Stadium Updates (All Clubs)

Gerry Matthew used his own construction company and materials to build the shed behind the shed. It seemed to me at the time that it was unusual that the sports capital grant was applied for and subsequently was paid to a company of the applicant. GM's quantity surveyors put a valuation on the YDC. I dont know if an independent survey has been done. At the time GM said that without his own materiel utilised from a defunct build and using his own workers the build would not have happened. To determine the actual cost as opposed to a valuation, what is said that is owed and what was actually spent...anybodies guess really. That he is looking for 10% of his €5mil valuation would suggest to me that that there is wriggle room around that valuation.

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

Gerry Matthew used his own construction company and materials to build the shed behind the shed. It seemed to me at the time that it was unusual that the sports capital grant was applied for and subsequently was paid to a company of the applicant. GM's quantity surveyors put a valuation on the YDC. I dont know if an independent survey has been done. At the time GM said that without his own materiel utilised from a defunct build and using his own workers the build would not have happened. To determine the actual cost as opposed to a valuation, what is said that is owed and what was actually spent...anybodies guess really. That he is looking for 10% of his €5mil valuation would suggest to me that that there is wriggle room around that valuation.

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The figures don't come anywhere near €5m and he signed the accounts!!

There's a reason why so many developers got involved with football clubs - tax write-offs all over the place.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

There's a reason why so many developers got involved with football clubs - tax write-offs all over the place.

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Shush... Dont tell Dodge!

The Prisoner …. “Fixed assets at cost €3,426,306. Assumption - this relates almost entirely to the building behind the shed? “

Wouldn’t be too sure about that. Capital spend undertaken by Gerry Matthews, other than the pitch and the YDC, has been estimated at circa €1 million. It isn’t clear what element, if any, of this capital spend was capitalised in the accounts.
Allowing say €1.5 million (Pitch €.5 million and Others €1 million) would leave about €2 million (nett of grants) for the YDC.
Note: The €1 million Others would add to the sum owed to Gerry Matthews, depending of course on how this expenditure was handled in the accounts.
All a bit of an enigma.

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Originally Posted by orielabu

The Prisoner …. “Fixed assets at cost €3,426,306. Assumption - this relates almost entirely to the building behind the shed? “

Wouldn’t be too sure about that. Capital spend undertaken by Gerry Matthews, other than the pitch and the YDC, has been estimated at circa €1 million. It isn’t clear what element, if any, of this capital spend was capitalised in the accounts.
Allowing say €1.5 million (Pitch €.5 million and Others €1 million) would leave about €2 million (nett of grants) for the YDC.
Note: The €1 million Others would add to the sum owed to Gerry Matthews, depending of course on how this expenditure was handled in the accounts.
All a bit of an enigma.

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My figures are from a verifiable source - the audited accounts, signed by both the directors and the auditors.


Can you confirm your source?

“My figures are from a verifiable source - the audited accounts, signed by both the directors and the auditors. “
In relation to the accounts of any League of Ireland club, only innocents abroad would treat them like the gospel.
In any event the only new figure I introduced was the ESTIMATE of €1 million to cover the capital programme undertaken by Gerry Matthews in the period 2006 to 2010.
The source? “C’mon the Town A Dundalk FC Miscellany” (2003). See article “The Changing face of Oriel Park 1966 to 2013.”

I merely cautioned acceptance of the proposition that “Fixed assets at cost €3,426,306. Assumption - this relates almost entirely to the building behind the shed? “

Some €1.5 mill capital expenditure other than for YDC needs to be accounted for.

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Originally Posted by orielabu

“My figures are from a verifiable source - the audited accounts, signed by both the directors and the auditors. “
In relation to the accounts of any League of Ireland club, only innocents abroad would treat them like the gospel.
In any event the only new figure I introduced was the ESTIMATE of €1 million to cover the capital programme undertaken by Gerry Matthews in the period 2006 to 2010.
The source? “C’mon the Town A Dundalk FC Miscellany” (2003). See article “The Changing face of Oriel Park 1966 to 2013.”

