Ultras

Looking for some advice and suggestions.

A bit of background as to what i'm talking about:

We set up an ultra group in bray called na fanaithe at the start of the season, at the time the club and supporters club were all for it, but now the supporters club dont want anything to do with the name 'ultras' as they see it as something bad and the club have been trying to stamp it out at home games. There was a small incident outside the ground against drogheda (after the match) confrontation between fans - singin and chanting at each other etc, (local paper called it a riot!) nothing serious at all but we were blamed (most were still in the ground packing up the flags etc) and since then the group are not allowed use the word 'ultras' and they have threatened us that we wont be allowed back into the carlisle or use the supporters club bus to go to the away games... They are also blaming the 'ultras' for the bad language been used in songs etc. I been going to games for years and we havent changed many songs at all! Its like as soon as we get a name its our faultor if any incidents occur its our fault... Up in sligo on saturday the supporters club were a complete joke. (read our forum for more..)

Basically i'm asking has this happened in other clubs with ultra groups and what have people done about it? or what do you think we can do about it?

Any help/advice will be appreciated.

Thanks :ball:

all ya can really do is just try and open a dialogue with the club. just sit down with them and tell them what its all about. just tell them it may bring more fans in and that if there's any trouble that you's will do your best to stamp it out and remove anyone who's trying to create a hooligan element. aside from just maybe asking for more stewarding around you's and maybe staying in the ground after the games for a while theres not much else ya's can do

Our supporters group had a silent protest well not really a silent one but when anyone said anything in the ground the whole group went ssssshhhhhhhhhhh.

It resulted in everyone hearing all the bad language on the pitch and from the dugouts and made everyone realise it is part of the game

My personal view is that supporters groups should avoid using the word 'ultra'.

Whether we like it or not, the word 'ultra' has developed clear associations with the problem of football hooliganism across Europe. To pretend that isn't so is niaive, as it would also be to think that the word can be 'saved' from this negative connotation by a handful of Irish football fans. It would be asking too much of human nature in general, and journalists in particular, to expect the wider world to be able to or to even want to differentiate between 'good' and 'bad' ultras. It's therefore just so much easier to avoid the name full-stop.

It's like the word 'Republican' in Ireland. I am a 'Republican' in the original sense of the word - in that I believe in constitutional democracy over any form of monarchy as the political structure of a state. In Ireland that word morphed firstly to describe those who support a United Ireland (you could have a British Republic without the Queen !), and then more lately to describe those who propose a militant path to securing that United Ireland. Hence - Unionists who would be happy without the monarchy are 'Republicans' in the original sense of the word, but not in its new meaning in Ireland. Words change meaning over time.

No doubt I'll get barracked for this, but it's my personal view on the word 'ultra'. The English and Irish languages are full of suitable words and names to call supporter groups. There is absolutely no need to use one that has clear associations with football hooliganism - even if it's to name a group that will have zero association with hooliganism itself.

Plus 'ultras' is a sh!t Euro-pop name that sounds daft in the English language, and refers to washing detergents in a non-footballing context..... :D

Steve, I think most Irish fans know what Irish Ultras are about and don't associate them with violence at games. In my experience its only the cops (predominantly in "The Rebel County") who can't tell the difference. Having said that Ultras groups don't necessarily have to have the word Ultra in their name. NBB and SEI don't for example.

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Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Steve, I think most Irish fans know what Irish Ultras are about and don't associate them with violence at games.

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Drifting into Bohs langauage, the vast majority don't have a clue. FACT.

First of all, foot.ie is completly the wrong place to be talking about this kind of thing, because half the posters are going to be against ultras or the word ultra, like dcfcsteve and the other half (well maybe not halves) would be for it and it will just develop into a big ridiculus arguement.

If you did set up a meeting with the club you could point out the other groups, like us at Shels, have been calling ourselves ultras for years and have a fine relationship with the club, and other supporters at Shels seem to appriciate the fact that more colour and atmosphere is generated by the ultras. And Im sure its the same at other clubs.

