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Interesting that Fanning thinks that managing Ireland would be a step down from managing Norwich. Says it all, really.
Looks like we could be now condemned forever to be like Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; never qualifying for European Championships or World Cups. At least Irish football fans can now return to what they do best - supporting Liverpool and Man United.
It matter of factually is a step down - the step made only slightly smaller by the fact that by international football standards the Irish job is overpaid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightstory
I've mentioned Alex McLeishs move from managing Scotland to Birmingham City before ...it involved a 2000% pay hike. No international association can, or should in all likelihood, compete with that.
If we are serious about developing talent, then the FAI should firstly decide what type of system we want to play (Dutch, German, Spanish etc) and go to Holland and pay premium money for some of their coaches to come over here. I have watched some of our young teams and have been impressed with how they try and play football (including Noel King's u21s). I'm not sure if that is a result of the Dutch guy the FAI had brought over. Contrary to the doom and gloom over the past few days, we are producing some talent of real ability (Noe Baba, Daniel Cleary, Alex O'Hanlon and Jack Byrne) to name a few. The dream would be Liam Brady running the show.
There should be highly professional regional groups from about 10 or 11 up. Each region doesn't just take the so called top 20 in each age group from their region, but the top 100. From being involved in youth football, there can be lads who are average/good at 10, who by the time they are 14 are outstanding. Some lads will really come on with the top class coaching they receive. The best lads will inevitably go to Liverpool or United, but there will be a very positive knock on effect for the LOI, as there will be a noticeable improvement in the technical/tactical ability of young lads.
I actually think we have a decent batch of players at senior level, who are certainly good enough to get us to Euro 2016 and with the right draw have a good chance of World Cup 2018, but I would rather widespread development and money ploughed into the long term development of football in this country, then hiring another Trapattoni, who for all his early good work will leave us in almost as bad shape as when he took over. Belgium is the dream for us to try and emulate, countries like Denmark probably more feasible targets for proper football development in this country.
Wouldn't Martin O' Neill be perceived as a traitor in NI if he accepted Irish job? Would he and his family want the grief that might ensue from a minority of headbangers up there? What if more Norn Ire lads declared for us under his watch.... imagine the hassle he'd face up North as a result!
Perhaps it's too much of a pipe dream, but I wouldn't like to see us just breed players for a system, I'd like us to be coaching young players to their strengths as young as possible, whether those strengths are going to be being a big bruiser, a speedy winger, or a midfield pacemaker. Ultimately, youth football should be about the kids, and having a strong but technically limited player frozen out is just as bad from that respect as doing the same thing to someone small with good technique.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
He's not daft Grafter, but let's worry about that, if and when it ever happens.
I'd say it's not a step down in terms of prestige but definitely in terms of salary. That's the problem. It'd also be a career risk. He's doing OK at Norwich but if they do badly he'll geta good job at a Championship club, paying well. Managing Ireland without success could leave him vulnerable wrt future club employment if he was sacked or not renewed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightstory
It's gonna be Roy Keane. Gonna be fun whilst it lasts (6 months?)
That's a very valid point. I suppose what I would say is that the Spanish, Germans, Italians, Dutch, Belgians etc and even the Danes produce players of variety. They produce guys like Pirlo or Sneijder, but also defensive bruisers like Gattuso or Van Bommel, who are still 100 times more technically gifted than Glen Whelan.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Not sure if this link currently works, but feel free to re-post if necessary?
http://backpagefootball.com/post-tra...s-afoot/63042/
Maybe so, but I don't see why he'd let that bother him. He was at the game on Friday night and was happy enough in the past to manage Celtic, a club who wouldn't be too popular with many NI fans for obvious reasons. He also acknowledged the choice that exists for Irish nationals born in the north when he spoke publicly of McClean's switch and didn't appear to take any issue with it - I'd imagine he sees it as a positive thing as he seemed to be of the mistaken belief that that option hadn't been open to him when he was playing - so I don't see why he wouldn't be happy enough to facilitate northern-born players good enough and willing to play for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grafter
I was commenting on the previous poster who wanted us to play "free flowing football". It's not going to happen no matter who the manager is. I am aware of how low our stock has fallen.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Our centre-backs are not comfortable on the ball which is a pre-requisite for such idealistic type of football played by mostly only the top teams. Sweden hoof the ball and they have been doing it successfully for years but they have the players or should I say the player for it. I don't have a problem with the ball being hoofed up more often than not. I remember some of our goals being conceded in Poland by attempts to play football in our own half. What annoyed me though was that when it failed all the time (apart from Robbie's goal we must not forget), Trap's answer was to try it again. That said Sweden defended very well and gave Coleman no space to overlap. The other annoying this was bringing on Cox. After his first few bright games, his star has steadily been on the wane. Surely Hoolahan for a bit of guile was worth trying.
