Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[DannyInvincible]

Which comments of Keane's in relation to Martinez and the fitness of the players were actually serious? I've read that some (especially those about it being a miracle when James and Seamie turn up being able to walk) were made in humour, but does Roy really believe that sit-down talks are needed? If this is and has been a feeling within the camp generally, it's something that should already have been communicated to Everton in an official capacity/something that should have been acted upon before now.

[Stuttgart88]

The Guardian today says that the McCarthy injury was shown to be a grade one tear which has a typical 2 week recovery period, so if James was to play this weekend it'd be completely normal.

I haven't included the link because I read that in the print edition this morning whereas the online edition doesn't contain that quote.

It's hard to tell what's happening. Of course Martinez is going to protect his players' integrity and at the same time it's in his interests that they sit out an international break if they have an injury concern. Keane might be right to be suspicious but overall it means that the more excitable public start to question the players' commitment and the whole thing could probably be handled better by private conversation, not a game of media tennis.

[ArdeeBhoy]

In a way, this is hardly news. Club managers just aren't interested and are usually happier when their players don't play...

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

He was in Ireland when he was a prepubescent, he doesn't really remember it and he knew about the connection and it was one he wanted to do. OK that's me proven wrong so.

I said that he is fully entitled to declare for Ireland and MON is fully entitled to call him up. I even complimented his performance against USA and admitted that on first glance I may have been proven wrong about Doherty being a better option but I'm sorry his reasons for Ireland don't sit well with me and no amount of justifying it will change my mind.

There are people (Kilbane, McCarthy & McGeady) who do feel genuinely Irish and it trivialises things when you compare the likes of them to the likes of Christie.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Who cares? Half the Diaspora 20 years ago or so hadn't even set foot in the country!!!

[DannyInvincible]

He was in Ireland when he was a prepubescent, he doesn't really remember it and he knew about the connection and it was one he wanted to do. OK that's me proven wrong so.

What's wrong with you? If I point it out to you again, you'll no doubt accuse me of being patronising, but you really don't seem to get it (or you are being intentionally obtuse for dramatic effect).

I said that he is fully entitled to declare for Ireland and MON is fully entitled to call him up. I even complimented his performance against USA and admitted that on first glance I may have been proven wrong about Doherty being a better option but I'm sorry his reasons for Ireland don't sit well with me and no amount of justifying it will change my mind.

What's pragmatic about that?

There are people (Kilbane, McCarthy & McGeady) who do feel genuinely Irish and it trivialises things when you compare the likes of them to the likes of Christie.

So, what's the solution to your problem? It's easy to snipe from the sidelines, but you're all bluster when it really comes down to it.

[DeLorean]

I enjoy Keane for the most part but I think his comment about Martinez possibly not understanding Senior International Football, as he never played it, was silly and obviously meant as a dig. His comment regarding JG's father was potentially counter productive too, even if it was meant in good humour, which is debatable. I don't expect him to walk on eggshells but I do expect him to see the bigger picture and the potential damage his comments can cause.

[DeLorean]

I said that he is fully entitled to declare for Ireland and MON is fully entitled to call him up. I even complimented his performance against USA and admitted that on first glance I may have been proven wrong about Doherty being a better option but I'm sorry his reasons for Ireland don't sit well with me and no amount of justifying it will change my mind.

Why did you think Doherty was a better option in the first place? Had you really seen enough of either player to have an opinion?

Same with Keogh and Pearce... you said time and time again that Pearce should be ahead of Keogh in the pecking order, now after one friendly you're saying you're just as nervous with Pearce or Clark as you are with Keogh, a friendly Clark actually played well in. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your opinion is often based on very limited knowledge of what you've actually witnessed yourself. Nearly everybody on here admits they haven't seen enough of such and such a guy to comment, but you just pull the trigger regardless.

Can you explain how you're a pragmatist again please?

A pragmatist is someone who is pragmatic, that is to say, someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. A pragmatist usually has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract them.

Is this not the complete opposite to how you feel about Christie's inclusion?

