Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

[paul_oshea]

No, because i live here, and i know what it symbolises, and that relates to my last point, you live in Ireland CD and read about it and what not, but don't really understand or have a clue yet you felt you could empathise with someone living in a country who wears it for whatever reasons, which we still dont know. Your point was nothing to do with symbols but understanding why someone living in a country would wear a poppy, thats how this all started!

My point hasnt changed CD, there may have been other offshoots, but its relative to what you posted originally. How is it completely understandable for someone to wear a poppy just because they live in the country where it's sold to support that countries armed forces, you never answered, just jumped back on an advanced original discussion now.

DI, if you took 10 people and showed them a picture, that picture might mean 7 different things for 7 people, and the same for 3. It means absoloutely nothing.

What Peadar was trying to say was that because I'm not backing up with wiki he wouldn't take any heed of my point. Thats his opinion and Im not too bothered about it, however he paints around it.

I'm also open to the point that I answer different posts at different times, not necessarily succintly either, because i dont have time to sit back and check over and formulate posts. I reply quickly so its probably a bit more confusing. I don't have time like you CD to quote on quote and all that crap :P Maybe to you becasue you cant understand it it comes across as nonsense

[Charlie Darwin]

No, because i live here, and i know what it symbolises

No, you live in England and you know what it symbolises to English people, although even so not everybody agrees. You're very correct that I live in a different country where the symbol has different connotations.

How is it completely understandable for someone to wear a poppy just because they live in the country where it's sold to support that countries armed forces

I said it's understandable that he doesn't see a reason not to wear a poppy. He didn't really elaborate on the "I live in England, etc" and I didn't push it, I just assumed he had his own reasons that were more nuanced than what he posted.

[Stuttgart88]

For what it's worth, I wouldn't wear one myself due to its negative connotations with regard to Ireland and Irish history. Stutts, for example, obviously feels it possesses different connotations to how I might view it. That's his prerogative as a free-thinking individual. I highly doubt he sports one to celebrate imperial warmongering, whilst that is part of the reason I wouldn't wear one; because my circumstances have resulted in me viewing it differently. Perhaps one aspect of his wearing of it is in memory of Irish lives lost during the World Wars rather than it amounting to some explicit support for the British Armed Forces.

Thanks Danny.

I'm here 14 years now. I started wearing one about 5 years ago. I felt it was more of a churlish statement not to wear one than it is a positive statement to wear one. If I lived in Ireland I probably wouldn't wear one. If I did I'd be making a strong message whereas here I think I'm simply making a passive gesture. (by here I mean London, not foot.ie!)

Most people wear them here without really over-thinking any of the potential political dimensions. Some UKIP heads and Tory nutjobs probably see it in a more malign sense.

The vast majority of people here that wear a poppy just see that historically British and other soldiers made great sacrifices to fend off totalitarianism or other badness. Of course, that's the nice explanation - WW1 was more about a land grab or a grab for influence and power when fault lines were fracturing in Europe and it was in the UK's interests to side with their allies. That doesn't matter though - kids were sent to a brutal death.

And of course many here were fed a diet of propaganda during The Troubles too. But still, at WW1 there was a tragic loss of young lives in a way that thank God none of our children will ever have to go through. Part of wearing a poppy is remembering that. I would say that my UK friends almost to a man - in fact including a soldier who served in NI - would agree that at Bloody Sunday and throughout the Troubles the army and their State acted terribly. But in light of the terror of the WW1 trenches and that so many kids are/were returning home from Afghanistan in boxes or missing limbs, whatever I feel about what happened in Ireland isn't enough for me not to show a little respect in the country I live in. If I lived in New York I wouldn't not take part in a passive mark of respect to those who died in the Twin Towers because of what the US did in Central and South America - which I happen to feel very strongly about.

The world is a messed up place. I can't think of any former colonist that hasn't got a dark past.

