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That's part of it but I think the main reason is just the fact there have never been separate ROI and NI teams in rugby, or in most other sports. Northern rugby fans have never had a Northern Ireland team to buy into (even though Ulster was, until recently, an effective surrogate), therefore they're not married to the idea.
The north should be grateful they have an international team as should the scots and the welsh. Hard to believe there has not been major opposition to 4 seperate teams competing from the one nation especially as it becomes more difficult to qualify for world cups with The break up of eastern block. Congratulations to the northern lads who have been brave enough to play for the nation(Ireland) they associate with. I think it is a mark of respect to the northern nationalists of previous generations who didnt have the opportunity to play for their country
So you're actually suggesting most of the North's squad have Irish passports??Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Yeah right, it's not April 1st.
Lennon's was a slight red herring, but it was contentious elsewhere.
Regardless of what they're qualified for, unless they need both for work (eg. know a few boys who've worked on certain Brit. govt. contracts who had to have the relevant passport and were eligible for both), why would most people have two passports?
Think a figure of around 90-100k joint holders was quoted around the time this was first mentioned, who had joint citizenship/passports.
But it could be far more, willing to be corrected....
That's fair enough. Wouldn't dispute that.Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
But if you believe your rotund counterpart, they claim there was a 'Northern boycott' of the Irish rugby team.
Not just on the basis of what it represents....
;)
No, I'm not suggesting "most" of Northern Ireland's players have Irish Passports.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I am, however, telling you that several players, at all age groups (inc Senior), hold only Irish Passports.
I'm sure the English will feel left out from the above.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Not only does the United Kingdom have four seperate Associations, the "guardians of the laws of the game", the International Football Association Board (composed of 8 members), has 4 members from the British Associations - the other 4 designated by FIFA.
I don't feel that the four oldest Associations in the world, should be in any way "grateful" to be autonomous.
When Shane Duffy was called into the same squad as Ferguson two years ago to play Italy, I recall a Derry Journal article where Duffy said that he had intentions of playing for the IFA. Then again, he was 17 and had only been called up to stop him thinking about declaring for the FAI (possibly the same reason Ferguson was called up, who knows?). Thankfully both of them came to their senses.Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
I think you're being a bit harsh on Worthington. What's the point in including a player who isn't interested? Was he in any underage squads recently? I'm sure that Ferguson would have been in some recent senior squads if he was interested in staying with the IFA.
Indeed, could you remind your fellow fans of this fact, before they make fools of themselves with petitions and boycotts? Oh wait...Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Having read the petition, I note this in it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
"we must stress that we accept that some players from Northern Ireland will choose to represent the Republic of Ireland team. This is, of course, regrettable, but we absolutely and unequivocally respect their choice".
It seems to me that the objective of the Petition is not to deny choice.
Speaking for myself, my non attendance at the ROI and Wales matches is because of the IFA, not the FAI.
I think some fans are being harsh on Worthington in this instance too, although I think Worthington should have included Ferguson in the squad for the recent qualifiers against Serbia and Slovenia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Anyway, Ferguson was interviewed for the "Happy Days" Northern Ireland fanzine recently (after the announcement of the squad for Serbia/Slovenia)
He was asked "will you be involved in the next series of Under 21 games?"
His response:
"Yeah, hopefully. The next lot of under 21 games are a couple of months away. I think the next one is away to the Faroe Islands and hopefully I'll be involved in that".
That reads like a small concession to me, without much meaning - it is only a fleeting acceptance of the reality. The objection is to the fact that a player may make the switch to the FAI and the overall objective is effectively to deny the choice. So on the one hand NI fans say that they "absolutely and unequivocally respect [the players'] choice", while on the other they seek to deny that choice on the grounds that it is somehow "unethical" and "sectarian". What a bunch of disingenuous jokers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
My reading of it is that the objective of the Petition is clear:Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
"As longstanding supporters of the Northern Ireland team we urge the IFA to act upon the following proposal: it must secure a public commitment from the FAI, or a joint statement from both associations to the same effect, that it will no longer select players who have represented Northern Ireland at U19 level and above, regardless of FIFA's rules and regardless of whether or not a senior cap was won in a friendly international. *This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"
Whilst I have certain reservations about the content of the petition, I do think there is substance in this bit.