[RiffRaff]

I'm no fan of Keane but part of me thinks MON may be glad to have him as bad bad cop. Martinez has a history of discouraging players from playing for Ireland and the Grealishs are dicking us about at this point. MON can't come out and say it but Keane can and while it gets written off as more Keane rantings, i'm sure it will have given the recipients of the criticism something to think about. If Grealish doesnt do enough to warrant an England call up, this debate will go on for years like Stephen Ireland and Kevin Nolan. Somebody has the force the decision so everyone can move on. If he wants to play for us great, if not move on. Martinez is also likely to think carefully about persuding his players to drop out from now on knowing how it might be perceived.

[DeLorean]

Good points in fairness.

[DannyInvincible]

Nearly everybody on here admits they haven't seen enough of such and such a guy to comment, but you just pull the trigger regardless.

Bang on. When it happens to hit the target, there is, of course, the inflated "I told you so", but when it misses, it's just swept under the carpet and we get Paul still telling us they're both always right. It's insufferable, as if the rash knee-jerkism wasn't enough to rile you!

I'm no fan of Keane but part of me thinks MON may be glad to have him as bad bad cop. Martinez has a history of discouraging players from playing for Ireland and the Grealishs are dicking us about at this point. MON can't come out and say it but Keane can and while it gets written off as more Keane rantings, i'm sure it will have given the recipients of the criticism something to think about. If Grealish doesnt do enough to warrant an England call up, this debate will go on for years like Stephen Ireland and Kevin Nolan. Somebody has the force the decision so everyone can move on. If he wants to play for us great, if not move on. Martinez is also likely to think carefully about persuding his players to drop out from now on knowing how it might be perceived.

That would be to assume Martinez does try and persuade his players to drop out though even if fit to play. Do we think he tries to discourage Gibson and McGeady from international football too, and, if not, why not?

On Grealish, it is not he who is allowing this matter to be prolonged. If anything, we are allowing ourselved to be "dicked about". If we want the matter dealt with once and for all, we can issue the lad an snappy ultimatum; commit now or never. It's not what I would personally advocate, but control of the matter is in our hands and we could easily take ownership of it if we weren't so fearful of losing his talent. It's politics rather than principles that are governing the situation. That's not necessarily to say that he isn't committed; things have been a bit up-in-the-air since his father's remarks about the US friendly squad, but his words prior to the announcement of the squad were suggestive of a positive move towards commitment.

Likewise, the Martinez matter is something that we can manage ourselves. We have the power to call players over for assessment. If the players are fully fit, we should have the courage to acknowledge we're in the right and play them. If the players themselves don't feel right for whatever reason, we can't compel them to play. If we think having a talk with Martinez and Everton might help ensure players will not feel pressure from the club to rest in future, then we should arrange that. It should have been arranged right after the Germany if there was scepticism then.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Why did you think Doherty was a better option in the first place? Had you really seen enough of either player to have an opinion?

Same with Keogh and Pearce... you said time and time again that Pearce should be ahead of Keogh in the pecking order, now after one friendly you're saying you're just as nervous with Pearce or Clark as you are with Keogh, a friendly Clark actually played well in. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but your opinion is often based on very limited knowledge of what you've actually witnessed yourself. Nearly everybody on here admits they haven't seen enough of such and such a guy to comment, but you just pull the trigger regardless.

Can you explain how you're a pragmatist again please?

A pragmatist is someone who is pragmatic, that is to say, someone who is practical and focused on reaching a goal. A pragmatist usually has a straightforward, matter-of-fact approach and doesn't let emotion distract them.

Is this not the complete opposite to how you feel about Christie's inclusion?

I've seen enough of Doherty at youth team level and club level to believe that he warrants an International call up. I haven't seen enough of Christie to warrant an opinion on him. Though I am not the one pushing for his inclusion in the starting line up for the Poland game based on one friendly match, in which he had several FIFA style attacking forays he would not get in a competitive situation against a better standard of team, and also several nervous defensive moments.

I have said Pearce is better than Keogh and I maintain that. I maintain Delaney should be in the squad ahead of both of them. Clark is a better player but his form has regressed over the last two years and he was noticeably shaky against U.S.A. Maybe people need to go back to the Portugal match thread and look through some of their own comments before pointing contradictions at me.

