Modern languages in primary schools initiative gets the axe.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Irish Times http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...318189073.html

An awful shame this. Improve literacy by ruling out modern languages? Entirely Irish logic.

[shantykelly]

insanity. being able to speak even a bit of a foreign language is great, and if 10, 15, 20 years down the line it makes the economy more attractive to european investment, then it can only be good for the country.

as an aside - is it just me or is starting a literacy/numeracy programme a bit like throwing more money at teachers to do the job they're supposed to be doing anyway?

[Lionel Ritchie]

As far as I can tell Shanty the literacy and numeracy agenda appears to be about "re-prioritising" what teachers teach and how they teach it. That basically means they are to spend more time teaching maths, more time teaching literacy -and that means English AND Irish. That time has to come from somewhere and where it's intended it'll come from is namby-pamby not "real" subjects anyway like Science and Nature studies, Geography, History, Music, Drama and Art and possibly Physical education as well. Those subjects are to be treated as "service subjects" as well -that is -used to assist teaching literacy and numeracy.

Religious Education though (essentially RC sacrament preparation in our educational system) will not be affected one jot. As I said Irish will be unaffected too and may actually increase.

If you're an uber-gael RC (and there's plenty that are in the upper echelons of Irish education) it's arguably all good news -but to my mind that makes it an example of service provision designed to suit and benefit the provider rather than the end user.

It is certainly the case that with that mindset and those priorities -anyone making a case for teaching 7 year old Irish kids a modern language (as is about to become compulsory in England) would be laughed at by those who could make it happen.

[Eminence Grise]

insanity. being able to speak even a bit of a foreign language is great, and if 10, 15, 20 years down the line it makes the economy more attractive to european investment, then it can only be good for the country.

I have a niece who is 5. Already she speaks English, Irish (since she started in a Gaelscoil last year) and Norwegian (from her mother). Her two younger siblings are on the same road. Having started learning French too late at 12, I limped through three years of it in college, but the effort paid off: I can travel, watch French cinema, read French newspapers and it’s no great burden having another language. The earlier we are exposed to languages the easier it is to learn them. Language acquisition by natural dialogue is far better than book learning about grammar; by the age of 4 we master the basics of our mother tongue; what comes after that is linked to developmental learning (nuances, time and tenses, vocabulary etc).

There’s a tremendous economic benefit to being multi-lingual, but there is also a far more important cultural and social benefit, broadening our horizons and making us less dependent on an Anglophone world. (The debates on the LoI and Irish football threads about why our young footballers always look to Britain are proof that being monolingual has a limiting impact in more ways than we acknowledge.)

as an aside - is it just me or is starting a literacy/numeracy programme a bit like throwing more money at teachers to do the job they're supposed to be doing anyway?

Teachers are hobbled by curricula that emphasise certain aspects of child development and learning, and certain ways of teaching. My sister is an Aistear tutor and trains primary teachers how to integrate play and learning; she has had incredible results with her junior infants and it shows how, if the straitjacket is removed, teachers can do the job they're paid to do.

One concern about teachers teaching literacy is that grammar has not been assessed in the junior cert since, I think, 1990. So many of our primary and secondary teachers have never encountered clauses, gerunds, subject-object-predicate, the preterite etc etc - how can they teach literary without first being taught themselves?

LR, there’s a lot of sense in what you say. The idea that history or music become subservient to literacy is dreadful. We should be teaching children to learn for the pure joy of learning rather than churning out products tailored to current economic and industrial fads.

There’s a simple solution, though not without cost implications, to teaching religion, too: take it outside regular school hours. Half an hour at classes’ end three times a week is sufficient, and it frees up teaching time during the day. I do believe that religion is too important to be downplayed out of existence, or just left to the parent: at its most basic, ecumenical level it helps create a public morality and sense of ethics, of what is right and wrong, that seems not to be taught in every home in contemporary society.

The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?

[osarusan]

There’s a tremendous economic benefit to being multi-lingual, but there is also a far more important cultural and social benefit, broadening our horizons and making us less dependent on an Anglophone world.

Some research starting to suggest that there's a health benefit too, with bilinguals (or multilinguals) more likely to have the onset of Alzheimer's delayed.

[Lionel Ritchie]

There’s a simple solution, though not without cost implications, to teaching religion, too: take it outside regular school hours. Half an hour at classes’ end three times a week is sufficient, and it frees up teaching time during the day. I do believe that religion is too important to be downplayed out of existence, or just left to the parent: at its most basic, ecumenical level it helps create a public morality and sense of ethics, of what is right and wrong, that seems not to be taught in every home in contemporary society.

I take your point -though I don't think there's a lot of ethics, morality or indeed religion taught in the homes of plenty of people who'll spend a fortune on outfits, caterers and bouncy castles for the first holy communion etc. I'd take the solution you're advocating in a heartbeat too by the way.

The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?

I have virtually none. I can manage transactions like shopping and restaurants in French. That's about it. I can swear in Dutch like a Dutch sailor if that counts. I very much wish I'd had a crack at French when I was younger. They start teaching it to kids here at 12 and 13 when their brains are turned to muck by hormones and self conciousness.