"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"
*I suspect the author(s) of the Open Letter are unaware of the "Gentleman's Agreement" agreed between the two Associations in Belfast in January 1999- the IFA represented at the time by Jim Boyce, with the FAI's then "top man", Bernard O'Byrne .
An "Agreement" with which Boyce stated he was "very happy".
I don't think that's necessarily true - or maybe I'm being over-sympathetic to our NI brethren. ;)
My take would be they are not seeking to deny choice, so much as ensure players are fully aware of the issues before engaging in a commitment. The frustration and dissappointment of seeing a player develop before having them re-declare is palpable. I don't think it's a conflict of ideology to respect the players choice while seeking players (and associations) to respect the unique situation NI is in and take due consideration when accepting call-up's. It has to work both ways at some point surely.
While it would be far better if the wording reflected a bit of respect to the choices made by existing players, and jettisoned the absolutely infuriating notion of sectarianism, on the whole it's seems a slightly more progressive response than the usual OWC claptrap.
"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"
That's a pile of emotionally retarded cráp.
"As longstanding supporters of the Northern Ireland team we urge the IFA to act upon the following proposal: it must secure a public commitment from the FAI, or a joint statement from both associations to the same effect, that it will no longer select players who have represented Northern Ireland at U19 level and above, regardless of FIFA's rules and regardless of whether or not a senior cap was won in a friendly international. This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"
And the objective of denying the choice of the player to play for the FAI is still implicit. It's just seeking a case whereby the FAI would be the one who is denying a player the choice.
"To those players considering switching allegiance, however, we say this: please do not accept a call-up from the IFA unless it is your intention to play for Northern Ireland. Your actions let down fans who give you unstinting support, waste the scarce resources of the IFA and, worst of all, deny a cap to someone who genuinely wanted it and would have been proud to accept it. Such expedient behaviour in denying another player the chance to win a cap, the highest honour in international football, is utterly unethical and reflects poorly on those who do it"
Substance? It's outright derision of a player exercising his right as a dual national to play for the IFA or the FAI, with a guilt-trip thrown in in an attempt to give it an added moral dimension.
In essence, it is announcing an unequivocal respect for choice while blatantly seeking to undermine it and ultimately, to take it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Why should a kid be expected to make a switch when it suits the fans or the IFA? It is and should remain the individual's prerogative, in my view.
Totally melodramatic sure and I don't agree with the wording at all. But I can't blame fans for being impassioned or trying to protect their own interests, even if they get hysterical in the process.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Think it should be noted I think internet petitions are utterly lame btw. :)
Absolutely agree. But (and I'm not necessarily saying I agree with this U-19 gentleman's agreement) how does declaring early or turning down the IFA at any age inhibit choice? Fair enough - it would be more inhibitive than for other dual nationals, who would likely get to pick and choose without not so much of a fuss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
But given the unique situation this is, I don't think it's unfair to call for players to be more aware of the obligations of accepting a call-up. The younger you go, the thornier that issue gets but certainly, with full internationals, it should be fairly obvious if a player wants to play for ROI or NI.
Genuinely the only major problem I can see, off the top of my head, is a player being subsequently shunned by an association for chasing a cap for one over another - but we have our own Jermaine Pennant debates all the time and we can live with those.
The wording, as ever, absolutely dreadful - but the glimmer of the idea seems to be that a compromise should be possible, one that doesn't inhibit choice. Without going all hippy dippy on it (kumbaya) - isn't that something we'd all like to see?
And, in hindsight, let's just say the more attention I pay to the wording of the petition the more I'm going to distance myself from it...;)
How is it? I don't think it's unfair to suggest that players should not waste our time if they have no intention of playing for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
[QUOTE=Not Brazil;1487661]My reading of it is that the objective of the Petition is clear: *This amounts to, in essence, the reintroduction of the gentleman's agreement which existed for over fifty years and worked to the mutual benefit of both associations"
*I suspect the author(s) of the Open Letter are unaware of the "Gentleman's Agreement" agreed between the two Associations in Belfast in January 1999- the IFA represented at the time by Jim Boyce, with the FAI's then "top man", Bernard O'Byrne .]
