Stephen Kenny

[tetsujin1979]

FWIW I do think that Kenny has improved some aspects of our play. We've more possession and attempt/complete more passes in games that we did under previous managers, but so much of it is what Mourinho (or Wenger?) called "sterile possession", i.e having the ball but doing nothing with it. Against Norway, we spent so much time getting the ball from defence into midfield, where we were outnumbered, and the ball rarely went into the final third. Kenny has his ideas of how football should be played, how chances should be created, and there's nothing wrong with that, but he doesn't seem to have a plan B. It's been mentioned a few times that the substitutions he makes happen too late to have any real impact on the game, against Norway hid first change came after Norway had already made three changes. I was in the East stand and didn't see anyone warming up untli around the 65th minute, so a substitute couldn't come on until the 70th minute.

[seanfhear]

Still trying to figure out the purpose of all the tildas. Almost as confusing as some of Bielsa's waffle at this stage!

The heat in the football kitchen is not for everyone.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Is this in context of debating whether Portugal are top tier or a notch below top tier?

And on the "what we were vs what we are point" I genuinely think international football is harder now for all but the elite teams. Countries that were weak 25 years ago are well organised now and harder to play against. Teams like Greece, Turkey, Scotland all have far better structures and facilities (Turkey's are amazing and they have a huge population) yet they've sunk to NL League 3 in recent times. Our domestic facilities are pathetic. Of course during this time Ireland has declined too. So almost every game we play is objectively difficult or a banana skin. That's just the way it is.

Has Kenny dragged us down this low? I don't think so, or at least it's too simple to say it's all down to him. I think we're in decline and have been for a while and need to pull a few rabbits out of the hat talent-wise. As CTP says, the promising U21 crop just hasn't developed.

Could Kenny be doing better? Yes, absolutely and in so many ways. Stu and Gary Breen both say the same thing I think: there have been steps forward but frequently followed by big steps back. The last window infuriated me for its conservatism. I have little confidence in Kenny at the moment but I think it's more or less right that he's still here. I do think he has started something that must be finished, though not necessarily by him. If there was a clearly better alternative available - Irish or otherwise - I'd be very open to it.

And footy is a bit mad too: Germany & Argentina could/should have been out of sight, then lost.

Not just Portugal, it appears to be every team we face are been talked up or excuses made. Just like what you've done there. There are more countries that are competitive now all of a sudden. This excuse wasn't used or accepted for any previous managers. Was anyone saying that when we struggled to a draw against Georgia in McCarthy's last reign? We have gone into every group thinking we could qualify, against Denmark and Switzerland under McCarthy, against Serbia, Wales and Austria in 2018, against Germany, Poland and Scotland for Euro 2016. Most of us either expected us to qualify or come very close to it. Now we have Kenny saying that surely no one expected us to qualify ahead of Serbia and Portugal for the World Cup, everyone saying we have no hope against France and the Netherlands. This kind of defeatist attitude has been introduced by Kenny and his supporters have bought into it. We used to criticise managers talking down our players and now all we hear from Kenny supporters is that our players are crap. McCarthy had a midfield of an aging Glenn Whelan, Hendrick and Hourihane, he made us competitive. Kenny has had a squad of similar or better quality depending on how you look at it and he has made us uncompetitive.

This is also ignoring that the only periods of improvement under Kenny has come when coaching, formation and tactics were implemented by someone else. When Kenny was in charge with only inexperienced coaches with him, we could barely score a goal, had no direction and were left languishing in our groups. This happened without actually building for the future, look at the teams he selected in his first Nations League. This building for 2024 myth was only introduced by Kenny after the Luxembourg defeat. This again was swallowed without question by Kenny supporters. And this is the crux of the issue. For many people, this is about Stephen Kenny succeeding and not about Ireland. They backed him as the saviour of Irish football, celebrated the removal of McCarthy and have sung his name since, even when losing to Luxembourg. They refuse to admit they've backed a dud and now it's about saving face. The same with Kenny, the development of our players come secondary to him saving his job. It's not right that he's still there because he's probably the worst manager in our history, his record backs this up. And he's mostly played against countries with players in lower leagues than ours. We usually punch above our weight but he has us punching way below. He is doing serious damage to our progression and has already driven us far back from where he took over.