I think poppy wearing can be a little like football: generally pretty benign but gets hijacked for political expediency by some.

[tetsujin1979]

My evidence is my experience in life, more so than not. I live life as a realist rather than what ifs or what I've read. And generally it has done me well. But if you think reading books is the only way to learn, good luck to you, each to their own. It's kinda the Sarah Palin way of learning geography read some books on culture and customs and think you understand the whole world.

That's patently ridiculous, you're assuming that your interpretation of those experiences is correct, so anyone with a different viewpoint on the same experiences is wrong by default. The vast majority of learning is done through reading. Are you saying all of this is wrong, because the person involved didn't actively experience the Renaissance/American Revolution/World War II?

[DannyInvincible]

No, because i live here, and i know what it symbolises, and that relates to my last point, you live in Ireland CD and read about it and what not, but don't really understand or have a clue yet you felt you could empathise with someone living in a country who wears it for whatever reasons, which we still dont know. Your point was nothing to do with symbols but understanding why someone living in a country would wear a poppy, thats how this all started!

I live in England too, but what does that matter? I've seen all types of different people wearing poppies of late. Likewise, I've seen all types of different people not wearing poppies. There are a whole myriad of reasons as to why or why not, I'm sure. Aren't you the one, and not Charlie, jumping to judgment and conclusions? You think you know why everyone is wearing a poppy. Just because you might live near or amongst some wearers, and possibly may have spoken with some others, it doesn't give you any greater right to assume or insight into all wearers' motives.

How is it completely understandable for someone to wear a poppy just because they live in the country where it's sold to support that countries armed forces

Because it may have another meaning for that someone.

DI, if you took 10 people and showed them a picture, that picture might mean 7 different things for 7 people, and the same for 3. It means absoloutely nothing.

It means that a symbol can mean different things to different people, no?

What Peadar was trying to say was that because I'm not backing up with wiki he wouldn't take any heed of my point.

That's not quite what he said either.

[DannyInvincible]

I'm here 14 years now. I started wearing one about 5 years ago. I felt it was more of a churlish statement not to wear one than it is a positive statement to wear one. If I lived in Ireland I probably wouldn't wear one. If I did I'd be making a strong message whereas here I think I'm simply making a passive gesture. (by here I mean London, not foot.ie!)

Jesus, Stutts, next you'll be declaring for OWC!

[Stuttgart88]

Eff off!

[passinginterest]

I blame the bad spelling and grammar in the thread title for leading it so far off topic...

[DannyInvincible]

I blame the bad spelling and grammar in the thread title for leading it so far off topic...

Something nice and incendiary to get things back on topic: http://pogmogoal.com/the-blog-reel/g...ndwagon/15523/

Misery Merchants Back Aboard the Bandwagon

They’re calling them ‘Box-Office. The unveiling of Martin O’Neill and Roy Keane as Ireland’s new management has sparked a frenzy of interest in the home friendly with Latvia. Yet, if the duo weren’t in place next week, if there was no appointment, Irish ‘supporters’ would stay away in their droves. Billy Keane of Back-Post.com wonders if the Irish team would be better off without the event-junkies.

I never really liked Geography in school. Who really gives a sh*t about ox-bow lakes and flood plains and such things. My Geography teacher was a cardigan loving, socks and sandals wearing hippy with chalk dust billowing from his moustache whenever he spoke. I never quite took to him. I do remember a time when he stubbed his toe on the projector screen stand. That was funny. Serves him right for wearing sandals to work. Amidst the throbbing pain and fumbling, the projector stand collapsed on him pinching the skin between his thumb and forefinger and sent him into an alternate reality with the agony. I was on the floor laughing at this stage watching him change colour as he tried to keep his fury from erupting in a torrent of red hot expletives. Hilarious. He also did this annoying thing that teachers do when they say the first syllable of a word and encourage you to finish it. Vol-cano. That really annoyed me.