Your group is called Na Fanithe, so what exactly is the clubs problem? Do you have a banner saying "Ultras" or something or is it just that they dont like you calling yourselves that? I know it might come across the wrong way but I dont think an ultra group should really be caring what other people think of them or if people think they're hooligans.

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Originally Posted by Maribor

Drifting into Bohs langauage, the vast majority don't have a clue. FACT.

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Maybe not in Doire but Bohs fans know what the NBB is about, and I'm sure the same can be said for the SRFC Ultras, BD, SEI and F45.

Yeah, thats what I was getting at.

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Originally Posted by Joey Killester

First of all, foot.ie is completly the wrong place to be talking about this kind of thing, because half the posters are going to be against ultras or the word ultra, like dcfcsteve and the other half (well maybe not halves) would be for it and it will just develop into a big ridiculus arguement.

If you did set up a meeting with the club you could point out the other groups, like us at Shels, have been calling ourselves ultras for years and have a fine relationship with the club, and other supporters at Shels seem to appriciate the fact that more colour and atmosphere is generated by the ultras. And Im sure its the same at other clubs.

Your group is called Na Fanithe, so what exactly is the clubs problem? Do you have a banner saying "Ultras" or something or is it just that they dont like you calling yourselves that? I know it might come across the wrong way but I dont think an ultra group should really be caring what other people think of them or if people think they're hooligans.

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I'm not certain but I think the flags that were taken had `green ultras` written on them. People seem to automatically link ultras with casuals and hooligan firms. I definitely reckon that the name Na Fanaithe should be used as much as possible but the fact is that we are an ultra supporters group who wish to support our team and have the backing of our club. A meeting may be the way to go, hopefully the club will be more open-minded if any meeting takes place.

There have been some trouble makers (hard boys :rolleyes:) about. IMO all we can do is set a good example through our behavior and not partake in any chants or activity's that over-step the mark and tell a few people to cop-on... it would seem that some people within the club expect more than that from us... well I can't force people to do things and I damn sure don't pump as much money as I do into the club to spend my Friday's being treated like a criminal and expected to act like a steward!

all ya can really do is try and follow the ways of the BD and other groups. shels have no problem with the BD(allowing them to keep the gear in tolka and lettin them come in early to set up) because they know the atmosphere has improved and that if there is any trouble in the stands, the members of the BD would be the first to try and cut it out. this sort of relationship between club and ultras group can only be developed over time

Every second week a new Club seems to be calling themselves Ultras.
Waving a few flags and banging drums does not make your group "Ultras".Ultras are extremists,doing extraordinary,radical and passionate displays.
If the likes of Bray/sligo/Limerick/Drogheda etc think they're Ultras have a look at what Rovers and Bohs do.Even better would be to have a look at the Italian/Greek or other European Ultras.
Ultras are fanatics,caring for nothing bar their Club and what they represent.

11 lads from Bray,waving 6 flags,banging 3 drums and blowing 2 Air horns are NOT an ultras group.

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Originally Posted by Conor H

Every second week a new Club seems to be calling themselves Ultras.
Waving a few flags and banging drums does not make your group "Ultras".Ultras are extremists,doing extraordinary,radical and passionate displays.
If the likes of Bray/sligo/Limerick/Drogheda etc think they're Ultras have a look at what Rovers and Bohs do.Even better would be to have a look at the Italian/Greek or other European Ultras.
Ultras are fanatics,caring for nothing bar their Club and what they represent.

11 lads from Bray,waving 6 flags,banging 3 drumsand blowing 2 Air horns are NOT an ultras group.

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I think we do as well as we can, comparing ourselves to the likes of Panathinaikos isn't worthwile IMO. We will hopefully organise the odd flair display, the club seem to be relatively receptive to this in the event of a big game such as a cup semi etc.