The system works away and two big tests for it are coming up. It has failed abysmally at home. What I just don't understand is why Trap has not seen this and adapted our style accordingly. Mind you our home form for over a decade has been poor. We find it hard to break down teams here
and on the 2 or 3 occasions he did actually get into good positions he inexplicably cut back in-field rather than whipping over an early cross.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
we struggled to get in behind them but when we did our use of the ball was dreadful. longs two great opportunities to play the ball accross quickly when in their penalty area was hugely frustrating also.
Trap's contract is valid until June.
It does appear madness though to have a contract valid until June 2014. That's half of 8 months salary for him and management team, drained from Irish football.
Why not a contract until October 2013 unless we made it to the Finals?
Maybe we manage to beat Austria, Sweden suffer a shock defeat to Kazakhstan, we avoid a goal rout in Germany and qualification hopes are kept alive to the last game, just to suck some more value out of Trap and his management team.
I don't think the length of the contract has any relevance, to be honest. I'd imagine the FAI and Trap just agreed a salary for the duration of the contract, €3 million or whatever, and it was up to the FAI how they chose to spread that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Of the tens of thousands of posts which have been made over the last several days, concerning the Irish set up, this is the best. It addresses the correct points (what system do we want to play) and the poster (Bungle) correctly points out that we need to pay premium money for their coaches to come over here, rather than big money for the likes of Trap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bungle
Top marks Bungle.
Wouldn't mind at all if it was Keane. It would inject a massive amount of public attention into the situation, rather than the disdain that is there at present.Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
And while on the subject of the ultimate prodigal son being brought back to the highest job in the land, I wonder what he would think of the following players (who were also outcasts to one extent or another) - Stephen Ireland, Darron Gibson, Wes Hoolahan, Anthony Stokes. Chucks, there were two other creative lads which have escaped me at present.
There'd be a huge short term impact alright and I think the "outcasts" might return - before they get kicked out :)
I'd be less sure the long term consequences would be good.
In all seriousness though, I never got the impression Keane ever showed the signs that he can read footballing situations from the bench in the way the better coaches do. I'm not sure Mick or MON ever did either though! I think their strengths are their ability to get people to play for them.
I just can't see Delaney going near him and I'm surprised his name is being bandied about. Has Keane even indicated he'd consider taking the job if offered?Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
That's the most soul-destroying and frustrating aspect; the inevitable futility of it all.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
Cox wasn't always deployed on the wing though, was he? He chests down throw-ins and can do little else on the wing. Walters is an absolute work-horse, but he's another player who won't offer us much on the wing. That's not a criticism of Walters, but his panting and chasing like a wounded bull is utterly wasted there. You can see it kills him; he's drained every game he plays there, and for naught. He looked on the verge of collapse before Alaba scored his equaliser in March, but Trap inexplicably left him on.Quote:
The other annoying this was bringing on Cox. After his first few bright games, his star has steadily been on the wane. Surely Hoolahan for a bit of guile was worth trying.
That's true, although Trap's high-profile appointment also generated a huge level of interest; as you can see, such attention is transient.Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
Out of interest, would a Keane appointment disgruntle any/many on here?
The comparisons with the North in terms of the standard of coaching is very depressing and worrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Just seen this on twitter
@COYBIG: Trap: "In Ireland there is no league. Our players play in England. In Sweden & Austria they have league. This is different." #COYBIG
Asking for trouble?
Some responses: http://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/3942/...ful-trapattoniQuote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
League of Ireland sides have also beaten numerous Swedish opponents in European competition in recent years.Quote:
The statement prompted responses from a number of League of Ireland players, including Limerick defender Stephen Folan, who branded Trapattoni "disrespectful".
