Trap Out and/or Delaney Out

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Originally Posted by SkStu

Sorry but I can't place all that much faith in an article that relies solely on statistics to say whether or not Moyes has done a good job.

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I wouldn't either. I just think it's a great read just for the sake of it. Y'know 'cos we is all nerds here init.

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It doesn't (and probably can't) place sufficient weight on the state of the club over the last ten years. When you factor in the shambles that was Everton through Moyes' reign to where it is today, then his record is far more impressive than the simple story the stats tell.

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Completely agree!

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Also, this myth perpetuates that Everton play an ugly game, they are actually a lovely team to watch most of the time but are able to mix it up as needed.

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I would never say they are an ugly team. There have been times this year and in the last few years where they have been one of the teams I look forward to watching because of the football they play. In my eyes they play the game how I want Ireland (and how I set teams up in PES and FM etc) to play. There's purpose to what they do; there's not passing for passing's sake like with Wigan etc.

The game against Man City a couple of weeks ago was a case in point. Excellent stuff.

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He is not the perfect manager but he has worked miracles on a shoestring while numerous other clubs spent beyond their means and suffered relegation. I don't see him as a top 4 club manager though. Different set of expectations that he will never have encountered before. I think (and hope) he should stay with the toffees.

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I think there's a half truth to the adjustment he'll have to make. But I don't think there's a chasm there. And in fact I think it's more the likes of us and the media who are making that judgement on him rather than I would say his own self-confidence possesses.

I would love him to finish his job at Everton and turn them into a Top-4 ish team that get into the CL and win things like the FA Cup and League Cup etc.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

What wasn't even remotely marginal is thinking that Sammon should be thrown into a game like Austria as one of our best forwards. Trap's selection and response to Austrian pressure in the second half were hard to fathom, as have many of his previous decisions. This is the point that Hogan and others are missing. We know we're not a top-tier country, we are impressed by the away record, we know we don't have a glittering past or a tradition of pretty football and we know that individual errors cost us last week. But considered opinion is that Trap is just doing odd things, picking odd players, falling out with players, picking square pegs for round holes, ignoring strong claims from in-form players and rigidly attached to a formation we often struggle with.

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BINGO!

This is why I found the debate and discussion on here after the Austria game more informed and sensible than anything in the papers, online and on TV. The "we should be glad to have Trap" brigade ignore his failings.

And when they are that obvious as they were for the second half v Austria then we should be right to question why this man is in charge and why he made the awful decisions he did.

On the basis of that last statement by Stuttgart 88, he'd quite possibly do no worse than the present incumbent...

It doesn't matter what we think/want. In reality Delaney solely will make the call. I have no doubts that McDermott would be our manager today if we had lost our last two games. I thought something was up when Liam Brady was asked (just before Sweden game) who he believed should be the next Ireland manger. Brady praised Hughton, McCarthy (who has a get out clause in his Ipswich contract according to the Star if Ireland coming calling) and especially Coyle. But dismissed McDermott as being the right man for Ireland. I can't see another coach being appointed from outside Ireland or the UK. McDermotts chance has probably come and gone with our last two draws. Roy Keane has a better managerial record than McDermott but he won't get the job either. Not sure O'Neill would be interested but he is the stand out without a current job. I'm not sure McCarthy can do a whole lot with Ipswich other than top half of championship. The parachute payments for relegated Premiership clubs make it even harder for championship clubs to come up. I would still have McCarthy as slight favourite but not sure of his standing with Delaney.

Does anyone else notice that when Dunphy bangs on about something for long enough (McCarthy, Long, McClean, Hoolahan etc) everyone and their mother follow suit and start banging on about it. I know Trap's substitutions (or lack of, at the right time) were poor but Hoolahan is not our saviour, as good as he is.

I thought Tony O'Donoghue's interview with Trap post-match was a disgrace

Although i agree with your point, those 3 now they are in have made a big difference in the short time they have been involved. Perhaps a 4th would too? By no means a messiah though. But maybe we have all the other parts and he is the final cog.

Michael Appleton in the frame for the Leeds too, that would be club number 4 in the last 6 months for him, cant see what the hype about him is at all and wouldnt want him anywhere near the Irish job.

Yeah those players have made a difference.
But maybe because they weren't rushed into the fray.
I'd personally be starting Hoolahan but asking Trap is he going to resign after the last minute draw to Austria was disgraceful

I haven't a clue about McDermott, he was given the short straw to take a promoted team to the epl and expected to survive.
Managing a promoted club with petty cash to spend, has many variables affecting a manager's performance, which don't apply at Intl football level.
Bilic has a deserved reputation with Croatia but isn't exactly setting the world alight at club level (Lokomotiv Moscow).
Being good in one doesn't translate into being successful at the other. We know he's good because we have seen him with Croatia but who would take a gamble on him without that evidence or even just based on his club management record? Belgium are doing well with Marc Wilmots, almost zero experience.
There is no risk free appointment nor any sure bets.
It's also a question of who's available at the time the job becomes vacant, what salary the FAI will pay and who does the interviews. The next manager doesn't need to start until Feb 2014. The FAI did well with Trap's appointment and salary sponsorship, but when you include Tardelli's sizable fee, 50% (€1.25m p/a) of the whole current deal (€2.5m) still seems steep.

