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recent rumours have been confirmed.hawkins,bobby ryan and glen crowe have all signed for shels.
i know its a little early to be talkin about next season and all but whatever about hawkins,with ryan and crowe they will have some team for the next season.
it will be some challenge next year to top them.that said bohs have been left high and dry with arguably their 3 best players leaving.
Yes, the Judas bas***ds have done us no favours, but our BEST player has remained.... the living legend, Kevin Hunt!Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie
Like the pheonix from the ashes, we will rise once again...
Bohs till I die.
Shels can buy in as much talent as they can fit on the banks of the Tolka River for all I care. IMO they are following a risky financial route in doing so. They will probably get lucky for a season or two. But that kind of luck has to last every year because the European competition windfalls are not enough to supplement their poor earnings in the domestic competitions.
Bottom line is, with Shels burning money on expensive wage bills, they will be trading recklessly, with their financial projections dependent on a considerable element of luck.
And after the crash, players who want to be paid for playing footy will come looking for their jobs back, and believe me when I say, they will still be plenty young enough to play at the top level. ;)
The other clubs in the Premier and First divisions, who still take the long term approach by basing their main development on building their player base from within their own communities, will have the last laugh.
$hels have claimed that they are €350,000 in debt. IF they can be pushed into 3rd place in any of the next 2 seasons, they are totally fcuked.
Personally, I want City to concentrate 100% on the league next year. Treat every league game like it was a cup final, and both the league Cup and FAI cup should be very secondary targets. We won't play in the UEFA cup until September, so I would want City to be first or second in the table by then, and be at least 6 points ahead of all the other teams. Use the Setanta cup to get money, but not allow it to affect any league games we have at the same time.
It is A PRIORITY to stop $hels from getting 3 in a row, because we are now staring at the Rosenboug nightmare scenario.....:(
I think the Rosenbourg scenario is exactly what Irish football needs. Fair play to Shels. Never mind the begrudgers. Here's hoping that Shels can continue to raise the bar for the rest of the league to aim at. Champions League group phase would do nicely next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsh
Quote:
Originally Posted by patsh
Its actually july!
If city had won the league last night we would have been seeded in the champions league draw. That would have been down to Shels performance in europe last season.
As Anita a norwegian poster on aonther site remarked " Btw, Ricardo, thx for full info on CLQR1. My point was that Ireland and Belarus would change place this year in seeding, due to Shelbournes excellent campaign this season. Those small steps for small countries. Like Confucius said; 'Every journey starts with the first step'. So beware, Ireland are on their way "
Well, its time for shels, city and Longford to do it next season.
Patsh, I agree that the Rosenburg situation would mean the end of domestic soccer as a meaningful competition. It would be the equivalent of a long "Kick The Bar" contest to amuse fans between european matches.
But the Eircom League is a long way from that IMO. Shels know that they were a bounce of the ball away from losing the league this year. The Eircom league is far too competitive still. I believe that even with the new signings, it is likely that Bohs and Drogs and CCFC will be title challengers again next season, and I would say that the tide is going in our favour. We have a rich harvest of young players emerging from the underage level. And look at our current squad. At 24 years, Neal Horgan is the 4th oldest!!
And as for Shels going into liquidation as a result of foolhardy spending, if that does happen (and I think it will, sooner rather than later) I think that few real football supporters will shed a tear; the club is little more than a business. The people behind it could not give a toss for football, IMO, so why should the true Shels supporters feel any differently, when there are other clubs in Dublin which reflect a love of the game for itself, and who would welcome their support.
any stories with regards new faces for next season?
with regards the fella that hopes shels turn into a rosenbourg-have you gone mad?i'm all for clubs raising the bar for the rest of the league but roenbourg have set the bar so high only them can surpass it.that would mean no 1 would be interested in investing in any other club in the league besides themselves. leaving them miles ahead of the rest of the league.
