Magners League of Football?

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Clearly you have to learn how the rules of sport work also!

It's happened in many sports, as the world has got 'smaller' also with far more movement of peoples from their, er, ethnic homelands.
Cricket and both rugby codes have far more tenuous eligibility rules that make soccer/FIFA look paragons of virtue by comparison.

There are Irish Diaspora, as with many many other countries ( eg. Armenia, Brazil, China, India, Italy), spread all across the world. Many of them are not eligible as their heritage is too many generations back, but there are also millions who are.
They all have Irish blood:Get over it!

More contentiously, soccer is unlikely to ever have a great domestic presence, based partly on the proximity of the leagues in England & Scotland not to mention the saturation media coverage, but also due to the dominance of GAA to pervade many, if not all, aspects of Irish domestic culture!

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The proximity of Germany does not seem to stop Switzerland having a decent national league and if Scotland can sustain 2 large clubs then we ought to be able to as well.
Cricket's rules are stricter in some senses, for instance Pietersen despite having English parentage still had to fulfil a four year residency requirement before being eligible for England - cant see Clark being too enthusiastic about that.
Its nothing to do with Irish blood anyway - we all bleed the same not green because we're irish - its the environment of your upbringing that determines what you become. If Clark had lived all his life in India do you think his Irish blood would have made him a top level footballer? If he'd grown up in Ireland he might have been anything - a GAA player, a drug addict, a priest? Who knows but its irrelevant anyway he grew up in England and became a footballer and an England captain at that and we cant take credit for it because of his blood, it just doesnt make sense. If you are one of these proud diaspora anyway youd presumably grow up knowing or feeling that you were Irish and you presumably wouldnt want to represent England. Any diasporites on this forum grow up wanting to play for England or wheerever they have diaspored to?

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Originally Posted by Adrock

The proximity of Germany does not seem to stop Switzerland having a decent national league and if Scotland can sustain 2 large clubs then we ought to be able to as well.
Cricket's rules are stricter in some senses, for instance Pietersen despite having English parentage still had to fulfil a four year residency requirement before being eligible for England - cant see Clark being too enthusiastic about that.
Its nothing to do with Irish blood anyway - we all bleed the same not green because we're irish - its the environment of your upbringing that determines what you become. If Clark had lived all his life in India do you think his Irish blood would have made him a top level footballer? If he'd grown up in Ireland he might have been anything - a GAA player, a drug addict, a priest? Who knows but its irrelevant anyway he grew up in England and became a footballer and an England captain at that and we cant take credit for it because of his blood, it just doesnt make sense. If you are one of these proud diaspora anyway youd presumably grow up knowing or feeling that you were Irish and you presumably wouldnt want to represent England. Any diasporites on this forum grow up wanting to play for England or wheerever they have diaspored to?

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You're looking at it from the perspective that being Irish and being English are two mutually exclusive things. I don't think they are.

Other than that I've never spoken to Ciaran Clark personally so I don't think I'm in a position to judge how Irish he considers himself to be. I would find it strange, though if a highly rated 20 year old declared for Ireland and didn't consider himself Irish at all.

Adrock, even though I am beginning to believe you are a wind up merchant, the reason our own league is not strong is because of the number of football codes we support. Rugby Union and Gaelic are strong in support and participation and the near location of the UK means their leagues are and will continue to be stronger. Your comparison of Switzerland to Germany therefore is very different as outside of soccer and hiding money, there is not much more happening team wise in Switzerland.

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Originally Posted by gastric

Adrock, even though I am beginning to believe you are a wind up merchant, the reason our own league is not strong is because of the number of football codes we support. Rugby Union and Gaelic are strong in support and participation and the near location of the UK means their leagues are and will continue to be stronger. Your comparison of Switzerland to Germany therefore is very different as outside of soccer and hiding money, there is not much more happening team wise in Switzerland.

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If anything football is even less popular in Switzerland than Ireland. The most popular sport in Switzerland is ice hockey. Skiing is also more popular than football though I realise it's not technically a team sport.

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Originally Posted by youngirish

If anything football is even less popular in Switzerland than Ireland. The most popular sport in Switzerland is ice hockey. Skiing is also more popular than football though I realise it's not technically a team sport.

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Apart from the 4x10km relay and team sprint obviously ;)
Is the Swizz league really that good? I doubt it.

They usually have at least one team in the group stages of Europe. They had one in each competition last season and I believe two in the Europa this year. Technically, they're very good, although they are supplemented by foreign players more than our league.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Apart from the 4x10km relay and team sprint obviously ;)
Is the Swizz league really that good? I doubt it.

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Fc Basel vs Bohemians? That would be a close one.............
There is plenty enough enthusiasm for following football on this island, regardeless of Rugby, Gaelic etc , it just happens to all be channelled in to watching the English Premiership and Celtic because there has never been a viable local alternative. There is no reason a city of Dublin's size couldnt accomodate a couple of top rate football clubs. You dont even have to create it completely from scratch. The Scottish Premier league is desperate for reform so it would make sense all round to create a wider celtic league - you could have 2 or 3 clubs from Dublin, one from Cork, Belfast, Derry and perhaps others. It just takes a bit of vision and actually wanting to change the status quo. We could even attract some players from abroad and if any stuck around a few years and qualified for us through residency I certainly wouldnt oppose a call-up to our national squad. At least they'd have lived here a while to actually know firsthand what being Irish really is.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Fc Basel vs Bohemians? That would be a close one.............
There is plenty enough enthusiasm for following football on this island, regardeless of Rugby, Gaelic etc , it just happens to all be channelled in to watching the English Premiership and Celtic because there has never been a viable local alternative. There is no reason a city of Dublin's size couldnt accomodate a couple of top rate football clubs. You dont even have to create it completely from scratch. The Scottish Premier league is desperate for reform so it would make sense all round to create a wider celtic league - you could have 2 or 3 clubs from Dublin, one from Cork, Belfast, Derry and perhaps others. It just takes a bit of vision and actually wanting to change the status quo. We could even attract some players from abroad and if any stuck around a few years and qualified for us through residency I certainly wouldnt oppose a call-up to our national squad. At least they'd have lived here a while to actually know firsthand what being Irish really is.