We are in 22nd place in the UEFA list and that looks fair enough. I just see one or two teams ahead of us who we might finish ahead of in a qualifier group and there are a few teams below us who could turn us over.

Yeah no appointment is risk free, but surely we have to play the percentages within reason. McDermott could turn out to be excellent and O'Neill could be a major disappointment. We can't tell the future but we should be looking for somebody who ticks the most boxes (I hate that expression but anyway!). O'Neill obviously ticks more than McDermott so would therefore be less of a gamble at this point in time, to use those two as examples.

Stutts likes ticking the boxes.

I didn't find any of T O'D's questions to be disgraceful. He might've gotten a little over-excited in asking Trap about his status as manager but pretty much every Irish fan in the stadium at that moment was thinking that our chances of qualifying were practically over so it was a fair question, imo.

I don't think anyone (bar Dunphy maybe) thinks Hoolahan is our would-be saviour, but any fool could see that the players were tiring after about 70 minutes and we were retreating and letting the Austrians come back into the game too easily. In such a situation, I imagine most managers would think "maybe I can bring someone on to freshen things up and keep hold of the ball in midfield a little bit better, ease the pressure on us". Hoolahan is the best equipped to do that and he was on the bench. If Trap called him up, he obviously thinks he can do something for the team. Yet, the thing which so needed to be done, was left undone, Wes stayed on the bench and the Austrian pressure eventually paid off for them.

Agree totally with paragraph 2 above. What's worse is that there were other plausible options too. Of all the possible options the ones Trap chose were among the worst, namely doing nothing for ages then leaving Sammon on, moving Walters upfront and putting Green on the right when we needed a ball winner in the middle. Mystifying.

Could Hoolahan have done anything in Stockholm to give Trap any doubts about bringing him on in Dublin? I don't think so.

Another myth is that Hoolahan is being hailed as sort of messiah. Nobody is saying that at all. He's just very obviously a talented player who's most comfortable playing a role / position that suited the circumstances perfectly.

I suspect Hoolahan would have made it on the pitch had the media not spent the entire 3-day build-up screaming WAT ABOUT HULAHAN???

It reflects badly on Trap that he acts like that but we know that he does, so it's depressing to see the Irish media continually beat the drum for certain players in the safe knowledge it will likely result in the manager being less likely to pick them.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Stutts likes ticking the boxes.

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Yes, and I think McDermott would be a very blue sky thought experiment. O'Neill would bring valuable mission critical experience.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I suspect Hoolahan would have made it on the pitch had the media not spent the entire 3-day build-up screaming WAT ABOUT HULAHAN???

It reflects badly on Trap that he acts like that but we know that he does, so it's depressing to see the Irish media continually beat the drum for certain players in the safe knowledge it will likely result in the manager being less likely to pick them.

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I totally hear what you're saying but I think it reflects worse on the manager tbh...the sports journalists are really just doing what sports journalists around the world do. If there's a case to be made for inclusion and if results are poor, then it's fair to ask the manager why not...

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I totally hear what you're saying but I think it reflects worse on the manager tbh...the sports journalists are really just doing what sports journalists around the world do. If there's a case to be made for inclusion and if results are poor, then it's fair to ask the manager why not...

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Totally, and I'm not sure what else the press should do, but their tendency to elect a new messiah every few months makes it very easy for Trap. I really hope that Hoolahan isn't forgotten the same way Andy Reid et al were. Long, at least, has managed to outlive his media kiss of death.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Another myth is that Hoolahan is being hailed as sort of messiah. Nobody is saying that at all. He's just very obviously a talented player who's most comfortable playing a role / position that suited the circumstances perfectly.

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Though the (populus horribilis) RTE campaign is embarrassing in its elevation of Hoolahan to messiah status. I already pointed out the RTE montage of Hoolahan's contributions, before the Austria game, the overhit pass to an inrushing Andy Keogh (Sweden game) was interpreted as a perfect pass but Andy was out of position.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Though the (populus horribilis) RTE campaign is embarrassing in its elevation of Hoolahan to messiah status. I already pointed out the RTE montage of Hoolahan's contributions, before the Austria game, the overhit pass to an inrushing Andy Keogh (Sweden game) was interpreted as a perfect pass but Andy was out of position.