How dare anyone decide on a "gentlemans agreement" to deny an irishman or woman to represent their nation. Bernard O Byrne or whoever else in the FAI allowed this down through the years should be ashamed of themselves.
The english wont feel left out for the simple reason that a united kingdom team will be referred to as english. FIFA is a corrupt organisation with the most corrupt aspect been the existance of 4 pseudo nations been allowed play international football when they are simply components of one nation the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Excuse my laziness, but did the CAS / Daniel Kearns judgment not refute the existence of any "gentlemen's agreement"? I thought it did but genuinely am not sure and not particularly fussed to investigate at nearly 11pm.
Absolute rubbish. Are FIFA corrupt because Faroe Islands have a team? England, Scotland and Wales all have a great footballing history as the oldest associations after pretty much codifying and inventing the modern international game. Why would you want to destroy that history just because you have some chip on your shoulder?Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Court of Arbitration for Sport
Source (PDF) (Page 25)
I think he was trolling.Quote:
Originally Posted by boovidge
Your enquiry is quite pertinent Stuttgart. From the CAS report and regarding the legendary gentlemen's agreement, it appears the FAI denied complicity, the IFA couldn't prove it's existence and the CAS concluded that it didn't actually matter anyway!
From what I can see, the solid core beneath the drivel of the 'Open letter to the Irish Football Association' calls for an agreement (gentlemen at the ready) to be established between the two associations which, to quote CAS, "may not be used to defeat the claims" of someone who wishes to switch associations anyway because individual players would "not be party to any such agreement".
That's right folks, the FAI (huge suspension of disbelief required here..) could actually humour this desperation and potentially be challenged by the next Shane Ferguson, angry at being denied his right on the basis of an agreement he never signed up to.
You'd struggle between laughter and crying, you really would.Quote:
The forthcoming fixture between the two countries is an ideal opportunity for the associations to bring this matter to an amicable conclusion and, in the name of continued cordial relations, to publicly announce that a binding agreement on player selection has been reached. Such an agreement is in the interests of all concerned as it would strengthen and equalise the relationship between the FAI and IFA and end distractive speculation surrounding players.
If the IFA refuses to pursue this course of action, then it will have declared itself unfit to run football in Northern Ireland. In this event, its senior administrators must resign and be replaced by people who will serve the national team's best interests.
You'd be well served to research the agreement reached in 1999.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
With that, your credability sunk dramatically.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
The suggestion that a dual-qualified player should be forced to choose so early at the behest of the IFA is simply outrageous - it would be quite divisive and telling ROI fans to pledge loyalty or féck off would surely threaten the 'all-inclusive' utopian image of the NI team.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
If such a rule was applied universally by FIFA to all players, perhaps it would be somewhat more acceptable, but why would FIFA change the rules back?
What exactly are the obligations of accepting a call-up? It's a voluntary thing. The players volunteer their services to an association when accepting a call up and are not bound by anything other than FIFA's statutes.Quote:
But given the unique situation this is, I don't think it's unfair to call for players to be more aware of the obligations of accepting a call-up. The younger you go, the thornier that issue gets but certainly, with full internationals, it should be fairly obvious if a player wants to play for ROI or NI.
I agree that by adulthood, it should be fairly clear where one sees one's international future, but in reality cases vary for individuals. Players like Duffy and Ferguson, despite being ROI fans and dreaming of playing for Ireland, were offered carrot-caps by Worthington as an incentive to stick around, suggesting that their career with NI was in some way guaranteed - which, if you think about it, is a bit crafty, self-interested and opportunistic ( :cool: ). 16 year olds, influenced by all-sorts, are being presented with the supposed guarantee of an international career with one association as opposed to uncertainty with the other.
The wording is terrible. You get the impression that there is a perennial undertone of intolerance. What kind of compromise do you envisage?Quote:
The wording, as ever, absolutely dreadful - but the glimmer of the idea seems to be that a compromise should be possible, one that doesn't inhibit choice. Without going all hippy dippy on it (kumbaya) - isn't that something we'd all like to see?