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Wait. You oppose calling up 2nd generation Irish players, but are in favour of demolishing our national league and having a few mercenaries in our national side if they hang around Temple Bar for a few years wearing leprechaun hats?

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6840/digupstupid.jpg

'No, dig up stupid!'

There's a contradiction there alright, but at no point did he mention "demolishing" anything.

I think there's an intelligent discussion to be had - from both sides, for and against - on restructuring or going cross-border, but such a discussion never gets off the ground here because of emotive language like the above.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Wait. You oppose calling up 2nd generation Irish players, but are in favour of demolishing our national league and having a few mercenaries in our national side if they hang around Temple Bar for a few years wearing leprechaun hats?

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6840/digupstupid.jpg

'No, dig up stupid!'

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I'm not about destoying anything much (and sadly the LOI, bless it, is nothing much even though I do enjoy the occasional fixture) but creating and expanding - wouldnt you rather have a souped up Derry competing at a higher level of football on a weekly basis ?
As for the other point I am in no way contradicting any statement I have made on the eligibility issue . There is a world of difference between accepting people who have migrated in to the country and stayed several years as Irish as opposed to those whose ancestors had emigrated out from here at some point in history and have never been able to call Ireland home.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

There's a contradiction there alright, but at no point did he mention "demolishing" anything.

I think there's an intelligent discussion to be had - from both sides, for and against - on restructuring or going cross-border, but such a discussion never gets off the ground here because of emotive language like the above.

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I actually think the intelligent discussion has been had on here quite a few times - regardless, it's hard to take seriously in the current instance since it's surrounded by comments which simultanously rubbish Ciaran Clark's commitment to Ireland while saying it's OK to throw out a couple of Carlo Cudicini-esque residency caps.

Fair point.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

I'm not about destoying anything much (and sadly the LOI, bless it, is nothing much even though I do enjoy the occasional fixture) but creating and expanding - wouldnt you rather have a souped up Derry competing at a higher level of football on a weekly basis ?

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I'd love to see Derry competing at a higher level - I just happen to think it can be acheived domestically without resorting to convuluted 'souped up' Celtic franchises to do it. Investment, promotion, publicity, facilities and a sea change from those who think there's 'nothing much to it' would probably first on the list. After that maybe we can reach for the 'nuclear' button if needs be - if it came to that though, it'd be a real shame.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

As for the other point I am in no way contradicting any statement I have made on the eligibility issue . There is a world of difference between accepting people who have migrated in to the country and stayed several years as Irish as opposed to those whose ancestors had emigrated out from here at some point in history and have never been able to call Ireland home.

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Your adverse reaction to Ciaran Clark, as throughly documented in this thread, is completely contradictory to the idea of capping foreign born nationals who have come to Ireland to play football in any league (LOI or Celtic franchise as you suggest). You seem to think living in the country for a few years is worth more than genuine Irish lineage. I think that's just baffling.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

I'd love to see Derry competing at a higher level - I just happen to think it can be acheived domestically without resorting to convuluted 'souped up' Celtic franchises to do it. Investment, promotion, publicity, facilities and a sea change from those who think there's 'nothing much to it' would probably first on the list. After that maybe we can reach for the 'nuclear' button if needs be - if it came to that though, it'd be a real shame.



Your adverse reaction to Ciaran Clark, as throughly documented in this thread, is completely contradictory to the idea of capping foreign born nationals who have come to Ireland to play football in any league (LOI or Celtic franchise as you suggest). You seem to think living in the country for a few years is worth more than genuine Irish lineage. I think that's just baffling.

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Its going to take a drastic relaunch to get the LOI up to a serious standard not any piecemail minor attempts at change. The most feasible practical way to do this at the current time is for a few Irish teams to become involved in the Scottish Premier league given they are crying out for change at the moment. These can even be newly created teams if necessary and the LOI can continue its mediocre existence as it is with no loss of standard much as the Irish national championships continue in rugby and the League of Wales continues without the clubs who have any degree of ambition having an interst in membership. Scottish clubs I'm sure couldnt care less as some would be happier playing in England anyway.
On the other point I am baffled how you think someone who has spent several years living in Irish society should be less Irish than someone who for instance happens to have a single Irish grandparent - maybe I'm missing something in this diaspora issue but how does the birthplace of one of your gran's have any relevance to your life? Or seeing as this is the Ciaran Clark thread having grown knowing you could play for Ireland but having pursued a career with the country you were actually born and lived all your life as part of until they'd stopped picking you and you had given up hope of getting any further with them.
I'm not saying foreign born nationals who had come to pursue a career here make ideal Irish internationals but they are more ideal than foreign born nationals who havent ever come to live here at all but still comprise half our squad. There for a failure of understanding.........