[EAFC_rdfl]

I have a bit of french and can hold good conversation in irish no bother. I think Italian wouldnt be too hard picked up if I gave it a bit of attention, the written language is easy enough to match up to english. have a few basic words of finnish too!!

[Eminence Grise]

One concern about teachers teaching literacy is that grammar has not been assessed in the junior cert since, I think, 1990. So many of our primary and secondary teachers have never encountered clauses, gerunds, subject-object-predicate, the preterite etc etc - how can they teach literary without first being taught themselves?

Oh, the flippin' irony...


A few words of Finnish is impressive, and I have stubbed enough toes in my time to appreciate the benefits of swearing like a Dutch mariner!!

[peadar1987]

Godverdomme teringlul!

I heard somewhere that we have the shortest school year in Europe. Perhaps increasing teacher numbers to reduce workload during the year, then shortening the holidays, would be of benefit. As far as I'm concerned, education is the number one priority. The money could come from pretty much anywhere else and I wouldn't complain.

[culloty82]

As EG says, the number of hours spent on teaching Irish doesn't matter, rather than the manner in how it is taught. There's little point in fixating on grammar and written exercises unless the groundwork has been laid with oral and aural skills, complemented with online resources. Similarly, early exposure to new languages is supposed to greatly assist in developing fluency, so even if time has be pared back from each subject at primary level to allow the teaching of an EU language, it would make more sense than this retrograde step.

[Macy]

There’s a simple solution, though not without cost implications, to teaching religion, too: take it outside regular school hours. Half an hour at classes’ end three times a week is sufficient, and it frees up teaching time during the day. I do believe that religion is too important to be downplayed out of existence, or just left to the parent: at its most basic, ecumenical level it helps create a public morality and sense of ethics, of what is right and wrong, that seems not to be taught in every home in contemporary society.

Religious indoctrination should be left to the parents and be outside of school time. I don't believe you need an organised religion to have a sense of morality or ethics. The educate together model is perfect and should be the norm in all schools - a general, non denominational religion class and the facilities available after school to churches for things like sacramental preparation.

The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?

Not convinced forcing the issue in another way would really work either. Would you punish children if they spoke English in the playground? Just creates more resentment. Speaking as someone schooled abroad, who unfortunately doesn't speak Irish, I would say the focus of Irish in schools should be more on being able to speak and converse in it, rather than reading and writing. If the aim is to have it as a genuine 1st/ 2nd language. I'd also apply that to other languages, if that's not how they're done/ were done if they're cut. I did french for 5 years up to GCSE level - couldn't converse in it, but I could probably cobble together a few paragraphs of a letter I had to rote learn for the written exam, which serves no useful purpose.

[thebooboys]

Eminence - The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?

I am a member of Gael-Taca Chorcaigh Here in Cork we will be running a pilot project with 8-10 English speaking schools to do P.E. through Irish to see if it will improve overall oral skills

[peadar1987]

Eminence - The amount of Irish (or another European language) taught can be increased very easily in primary schools without affecting other subjects: by making it the spoken language of the playground and PE. We need to improve our ability with foreign languages – out of curiosity, how many posters here have some degree of proficiency in a foreign language?

I am a member of Gael-Taca Chorcaigh Here in Cork we will be running a pilot project with 8-10 English speaking schools to do P.E. through Irish to see if it will improve overall oral skills

Well, to get the ball rolling, I have my Fáinne Airgead, but can barely speak any Irish any more, I have reasonable French, as in I can order beer and go shopping without too much bother, read articles fine unless they get all technical and esoteric, but Frenchies have to slow down a lot and cimplify their vocabulary before I can actually converse with them.

I speak a little Dutch as well, enough to read articles and kids' books, but not to speak or understand the language at any sort of speed.

We used to have "Sacar as Gaeilge" every now and again in primary school, where you had a free kick given if you spoke any English. Far from making us resent it, the aim quickly became to catch out other people. Lots of laughing, lots of fun. We also had a raffle every week, as I recall, you got tickets for speaking Irish around the school, ordering your lunch in the canteen as Gaeilge and the like, and the prize was a Taz Bar or something. Didn't stop people really, really getting into the hunt for ticéadaí though.

[Eminence Grise]

I am a member of Gael-Taca Chorcaigh Here in Cork we will be running a pilot project with 8-10 English speaking schools to do P.E. through Irish to see if it will improve overall oral skills

That sounds like a fantastic scheme. I hope it goes well for you.

@ Macy: I've been teaching/lecturing for 12 years - long enough to know that punishing people is absolutely the wrong way to go. If you get four-year olds accustomed to the language of the playground being Irish, it becomes habit, much as Peadar outlined. Kinda like emphasising the 'language fun' in 'language fundamentalist'!

[EAFC_rdfl]

Loosely related, this is a bit annoying to read - http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0711/eur...pen-forum.html

Why, when we are struggling to fund education, are the universities not milking any funding money available for research activities? surely it would keep some graduates of the dole queue by letting them do Masters/research work.