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Originally Posted by Conor H

Every second week a new Club seems to be calling themselves Ultras.
Waving a few flags and banging drums does not make your group "Ultras".Ultras are extremists,doing extraordinary,radical and passionate displays.
If the likes of Bray/sligo/Limerick/Drogheda etc think they're Ultras have a look at what Rovers and Bohs do.Even better would be to have a look at the Italian/Greek or other European Ultras.
Ultras are fanatics,caring for nothing bar their Club and what they represent.

11 lads from Bray,waving 6 flags,banging 3 drumsand blowing 2 Air horns are NOT an ultras group.

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Great point, alot of the groups in Ireland call themselves "Ultras" for the sake of it, they don't know what it really means.

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Originally Posted by Stevo Da Gull

I think we do as well as we can, comparing ourselves to the likes of Panathinaikos isn't worthwile IMO. We will hopefully organise the odd flair display, the club seem to be relatively receptive to this in the event of a big game such as a cup semi etc.

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Ye do and fair play.
But why call yereself Ultras?No offence,but ye're most certainly not "Ultras".

In fairness to Drogheda F45 they've done some really good displays. Particularly towards the end of the season.

well what else can you do nowadays in the eircom league for a display that wont get the club fined?

we're supporting the club not getting them fcuked!!

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Originally Posted by Conor H

Ye do and fair play.
But why call yereself Ultras?No offence,but ye're most certainly not "Ultras".

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I see what you're saying. As far as I'm concerned we are Na Fanaithe. Basically an independent supporters group who embrace many of the ultra's ideals - from wikipedia :

The four core points of the ultra mentality are:

* never stop singing or chanting during a match, no matter what the result
* never sit down during a match
* attend as many games as possible (home and away), regardless of cost or distance
* loyalty to the stand in which the group is located (also known as the Curva or Kop).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultras

Theres more to being an ultra then looking up wikipedia.

That link in itself is embarrassing.

I don't think the size of your group matters small groups have pulled off some great tifo in the past so I think Connor H's post about the size of your group is irrelevant. But there are a lot of lads in Ireland who are calling themselves ultras and don't really understand or have the mentality there is more to being ultra then just using a few flares and flags. It's more then that it's a way of life.

What I would say is and it's been pointed out already but this site wouldn't be the best place for advice on ultras. Just keep doing your thing in time you will gain the respect from those who matter there will always be people who are ignorant to the scene but their opinions don't really matter.

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11 lads from Bray,waving 6 flags,banging 3 drums and blowing 2 Air horns are NOT an ultras group

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is that a joke? .......Either way size is irrelevent

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Theres more to being an ultra then looking up wikipedia.

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Agree with you 100%

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there are a lot of lads in Ireland who are calling themselves ultras and don't really understand or have the mentality there is more to being ultra then just using a few flares and flags. It's more then that it's a way of life.

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How come you think its not a way of life to us?

I never said Bray

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Originally Posted by Joey Killester

Theres more to being an ultra then looking up wikipedia.

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I'm sorry, perhaps I should spend all day ringing around the leaders of Europe's elite ultras and asking their advice on the situation. I'm well aware that there is more to being an ultra than sitting in front of a computer ;)

i know from section os experience that the club have bein on our back practically all season.. where we all got the problems was the athlone town match when a few young scuts from our side went behind the goal to taunt athlone fans. this also occurred at half time and after the match in the car park.. myself and a few of the older section o lads got severe hassle after the game from the club they were practically screamin in our faces.. they literally wanted section o to run section o which is stupid...

the only way i could do this was write a letter of complaint to the longford leader not only was it published but it was discussed at the board meetin and the club secretrary rang me apologised to me and a resolution was resolved... couldnt believe how nice the stewards were to us on sat night! section o dont have to run section o.. result!