Why would the Scottish clubs vote to let a load of tin-pot Irish sides into their league? They have enough problems of their own without adding further travel costs to sides with even smaller gates than theirs.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

maybe I'm missing something in this diaspora issue .....

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Yes you are missing something.

Because of the potentially huge (circa 100%) increase in TV revenue from doubling the size of their prospective audience. Not to mention a better and more competitive league with more meaningful fixtures and bigger attendances etc etc. I dont think anyone who advocates this model envisages the simple addition of a few LOI / IL teams to the SPL. It would need to be a radical rethink, but it could create the basis for decent domestic soccer and more of our players staying in Ireland.

Yep, the last time they got increased TV revenue from Ireland it worked out really well.

As far as I know, you're the only one who advocates the model, and it would require such a total restructure that you can safely rule out it every happening. You're talking about basically creating 3/4 Sporting Fingals. 1 is bad enough.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Why would the Scottish clubs vote to let a load of tin-pot Irish sides into their league? They have enough problems of their own without adding further travel costs to sides with even smaller gates than theirs.

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I've spoken to a supporters of a lot of SPL clubs and they liked the sound of a relaunched Celtic league (from Edinburgh as well as Glasgow), you cant underestimate their dissaffection witht the current situation over there. Obviously just having the present LOI squads in the scottish structure isnt a lot of use to anyone. To work it would need a serious overhaul and relaunch on a kind of Superleague basis, like Super14 rugby or Magners or Major league in the U.S you could create new sides or revamp old ones, it would need a lot of investment and commercial commitment but it could work and would certainly be an improvement on the current state of affairs which encourage only apathy. Anyway its about time something was tried at least, there's enough people with a passion for football in Dublin for instance to sustain somewhat more illustrious clubs than the like of Bohemians and Shamrock Rovers are at present. History has dictated that we dont have a respectable national league but we dont have to slaves to history forever and adding the scottish element to merely restricting ourselves to clubs in Ireland would create a wider range of club sides so it needn't be as topheavy as the SPL presently is. It would take time and commitment though and nobody's going to bother as its accepted that all Irish players with any real potential should go and play in Britain and any Irish fans wanting to to watch quality football should go there to watch it, and so we're left with a standard of football roughly equivalent to that of the Maltese league and so it shall ever be apparently. :(

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Originally Posted by Greenbod

Yes you are missing something.

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I think I must be because my grandma's Scottish and whenever I go there I keep thinking I'm in a foreign country :confused:

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Its going to take a drastic relaunch to get the LOI up to a serious standard not any piecemail minor attempts at change. The most feasible practical way to do this at the current time is for a few Irish teams to become involved in the Scottish Premier league given they are crying out for change at the moment. These can even be newly created teams if necessary and the LOI can continue its mediocre existence as it is with no loss of standard much as the Irish national championships continue in rugby and the League of Wales continues without the clubs who have any degree of ambition having an interst in membership. Scottish clubs I'm sure couldnt care less as some would be happier playing in England anyway.

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'The most feasible practical way?' Really? A method which completely restructures two leagues, creates a bunch of soulless franchises and subjugatestwo existing national leagues is hardly feasible or practical. Not feasible primarily because it won't fly with national associations who would resist any potential loss of autonomy and European places or with UEFA never mind what the fans think. And not practical because it's setup and operation would take years, and millions/billions of pounds, without any guarantee of return.

If individuals were going to invest that amount of local football shouldn't they try, you know, actually investing it into actual local football? A far more feasible and practical way of enhancing the LOI would be investing in high class facilities, launching a meaningful publicity campaign and giving clubs more opportunity (or forcing them) to grow better links with their community. These are just a few options of a strategy which could encompass many.

But hey forget that - let's launch a hail mary idea like the All-Celt Francise Super Cider League, plunge billions into clubs like Belfast Athletic, and watch as most people continue to ignore local football and Dublin United lose to TNS in the Champions League premlinary round.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

On the other point I am baffled how you think someone who has spent several years living in Irish society should be less Irish than someone who for instance happens to have a single Irish grandparent - maybe I'm missing something in this diaspora issue but how does the birthplace of one of your gran's have any relevance to your life? Or seeing as this is the Ciaran Clark thread having grown knowing you could play for Ireland but having pursued a career with the country you were actually born and lived all your life as part of until they'd stopped picking you and you had given up hope of getting any further with them.
I'm not saying foreign born nationals who had come to pursue a career here make ideal Irish internationals but they are more ideal than foreign born nationals who havent ever come to live here at all but still comprise half our squad. There for a failure of understanding.........

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You're being disengenuous. I'm not getting into a debate about what constitutes nationality - I'm simply highlighting the contradiction between:

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Infer what you will from these comments but it doesnt exactly sound like Clark had a sudden epiphany about how he was really irish all this time...People will interpret his motives according to what it suits them to believe but looking at it rationally and objectively it doesnt look quite that way. To be fair Clark isnt really pretending his is really an Irishman same as Andy Townsend readily admitted he is not actually Irish. its an easier route in to international football and you cant blame him for taking it but there is no dignity or honor on the part of our footballing association is hunting after these kind players.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Its time to reclaim the Irish football team for the Irish .Sorry if this offends those who have become accustomed to pretending that Englishmen with an Irish ancestor who take advantage of this fallback international footballing representative option are actually bonafide Irishmen whereas if they'd taken any other career path would probably never have given a second thought to the notion of their supposed Irishness...If it gives you all comfort to go on pretending then be my guest but your justifications are delusional!