Excuse me, I'm not the one getting emotional. I am saying that Christie could be a useful option but at the same time his reasons for declaring for Ireland do not sit well with me. It's not my fault people are getting so worked up over my opinions.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Bang on. When it happens to hit the target, there is, of course, the inflated "I told you so", but when it misses, it's just swept under the carpet and we get Paul still telling us they're both always right. It's insufferable, as if the rash knee-jerkism wasn't enough to rile you!



That would be to assume Martinez does try and persuade his players to drop out though even if fit to play. Do we think he tries to discourage Gibson and McGeady from international football too, and, if not, why not?

On Grealish, it is not he who is allowing this matter to be prolonged. If anything, we are allowing ourselved to be "dicked about". If we want the matter dealt with once and for all, we can issue the lad an snappy ultimatum; commit now or never. It's not what I would personally advocate, but control of the matter is in our hands and we could easily take ownership of it if we weren't so fearful of losing his talent. It's politics rather than principles that are governing the situation. That's not necessarily to say that he isn't committed; things have been a bit up-in-the-air since his father's remarks about the US friendly squad, but his words prior to the announcement of the squad were suggestive of a positive move towards commitment.

Likewise, the Martinez matter is something that we can manage ourselves. We have the power to call players over for assessment. If the players are fully fit, we should have the courage to acknowledge we're in the right and play them. If the players themselves don't feel right for whatever reason, we can't compel them to play. If we think having a talk with Martinez and Everton might help ensure players will not feel pressure from the club to rest in future, then we should arrange that. It should have been arranged right after the Germany if there was scepticism then.

What are you babbling on about now? I complimented Christie & McGoldrick on their debuts and said I may have been hasty in saying Doherty was a better option but lads it's one match like. What more do you want from me? "Swept under the carpet" LOL

Almost a year ago, I said that Grealish was not 100% committed to Ireland and deciphered from his media comments that he was unsure he wanted to stick with Ireland. Other people, at times quite belligerently, maintained otherwise. In August, he declined an invitation to join the squad, which MON said himself, despite people's vehement protests to the contrary, maintaining that he wanted more time to think about it. He then declined an U-21 call up stating that he was focused on signing a new contract; new contract signed; he declined a second U-21 call up stating that he was focused on breaking into the Aston Villa first team.

I haven't ranted or raved (to the contrary), I haven't made any fallacious statements about Grealish and I haven't insulted him at any stage.

Did I receive any apologies for some of the belittling comments I received over the course of the last 9 months. No, I didn't. Just more mocking and condescension.

And you know fully well, Danny, that my problem with you goes no further than you being completely incapable of letting something go, making insulting comments about my posts and opinions and all around belligerence directed at me which I haven't reciprocated.

But I'm sure you will put me in my place again with another lengthy diatribe that is full of the same hypotheses I am supposedly guilty of and alternately accuse me of playing the victim, seeking pity or WUMMING because my opinions rub you the wrong way.

[DannyInvincible]

Maybe people need to go back to the Portugal match thread and look through some of their own comments before pointing contradictions at me.

Typical deflection... Why not face up to and follow through on arguments in which you originally purport to have an interest? You could at least attempt to reconcile or explain your own apparent contradictions? What do other people's alleged contradictions have to do with yours? They're completely irrelevant.

Excuse me, I'm not the one getting emotional. I am saying that Christie could be a useful option but at the same time his reasons for declaring for Ireland do not sit well with me. It's not my fault people are getting so worked up over my opinions.

If you're a pragmatist, why bang on about what you perceive to be the one or two single reasons for his declaration so dramatically?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Contd....

Gibson & McGeady are squad players. Coleman & McCarthy play every game. That's the rub. I couldn't be arsed saying anything more on the situation but O'Neill has hinted at unease with the way Everton are doing things and Keane has outright voiced his opinion on it. I'm sure the same thing will arise again when we play Poland in March and Everton are competing on several fronts. We're under enough pressure as it is without Martinez getting in McCarthy & Coleman's heads.

I can't understand why people said back in October that we were right to be diplomatic when dealing with Everton and take their word over McCarthy & Coleman's injuries, yet are now saying that it is down to our incompetence that we didn't dig our heels in and have them sent over for assessment.

Stoke allowed a player with a far more serious injury to link up with the Ireland squad, be assessed, respected his (and our) wishes; giving him every chance to participate in the game.

I wish there was more transparency on Everton's side.