I merely cautioned acceptance of the proposition that “Fixed assets at cost €3,426,306. Assumption - this relates almost entirely to the building behind the shed? “

Some €1.5 mill capital expenditure other than for YDC needs to be accounted for.

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In relation to your comment on the accounts of a LoI club, I'll leave that to the auditors to deal with.

I haven't read the book so I can't comment on it. I have no idea what research was done for the book and how it was verified.

Can you clarify a point - is it your contention that the figure of €3m odd is overstated or understated?

My contention is that the figure of €3m is at a significant variance with the €5.5m as claimed in one of the articles coupled with the fact that the accounts state that GM is owed €1.7m and not €5.5m. Simply, the figures in the articles do not compare with the audited accounts.

I do not know anything about the basis used to arrive at the €3.4 million for fixed assets according to the audited accounts.
But with €1.5 million to be accounted for to cover expenditure for items other than the YDC (Pitch and the 2006-12 grounds improvement programme) I’m suggesting to treat with caution the suggestion that this 3.4 “relates almost entirely to the building behind the shed.”

I agree that sums quoted in various articles simply don’t make sense.
With regard to your question; It’s impossible to know whether the €3.4 million is an accurate figure for the YDC because we don’t know how the other capital spend was treated in the accounts. Hence my word of caution.

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Originally Posted by orielabu

I do not know anything about the basis used to arrive at the €3.4 million for fixed assets according to the audited accounts.
But with €1.5 million to be accounted for to cover expenditure for items other than the YDC (Pitch and the 2006-12 grounds improvement programme) I’m suggesting to treat with caution the suggestion that this 3.4 “relates almost entirely to the building behind the shed.”

I agree that sums quoted in various articles simply don’t make sense.
With regard to your question; It’s impossible to know whether the €3.4 million is an accurate figure for the YDC because we don’t know how the other capital spend was treated in the accounts. Hence my word of caution.

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I’m suggesting to treat with caution the suggestion that this 3.4 “relates almost entirely to the building behind the shed.” Yes, I'm more than happy to accept your words of caution and that's why the first word in the sentence was 'assumption'. That was based on view that from my visits to OP I can't see any other major work carried having been carried out in recent years.

My first visit to OP was in April, 1978 and the place looks much the same today as it was then. Very little has been done to OP over a period of almost 40 years in terms of improvements. I recall a small covered area where the shed is now and there may have been something behind the town end. That's about it. I was down the far end and from memory there was nothing there, not even a bit of a bank to stand on to get an elevated view. Still the same today. The only significant outlay that I can see from 1978 is the pitch. So I have a bit of difficulty in seeing where the investment went if it didn't go into the YDC. I accept there would have been ongoing repairs, etc., to the stand, lights, general repairs, etc., over the years but the period under discussion is 2007 to 2012.

because we don’t know how the other capital spend was treated in the accounts. Can you advise on what other capital spend there was as it's not readily apparent from my most recent visit to OP this season?

The source referred to earlier [“C’mon the Town A Dundalk FC Miscellany” (2003). See article “The Changing face of Oriel Park 1966 to 2013.”] itemises 20 different areas of expenditure, year by year, from 2006 to 2010, and excluding the pitch costs. Apparently, according to the article “ It is estimated that in excess of €1 million was spent in these areas”.

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Originally Posted by orielabu

The source referred to earlier [“C’mon the Town A Dundalk FC Miscellany” (2003). See article “The Changing face of Oriel Park 1966 to 2013.”] itemises 20 different areas of expenditure, year by year, from 2006 to 2010, and excluding the pitch costs. Apparently, according to the article “ It is estimated that in excess of €1 million was spent in these areas”.

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I don't have the book.

Can you give a few examples?

