! Sectarian!