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And this:

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Originally Posted by Adrock

We could even attract some players from abroad and if any stuck around a few years and qualified for us through residency I certainly wouldnt oppose a call-up to our national squad. At least they'd have lived here a while to actually know firsthand what being Irish really is.

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Honestly. How can you oppose the call up of Clark yet say happily call-up someone who qualifies through residency?

Perhaps this is your method of 'reclaiming the Irish side for the Irish.' Let's get Ryan Guy (St.Pats) in. And all the other foreign players in the LOI. Sure they're plenty Irish - been here a couple of years, had a tour of St.James Gate and enjoy the odd bowl of stew. Never mind they've got no actual lineage to speak of.

Seriously I've lived in England for two years - by your reckoning I'm more English than my half-English nephew who's born in Ireland. Eh?

This is all without mentioning the absolute bizarre logic that some players who are blown in by your All-Celt Franchise Super Cider league would somehow be less mercenary as internationals than the likes of Clark or Townsend...

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

'The most feasible practical way?' Really? A method which completely restructures two leagues, creates a bunch of soulless franchises and subjugatestwo existing national leagues is hardly feasible or practical. Not feasible primarily because it won't fly with national associations who would resist any potential loss of autonomy and European places or with UEFA never mind what the fans think. And not practical because it's setup and operation would take years, and millions/billions of pounds, without any guarantee of return.

If individuals were going to invest that amount of local football shouldn't they try, you know, actually investing it into actual local football? A far more feasible and practical way of enhancing the LOI would be investing in high class facilities, launching a meaningful publicity campaign and giving clubs more opportunity (or forcing them) to grow better links with their community. These are just a few options of a strategy which could encompass many.

But hey forget that - let's launch a hail mary idea like the All-Celt Francise Super Cider League, plunge billions into clubs like Belfast Athletic, and watch as most people continue to ignore local football and Dublin United lose to TNS in the Champions League premlinary round.

Honestly. How can you oppose the call up of Clark yet say happily call-up someone who qualifies through residency?

Perhaps this is your method of 'reclaiming the Irish side for the Irish.' Let's get Ryan Guy (St.Pats) in. And all the other foreign players in the LOI. Sure they're plenty Irish - been here a couple of years, had a tour of St.James Gate and enjoy the odd bowl of stew. Never mind they've got no actual lineage to speak of.


This is all without mentioning the absolute bizarre logic that some players who are blown in by your All-Celt Franchise Super Cider league would somehow be less mercenary as internationals than the likes of Clark or Townsend...

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That isnt a contradiction, seems reasonable you can acquire an attachment to a country by having lived there a few years and having been immersed in its society on a daily basis regardless why you came there in the first place, unless it was a case of buying players in to qualify them for the national team (wouldnt put it past the FAI mind). Clark hasn't become Irish over time to explain any shifting allrgiances, having never sampled life here, his qualification was always there its just his Irishness never seems to have occured to him previously whilst he was being England captain. The resident foreign player thing isnt exactly my ideal scenario I just threw it as an emphasis on how one's environment is more relevant to your consciousness than your ancestors blood, anyway thats a question of what consitutes one's national identity which I might have a stab at commenting on in more depth should I get seriously bored at work tomorrow and fancy teasing the diaspora a little.
Its irrelevant anyway given our league in its current state is never going to attract anyone of international quality.
You can reform the LOI through schemes such as you mentioned all you like but its a case of polishing a turd (no disrespect to any who attend domestic matches as I do myself from time to time) You need to create a whole new setup to grab peoples attention and only a serious relaunch is going to really change anything. People arent going to be attracted to watch the league in sufficient numbers unless the standard is already several notches higher than it currently is and that necessitates a major overhaul.
I dont see the obstacles you mentioned as being significant. Rangers and Celtic were more than happy to go and play in the English premiership as were many of their fans and certainly those of other teams in Scotland; Cardiff, Swansea and others operate in the English system and Derry in our own competition despite being within other national associations jurisdictions but UEFA couldnt care less. Population levels and the passion for football I believe exists in this country creates the latent potential for some decent football club sides, its just a question of harnessing that potential, and sharing resources with ambitious scottish clubs could be mutually beneficial to those clubs and fans looking for a more competitive higher standard competition. It would be a huge undertaking but it has to be worth trying and as an Irish football fan you've got to want and deserve surely to have a serious domestic league. If we had teams with household name Irish internationals playing weekly on your doorstep why would people ignore it? Do we really all actually want to watch hurling instead?
We have plenty to gain from it and next to nothing to lose. If it means my own local club Finn Harps are no longer in the preeminent domestic competition within these shores I think I could live with that. Are you offended by Ulster playing in the Magners league at the expense of the preexisting national club championship? And the domestic championship we had wasn't even that bad in international terms.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

I've spoken to a supporters of a lot of SPL clubs and they liked the sound of a relaunched Celtic league (from Edinburgh as well as Glasgow), you cant underestimate their dissaffection witht the current situation over there.

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I doubt Hibs or Motherwell fans would be so enthusiastic if they knew it reduced their chances of European football. I doubt Rovers or Bohs would be too happy with the idea either.