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Ronnie Whelan nailed it in commentary: Keogh should have stayed out wide, where he is most effective, crossing the ball into an empty box. Hoolahan was forced to overhit his pass by Keogh's ridiculous striker's run into a goalscoring position.

One day Charlie, your wet dream, an Andy Keogh absolute screamer killer goal, will be fulfilled.

I've already lost 50k betting on just such an eventuality, but it will all be worth it when he finally pays out.

How (not) to pick a new manager

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/b...nager-research

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

I don't think anyone (bar Dunphy maybe) thinks Hoolahan is our would-be saviour, but any fool could see that the players were tiring after about 70 minutes and we were retreating and letting the Austrians come back into the game too easily. In such a situation, I imagine most managers would think "maybe I can bring someone on to freshen things up and keep hold of the ball in midfield a little bit better, ease the pressure on us". Hoolahan is the best equipped to do that and he was on the bench. If Trap called him up, he obviously thinks he can do something for the team. Yet, the thing which so needed to be done, was left undone, Wes stayed on the bench and the Austrian pressure eventually paid off for them.

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Didn't he bring on Hoolahan against Sweden who created a very similar chance with the last shot of the game. Pressure almost paid off for them as well except they fluffed it, Austria scored. And all that with Hoolahan on the pitch.

Objection!

Keogh gave away a totally dumb (I mean really really really thick) free kick which led to Sweden's chance. The defence then got caught under a high ball.

Totally unfair to blame Hoolahan.

Overruled!

I am not blaming Hoolahan. My point is that there is a huge ground swell of opinion that IF Hoolahan was on the pitch, we wouldn't have given up that chance in the 92nd minute. He was on the pitch against Sweden. We gave up a chance even if it was Keogh's fault. The team was in such a nervous state at that stage he would have been running around like a blue ars*d fly trying to get hold of the ball.

But we'll never know...

That's not really what's being said. More that it is more likely that with Wes on the pitch we would have been able to retain the ball a bit better and would have been more likely to slow the game down and see it out. Well always give up chances, its about keeping the ball long enough to reduce the amount of chances you give up.

Reports on the radio that McLeish is after the Ireland job once Trap goes...

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Reports on the radio that McLeish is after the Ireland job once Trap goes...

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Trap in!

This article might be better suited to the eligibility thread. CTP sent it onto me, got me annoyed again about the Austria result...

http://www.irishpost.co.uk/news/am-i...ation-question

Let's hope he hangs on for another decade then...if he's the alternative.

Article about Marty replacing Trap:
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/sp...201227961.html

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

Article about Marty replacing Trap:
http://www.irishcentral.com/story/sp...201227961.html

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more about Di Canio replacing O'Neill than Trapattoni

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Originally Posted by Cathal Dervan

The draw with Austria – when luck ran out finally for our lucky manager Giovanni Trapattoni – means the World Cup is already a foregone conclusion for this Irish team – with the emphasis on the gone part of foregone!

No matter how much Trapattoni and his players pretend it will all come down to the autumn games against Sweden and Austria, we will not be going to Brazil next year.

We might get to the playoffs, by a miracle, but that is as much as Ireland’s fans can hope for now as long as Trapattoni stays in charge.

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If we do get to the playoffs we'll obviously picked up a couple of decent results, so I'm not sure how anybody could totally rule out qualification at that point. Talk about covering himself just in case we happen to make the top two. Terrible article overall anyway.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

If we do get to the playoffs we'll obviously picked up a couple of decent results, so I'm not sure how anybody could totally rule out qualification at that point. Talk about covering himself just in case we happen to make the top two. Terrible article overall anyway.

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The aftermath of the Austria game has given me the clarification that there is more informed discussion on Foot.ie than within the pages of our papers.

That's just drivel.

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Originally Posted by DeLorean

If we do get to the playoffs we'll obviously picked up a couple of decent results, so I'm not sure how anybody could totally rule out qualification at that point. Talk about covering himself just in case we happen to make the top two. Terrible article overall anyway.

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Cathal Dervan is a t**t. Martin O'Neill is an even bigger one. I don't think I could bring myself to following a MON team. Depressing stuff.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Interesting perspective here:

Enough has been written about Giovanni Trapattoni.

What alarmed us most was a recent Kevin Kilbane revelation that during his time playing under the Italian, Trap hardly ever spoke at half-time. I’ve been in dressing rooms all around the country in my other capacity as a performance psychology consultant and one issue that teams and managers constantly review is how effectively they use half-time.............

Trap has been unable – and unwilling – to provide that. Which is another reason why, at the end of this campaign, he’ll have everyone telling him a word everyone will clearly understand. Ciao.

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Kevin Kilbane has had the hump ever since Trap got rid of him for younger full backs. His views should be seen in that context.

