Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[geysir]

Villa win their first game in ages
I really never saw what Keane offered as a pundit, apart from his one liner shock value popular quotes which went against the grain, his actual stock analysis was banal,mono dimensional and repetitive, therefore I do share Cas' wonderment at what people find fascinating about Keane in his post playing days, in regards to football analysis and coaching. Apart from that, I don't mind him.
He's not worth his salary for us. I'd prefer to have a character like Noel King in there as assistant and I'd say he could do with a decent salary.
It's not up to the FAI to sponsor Keane's apprenticeship as a manager and the odds are he'll not make the grade.

[DeLorean]

Well it was O'Neill that wanted him, not the FAI. Accommodating the manager with the assistant he choses is good practice I think, and their wages are being heavily subsidised by Denis O'Brien anyway so in that sense the figures are kind of irrelevant, crazy n all as they are.

[geysir]

The salary figures are not irrelevant just because there is a reputed 40% - 50% subsidy, the FAI still pay twice as much as is arguably appropriate for an association of Ireland's size. The subsidy also does not negate the gulf in inequality between what club managers earn in the LOI (at the bottom of the professional ladder) and the extreme high salary paid to the top pair, who are part time.
Keane may well be O'Neill's choice but it is farcical that an assistant manager of a small association commands a salary that's more than most managers in Uefa land and maybe more than all the managers in the LOI combined.
Keane doesn't even look like a proper assistant, where's his effin' clipboard?

[DeLorean]

It's not something that bothers me too much. We're not a big draw, if we have to pay a bit more to attract a high profile, proven manager and his chosen assistant, with a massively generous no strings attached donation then, within reason, so be it. I'm not sure what the LOI managers wages have to do with it?

[geysir]

It's not something that bothers me too much. We're not a big draw, if we have to pay a bit more to attract a high profile, proven manager and his chosen assistant, with a massively generous no strings attached donation then, within reason, so be it.

Other similar sized countries manage alright without having to pay a fortune to lure a manager, it's not the lack of lure that the irish job offers, that forces the FAI to pay out a fortune for a managerial team and one that just happens to manage average grade results.
If you're not bothered by the issue, then fine.

I'm not sure what the LOI managers wages have to do with it?

What is the relevance between a club football managers' salary in the domestic league which is under the control of the FAI and the FAI's representative team's management´salary?
I supposed that the mere example of the glaring inequality of the Intl manager earning 30 times what a manager does in the LOI, says something about the state of Irish football. That's my opinion about what I perceive to be a glaring dysfunction in Irish football, but that's another debate.

This current discussion is about Roy and Cas seeing him without any clothes and although Cas has always seen Roy like this, he does have a point. Eg. Roy as a pundit was banal yet he was lauded as being 'left field' etc.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'm not sure what you're saying though? If this was a decision based on his ego, wouldn't he have stayed on and wanted to prove he could combine both roles effectively? Quitting was an admission that he called it wrong and wasn't capable of doing both roles the way he thought he would.

Not in his world. More like he p*ssed people off.
If he admits it fair enough, but don't hold your breath.

Though in latter years, he occasionally has a point re.the former.

[tricky_colour]

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.

I preferred it when it was full of spelling and grammatical errors.

[tricky_colour]

Why would anybody hang a picture crooked... my skin just crawled at the thought. In fairness though, it had more character the other way. A Tricky Masterclass.

I preferred it when it was full of spelling and grammatical errors.

Strictly speaking though shouldn't there be one thread for Roy and one thread for Martin?

I mean there is definitely a separate thread for Roy Keane so the question is which thread should you post in for a comment about Roy
Keane?

[Spudulika]

I'd be surprised if Giles could name three Roy Keane signings. That's not to say he's wrong.



We don't really know for sure what Keane has or hasn't been offered post-Ipswich, I think he said in the book that he turned down a couple, possibly from abroad. Just because he didn't accept a managerial position until November 2013 doesn't mean he wasn't offered something, or at least approached. He probably needed a time out after Ipswich anyway. I can see where Cascarino is coming from, that Keane can mess up and still land on his feet, but I agree with Danny that it's not for Cascarino to say, just comes across like jealousy to me. I mean, for Keane to be offered a contract by the FAI, after all that went before, was pretty astounding. Villa and Celtic are two massive clubs to have offered positions as well, given his relative lack of success in management, and goes to show that a big personality/reputation can take you a long way.

He was chased and offered the head coach position by the Turkish team Kasimpasa. They were in advanced talks but there was 1 sticking point....
He was approached by the former GD of Spartak Moscow in December 2012 - January 2013 to become head coach, turned it down...there was 1 sticking point.

The sticking point was the same, the position was "head coach", which means limited powers signing players and all that goes with it. He was right to refuse the latter, but the former....could have been nice.

[KK77]

John would know, to be fair.

I would disagree myself. I would feel it was just his two cents on it or should I say his opinion to which to be fair he is entitled to.