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Obviously just having the present LOI squads in the scottish structure isnt a lot of use to anyone. To work it would need a serious overhaul and relaunch on a kind of Superleague basis, like Super14 rugby or Magners or Major league in the U.S you could create new sides or revamp old ones, it would need a lot of investment and commercial commitment but it could work and would certainly be an improvement on the current state of affairs which encourage only apathy.

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It's not comparable. The Celtic League and Super 14 were set up when rugby as a whole was making the transition from amateurism to professionalism. It was a relatively even playing field and everybody was starting from a similar base, so there was always a decent chance of success. A pan-Celtic soccer league would be starting from scratch in opposition to the biggest sporting juggernaut on the planet. It would quite honestly be comparable to ****ing in the wind. The only way it could possibly work is if our clubs and Welsh clubs grew to the point where a consolidated league would work and not just be dominated by the same two Glasgow teams, one of whom Irish people would, thinking realistically, probably still support over their local side.

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Anyway its about time something was tried at least, there's enough people with a passion for football in Dublin for instance to sustain somewhat more illustrious clubs than the like of Bohemians and Shamrock Rovers are at present. History has dictated that we dont have a respectable national league but we dont have to slaves to history forever and adding the scottish element to merely restricting ourselves to clubs in Ireland would create a wider range of club sides so it needn't be as topheavy as the SPL presently is. It would take time and commitment though and nobody's going to bother as its accepted that all Irish players with any real potential should go and play in Britain and any Irish fans wanting to to watch quality football should go there to watch it, and so we're left with a standard of football roughly equivalent to that of the Maltese league and so it shall ever be apparently. :(

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But you realise that Bohs and Rovers fans aren't going to abandon their teams to support a Dublin United side? As supporter-owned clubs, they're never going to vote for a merger, and their existing fanbase will continue to support them in the Leinster Senior League or wherever they end up. So you're relying on a mass influx of English/Scottish football fans, and we all know how successful Sporting Fingal have been.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

That isnt a contradiction, seems reasonable you can acquire an attachment to a country by having lived there a few years and having been immersed in its society on a daily basis regardless why you came there in the first place, unless it was a case of buying players in to qualify them for the national team (wouldnt put it past the FAI mind).

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Can you not require just as great (and likely much greater attachment) Irishness via your parents beliefs? Their stories? Holiday visits to relatives? In taking pride in your heritage? After all it is a real heritage - instead of some adopted one garnered through a couple of daytrips in Dublin.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Clark hasn't become Irish over time to explain any shifting allrgiances, having never sampled life here,

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Any proof? For all you know Clark spent every Summer swimming in Bundoran.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

his qualification was always there its just his Irishness never seems to have occured to him previously whilst he was being England captain.

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Again proof? All you've got is a couple of highly ambiguous quotes from the statement he made while declaring his delight at declaring for IRELAND.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

The resident foreign player thing isnt exactly my ideal scenario I just threw it as an emphasis on how one's environment is more relevant to your consciousness than your ancestors blood, anyway thats a question of what consitutes one's national identity which I might have a stab at commenting on in more depth should I get seriously bored at work tomorrow and fancy teasing the diaspora a little.

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Can we conclude from this you're just WUMming the diaspora? I mean it seems obvious at this point, just want to make sure. Also look forward to reading it after I get off a plane back in my 'homeland' - England that is.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Its irrelevant anyway given our league in its current state is never going to attract anyone of international quality.
You can reform the LOI through schemes such as you mentioned all you like but its a case of polishing a turd (no disrespect to any who attend domestic matches as I do myself from time to time) You need to create a whole new setup to grab peoples attention and only a serious relaunch is going to really change anything. People arent going to be attracted to watch the league in sufficient numbers unless the standard is already several notches higher than it currently is and that necessitates a major overhaul.

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Grabbing people's attention with some publicity side show usually has the side effect of not maintaining anyone's attention - particularly fans bred on the EPL's TV dinner approach to football. Meanwhile, while the standard isn't nearly as bad as you think - the LOI has recently provided EPL ready players in the form of Kevin Doyle, Seamus Coleman and Keith Fahey - there's no guarantee of an increase of quality from some kind of gimmicky Franchise league.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

I dont see the obstacles you mentioned as being significant.

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You don't see the will of two national associations, the governing body for football in Europe and millions of football fans as significant? Far out dude...

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Rangers and Celtic were more than happy to go and play in the English premiership as were many of their fans and certainly those of other teams in Scotland;

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I couldn't be bothered to look it up at this time but I'm fairly sure you're playing fast and loose with the phrases 'many of their fans' and 'other teams in Scotland.'

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Cardiff, Swansea and others operate in the English system and Derry in our own competition despite being within other national associations jurisdictions but UEFA couldnt care less.

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These anomalies exist for ananachronistic or particular reasons. Not because the clubs decided to up-sticks and give another competition a go.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Population levels and the passion for football I believe exists in this country creates the latent potential for some decent football club sides, its just a question of harnessing that potential, and sharing resources with ambitious scottish clubs could be mutually beneficial to those clubs and fans looking for a more competitive higher standard competition.

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As CDarwin pointed out, Scottish clubs probably wouldn't want to share our problems. Regardless if such a passion and population level exists there is absolutely no reason why such a league can't be created within the current confines of the national association.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

It would be a huge undertaking but it has to be worth trying and as an Irish football fan you've got to want and deserve surely to have a serious domestic league.

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Of course I want a serious domestic league. Some gimmicky All-Celt Franchise league is neither serious or domestic.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

We have plenty to gain from it and next to nothing to lose. If it means my own local club Finn Harps are no longer in the preeminent domestic competition within these shores I think I could live with that.