The free choice is currently there for all and that's the way I'd like to see it remain. People born in NI should be free to exercise their identity by being free to play for whichever Irish team they want, provided their services are desired.
Boyce and O'Byrne agreed that northern-born Irish nationals could play for Ireland, so long as they volunteered rather than the FAI contacting them first.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
CAS could find no evidence of such an agreement. Neither could the IFA provide it. The FAI denied it existed and FIFA weren't aware of it. It would be fair to assume one didn't exist. What most people refer to as "the gentleman's agreement" is probably the dictat issued by FIFA in the early 1950s effective only upon the IFA preventing them from continuing with the practice of calling up southern-born players. There was never anything similar decreed by FIFA upon the FAI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
And whenever they so desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Pedant alert;Presuming they are eligible.
I've agreed with most things up until this. Total nonsense. And you know it too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
So does that mean that no irishman in the north asked to play for ireland until Gibson did? Also i was not aware that the players such as george, wilson, dufffy, devine, gibson and kearns were contacted by the FAI ? How does anyone know they were contacted first?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Of course they will be referred to as English. What do you think they will be called by the random football fan in say Brazil?Great Britons maybe or united kingdomers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Im not aware of the agreement that appears to not have existed in the first place so maybe you could provide an official copy other than hearsay that didnt impress CAS either it appears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Heh?Quote:
Originally Posted by awec
You think you can impose a limit on their own free will??
:rolleyes: Hmm, don't think that'd work somehow.
;)
I don't know why I'm wasting my time, but "free will" is a myth for a football player. It doesn't exist.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Players are told when to arrive for training, what to eat, what to do, when to go home, when to sleep, what to do at home, when to drink, when to smoke, when to arrive for games, where to play, how to play, when to come off as a sub. Where does "free will" come into that?
In terms of internationals, players already abide by FIFA rules that limit what they can do (for example Ryan Giggs cannot exercise his "free will" tomorrow and decide he fancies playing for England).
"Free will" my jam roll. :)
The rules are already there to dictate when a player becomes tied to an association, all they are asking is that the rules are modified (i.e. not making any new rules) to lower the criteria for when a player is tied to an association (i.e. less than a full senior competitive cap).
You don't really seem to be aware of anything, no harm to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Don't understand your last point, they're free to play (or 'switch') at any point during their career, if they're eligible, be they 15 or even 50.
Why would the rules ever be modified just to accommodate the usual paranoid control freakery??
The CAS's decision been done. Get over it and move on.
Plenty of northern-born players declared for us prior to Gibson's switch made the headlines. They just weren't as high profile as Gibson was. I assume the players you mention contacted the FAI first. Why do you assume otherwise? Actually, in the case of Shane Duffy, I understand that Sean McCaffrey and the FAI were reluctant to make any move until Duffy signalled his intentions to them. I suppose nobody can know for sure who contacts who first, although I assume a player could always spill the beans, as it were, if the FAI contacted him and he took some sort of issue with it. I think EG made allegations a while back that the FAI had contacted Chris Baird with an interest in having him declare for us a few years ago but I don't know much else about that and he hasn't posted in a while. I do miss that guy. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by liamoo11
Good point Danny - where is he gone?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I'd be delighted if Shane declared for us. He's clearly a lad with great potential. Been reading this thread over the last few weeks and I have to say I have alot of sympathy with Northern Ireland losing so many players to the South. Obviously, I would feel that Northern Irish Catholics or indeed Protestants have a right to play with the Republic and I'm delighted that they want to play for us, but I can empathise with the North losing a large bulk of talented lads, especially if they have used Northern Irish underage sides to get moves to England or put themselves in the shop window. For example lets just imagine a brilliant young player declaring for the North who is born in Dublin after playing with our underage teams. We wouldn't be very happy about it.
Hopefully some day there will be a united Irish football team and then football fans in both countries could regularly watch Ireland in major tournaments. The North will always produce very decent players and occasionally great players like Blanchflower and Best that could make a massive difference to the Republic. I don't buy this notion that it's a class thing that differentiates rugby and soccer and that the "rugby crowd" up North are different to the "football crowd". Boxing is the most working class sport of all and we have a United Ireland boxing team in the Olympics.