What in the name of jaysus are you whittering on about? You accuse Shels of being run at a loss, then say the people running it run it like a business and don't give a toss about football. If you're going to come up with the usual bitter sh*te about Shels at least make it half decent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair_play_boy
Oh sorry, you are right and I am just a little begrudger, I forgot that I shouldn't want the club I support to win the league...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJamaicanP.M.
Yes it would be excellent for Irish football if $hels won the league year after year after year...:rolleyes:
*%*/+$*&".....:mad:
The Rosenborg situation would be an abolute disaster, but as Sheridans post showed, Shels making the CL wouldn't cause that to happen. Back to back titles wont cause that to happen either, teams in the past have won 2 or more titles back to back and we've never had a Rosenborg situation.
Team in the past did not have the possibility of getting enormous amounts, (in eL terms), of money. If $hels get to the CL group stages, they could possibly get an income equal to all the other clubs put together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
I don't begrudge $hels their success, it was up to us to stop them and we didn't, (if we had gained even 1 point aginst you at home, we would have won the league), but I'm sick to death of being told that I'm a begrudger and that it can't ahppen. It has happened in every league in the world. The team that has the most money, so can buy all the best players, dominates the league.
That's just simply not the case. Dig up Sheridans post from around the time of the Deportivo game, it shows that that just isn't true.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsh
i have to agree with slash/ed, its simply not true.
Chelsea, Man U, Arsenal in England.
Celtic/Rangers in Scotland.
Rosenbourg in Norway.
Bayern in Germany
Juventus, AC and Inter Milan in Italy
and on and on and on.
These teams have the most money, they DOMINATE their leagues.
$hels have the potential to earn money which is way out of proportion to this league. IF they get it, they will COMPLETELY DOMINATE this league.
Don't keep saying that it can't happen , IT CAN.
All the above mentioned clubs have access to money.
Rosenbourg have got their money from continued acccess to the CL, and earn far more money than any of their local rivals can generate.
How many clubs in the eL could have added Honker, Crowe and Ryan to their already highly paid squad, pay them for the next 4 months without any games?
My guess is NONE except $hels.
I don't begrudge $hels their success, they have gone about their business and have arrived, somewhat slightly questionably maybe, at their present pre-eminent position. However, it doesn't mean I'm should be happy for them and not worry about the possible consequences for the rest of the eL.
If you don't believe the situation I've outlined could arise, fair enough.
However, others believe it could and are not begrudgers for thinking so.
Every team you mention there bar one plays in a big league, it's not the CL money that has them so dominant it's the worldwide support and TV revenue they get that puts them on another planet to other sides in their leagues. Unless all the youing ones in Asia start worshipping Wes Hoolahan, that's a completley different issue.
Rosenbourg are the only team you mention there from a 'smaller' european league. They're the exception, not the rule, there's many examples of teams from 'smaller' leagues who have qualifyed for the CL and not gone on to dominate their own domestic league. There's far more of them then there is examples of Rosenbourg like situations.
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
I KNOW they are from bigger leagues, I said the one common thing about all these clubs is MONEY.
The only way for an eL team to get big money in this country is through the CL. Thus, if $hels get a few years of good runs in the CL, they will get more and more money, far more than any club in the league can generate.
Are you deliberately ignoring my point on this?
Hw many of the teams from other countries had a plan like $hels?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Did all those clubs speculate in such a way that their plan was to ensure they won their domestic league every year, so they could get into the CL and get money?
$hels stated intention is to get into the CL EVERY year, indeed their entire future plans are built on this. This means they must win the league EVERY year to get the CL spot. To ensure that happens, they are buying the best players they can and are probably offering the best wages. To fund this, they MUST get in to the CL to get the money. To get into the CL, they must win the league every year, buy the best players to ensure this happens, and then earn the money from the CL run to continue the dominance at home. Their plan, to be successful, MUST ensure they win the league EVERY year.
Now can you tell me that this is not what $hels want to happen?