"Rather disrespectful that [Trapattoni] hasn't acknowledged the league," Folan wrote on Twitter. "Regardless of the standard, how many [players] from the Ireland team have played in this league?"
St Patrick's Athletic defender Ian Bermingham was critical of the Italian and suggested that there were better players currently playing in Ireland's domestic league than those currently in Trapattoni's squad.
"Never mind better players on the bench, [there are] much better midfielders in our league than Paul Green," he wrote on Twitter.
Bermingham's St Pat's team mate Ger O'Brien said that Trapattoni did not know what domestically-based players offered.
"Nobody associated with our league should be offended by Trap. [He] has no idea what we can offer [and] doesn't realise [a quarter] of his squad played in [the League of Ireland]..."
The reaction echoes the thoughts of Derry City midfielder Patrick McEleney, who recently told Goal that Trapattoni would never look to the League of Ireland and doubted the Italian's desire to promote the league.
"I think Trapattoni will never look towards our league for senior international players," McEleney said. "You would have to be playing across the water [in Britain] for him to acknowledge you. As for promoting, I'm not sure he would do it."
I'd like to think that the intent of Trap's statement has been somewhat lost in translation and that he's actually criticising the national and associational neglect of our league; so bad it is that you'd barely know the league existed.
Disgraceful.
Currently the LOI is one of the lowest standard leagues in Europe, no matter what oddball piece of a fact is offered in denial.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Trap is engaging in the art of deflection away from his prehistoric tactics as being our main culprit after failing to beat teams like Sweden and Austria. It can't be true that Trap has made a mistake or is less than brilliant, therefore there must be some other reason:rolleyes:
It is true that the LOI is very weak, it would be beneficial if the league was stronger, as strong as the Austrian or Swedish leagues.
He phrased it very poorly but there is a semblance of a point. If he had said, "the difference is Sweden and Austria have clubs who have been in the CL group stage a few times rather than never and/or the Swedes and Austrians get into theUEFA / Europa group stages with more regularity" it would have been a simple statement of fact and no one could have argued with it. This year didn't Armenian, Estonian, Kazakh and Icelandic clubs do better or go further in Europe than LoI teams?
As for Bermingham, why doesn't he name names, if there are these LoI players who could walk into the national team (team not just bench as that was his statement)?
Sweden had one domestic based player in their line-up against us, a player coming to the end of his career. It is more often the case the starting eleven is made up of foreign based players. It's pretty much irrelevant in this context if the Swedish league is stronger than the LOI because Swedes don't deem their domestic league strong enough to field international standard players. On Friday night's game itself, Sweden had one player with that little bit extra but we are as strong, arguably stronger in all other positions to the Swedes but watching the game itself you wouldn't think that. Its all well in good in talking about poor structures in the Irish game etc etc but this is deflecting from the fact that we actually have, at this very moment in time, a strong panel of players to pick from. It's time for somebody that can actually see this to come in and do the job.
I'm hoping that a few of the current players will come back and finish their careers in the LOI and earn their badges and start coaching here and this would help generate more interest in the league and Irish soccer. Trap is a joke of a manager and is an embarrassment to the game in this country. He barely knew any players outside the EPL until the FAI came under pressure to sack him.
I'd agree with much of that but I think it's worth mentioning (fwiw), that Sweden had 4 local league players in their squad, Austria had 8 in their recent squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
In no way, is a weak LOI an excuse that Trap can use with a morsel of credibility.
Can't the vast bulk of players in the Swedish and Austrian squads thank Swedish and Austrian league clubs for their development though? Unless I'm mistaken, there's no shipping their players off to Germany or wherever at the age of 16.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I won't for a second defend Trap's management of this team in the last couple of years but we know his English is rubbish and his "no league" remark is not to be taken literally. If Trap was fluent in English he'd probably say that a lack of a fully professional league that can compete financially with even the 3rd and 4th tiers of English football is a problem for Ireland, as it makes them largely dependent on a foreign system to produce players of international standard.
If he had said that, few would have had any beef.
However, IFK has a point. These players are good enough to beat Sweden. We are still producing good players. Not European Cup winners like we often did before, but good enough to beat several second and third ranked European teams.