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Originally Posted by Stevo Da Gull

I see what you're saying. As far as I'm concerned we are Na Fanaithe. Basically an independent supporters group who embrace many of the ultra's ideals - from wikipedia :

The four core points of the ultra mentality are:

* never stop singing or chanting during a match, no matter what the result
* never sit down during a match
* attend as many games as possible (home and away), regardless of cost or distance
* loyalty to the stand in which the group is located (also known as the Curva or Kop).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultras

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The Carlisle Curva!
What's wrong with the obvious, talk to the club and find some middle ground- seeing the club as the enemy isn't getting anyone anywhere...

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

....... section o dont have to run section o.. result!

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Martinho II you are a credit to how to support a football team and that maybe why younger fans are attracted to your side of the stadium.

But if you don't control the fans around you, especially if they are likely to listen to you. Who does and who should?

am i the only person who cringes at the word "Ultra"?

we recently set up Forza Rovers (www.forzarovers.tk), as far as im concerned, were the crowd in the Jinks that sings and waves flags,bangs drums etc...

With fines etc. for displays usin pyro, its hard for "Ultra groups" to thrive in this country.

We do what we can, a few flares now and again, a few smoke bombs etc.
But as Rovers1 said its hard to do anything proper when you have constant fines being fired out and the board constantly on their back (understandibly I might add).
Anyway do what you can, singing, support etc, and see where ya can go from there. If it grows all the better.

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Originally Posted by Rovers1

am i the only person who cringes at the word "Ultra"?

we recently set up Forza Rovers (www.forzarovers.tk), as far as im concerned, were the crowd in the Jinks that sings and waves flags,bangs drums etc...

With fines etc. for displays usin pyro, its hard for "Ultra groups" to thrive in this country.

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Am I the only one who cringes at the name "Forza Rovers" as a name for a group? Also, an ultra group shouldnt have to rely on pyro for displays. Saying its hard to be an Ultra group in Ireland because of fines for pyro is incredibly ignorant. We have only used pyro once this season and that wasnt even for a display and we've had a display practically every match.

And as far as Na Fanithe calling thelselves ultras, I personally wouldnt call a group of lads who spray their hair green for matches ultras.

Even by the standards of stupid made-up Irish names, 'Na Fanaithe' is particularly embarrassing.
Saw the Bray lads at recent the Drogheda game. Made lots of noise and were pretty colourful. Didn't look as they were going to riot in the streets afterwards. Best of luck to them.

There'll be a meeting at the club tonight between the SC and Na Fánaithe. We'll see how it goes.

Here's a bebo page I found from googling 'Na Fanaithe'.

http://secure.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=6216452643

I'm not suggesting that this page is representative of your ultras in any way, but doesn't create the greatest of impressions either.

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Your sister is mother, your uncle is your brother, your fcuking one another, the rovers family

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Them bohs, them bohs need herion, them bohs , them bohs need herion.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Here's a bebo page I found from googling 'Na Fanaithe'.

http://secure.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=6216452643

I'm not suggesting that this page is representative of your ultras in any way, but doesn't create the greatest of impressions either.

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I'll mention that at the meeting tonight if no one else does ;)

Nice find,

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Originally Posted by osarusan

Here's a bebo page I found.......

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Did you share the Luv, Osarusan.

anther quote from the site
"Its not about knowing the history, knowing the team that played in the 1980 cup final,knowing last season stats thats makes you the best,
makes you a fan.....
Its about being their for your team,....

I heard that John Regan, or whoever, who scored a hattrick in that match is a Top Man.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

My personal view is that supporters groups should avoid using the word 'ultra'.

Whether we like it or not, the word 'ultra' has developed clear associations with the problem of football hooliganism across Europe. To pretend that isn't so is niaive, as it would also be to think that the word can be 'saved' from this negative connotation by a handful of Irish football fans. It would be asking too much of human nature in general, and journalists in particular, to expect the wider world to be able to or to even want to differentiate between 'good' and 'bad' ultras. It's therefore just so much easier to avoid the name full-stop.