I really think my point is quite straight forward.
I don't really give a sh*t about what happens in Croatia, Hungary, or anywhere else.
No, but in other leagues teams have made the CL, got the money that brings in and not dominated their league. People forget that two Norwegian sides made the CL one season. One went on to dominate, the other is currently struggling with relegation. There's more to the Rosenbough situation than making the champions league. I know it brings in additional money, but that alone is not enough, lets face it, we've had enough money to outbid other eL sides for a long while now anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsh
Of course that's what Shels want to happen do you not think it's what every other team wanted to happen? Do you think their plan was to maybe win the league here and there and the odd CL appearence would be nice? Just because it's our plan doesn't mean it'll happen. In all fairness, I think Cork are too well run to let it happen, amoungst others. Don't forget, the UEFA cup group stages could earn alot of money for Cork too, what if we go out in the first or second round this time and Cork make the UEFA groups?Quote:
Hw many of the teams from other countries had a plan like $hels?
Did all those clubs speculate in such a way that their plan was to ensure they won their domestic league every year, so they could get into the CL and get money?
$hels stated intention is to get into the CL EVERY year, indeed their entire future plans are built on this. This means they must win the league EVERY year to get the CL spot. To ensure that happens, they are buying the best players they can and are probably offering the best wages. To fund this, they MUST get in to the CL to get the money. To get into the CL, they must win the league every year, buy the best players to ensure this happens, and then earn the money from the CL run to continue the dominance at home. Their plan, to be successful, MUST ensure they win the league EVERY year.
Now can you tell me that this is not what $hels want to happen?
I really think my point is quite straight forward.
I don't really give a sh*t about what happens in Croatia, Hungary, or anywhere else.
Yes I know about two teams in Norway, but a country that size, like Ireland can only support one big club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
In Ireland, the CL money would be enough to ensure domination.
I know that a plan doesn't always work out, but if it did, the league would be fcuked. Thus, go back to my first post in this thread and my words "It is A PRIORITY to stop $hels from getting 3 in a row". It is up to all the other clubs to stop $hels, because if they win the league again next season, they can really start to pull away from every other club in the country, and the win the league every year scenario will come true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
Other, similar sized countries, have had the same thing happen though and the dominance hasn't materialised. Norway is the exception, not the rule.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsh
I don't think we will, the only way we'll pull away from the rest of the league is if the rest of the league lets us.Quote:
I know that a plan doesn't always work out, but if it did, the league would be fcuked. Thus, go back to my first post in this thread and my words "It is A PRIORITY to stop $hels from getting 3 in a row". It is up to all the other clubs to stop $hels, because if they win the league again next season, they can really start to pull away from every other club in the country, and the win the league every year scenario will come true.
There are a few - mainly in Eastern European countries, like Albania, Armenia, Lithuania, Latvia, Slovenia, Greece, Moldova, Poland... Granted, many of those countries only had clubs qualifying for, say, the Third or Second Qualifying Round, but there seems to be a point of no return for a few leagues which we must be reaching.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED
However, Norway and Latvia are unique in the number of times in a row the league has been won by the one team. Most of the other countries have a slip-up every third year or so. Even Maribor in Slovenia lost the league for the first time in eight years last season. Interesting to see that Rosenborg only won on goals scored this season though!
That said, it's not Shels' problem, so there's no point them defending it. It's the other clubs' problems. No point whingeing at Shels or worrying about it - it's up to the other clubs do try and do something about it.
Absolute crapQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
No. of championship winners in each of these countries in the last ten years.
Albania - 3 SK Tirana, Vllaznia Shkodër, Dinamo Tiranë
Lithuania - 4 FBK Kaunas, Zalgiris Kaunas, Zalgiris Vilnius, Inkaras Kaunas
Latvia 1 - Skonto
Slovenia 4 - ND Gorica, Maribor Branik, HIT Gorica, Olimpija Ljubljana
Greece 2 Panathanaikos, Olympympiakos (limited number of winners but this is a trait of Greek football that can be traced to back before the champions league and indeed the european cup).