The pitch was laid with new drainage and ground works, and then top lair of carpet replaced. New roof on the stand, glass panels fitted to replace the opaque perspex, the interior of the stand modified with wall realignment to facilitate a club shop, offices and reception, refs (male and female i think) changing rooms. The seats fitted for Europe and modifcations made to do so. Work to bring the stand up to appropriate health and safety eg widening of steps and decreasing their rise. Fitting handrails hence etc. Build of a block of men and womens toilets at the rear of town end terrace. The erection of the perimeter wall/fencing around the pitch. Concrete 'steps' poured to fit seating in the New shed and TV gantry. Tarmacing the forecourt at the front of Oriel and the Away entrance lane way. Building a 12ft or so (drop in to the sports fields behind) perimeter wall at the Carrick Rd end and the 'road' in to the YDC cleared, widened and tarmaced with appropriate ground works. Refurbished dressing rooms. A million bits 'n pieces of rewiring electrics, drainage, dealing wth general neglect (which considering it is now still an antiquated facility after, how much was and still is needed) refurb of the McGuill bar, erection of netting behind the goal, replacement or upgrade of floodlights it think, lining designated pedestrian ways, ambulance parking area etc. This all may not be capital expenditure but it does all add up to a good chunk of expenditure on the ground in general before the YDC is mentioned.

Another slightly odd one is the extension of the board room over the bar and includes a view of half the pitch.

You can add in Oriel park into the Fixed Asset. While the club don't own the site they do enjoy full use (control) and generate revenue from us use

I've been to Oriel three times in my life since circa 1990. The only change I noticed is the plastic pitch.

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Originally Posted by Paddyfield

I've been to Oriel three times in my life since circa 1990. The only change I noticed is the plastic pitch.

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What a strange post seeing that the last few pages have been about the pitch length YDC on the shed side! Did you miss it as you were blinded by your rage at the "plastic pitch"?

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Originally Posted by Paddyfield

I've been to Oriel three times in my life since circa 1990. The only change I noticed is the plastic pitch.

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Were you stone drunk or something?

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Originally Posted by Paddyfield

I've been to Oriel three times in my life since circa 1990. The only change I noticed is the plastic pitch.

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3 time since circa 1990? We need to know the most recent visit Paddy as if the last of your 3 visits was 2006 well then it's not a surprise you didnt notice much change. If first visit was 1990 when Oriel wouldnt have been out of Place in a Mad Max film, and the last 2015 well then observation skills aren't your strong point. I hope you dont have the same observations on Turners Cross between 1990 and 2015!

Dundalk FC statement tonight.

https://scontent-ams2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f6&oe=56753892

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Originally Posted by Dunny

Dundalk FC statement tonight.

https://scontent-ams2-1.xx.fbcdn.net...f6&oe=56753892

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Anyone got a Oriel Park for Dummies/Outsiders guide ? cant seem to grasp the whole story or understand whats going on

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Originally Posted by SeanDMRooney

Anyone got a Oriel Park for Dummies/Outsiders guide ? cant seem to grasp the whole story or understand whats going on

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Yeah.
The whole fu**ing thing is a p*ss mess!
And i'm not giving you a smart answer here by the way because it is!
If you ever get a spare 2 hours + look it up on google using the search tags DundalkFC - Gerry Matthews- & - Lease.
That'll learn you to be asking ;)

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Originally Posted by mcgonigle

What a strange post seeing that the last few pages have been about the pitch length YDC on the shed side! Did you miss it as you were blinded by your rage at the "plastic pitch"?

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Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Were you stone drunk or something?

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Er, I might have been drowning my sorrows.

Before kick off.

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Originally Posted by mcgonigle

What a strange post seeing that the last few pages have been about the pitch length YDC on the shed side! Did you miss it as you were blinded by your rage at the "plastic pitch"?

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Originally Posted by Nesta99

3 time since circa 1990? We need to know the most recent visit Paddy as if the last of your 3 visits was 2006 well then it's not a surprise you didnt notice much change. If first visit was 1990 when Oriel wouldnt have been out of Place in a Mad Max film, and the last 2015 well then observation skills aren't your strong point. I hope you dont have the same observations on Turners Cross between 1990 and 2015!

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You couldn't seriously compare the massive changes to Turners Cross with Oriel Park?
My original comments were an honest reflection.
Oriel Park is an intimidating place to visit and is steeped in history and has an unrivaled tradition.

And your reference to Mad Max? Don't you mean Mad Maxi?