I refer to my old Geography past because I was recently struck by a time-faded image, in my minds eye, of ‘the water cycleʼ from lessons gone by while in the Aviva Stadium for the last game of the current qualifying campaign. You know the one. The sun heats up the surface of the sea, the water evaporates into the air and is carried by the wind, the water vapour cools and condenses and eventually falls back to earth as precipitation, it flows down the mountains in rivers and streams and makes its way back to the sea for the cycle to begin again. Most people are quite familiar with this cycle from living in Ireland where we get our fair share of rainfall during the year. Weʼre famous for it across the globe.

Science can explain this by examining the gulf stream, prevailing winds and cold fronts meeting warm fronts over Irelands mountains and valleys but they donʼt live here on a day to day basis so exactly how much weight you can give to these theories is up to each of us to decide. I for one am not completely sold on this sciencey, objective, evidence based hocus pocus but thatʼs just me.

“I have another theory that may have slipped through the net in the world of scientific research. I propose that Irelandʼs level of rainfall is pushed into the higher numbers by the condensation from the mouths of half of Irelandʼs football supporters.”

Itʼs a water vapour by-product from the bitching and moaning, criticizing and condemning, berating and whinging shower of misery merchants who show up to these qualifying games. Add to that the steam off the ****e that I hear from the vocal idiots at these games and Iʼm truly dumbfounded as to how Ireland doesnʼt have a monsoon season around international game weeks.

It came to a head for me in the Upper South Stand at the start of the Ireland/Kazakhstan game. The teams were lining up for the national anthems. I was in my seat and not a sinner within ten rows of me. Looking around with an uninterrupted view confirmed that the stadium was mostly empty seats. Less than half full. I felt sorry for the team to have to come out and play a competitive game in front such a sparse crowd. Every empty seat represented a gravy train bandwagonner that decided to stay home this time. These people are in every walk of life. I just didnʼt realize that there was such an amount of them in the Irish football crowd.

These people are not supporters. They are only interested in following success around and trying to claim part ownership of it. It doesnʼt cost them a thought to abandon a cause if things start to go tits up. They most likely ʻwere always interested in rugbyʼ when Irelandʼs rugby team were doing well and ʻhad been following the boxing for yearsʼ when Bernard Dunne was fighting for a world title and Katie Taylor was winning Olympic gold. Unfortunately itʼs these ****s that make the most noise. They can define what the general consensus is and alter the perceived mood of the football public. The level of criticism aimed at the Irish team and management by these ****s during the last campaign was nothing short of criminal. From the disgruntled numpties in the stands to the gentlemen’s club punditry on RTE, the efforts of both players and manager were torn to shreds in a storm of post match analysis and character assassination.

In the wake of Ireland’s performance in the Euros and the subsequent heavy defeat to Germany, the chorus of requests for Trapʼs head was embarrassing and bordered on betrayal. For a man who narrowly missed out on a World Cup place to a piece of blatant cheating in a playoff with France and successfully brought Ireland through the next qualifying campaign for the Euros to be marched on in this manner was shameful.

Trap was appointed to do a job. He did it how he saw fit. He was successful in doing that job. Not everyone agreed with the way he went about it, myself included, but I would not call for his sacking because he lost against the likes of Spain, Italy and Germany.

Expectations were inflated and distorted. Maybe it’s because of the golden generation of football fans who grew up with Jack Charltonʼs success and Mick McCarthyʼs World Cup heroics in Japan and South Korea. I am also of that generation so I understand what it’s like to experience an Ireland team competing on the world stage and holding their own against the best. It’s easy to yearn for those days and lament these ones but with a bit objectivity, the gulf in quality between the squads at Jack and Mickʼs disposal and players that Trap had is glaringly obvious. I only wish I had realized how spoilt I was at the time of the 1990 and 94 world cups and beyond.