Moldova 3 - Sheriff, Zimbru and Constructorul Chisinau
Poland 5 - Wisla Kraków, Legia Warszawa, Polonia Warszawa, LKS-Ptak Lódz and Widzew Lódz
Its funny how perception plays a part rather than factsQuote:
Originally Posted by patsh
Germany - The current champions are Werder Bremen. They have had about 4 diffrent champions in the last ten years.
Italy - They have had about 4 different winners in the last ten years. You mention Inter as a big club. Its about 16 years since they last won the Italian championship. The last time they won the European Cup I wasnt even born. Parma, Sampdoria, Napoli, Lazio, Roma etc have all been more succcessful in this time
England - Chelsea for all their wealth havent won anything yet.
Scotland - Yes but these two started dominating the league before they got into the champions league.
Norway - The only case. But as most Norwegians willl tell you they are a fading force. They have left behind them a raised domestic game, better stadiums all round Norway and a well attended, fully TV covered league.
Lol, both Goricas are the one club! And Slovenia is not Eastern Europe, it's in the Western half or politically Central. Maribor did use the money to dominate Slovenia but have run out with lack of follow up in European success and corruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
Oh for God's sake.....:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
Are you telling me thats it's only my perception thats telling me that the clubs with money dominate their leagues?
That in actual fact, clubs without money are winning their national leagues?
:rolleyes:
I really wish you had read my posts, Eoin, and not replied on the basis of what you percieved I was saying.
ONE LAST TIME:
The clubs with most money dominate their leagues.
The only real way that clubs in this country can get access to a major source of money is through the CL.
To get to the CL, you must win our league, and by so doing you get access to that money. It becomes a vicious circle, you win the eL, get into the Cl, get the money, buy the players to keep winning the eL, get into the CL, get the money to keep winning the eL, get into the CL.........
I really don't think this is such a hard concept to fathom.
It's not happened just yet, but if $hels get a good draw, get as far as they did this season and get a big name, they will be earning the type of money that NO OTHER CLUB in the eL can hope to match.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Where did I say Slovenia is from Eastern Europe?
You keep saying this.Quote:
Originally Posted by patsh
There are in fact plenty of examples of clubs around europe without money winning leagues in their own country.
Germany -
Werder Bremen for example last season. Kaiserlautern another recent winner. None of these are rich german clubs.
You supplied a list of clubs that dominate the league in their own country because they keep getting into the CL.
Some of the clubs you pointed out for eg Inter Milan havent won their league in years. Its been the 80's since they last won Serie A. Its easier for clubs with money to do well obviously but good work, planning and determination dont go amiss either.
So because TWO clubs in ONE country, that are not as rich as some of the clubs, thats means I'm wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
NO I did NOT. Read my post again. I listed clubs that dominate their leagues because they have MONEY.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
It's not for the want of trying. Inter would be a major contender every season, based entirely on the budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
Tbh now, Eoin, you are nit picking here. You simply keep repeating that it won't happen and throw out a few selective statistics to try to back this up. You know as well as I do that you can use statistics any way you want to justify any point of view.
I'm specifically talking about $hels and the eL. They have just won the eL title for the second time in a row and have bought 3 of the best players in the country, thus making them even more formidable for next season.
As I already said, it hasn't happened yet, but there is a real, live possibility that they can go on to dominate.
Your argument does not even allow that this possibility could happen, which is head in the sand stuff as far as I can see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
You can look at it that way if you want. But it makes far more sense to highlight which clubs have won titles regularly and which are one-offs. Just because a different team won the title ten years ago doesn’t make a league competitive. The following makes much more sense –
Albania – SK Tirana have won seven of the last ten titles – including the last two – and are currently five points clear after 12 games
Lithuania – FBK and Zalgiris Kaunas are the same team. They have just sealed their sixth title in a row.