It's like the word 'Republican' in Ireland. I am a 'Republican' in the original sense of the word - in that I believe in constitutional democracy over any form of monarchy as the political structure of a state. In Ireland that word morphed firstly to describe those who support a United Ireland (you could have a British Republic without the Queen !), and then more lately to describe those who propose a militant path to securing that United Ireland. Hence - Unionists who would be happy without the monarchy are 'Republicans' in the original sense of the word, but not in its new meaning in Ireland. Words change meaning over time.

No doubt I'll get barracked for this, but it's my personal view on the word 'ultra'. The English and Irish languages are full of suitable words and names to call supporter groups. There is absolutely no need to use one that has clear associations with football hooliganism - even if it's to name a group that will have zero association with hooliganism itself.

Plus 'ultras' is a sh!t Euro-pop name that sounds daft in the English language, and refers to washing detergents in a non-footballing context..... :D

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I came on here just to post that.

Calling yourself "Ultra's" immediately gives you a reputation that you don't want.

And it's just not good enough to say "well nobody has a clue what Ultra's are about" because that's not the point.

People don't have to educate themselves about your group. Alright, the Gardai should but you're more or less making their minds for them calling yourselves Ultra's.

It'd be like me setting up a group called the National Front then complaining about the negative associations.

In this instance it seems ye've been hard done by, but you really only have yourselves to blame.

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Originally Posted by Joey Killester

Am I the only one who cringes at the name "Forza Rovers" as a name for a group? Also, an ultra group shouldnt have to rely on pyro for displays. Saying its hard to be an Ultra group in Ireland because of fines for pyro is incredibly ignorant. We have only used pyro once this season and that wasnt even for a display and we've had a display practically every match.

And as far as Na Fanithe calling thelselves ultras, I personally wouldnt call a group of lads who spray their hair green for matches ultras.

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when i said its hard to to displays, i meant pyro pyro displays, fair enough, we can use our tifos.

but by the look of your signature, you look like you know all...
so ill keep quiet. ;)

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Originally Posted by joey4ireland

Ffs sake they shouldn't be harrassed just cause they are called ultras. If they cause trouble then yes they should be paid attention to by the authorities but they never did do anything so there should not be a problem with them

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Its extremely niaive to think a football group can call itself 'ultras' without some people in the media and elsewhere associating them with the negative side of Ultra culture elsewhere in Europe.

It's just a lot easier to avoid the name, and then people won't be able to amke a lazy assumption about your group. Is the name 'ultra' that brilliant a title for a fan's group that it must be used regardless of the negative connotations it brings.....?

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Originally Posted by HarpoJoyce

Martinho II you are a credit to how to support a football team and that maybe why younger fans are attracted to your side of the stadium.

But if you don't control the fans around you, especially if they are likely to listen to you. Who does and who should?

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i discussed this with the secretary last week the club have a very good idea who the culprits are... they will have a quiet word with them as they come in from outside the ground and told in no uncertain terms that they will be not welcome again.. and a letter to be sent to their home address.. secretary didnt agree with us patrolling ourselves harpojoyce he said that stewards are the ones that have bein trained.. he did say do that if we notice anyone untoward immediately to go to a steward and they will take the necessary action against these individuals...

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Originally Posted by Martinho II

i discussed this with the secretary last week the club have a very good idea who the culprits are... they will have a quiet word with them as they come in from outside the ground and told in no uncertain terms that they will be not welcome again.. and a letter to be sent to their home address.. secretary didnt agree with us patrolling ourselves harpojoyce he said that stewards are the ones that have bein trained.. he did say do that if we notice anyone untoward immediately to go to a steward and they will take the necessary action against these individuals...

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i might be a bit behind here Marty, think you may have even told me yourself the last time SRIWFC was in Longford, but what happened exaclty?