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We have tonnes to lose - autonomy as a national association, European places, the proud histories of a lot of clubs, the attendance of fans who currently actually quite like the LOI, whatever credibility we have left as a league....

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Are you offended by Ulster playing in the Magners league at the expense of the preexisting national club championship? And the domestic championship we had wasn't even that bad in international terms.

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CDarwin succintly summed up why this isn't a viable comparison.

Look we agree the LOI needs a rethink, an overhaul and a general rejig to make it the kind of league we'd all like it to be. That DOES NOT MEAN we need flippant, gimmick laden ideas which completely ignore the realities of domestic football, in Ireland and abroad, and rely a naive 'where there's a will, there's a way!' mentality.

This has gone waaay off topic. I would suggest you take your ideas over to the LOI forum for a proper discussion.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Clark hasn't become Irish over time to explain any shifting allrgiances, having never sampled life here, his qualification was always there its just his Irishness never seems to have occured to him previously whilst he was being England captain.

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Assuming Clark has never sampled what Irish life is like is quite a presumptious leap to make given the fact he was brought up by two Irish parents who more than likely brought him with them on at least one of their trips back home. Besides, being England captain in no way negates his cultural and constitutional sense of Irishness. It has been pointed out to you a few times now that the two are in no way incompatible with one another and are potentially inclusive.

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The resident foreign player thing isnt exactly my ideal scenario I just threw it as an emphasis on how one's environment is more relevant to your consciousness than your ancestors blood,

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What a load of bunkum. What's to be said for poor Stephen Ireland?

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anyway thats a question of what consitutes one's national identity which I might have a stab at commenting on in more depth should I get seriously bored at work tomorrow and fancy teasing the diaspora a little.

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More patronising commentary still to come? You'll have me up all night with the excitement...

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I dont see the obstacles you mentioned as being significant. Rangers and Celtic were more than happy to go and play in the English premiership as were many of their fans and certainly those of other teams in Scotland; Cardiff, Swansea and others operate in the English system and Derry in our own competition despite being within other national associations jurisdictions but UEFA couldnt care less.

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Derry were granted special dispensation due to the exceptional political sitution in the north at the time that had contributed to Derry being effectively booted out of the Irish League during the '70s before having their annual application for re-entry rejected year in and year out. As the League of Ireland were willing to grant them membership in 1985 and the Irish League did not object, UEFA were willing to allow it given the fairly unique circumstances. UEFA just don't let football teams transfer from one league to another league outside their jurisdiction whenever a club feels like it. In fact, I suspect that is one of the primary hurdles preventing Celtic and Rangers from joining the Premiership. Of course, I'm open to correction on that.

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my own local club Finn Harps

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'fhtb'; it's not you, is it?

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Are you offended by Ulster playing in the Magners league at the expense of the preexisting national club championship? And the domestic championship we had wasn't even that bad in international terms.

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Of what relevance is that to a football fan who has never supported a local rugby club in their life?

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Derry were granted special dispensation due to the exceptional political sitution in the north at the time that had contributed to Derry being effectively booted out of the Irish League during the '70s before having their annual application for re-entry rejected year in and year out. As the League of Ireland were willing to grant them membership in 1985 and the Irish League did not object, UEFA were willing to allow it given the fairly unique circumstances. UEFA just don't let football teams transfer from one league to another league outside their jurisdiction whenever a club feels like it. In fact, I suspect that is one of the primary hurdles preventing Celtic and Rangers from joining the Premiership. Of course, I'm open to correction on that.

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I think it would be a potential complication but I don't think it was really an obstacle. The main obstacle was clubs that annually hover around the lower reaches of the Premier League (your Boltons and your Blackburns) who saw it as an added threat to their existence. UEFA has allowed Scottish and Welsh clubs to switch between leagues in the past, though mainly it has involved Scottish and Welsh clubs returning to their native associations from the English leagues.

I think I've changed my mind; I don't mind Clark declaring for Ireland, if only so it distances myself from Adrock here :)

The headline may cause a few palpitations, but, prompted by the comments on the Ciaran Clark thread:

Just in relation to "imaginative thinking" with regard to league restructuring or whatever, and totally regardless of the personalities offering the opinions offered on the Clark thread: my feeling myself is that, as Charlie D said, the rugby model works only because the path was totally clear for them to do so. If BO'D and co. could earn 20 times what they earn by moving to the AVIVA Premiership they'd do so in a flash. The national governing bodies can offer central contracts (like in cricket too) because the money is in the international game more than the club game. Also the clubs are no threat to the IRB like they potentally are to UEFA. None of the ingredients for a successful Magners League among celtic football countries exists in my opinion, not least the lack of commercial appeal.

In my opinion, the answer could lie in UEFA's remit by way of a revamping of the Europa League. I have collated quotes from Platini promoting the idea of a Dutch / Belgian joint league, or a Balkan league (like they have in basketball). Therefore it'd seem that the opposition to cross-border leagues, such as an Atlantic League-style breakaway might be qualified rather than outright.

If the early rounds of the Europa League were constructed on a regional basis, pitching the Irish (LOI and IL), Welsh, Scottish and English clubs together in groups until a few qualifiers are determined and then when the wheat is sorted from the chaff the group stages proper begin, or maybe the 16 or 32 "regional" qualifiers get pitched into a knockout competition. You'd have to seed and do a bit of jiggery pokery to arrive at an elegant structure / format, but let's work on the principle first and the structural nuances afterwards. Teams would obviously qualify for the Europa League "regional rounds" via the normal route: domestic league performance.