[Stuttgart88]

I just don't see it the same way, which isn't to say I'm offering unqualified support to Kenny. My personal expectations have been downgraded for quite a while (2012 era maybe) and I think I've been realistic in my assessment of opponents. Not necessarily because they're good but because we've been in decline and just not developing players of sufficient quality to be considered a solid tier 2 country anymore. I think for about a decade we've been a tier 3 nation who could on occasion mix it with a tier 1 or 2 country. Remember we did only come (a good) third in 2016 qualifying. And I think we had senior players of a better quality then. Although we have players at decent clubs now, very few are key players at their clubs.

I think it's a while since we punched above our weight. But yes, it's clear we're not doing it now and it doesn't look like we will for some time either

I'm not sure it's a myth that we've been building for 2024. I had understood all along this episode has been seen as a rebuild and a change in attitude. The problem is that the rebuild has been haphazard, confused and often too conservative. Poor results have put pressure on Kenny to sacrifice experimentation with results, as you rightly say, but at the same time Collins, Omobamidele, the goalies, O'Shea, Cullen, Knight, Molumby are all mainstays now and others would have been if not for injury. That's a pretty hefty shift in personnel.

I think there has been more than a bit of exaggeration there too. McCarthy's departure wasn't celebrated, was it? I think most people were surprised by the timing of Kenny's elevation and I think it was a mistake on two fronts (the play off and the U21s). I was glad to see the back of McCarthy because I think it signified the end of a long era that was essentially Charlton v.5.0 and our entering the 21st century was far too long overdue.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

I just don't see it the same way, which isn't to say I'm offering unqualified support to Kenny. My personal expectations have been downgraded for quite a while (2012 era maybe) and I think I've been realistic in my assessment of opponents. Not necessarily because they're good but because we've been in decline and just not developing players of sufficient quality to be considered a solid tier 2 country anymore. I think for about a decade we've been a tier 3 nation who could on occasion mix it with a tier 1 or 2 country. Remember we did only come (a good) third in 2016 qualifying. And I think we had senior players of a better quality then. Although we have players at decent clubs now, very few are key players at their clubs.

I think it's a while since we punched above our weight. But yes, it's clear we're not doing it now and it doesn't look like we will for some time either

I'm not sure it's a myth that we've been building for 2024. I had understood all along this episode has been seen as a rebuild and a change in attitude. The problem is that the rebuild has been haphazard, confused and often too conservative. Poor results have put pressure on Kenny to sacrifice experimentation with results, as you rightly say, but at the same time Collins, Omobamidele, the goalies, O'Shea, Cullen, Knight, Molumby are all mainstays now and others would have been if not for injury. That's a pretty hefty shift in personnel.

I think there has been more than a bit of exaggeration there too. McCarthy's departure wasn't celebrated, was it? I think most people were surprised by the timing of Kenny's elevation and I think it was a mistake on two fronts (the play off and the U21s). I was glad to see the back of McCarthy because I think it signified the end of a long era that was essentially Charlton v.5.0 and our entering the 21st century was far too long overdue.

To try to make your point, you've had to completely ignore McCarthy's reign directly before Kenny and the involvement of coaches such as Anthony Barry. It shows how weak your argument is when you're forced to do that. Switzerland got to the Euro quarter finals, Denmark got to the Euro semi finals. That's Kenny's starting point, those were the teams we were competing with. Now we're competing with Bulgaria, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan and Armenia. With nearly qualifying for the Euros, there was no talk of a rebuild. And Kenny's team selections reflected that there was no rebuild.