Latvia – Skonto have won all 14 league titles.
Slovenia – The two Goricas, as Poor Student pointed out, are the same team. Last year was the first time in eight years Maribor didn’t win.
Greece – Panathanaikos and Olympiakos have won every title for 11 years. AEK have won only eight less titles than Panathanaikos, but none since 1994 – their longest ever spell without winning a title since the national league came in.
Moldova – Sherriff Tiraspol have won each of the last four titles and are seven points clear with a game in hand after playing 13 games
Poland – Wisla Krakow have won the last two titles – and four of the last six – and are currently eight points clear after 13 games. Before 2000, they had won on title in 50 years. From 1990/91 to 1999/00, seven different teams won the title. From 2000/01 to 2003/04 (and it looks like you can include 2004/05 as well now), two teams have won, one of those four of the five. That’s called a trend and is far more meaningful than a list of title winners as you posted.
Maybe it will happen in Ireland, maybe it won't. But there are far more than just the one example around (bear in mind I'm not talking about the extreme condition of Rosenborg, but of the next step down).
Stu did. Wasn't directed at you Eoin.Quote:
Originally Posted by eoinh
It is part of the old Yugoslavia - seems to be out the east of Europe to me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
It was, but seeming as it broke off it can rightly be seen as what it is, Central European. The Western half of Europe begins in Dalmatia in Croatia. Slovenia is not Eastern or Balkan. Don't mean to be pedantic but I have big ties to the country so I know. It's kind of like calling us the British Isles only worse because it's totally wrong. Politically and culturally they are Central, it spent most of its history as part of Austria. It was abd renaims the richest most advanced part of the former Yugoslavia. Not much different to here in a lot of standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Shels$ could have played deportivo 10 times this season & wouldn't beat them. If shel$ are budgetting on a CL group stage or even 3rd qualifying round next season they are taking a huge gamble as ainlt gonna be much easier opposition than Hadjuk or Deportivo.
Possibly only Crowe would get in shel$ first team next season so they have really only improved their bench.
Can't wait til shel$ go broke.
Was in Slovenia in the summer, and from talking to the locals Slovenia was never that closed an economy. Certainly I wouldn't describe it as East European....Quote:
Originally Posted by Poor Student
Off topic - I'd recommend it to anyone, particularly the north - Bled, Kranskji Gora (Spelling?), Bohinj etc. Was less impressed with the South - better weather, but the people weren't as friendly and it was full of loud Italians
Hmmm...better start digging myself out of this hole! ;)
I know Slovenia is more advanced politically (very clumsy political English, but anyways...) and that it is different to the other countries there. I meant Eastern purely on a geographical basis, taking the old West Germany/Austria/Italy as the dividing line between East and Central.
Lay this one to bed now? ;)
Not when Italy is still occupying part of Slovenia (not that they seem that arsed tbh).Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Stu take a look at a map the whole country is West of Vienna;) No worries Stu, I know what you're saying but things have changed and the country would really like for people to stop thinking that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
'Not when Italy is still occupying part of Slovenia'
If you're referring to Trieste that's long gone thanks to it being offered to Italy to change sides in the war as a sweetner. The Slovenian population in NE Italy is in decline. I think they're more worried about the Croats trying to muscle them inwards in border disputes.
On the real topic at hand, what makes Shels think they won't fall the way of Bohs? The triple signing is almost like a symbolic taking of their place. Shels have no margain for error, I'm not sure what contigency plans they have no to end up like Bohs other than buy the best and keep winning. Cork are far more equipped to deal with a dry year or two and are being more modest in expenditure. It'll be intriguing to see how Shels look in 5 years.
You're living in dreamland if you think we're stupid enough to bank on getting into the group stages or even the third round again ffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
If you ask me I'd like to think they're not banking too heavily on reaching the second stage either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slash/ED