Just wondering what Wexford will need to do for next season to get ferrycarrig up to scratch the club house is brilliant but there isn't much else going for the ground.

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Originally Posted by Paddyfield

You couldn't seriously compare the massive changes to Turners Cross with Oriel Park?
And your reference to Mad Max? Don't you mean Mad Maxi?

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No I wasnt making a comparison more seeking an extreme of change example to refer to. Never noticed the potential pun to I could see him with a crazy mow hawk and crow feathered armour in a post apocalyptic world.

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Originally Posted by SeanDMRooney

Anyone got a Oriel Park for Dummies/Outsiders guide ? cant seem to grasp the whole story or understand whats going on

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The casey family own the land that oriel park sits on. It was as legend has it that des caseys dad stipulated in his will that as long as dundalk had a senior side that oriel park would be available to use and would never be sold.

In 2005 Gerry Matthews takes over dundalk fc purchases Hiney Park (land behind the Carrick road end) from the club for circa 800k. Oriel park gets somewhat redeveloped the old shed is torn down and that end is reduced. Around 2008 work begins on the ydc on the op grounds but also part of it is on Hiney park (which is owned by Matthews).
In 2011 to 2012 Gerry Matthews us struggling to support the club and his other business around town are taking a hammering and he wishes to sell the club.
Including the YDC included there is really no one who can take it on. The groups interested (fast fix and dfc trust) didn't need the ydc at that moment in time and wanted to concentrate on football matters.
As part of the take over deal GM and the fastfix/dfc trust agreed the club would be sublet by gm and he would control the ydc and controlling interests. This was against the wishes of des casey as terms of the op lease forbade subletting but in the interests the club who were probably days from folding he reluctantly agreed.
Because the new owners are in theory only subletting they won't pump much needed funds into oriel development as they are only subletting. Also they can't draw or apply for grants as they don't have any rights over op.
Also Hiney park owned by gm was sold in auction to a secondary school in town on which part of the ydc was built.

Mediation is due to take place. It will be very interesting to see the outcome but there is no love between the club and the gm or gm and the club and it is going to be a no holds barred sagging match between the 2.

Maybe Imo the only reasonable outcome would be the ydc being torn down .

Good summary Jinxy, but remember the lease is one of the biggest issues here, and GM appears to be the YDC as some sort of almost compulsory additional sale item, but as you suggest and are correct, nobody wants it.

I think if the current owners reach settlement in cash terms he might hand over the lease, then we can plan forward for the proper development of oriel park for spectators. I would probably agree removing the white elephant of YDC might well be on the cards.

Yeah.i still reckon my advice was right.Someone from Dundalk will always come in with a BUT this and a BUT that and the other ;)

What facilities does the YDC have? Is it hard surface inside or is there astro?

It has at least two small astro pitches that can be open as one I think, also there is a huge space for things like a convention centre, and they held a European badminton event years ago when it was being used. It may have a gym? Has at least one bar, possibly two, and underground parking. Think there is also office space.

Thanks for that. Surely that should be a huge part of the clubs plans for the future if it can be resolved amicably? I'm aware there would be big costs involved in the upkeep, but something like that has to be good for the club as a whole, or does Dundalk not have a schoolboys section?

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Originally Posted by D24Saint

Just wondering what Wexford will need to do for next season to get ferrycarrig up to scratch the club house is brilliant but there isn't much else going for the ground.

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Second entrance/exit would be needed anyway for away supporters. I'd imagine that could be put the bottom of the car park easily enough though.

A small temporary stand and a set of toilets, as well as the entrance/exit, would probably keep them going.

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Originally Posted by oriel

It has at least two small astro pitches that can be open as one I think, also there is a huge space for things like a convention centre, and they held a European badminton event years ago when it was being used. It may have a gym? Has at least one bar, possibly two, and underground parking. Think there is also office space.