Here are Kenny's first 10 team selections:

v Bulgaria:
Darren Randolph Enda Stevens Shane Duffy John Egan Matt Doherty James McCarthy Adam Idah Jeff Hendrick Conor Hourihane Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly
v Finland
Darren Randolph; Enda Stevens, Shane Duffy John Egan, Matt Doherty; Robbie Brady, Harry Arter, Jayson Molumby; Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly Adam Idah
v Slovakia
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan, Enda Stevens; Jeff Hendrick, James McCarthy, Conor Hourihane; Callum Robinson, David McGoldrick, James McClean.
v Wales
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Kevin Long Shane Duffy Enda Stevens; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Jayson Molumby Shane Long Robbie Brady James McClean
v Finland
Randolph; Doherty, Duffy (c), O'Shea, Stevens; Molumby, Hourihane, Horgan, Hendrick, Connolly; Maguire.
v England
Darren Randolph; Cyrus Christie, Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Alan Browne; Daryl Horgan, Callum O'Dowda, Adam Idah
v Wales
Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, O'Shea, Molumby, Hendrick, Horgan, Brady, McClean, Long, Idah
v Bulgaria
Darren Randolph; Ryan Manning, Kevin Long, Shane Duffy (capt), Dara O'Shea; Conor Hourihane, Jason Knight, Robbie Brady; Ronan Curtis, Daryl Horgan, James Collins.
v Serbia
Mark Travers; Seamus Coleman, Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Ciaran Clark, Dara O'Shea; Alan Browne, Jayson Molumby, Josh Cullen; Callum Robinson, Aaron Connolly.
v Luxembourg
Gavin Bazunu; Seamus Coleman, Dara O'Shea, Ciaran Clark; Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Josh Cullen, Jason Knight, Alan Browne; Callum Robinson, James Collins.

Pretty obvious that he wasn't planning for 2024 with those selections. That talk came after the Luxembourg defeat.

McCarthy's term ending early was celebrated, Kenny was coming in to transform our fortunes according to many. They look very foolish now. He had a competitive squad and a whole host of youngsters coming through to add to it, some you've listed. He has failed miserably with the hand he was dealt. There's no way around that fact. I think it's right to play a more progressive game on the pitch but Kenny is 100% not the man to implement it. He's proven that now. We stick with him in charge and the chances are that we'll end up with a long ball manager next. Like I said, he's doing serious damage to our progression.

[Jd2793]

To try to make your point, you've had to completely ignore McCarthy's reign directly before Kenny and the involvement of coaches such as Anthony Barry. It shows how weak your argument is when you're forced to do that. Switzerland got to the Euro quarter finals, Denmark got to the Euro semi finals. That's Kenny's starting point, those were the teams we were competing with. Now we're competing with Bulgaria, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan and Armenia. With nearly qualifying for the Euros, there was no talk of a rebuild. And Kenny's team selections reflected that there was no rebuild.

Here are Kenny's first 10 team selections:

v Bulgaria:
Darren Randolph Enda Stevens Shane Duffy John Egan Matt Doherty James McCarthy Adam Idah Jeff Hendrick Conor Hourihane Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly
v Finland
Darren Randolph; Enda Stevens, Shane Duffy John Egan, Matt Doherty; Robbie Brady, Harry Arter, Jayson Molumby; Callum O'Dowda Aaron Connolly Adam Idah
v Slovakia
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan, Enda Stevens; Jeff Hendrick, James McCarthy, Conor Hourihane; Callum Robinson, David McGoldrick, James McClean.
v Wales
Darren Randolph; Matt Doherty, Kevin Long Shane Duffy Enda Stevens; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Jayson Molumby Shane Long Robbie Brady James McClean
v Finland
Randolph; Doherty, Duffy (c), O'Shea, Stevens; Molumby, Hourihane, Horgan, Hendrick, Connolly; Maguire.
v England
Darren Randolph; Cyrus Christie, Matt Doherty, Shane Duffy, John Egan; Conor Hourihane, Jeff Hendrick, Alan Browne; Daryl Horgan, Callum O'Dowda, Adam Idah
v Wales
Randolph, Doherty, Duffy, O'Shea, Molumby, Hendrick, Horgan, Brady, McClean, Long, Idah
v Bulgaria
Darren Randolph; Ryan Manning, Kevin Long, Shane Duffy (capt), Dara O'Shea; Conor Hourihane, Jason Knight, Robbie Brady; Ronan Curtis, Daryl Horgan, James Collins.
v Serbia
Mark Travers; Seamus Coleman, Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Ciaran Clark, Dara O'Shea; Alan Browne, Jayson Molumby, Josh Cullen; Callum Robinson, Aaron Connolly.
v Luxembourg
Gavin Bazunu; Seamus Coleman, Dara O'Shea, Ciaran Clark; Matt Doherty, Enda Stevens, Josh Cullen, Jason Knight, Alan Browne; Callum Robinson, James Collins.