[DeLorean]

Other similar sized countries manage alright without having to pay a fortune to lure a manager, it's not the lack of lure that the irish job offers, that forces the FAI to pay out a fortune for a managerial team and one that just happens to manage average grade results.
If you're not bothered by the issue, then fine.

Just to be clear, when I said it's not something that bothers me too much, I didn't mean it in an apathetic way. I just meant that, for me, it would be one of the lesser issues of how the association run the game here. I'd say fair play to them for managing to get Trap first, and then Martin O'Neill. Lower profile managers can be successful, of course, but I think they are giving us the best chance of success by going down the proven manager route, sadly it guarantees nothings.

What is the relevance between a club football managers' salary in the domestic league which is under the control of the FAI and the FAI's representative team's management´salary?
I supposed that the mere example of the glaring inequality of the Intl manager earning 30 times what a manager does in the LOI, says something about the state of Irish football. That's my opinion about what I perceive to be a glaring dysfunction in Irish football, but that's another debate.

Excuse my ignorance, but aren't the LOI managers paid by their clubs? They're never likely to justify a big wage when most of the clubs struggle to get 3,000 at their games. I suppose it is dysfunctional but I'm not sure an FAI with the best will in the world would manage to close that gap, without the national team being the one that suffers. It is another debate though and, to be honest, I wouldn't be well up enough to contribute much to it.

This current discussion is about Roy and Cas seeing him without any clothes and although Cas has always seen Roy like this, he does have a point. Eg. Roy as a pundit was banal yet he was lauded as being 'left field' etc.

Well I suppose it's only a matter of opinion whether Keane was a decent pundit or not. Personally I would agree with you that he didn't add to much in terms of analysing a match, but there aren't too many around that do. He probably jumped ahead of the majority by just saying what he thought, instead of trying to be politically correct and, to be fair, I don't think I heard anybody give him credit for anything more than that.

[DannyInvincible]

I agree with geysir in making the LOI manager comparison/connection, even if seemingly indirect. If the FAI were pumping the money into more sustainable models of progress that would aid long-term domestic development, I would happily put up with lower profile names in the managerial and assistant positions for a few years. Unfortunately, the future is rather bleak because the FAI don't appear to have the nous or foresight to look very far down the line. Competing associations are moving on and we have fewer and fewer players playing at the top level of English football by the season. Formerly, we relied on English academies to produce our talent but we can't piggyback any longer (due to the way the worldwide footballing market has changed and the EPL becoming a truly global behemoth), so we should be concentrating on ensuring a steady stream of talent internally that will have a greater chance of engineering better performances and long-term success. That in turn would generate greater public interest and increased revenue that could be pumped back into the self-sustaining model, thereby ensuring a follow-up generation of talent. It would be a more sustainable, stable and beneficial way of doing it rather than the short-termist throwing of everything at high-profile senior team managers and assistants. What happens when said managers and their assistants inevitably fail to deliver because they don't have the players coming through? Of course, the above would require a complete revamp of the game's structures in Ireland which is easier written about than done. I also acknowledge O'Brien's contributions, but I think it is generally accepted that the FAI devotes a disproportionate level of focus and investment to projects from which only the senior men's team will benefit.

[DeLorean]

I agree with geysir in making the LOI manager comparison/connection, even if seemingly indirect. If the FAI were pumping the money into more sustainable models of progress that would aid long-term domestic development, I would happily put up with lower profile names in the managerial and assistant positions for a few years.

O'Neill is supposed to be on €1.2m pa and Keane €700k. Apparently O'Brien is paying roughly half? That leaves the FAI paying €950k pa for the two. What would be a reasonable wage for the manager and his assistant do ye feel? Just say they were paid half of these figures with the same arrangement in place with O'Brien, ignoring the likeliness of MON and Keane saying "thanks, but no thanks". That would free up 475k to put into the LOI.... is that a significant sum or peanuts?

[DannyInvincible]

O'Neill is supposed to be on €1.2m pa and Keane €700k. Apparently O'Brien is paying roughly half? That leaves the FAI paying €950k pa for the two. What would be a reasonable wage for the manager and his assistant do ye feel? Just say they were paid half of these figures with the same arrangement in place with O'Brien. That would free up 475k to put into the LOI.... is that a significant sum or peanuts?

Very significant, I would think. It would be nearly five times the league-winning prize-money.

I'd be interested in seeing a list of salaries of managers and their assistants across UEFA, just by way of comparison. I'm not sure what a reasonable precise figure would be; I just don't think getting a big name in should be the priority because it's not a sustainable method of investment.

[DeLorean]

Yeah but I think it's generally accepted that the prize money for the league champions is peanuts, relatively speaking, and that's given to just one club. Obviously the 475k would have to be spread to benefit the entire league, or used for some worthwhile project. I don't have a huge opinion on this, just a general wondering. I'm sure I'd agree with ye entirely if I thought paying our management team less would be of huge benefit to the LOI, I'm just highly doubtful that it would. I understand that the whole structure needs a revamp though, an issue far greater than the price of securing MONKEANO.