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It has 3 5 a side pitches and one wooden size pitch, under ground parking for 150 cars, two party rooms for kids partys, soft drink bar down stairs, changing rooms& toilets, large bar upstairs and a gym.
pictures of the pitches here: http://www.dundalkfc.com/oriel-activ...s-in-pictures/
pictures of the european badminton here: http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=h...FVM52wodrtYMvg
Picture for outside: http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=h...FUaC2wodwXsLAA

I hope the club gets this issue sorted soon as I believe this has great potential for making extra €€€ for the club, also to have use of the facilities for the first team so close to the ground would be a big bonus, then you have the option of setting up a youth development centre as it was originally ment to be.

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Originally Posted by cob655

It has 3 5 a side pitches and one wooden size pitch, under ground parking for 150 cars, two party rooms for kids partys, soft drink bar down stairs, changing rooms& toilets, large bar upstairs and a gym.

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While it had had a lot of these facilities when it opened quite a bit of it is gone. The gym is nothing more than an empty room now and the actual bar furnishings including the bar itself have been removed and is now a large part of the new Russells.
It could definitely be a very good facility but it would take a good chunk of money to get it up to a decent workable standard. As it stands the only use it is at the minute is for a bit of five a side and some kids parties.

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Originally Posted by Yossarian

While it had had a lot of these facilities when it opened quite a bit of it is gone. The gym is nothing more than an empty room now and the actual bar furnishings including the bar itself have been removed and is now a large part of the new Russells.
It could definitely be a very good facility but it would take a good chunk of money to get it up to a decent workable standard. As it stands the only use it is at the minute is for a bit of five a side and some kids parties.

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Exactly the main bar was stripped out for Russell. AFAIK the gym also is literally empty. There is also no bar licence though the lilywhite one could be transferred I suppose.

At the moment it is just a big empty shed with a few 5 a side pitches in it . It has been spouted that it can generate revenue in the thousands for the club over a monthly basis but I fail to see how this will happen. Especially now since dkit have a similar facility now in the old jjb.

Tbh if it could generate the revenue then Matthews would be looking for and also the club would probably want it. Personally I think if we took it on it would haemorrhage cash from vital resources. Tearing the white elephant down may be the only viable option considering it sits on land owned by also 2 different individuals (casey family and the grammar school )

I still think we will be in Oriel for the foreseeable future and the mediation attempts will find a solution, hopefully all behind closed doors and away from a public slagging match between Matthews and the club. Though the findings will probably not be acceptable by the parties.

Did nobody think about the optics of it? It just looks like a warehouse at the back of the stadium. You wouldn't know it's an indoor sports centre unless somebody told you.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Did nobody think about the optics of it? It just looks like a warehouse at the back of the stadium. You wouldn't know it's an indoor sports centre unless somebody told you.

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With some vision, it could have incorporated a proper stand, corporate boxes, and still have been an indoor sports centre.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Did nobody think about the optics of it? It just looks like a warehouse at the back of the stadium. You wouldn't know it's an indoor sports centre unless somebody told you.

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Well that's it, GM is not a football man, never was, all his thinking was to provide additional income streams. When it was constructed it could easily have been modelled to have some football stadium look pitch side, even a better shed albeit with the limited space that is there.

Most supporters see it as just a backdrop to the shed and for something that closes in that side, it's a complete waste of space in my view, to sum it up, there is a site featuring Irish football grounds, think it's run out of UK. The shed side is called 'the factory side' enough said.

Every side of Oriel Park needs work, so if it was torn down, it would give more scope to improve the shed side. If planning could be sought for the stand side, increasing this all one side, but not a the same height would solve a lot problems, not least the away end.

The shed side could be replaced and a new structure along the lines of what Cork City have, camera facing side would be prefect.

I would look at a brand new stand behind the town goal, all of this would probably give a seating and covered capacity of 6k, this would be more than sufficient for European nights and the few domestic games needing this.

All that's missing is around €5 million, getting past the 2nd round in the CL next season would deliver 1.2 million.

There was a architects projection done and released that is very different than the reality.

I know it would cost more but if the YDC was to go it would be great to flip the pitch. Would make the site a lot more accessible and support future growth and development. The main stand minus the uncovered sides would fit perfectly behind a goal and is steep so would actually give a good view of the pitch.
Done that way decent stands could be added to each side along with keeping the road access.