It doesn’t sit well with me that Trap was dismissed in the manner in which he was. It gives the impression that his reign as Ireland manager was a failure when in reality it was roaring success. I felt as if the noisy nay-sayers bullied Trap out of the job. The animosity towards him was completely undeserved when in the cold light of day it was a miracle that Trap achieved a World Cup play-off place and Euro qualification with the worst Ireland team in living memory. This is not to disrespect the players. They give their all every time they pull on the jersey and I applaud them for it but the harsh reality is that they are just not good enough collectively or individually to compete at any sort of level. Thatʼs just the way it is at the moment.

Going back to that night at the Aviva, I stood for the national anthem with a bit of a knot in my stomach because of the lack of attendance. My Facebook friends will remember a bitter update accompanied by a picture of the empty stadium. However, that feeling wore off as the match got underway and another feeling gradually took itʼs place. As I looked around at the fans who had bothered to come to the game a few thoughts came to mind. I was glad that it was only the actual supporters here. I hadnʼt heard a whinging misery merchant since I arrived which was a nice change.

Maybe this is way forward. Let the ****s stay at home. They have no idea what it means to support the team anyway. They donʼt appreciate the effort and pride that these players represent when they go out on the pitch. The people here are the people who I want to sit with. The people here are the ones who stayed back after the Euro games to sing the team off the pitch regardless of the crushing defeats. The people here are the ones who are consistently voted the best supporters in the world is spite of the whinging contingent that stays at home. It occurred to me that I was happy to sit in a half empty stadium.

I propose that we reduce the capacity of the Aviva by half. Then it will never be a question of being half empty or half full. It will always be full. Full of real supporters.

A fair amount of bitterness there - a lot of it over-simplified and sanctimonious - but especially for the poor old Geography teacher!

[peadar1987]

Paul, that's not what I was saying, you attacked DI for citing wikipedia (or indeed, making any sort of citation). I prefer documented and reviewed evidence to anecdotal evidence when you're trying to make a rational argument, as the latter is incredibly subjective. You say you know all about the symbolism of the poppy from living in the UK and being immersed in the culture. Well Stutts lives here too, and he takes different symbolism from it. I live here as well, have an English parent and dual nationality, I have a different interpretation again.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeah, but I don't live in Dollis Hill like Paul does

[IsMiseSean]

Since ye're all talking about poppies. Ray Houghton is the first person I've seen on Sky Sports not wearing one this year.

[paul_oshea]

That's patently ridiculous, you're assuming that your interpretation of those experiences is correct, so anyone with a different viewpoint on the same experiences is wrong by default. The vast majority of learning is done through reading. Are you saying all of this is wrong, because the person involved didn't actively experience the Renaissance/American Revolution/World War II?

I read at college and learnt nothing, I worked for 2 years and learnt everything.

*Everything is relative to what i had been reading at college. I'm just saying that personally thats how I learn, I'm not saying if you learn through reading you don't learn, but definitely experiencing something learns you better, again in my opinion, than reading. Give me practical over theoretical anyday.

Stutts you could have saved a lot of needless posts had you said that earlier

Peadar I know your father is english and you live there, apologies I thought it was a veiled attempt to discredit my posts.

From personal experience the people I work with aren't the people I mix with. I meet people from all walks of life through various avenues, wrt to the poppy I'd say I've seen a lot of it.

DI, in Manchester would you see many South Asians wearing the poppy, be objective, bar maybe nepalese I mean?

[Charlie Darwin]

The one thing you don't seem to have learned is that your experience is not universal.

[peadar1987]

I see your point Paul, but citing stuff isn't really a conflict between practical and theoretical. Wikipedia is under constant review, and the people who edit the articles about the symbolism of the Celtic cross, for example, will be people who have experience, or at least have carried out research, into far-right culture. I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about with regard to the poppy, clearly you do, even if I don't agree with your interpretations, but anyone can say whatever they want about their own subjective experiences. Giving sources and citations outside of that does give extra weight to what you're saying.