Again, this is only an instinctive view, but I think if the likes of Everton were to play a LOI team in a friendly it’d get some interest but if they were to visit in a European competition it’d attract huge interest. My format would mean the LOI clubs would have a few local derby type matches that’d attract interest (and gate receipts), rather than just one potential Juve type game and the Isreali game that preceded it.

I think this format could also be used to pitch Dutch, French, Belgian and say (West) German teams together, Scandy teams together, Balkans, (East) Germany, Poland, Czechs etc., and ex-CIS states. Think of a group with Greece, Cyprus, Turkey & Israeli teams!

UEFA could divvy up the TV money in a redistributive manner, meaning proper income for clubs like the LOI clubs. Income combined with the current UEFA financial licensing rules means some degree of profitability, and some degree of profitability would then attract investment and a virtuous circle could begin.

It’s just an abstract idea, and logistically could prove unworkable but it’s the kind of thing I could see being of benefit for smaller leagues like ours and also for UEFA if they are to be seen as seriously supportive of the pyramid structure and general development of European football.

There’s big upside for LOI sized clubs, it’d make travel for supporters affordable and the smaller travel for the larger clubs would mean they’d moan less about having to play European football!

I don't see a revamped Europa League would do much for that, bar the games against English sides.

The only way we'll have a viable option for Irish players, and the chance not to be relying on the failing UK system to produce players, is for Irish people to get off their hole, to stop making excuses and get into Irish Football Grounds. And even then, if it was to be done properly there would have to be infrastructure investment first. It's only now it's affecting the national team are questions even being asked by the majority when this was the obvious consquence of relying on the old "methods", particularly when the UK Academy's started going worldwide rather than just Britain and Ireland.

To generalise, Irish football supporters simply aren't committed enough to make it happen - they'd in the main decry the FAI for not having a national academy, as that's an easier option than paying the price of 3 pints even a few times a season into a LoI ground.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

'fhtb'; it's not you, is it?

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That's below the belt Danny. ;)

Ok without going to get in to too many complexities on this digression in summary on the league issue we have a micky mouse league at the moment, only a tiny proportion even of the football supporting public even take much interest in it. If the likes of Bohs, Shamrock etc and their fifty odd fans dont want a part of the new set -up then fine they can keep their LOI as it is, just minus the annual preliminary round European spanking to Dinamo Almaty or whoever. Its a nothing league sadly populated with nohopers not good enough for lower league English football and its teams have never achieved anything noteworthy in its entire history.
The SPL needs an urgent reform and they know it, Ireland simply needs a new league. It makes sense to combine the two as at least there are a few clubs in Scotland with the stadia and resources already intact to sustain a competetive team which makes it a more striaghtforward proposition than creating a whole league of clubs from scratch. Secondly by expanding the league concept to include scottish club and a Belfast club this should avoid creating a mirror of the current lopsided Scottish league dominated entirely to a ridiculous degree by 2 teams.
FIFA and UEFA usually seem quite pliable to proposed changes and I'm sure would be more than happy to encourage a new structure that diverted resources away form the Premiership. Why immediately assume it would be forbidden? I'm sure UEFA have noticed that Ireland does not possess the viable professional standard league that most of Western Europe seems to have, the same as Wales doesnt which is why they consider it fair for several Welsh clubs to operate in the English system.
I expected all these reactionary comments but I'm only proposing creating something that would give irish football exactly the kick up the ass it needs without losing us anything as like I say we presently dont really have anything to lose. If people would really rather continue being totally dependent on England both for providing for our players and as supporters of their teams then how we are forever in a state of dependence, what autonomy does this offer us?

"Ok without going to get in to too many complexities on this digression in summary on the league issue we have a micky mouse league at the moment, only a tiny proportion even of the football supporting public even take much interest in it. If the likes of Bohs, Shamrock etc and their fifty odd fans dont want a part of the new set -up then fine they can keep their LOI as it is, just minus the annual preliminary round European spanking to Dinamo Almaty or whoever. Its a nothing league sadly populated with nohopers not good enough for lower league English football and its teams have never achieved anything noteworthy in its entire history."

that might change if things keep going the way they are at shamrock rovers adrock

And not my place but im sure dundalk fans would disagree with that, as would some others in the last 10 years. they might not have consistently performed each year in Europe but they did take some notable scalps along the way.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I don't see a revamped Europa League would do much for that, bar the games against English sides.

The only way we'll have a viable option for Irish players, and the chance not to be relying on the failing UK system to produce players, is for Irish people to get off their hole, to stop making excuses and get into Irish Football Grounds. And even then, if it was to be done properly there would have to be infrastructure investment first. It's only now it's affecting the national team are questions even being asked by the majority when this was the obvious consquence of relying on the old "methods", particularly when the UK Academy's started going worldwide rather than just Britain and Ireland.

To generalise, Irish football supporters simply aren't committed enough to make it happen - they'd in the main decry the FAI for not having a national academy, as that's an easier option than paying the price of 3 pints even a few times a season into a LoI ground.