A few weeks ago, he went on a rant on how Trap was in Milan during a EPL weekend. In fact, Trap was in Dublin announcing the squad and attending a LOI game.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

There have been times this year and in the last few years where they have been one of the teams I look forward to watching because of the football they play. In my eyes they play the game how I want Ireland (and how I set teams up in PES and FM etc) to play.

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This is the World Cup, a 15-month serious business with emotion and excitement involved, it's not PES where you can play it again 10 minutes later.

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The "we should be glad to have Trap" brigade ignore his failings.

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He is our most successful coach since Mick, and has a proven record here and elsewhere, of getting the job done. The Trappasceptics fail to see that.

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And when they are that obvious as they were for the second half v Austria then we should be right to question why this man is in charge and why he made the awful decisions he did.

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Austria had little to offer in the second half, in the end it took a 30-yard potshot to go in via a deflection in injury time. Another 2 minutes, and what happened in the second half wouldn't have mattered.

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Originally Posted by Yard of Pace

I didn't find any of T O'D's questions to be disgraceful. pretty much every Irish fan in the stadium at that moment was thinking that our chances of qualifying were practically over so it was a fair question, imo.

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We are level with second place with 5 games to go. Our chances of qualification are far from over.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Austria had little to offer in the second half

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Do you seriously believe that? Everyone I was sitting with saw a good chance coming, if not a goal. We disappeared for the last 20 minutes.

Like you, I don't think our chances are over though. We have to win the mini-group of ourselves, Austria and Sweden, including all our results against Kazakhstan & Faroes.

We have got the necessary 6 points away to the latter two, and I think Austria have failed to do that. I expect we'll get 6 at home too.

We are arguably 3 points up on Sweden who I'm sure expected to beat us. But that's a hypothetical 3 points. The table says we have a point each from that game. Sweden have a point from Germany that I doubt we'll get, and they may get at least one more in the last game.

I also think that Sweden could well get 6 points from Austria, and I expect at least 4. I don't think they'll drop a point to the "minnows". Therefore, although 4 points from Sweden and Austria might well put us in a good place, I really do expect we'll need 6, and we absolutely will have to beat Sweden. I suppose the key is the two Sweden vs Austria results. If Sweden win both we're goosed.

I don't think we'll be the worst r'up if we come second.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Do you seriously believe that? Everyone I was sitting with saw a good chance coming, if not a goal. We disappeared for the last 20 minutes.

We are arguably 3 points up on Sweden who I'm sure expected to beat us. But that's a hypothetical 3 points. The table says we have a point each from that game. Sweden have a point from Germany that I doubt we'll get, and they may get at least one more in the last game.

I also think that Sweden could well get 6 points from Austria, and I expect at least 4. I don't think they'll drop a point to the "minnows". Therefore, although 4 points from Sweden and Austria might well put us in a good place, I really do expect we'll need 6, and we absolutely will have to beat Sweden. I suppose the key is the two Sweden vs Austria results. If Sweden win both we're goosed.

I don't think we'll be the worst r'up if we come second.

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It's all hypothetical. I couldn't see Austria scoring from 30 yards in injury time, but they did.

What matters is where we are and we have the same points as them and Sweden now. We got 3 points from our games against Russia and Slovakia last time and it was enough. We may need more than that this time, we may not. We'll only know that at the end of the campaign.

It's grating me hearing we lost to a 30 yard wonder goal. Alaba's standing foot is on the arc of the "d" when he shoots. So 20yd's then.

In the context of results against the other teams, Sweden are a point up over ourselves and Austria with a point gained against Germany, with a home game to come.
Austria are down two points against Kazakhstan compared to ourselves and Sweden.

Austria have the toughest run-in I reckon, while there is a much-of-a-muchness whether ourselves or Sweden have the easier run in.
The next round of games, with us all but certain to beat the Faroes, means the pivotal game at the moment is the Austria-Sweden game on the same night. I think the Austrian's have to go for the win, because I don't see them winning again until the final night. I base that on a very good away record (statistically speaking - we've been awful in some away games) Trapattoni is on at present, and the fact that Austria won't be Sweden or the Mannschaft away.
In conclusion, go Osterreich!

I suppose we can be a little bit more optimistic about Sweden's mediocrity than at the start of the campaign. There's no point in predicting the results for the rest of the year really without knowing the circumstances, but I'm pretty sure we'll take three points from the Faroes game and I'd be hopeful that Sweden won't win in Vienna. The table will have a nicer look to it then with Sweden coming to Dublin. If Sweden do win in Vienna it could be game over ball burst.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Austria had little to offer in the second half, in the end it took a 30-yard potshot to go in via a deflection in injury time. Another 2 minutes, and what happened in the second half wouldn't have mattered.

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Austria were all over us for the last half hour.

I thought Tony O'Donoghue's interview was awful but to say Austria had little to offer is just wrong.