Pretty obvious that he wasn't planning for 2024 with those selections. That talk came after the Luxembourg defeat.

McCarthy's term ending early was celebrated, Kenny was coming in to transform our fortunes according to many. They look very foolish now. He had a competitive squad and a whole host of youngsters coming through to add to it, some you've listed. He has failed miserably with the hand he was dealt. There's no way around that fact. I think it's right to play a more progressive game on the pitch but Kenny is 100% not the man to implement it. He's proven that now. We stick with him in charge and the chances are that we'll end up with a long ball manager next. Like I said, he's doing serious damage to our progression.

no matter how many love letters you write to mick, his time was up and his day in football is long gone. kenny aint the answer but mick certainly wasnt either.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

no matter how many love letters you write to mick, his time was up and his day in football is long gone. kenny aint the answer but mick certainly wasnt either.

That wasn't a love letter to McCarthy, it was just a good old fashioned filleting of the defense of Kenny. My last few sentences in the post you quoted show that I don't think McCarthy should have been kept on either but he was replaced by a manager worse than Stan. Probably our worst ever manager.

[mypost]

To try to make your point, you've had to completely ignore McCarthy's reign directly before Kenny and the involvement of coaches such as Anthony Barry. It shows how weak your argument is when you're forced to do that. Switzerland got to the Euro quarter finals, Denmark got to the Euro semi finals. That's Kenny's starting point, those were the teams we were competing with. Now we're competing with Bulgaria, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan and Armenia. With nearly qualifying for the Euros, there was no talk of a rebuild. And Kenny's team selections reflected that there was no rebuild.

Pretty obvious that he wasn't planning for 2024 with those selections. That talk came after the Luxembourg defeat.

McCarthy's term ending early was celebrated, Kenny was coming in to transform our fortunes according to many. They look very foolish now. He had a competitive squad and a whole host of youngsters coming through to add to it, some you've listed. He has failed miserably with the hand he was dealt. There's no way around that fact. I think it's right to play a more progressive game on the pitch but Kenny is 100% not the man to implement it. He's proven that now. We stick with him in charge and the chances are that we'll end up with a long ball manager next. Like I said, he's doing serious damage to our progression.

We just got 7 points out of the NL group. How did England get on? Wales? France, the defending champions? We've won 2 of our last 3 games, won 3 home games this year. We recently went 3 years without a home win at all.

We're not preparing for 2024, we're a transition team bringing through new players playing a totally different kind of football to anything we've seen in the past 20-30 years, where after every failed campaign (and there were many) there would be a massive inquiry into why we didn't qualify and what we need to change. The change is currently happening, and people like you can't accept it because results are going to be affected, and have been.

Every team goes through transition. Some of them have the luxury of having enough resources to do so without suffering on the pitch. But we don't have those resources, so we have to find them and develop them, and it takes time when everyone wants results yesterday.

We've qualified for 2 tournaments in 20 years. So we've got to accept where we stand and drop the demands that we either qualify or sack the manager. Otherwise no manager will want to do the job.

[osarusan]

I think it's a while since we punched above our weight. But yes, it's clear we're not doing it now and it doesn't look like we will for some time either

Punching above our weight is a bonus. Punching at our weight is where the benchmark should be. Too often, Kenny has had us punching below our weight.

There's no doubt that we have a dearth of players compared to some past squads. There's also no doubt that we've gone backwards by standing still as so many other countries get their act together in terms of facilities and footballing infrastructure.

But all that said, some of the results under Kenny have been inexcusable. We are losing to teams, and failing to beat teams, that we should be dismissing with ease, despite our weaknesses.

Now, if those preformances and results were mere blips on the road in a journey that was obviously showing great promise otherwise, they might be tolerable. But, in my case at least, I'm not convinced that any great improvement is being made at all, or any great transition is taking place at all.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

We just got 7 points out of the NL group. How did England get on? Wales? France, the defending champions? We've won 2 of our last 3 games, won 3 home games this year. We recently went 3 years without a home win at all.