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And that my friend is the exact reason why things have not moved on with the League of Ireland.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

The headline may cause a few palpitations, but, prompted by the comments on the Ciaran Clark thread:

Just in relation to "imaginative thinking" with regard to league restructuring or whatever, and totally regardless of the personalities offering the opinions offered on the Clark thread: my feeling myself is that, as Charlie D said, the rugby model works only because the path was totally clear for them to do so. If BO'D and co. could earn 20 times what they earn by moving to the AVIVA Premiership they'd do so in a flash. The national governing bodies can offer central contracts (like in cricket too) because the money is in the international game more than the club game. Also the clubs are no threat to the IRB like they potentally are to UEFA. None of the ingredients for a successful Magners League among celtic football countries exists in my opinion, not least the lack of commercial appeal.

In my opinion, the answer could lie in UEFA's remit by way of a revamping of the Europa League. I have collated quotes from Platini promoting the idea of a Dutch / Belgian joint league, or a Balkan league (like they have in basketball). Therefore it'd seem that the opposition to cross-border leagues, such as an Atlantic League-style breakaway might be qualified rather than outright.

If the early rounds of the Europa League were constructed on a regional basis, pitching the Irish (LOI and IL), Welsh, Scottish and English clubs together in groups until a few qualifiers are determined and then when the wheat is sorted from the chaff the group stages proper begin, or maybe the 16 or 32 "regional" qualifiers get pitched into a knockout competition. You'd have to seed and do a bit of jiggery pokery to arrive at an elegant structure / format, but let's work on the principle first and the structural nuances afterwards. Teams would obviously qualify for the Europa League "regional rounds" via the normal route: domestic league performance.

Again, this is only an instinctive view, but I think if the likes of Everton were to play a LOI team in a friendly it’d get some interest but if they were to visit in a European competition it’d attract huge interest. My format would mean the LOI clubs would have a few local derby type matches that’d attract interest (and gate receipts), rather than just one potential Juve type game and the Isreali game that preceded it.

I think this format could also be used to pitch Dutch, French, Belgian and say (West) German teams together, Scandy teams together, Balkans, (East) Germany, Poland, Czechs etc., and ex-CIS states. Think of a group with Greece, Cyprus, Turkey & Israeli teams!

UEFA could divvy up the TV money in a redistributive manner, meaning proper income for clubs like the LOI clubs. Income combined with the current UEFA financial licensing rules means some degree of profitability, and some degree of profitability would then attract investment and a virtuous circle could begin.

It’s just an abstract idea, and logistically could prove unworkable but it’s the kind of thing I could see being of benefit for smaller leagues like ours and also for UEFA if they are to be seen as seriously supportive of the pyramid structure and general development of European football.

There’s big upside for LOI sized clubs, it’d make travel for supporters affordable and the smaller travel for the larger clubs would mean they’d moan less about having to play European football!

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And that, my friend is exactly what the League needs.

Not the idea necessarily, but the thought....

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Ok without going to get in to too many complexities on this digression in summary on the league issue we have a micky mouse league at the moment, only a tiny proportion even of the football supporting public even take much interest in it. If the likes of Bohs, Shamrock etc and their fifty odd fans dont want a part of the new set -up then fine they can keep their LOI as it is, just minus the annual preliminary round European spanking to Dinamo Almaty or whoever. Its a nothing league sadly populated with nohopers not good enough for lower league English football and its teams have never achieved anything noteworthy in its entire history.

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Those clubs might have small fanbases but that is the totality of support for domestic football in this country. You can't create a league without them.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

And that my friend is the exact reason why things have not moved on with the League of Ireland.

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The fact that people won't get off their holes and watch it? Dead right.

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Originally Posted by Adrock

Ok without going to get in to too many complexities on this digression in summary on the league issue we have a micky mouse league at the moment, only a tiny proportion even of the football supporting public even take much interest in it. If the likes of Bohs, Shamrock etc and their fifty odd fans dont want a part of the new set -up then fine they can keep their LOI as it is, just minus the annual preliminary round European spanking to Dinamo Almaty or whoever. Its a nothing league sadly populated with nohopers not good enough for lower league English football and its teams have never achieved anything noteworthy in its entire history.

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Are you actually going out of your way to appear uninformed and ignorant?

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Originally Posted by osarusan

The fact that people won't get off their holes and watch it? Dead right.

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Keep looking outward and pointing the finger, don't be proactive.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Again, this is only an instinctive view, but I think if the likes of Everton were to play a LOI team in a friendly it’d get some interest but if they were to visit in a European competition it’d attract huge interest. My format would mean the LOI clubs would have a few local derby type matches that’d attract interest (and gate receipts), rather than just one potential Juve type game and the Isreali game that preceded it.

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Not trying to be overly negative and my points are bullets to save time but;

1. Unlikely that Everton would field a full strength side and, let's be honest about it, they wouldn't need to get the win.
2. Your suggest would make it virtually impossible for the LOI side to progress. The current system offers a greater possibility for LOI sides to get into the group stages of the Europa League.
3. It doesn't encourage the development of LOI football either. We need to learn from others with similar resources to our own rather than fulfilling a supporting role to the British game.
4. Yes there is the possibility of greater gate receipts for a couple of games, but those attending games would be there to see the opposition rather than offering LOI clubs a sustainable support base to build on.
5. Also the suggestion is only of benefit to the top-tier of LOI football - nothing there for the smaller guys.


Finally I do think the LOI has made a lot of progress with very limited resources in the past 10 -15 years. The product on offer has improved but this has widely gone unnoticed. It might seem a repetition of the old and constant moan of the LOI fan, but if the wider public wants a "better" LOI, they have to attend games.