Trap has either no shame or no sense of context. Ireland regularly comes second in groups yet he feels he has worked some kind of miracle. He steadied the ship after Staunton and brought order where it was needed, but he hasn't built on that. In fact the order we initially benefitted from has long since disappeared and we are now every bit as lost as we were in the final days of Stan and even Kerr's reigns.
If you take Whelan as an example, at the moment he seems to be a bit of weak link in the team. He is, or perhaps once was a nominally defensive midfielder. If the manager wants to replace him with another DM, he has to hope there is a decent viable one playing at a decent standard in Europe/UK or he'll have to try and work a player from another position into the system or change the system entirely. The other option is to take a punt on a player from the LoI to fill the weakness. If the Austrian manager was in a similar situation he could see if there were any viable DMs at Austria Vienna, Rapid Vienna, RB Salzburg all of whom have better players and more European experience than LoI teams - his domestic option is less of a risk. The same is perhaps true of the Swedish manager, although I'm not that familiar with the good clubs there now, years ago it was AIK, Djurgaarten and Malmo.
That's a potential new recruit, his grandfather may be an Irish Wolfhound but they are awaiting the results of a DNA test.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminence Grise
Yes to a point. Leaving Sweden at 16 isn't unheard of though. Sebastian Larsson went to Arsenal at 16. Most of the rest of the team lefted Sweden in their teens so what experience they have (if any) of playing in the Swedish league is relatively limited. Swedish club football can offer players a professional career which LOI football can't. But when push comes to shove Swedish kids want to play abroad as much as an Irish kid.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
That part is nonsense, I have already taken the time to correct you on that point. The Swedish players on average spend many full seasons with a Swedish league club before departing, on average the age of departing is 21 or 22, but I will defer to Tricky's opinion on that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Here is the list of the players in the Swedish squad that came to Dublin
and listed is the age they left the Swedish league team to go abroad.
Started = started the game
used sub = came on as a sub
Andreas Isaksson goalie 23 Started
Lustig 22 - to Norway Started
Jonas Olsson 25 used sub
Per Nilsson 25 Started
Martin Olsson 18 Started
Mikael Antonsson 23 Started
Pierre Bengtsson 21 to Denmark
Andreas Granqvist 22
Albin Ekdal 19 Started
Seb Larsson 16 Started
Anders Svensson 25 - returned to Swedish league age 29 Started
Kim Källström 22
Pontus Wernbloom 23 used sub
Alexander Kačaniklić1916 Started
Jimmy Durmaz 23
Erkan Zengin 24
Zlatan 20 Started
Johan Elmander 19 Started
Tobias Hysén 24 - back in Sweden age 25
Ola Toivonen 23
Still playing in Swedish league
Pontus Jansson 22
Adam Johansson 30 used sub
I don't have the time to correct you but you can start off with Isaksson - he lefted to play with Juventus at 19. Plenty of other ages incorrect as well so google some more.
There is nothing or hardly nothing :) to correct, the goalie left to go juve age 19 didn't make it, came back to Sweden and played 4 full seasons in Sweden before leaving age 23.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I think that counts as leaving sweden age 23
Edit
One correction
Alexander Kačaniklić left age 16 not 19
other info
Of the 2 players who left age 19
Johan Elmander had 2 full seasons in the Allsvenskan
Albin Ekdal had 24 games in the Allsvenskan over 2 seasons
Even if you wanted to nit pick over Zlatan's age of leaving, 19.75 and not 20,
he was playing with Malmo for 3 seasons before leaving.
I've already taken time out of my day to correct you. Lose the self-righteous tone. Isaksson left Sweden at 19. You think wrong. Google some more and I'll response to your new findings when I have the time.
This is all irrelevant.
The players are just not good enough...
When a person uses a smiley it means they are not trying to be self righteous. There is nothing for me to lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
I think you need to be more clear and concise with your claims about swedish players.
I did not make any claims in the first place, but I have made a very strong case to correct a perception that you offered.
At the very least, when you consider the best player Sweden has ever produced, Zlatan, played for Malmo for 3 seasons before leaving, there isn't a remote parallel with what happens to best of the Irish youth.
Even Sweden's other world class player, Henrik Larsson, played in Sweden until he was 22.
So what?
They are both world-class players who would have probably developed regardless...