We're not preparing for 2024, we're a transition team bringing through new players playing a totally different kind of football to anything we've seen in the past 20-30 years, where after every failed campaign (and there were many) there would be a massive inquiry into why we didn't qualify and what we need to change. The change is currently happening, and people like you can't accept it because results are going to be affected, and have been.

Every team goes through transition. Some of them have the luxury of having enough resources to do so without suffering on the pitch. But we don't have those resources, so we have to find them and develop them, and it takes time when everyone wants results yesterday.

We've qualified for 2 tournaments in 20 years. So we've got to accept where we stand and drop the demands that we either qualify or sack the manager. Otherwise no manager will want to do the job.

That's some amount of spin and bluster, typical of Kenny's reign. We got 7 points battling it out with Armenia at the bottom of our group, way off the top. What other countries did is irrelevant. Kenny's only wins have been against Scotland, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Lithuania, Malta, Qatar and Andorra. Played 30, won 8, drawn 11, lost 11. You'd actually think he was doing a decent job looking at your post but the facts prove otherwise.

Not preparing for 2024? Is it 2026 now? 2028? Soon Kenny will have everything in place to give the World Cup 2038 a good go. Kenny has us playing some of the worst stuff we've seen in longer than the past 20-30 years. He's just not capable at this level or anywhere near it. He has had to get coaches on board to show him some basic tactics, formations etc. Why not just hire those coaches? Why waste any more time on this clown? The players are laughing at him in the dressing room.

We don't have those resources yet we should have qualified for the Euros with the same squad Kenny had just 2 years ago? It's not his failure to qualify that's the issue, it's that he hasn't even come close to qualification. Lost to Slovakia, came near the bottom of his first Nations League, came near the bottom of World Cup qualification, came near the bottom of his second Nations League. Repeated failure with no sign of things improving. That's why he has to be sacked. No amount of spin can counteract that.

[Stuttgart88]

Where did I completely ignore McCarthy’s tenure just before Kenny? The one where we were rubbish twice against Gibraltar, took one point from Switzerland. Two decent points against Denmark though. I don’t think it’s relevant to my point.

[mypost]

That's some amount of spin and bluster, typical of Kenny's reign. We got 7 points battling it out with Armenia at the bottom of our group, way off the top. What other countries did is irrelevant. Kenny's only wins have been against Scotland, Luxembourg, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Lithuania, Malta, Qatar and Andorra. Played 30, won 8, drawn 11, lost 11. You'd actually think he was doing a decent job looking at your post but the facts prove otherwise.

Not preparing for 2024? Is it 2026 now? 2028? Soon Kenny will have everything in place to give the World Cup 2038 a good go. Kenny has us playing some of the worst stuff we've seen in longer than the past 20-30 years. He's just not capable at this level or anywhere near it. He has had to get coaches on board to show him some basic tactics, formations etc. Why not just hire those coaches? Why waste any more time on this clown? The players are laughing at him in the dressing room.

We don't have those resources yet we should have qualified for the Euros with the same squad Kenny had just 2 years ago? It's not his failure to qualify that's the issue, it's that he hasn't even come close to qualification. Lost to Slovakia, came near the bottom of his first Nations League, came near the bottom of World Cup qualification, came near the bottom of his second Nations League. Repeated failure with no sign of things improving.

We've just had our best ever NL campaign by some margin, and then you tell me we're not making progress. This is what I have to debate with, here and elsewhere.

Our resources have been way behind most countries and dwindling for the past 10-15 years. When those players couldn't be replaced, we played ever more negative football to compensate. Indeed I struggle to recall any game since about 2008, when there wasn't a referendum held on whether he should stay or go after it, win lose or neither. The team was getting booed off after games during campaigns when we qualified, let alone when we didn't. When they failed, we sacked the manager.

Now we are in transition because as a tactic, parking the bus and hoping to nick a goal off Duffy's head from a setpiece had a limited shelf life. We had two chances to get to the last Euros before Kenny arrived and it didn't happen. If you want to get to the tournaments, you have to try and win matches, not simply park the bus and hope to draw your way to tournaments.

I don't know what tournament we're preparing for, I don't think that's the priority right now. The priority should be bringing new players through and developing them to the stage that when we qualify the next time, they're able to cope at the top table of the game. That's what we're trying to do, and we need to let the manager get on with doing it.

[ontheotherhand]

Now we are in transition because as a tactic, parking the bus and hoping to nick a goal off Duffy's head from a setpiece had a limited shelf life.

I do miss the days when our on field tactics were a better metaphor for our off field strategies. At least there was a better synergy between the lack of planning on both fronts.

I admire your continued confidence mypost but I don't think we are really seeing the manager bringing players through or trying models that might get the most out of what we have at this point. For a time maybe but these friendlies were a completely botched opportunity. In the grand scheme of things maybe it's fine, end of season fare and all that but for me that almost makes it worse. Why play players who have checked out and have nothing to prove? Why put Kelleher in for the game he'd face less action in? Why not try him against Norway? If Ferguson has the potential to be the main man why not get him in now and run with it. Why not put Ogbene at wingback? We know what we have with Doherty. It was Malta, why not try Hodge etc? Why not try a different formation or approach? Our third string should be able for Malta. Why not bring in all the fringe players and see who might be worth a place? He's operating in a scenario where he can't actually do the job that's required for fear of losing the job. Very frustrating. Maybe more patience is required but I'm just not seeing the big picture planning anymore. Jeff Hendrick ffs.

Ultimately I still think we are a long way away from competing and our priority, with very limited resources, shouldn't even be the national team if we are serious about competing properly. There's plenty to do in Ireland to develop players who can compete and we have nothing to do it with. Clearing debts and focusing on facilities at home should be the goal for me...or following any sort of model to improve our team. Luxembourg, Iceland etc all had a plan. We just keep hitting and hoping. That said, I wouldn't mind someone else coming in with a fresh slate. The endless referenda and gas lighting from all sides is getting so tiresome.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

Where did I completely ignore McCarthy’s tenure just before Kenny? The one where we were rubbish twice against Gibraltar, took one point from Switzerland. Two decent points against Denmark though. I don’t think it’s relevant to my point.

You were saying we're a tier 3 nation, not having the players anymore but conveniently forgot to mention that directly prior to Kenny taking over, we should have qualified ahead of Denmark. That's the problem with trying to defend Kenny, you have to ignore so much evidence and still the argument is **** poor. You yet again had to ignore the rest of my points which destroyed your argument.

[BOOMSHAKALAKA]

We've just had our best ever NL campaign by some margin, and then you tell me we're not making progress. This is what I have to debate with, here and elsewhere.

Our resources have been way behind most countries and dwindling for the past 10-15 years. When those players couldn't be replaced, we played ever more negative football to compensate. Indeed I struggle to recall any game since about 2008, when there wasn't a referendum held on whether he should stay or go after it, win lose or neither. The team was getting booed off after games during campaigns when we qualified, let alone when we didn't. When they failed, we sacked the manager.

Now we are in transition because as a tactic, parking the bus and hoping to nick a goal off Duffy's head from a setpiece had a limited shelf life. We had two chances to get to the last Euros before Kenny arrived and it didn't happen. If you want to get to the tournaments, you have to try and win matches, not simply park the bus and hope to draw your way to tournaments.

I don't know what tournament we're preparing for, I don't think that's the priority right now. The priority should be bringing new players through and developing them to the stage that when we qualify the next time, they're able to cope at the top table of the game. That's what we're trying to do, and we need to let the manager get on with doing it.

More spin and wishy washy nonsense. Our aim now is not to qualify for tournaments but to start winning the possession stats against our opposition. Like the other poster, you have to ignore the campaign directly before Kenny. Somehow with worse resources, our previous manager managed to make us competitive with teams who went far in the last Euros. Now we're competing with Azerbaijan and Armenia. And swinging the ball into Duffy has saved Kenny from an even more embarrassing record, he's scored 4 times under Kenny. You couldn't make it up!