Player eligibility row

[Gather round]

But there is a difference and why I keep bringing it up is that it is central - or should be central - to this thread

Almost everyone on this thread, including me, agrees it's fine for people from Northern Ireland to play for the Republic's football teams. The thread has gone off at an extended tangent mainly because you and others just keep repeating that other Irish people are less or not at all Irish. When basic observaton suggests the contrary.

But when it comes to football, their allegiance to 'the south' is often viewed as an allegiance to a foreign country

See immediately above and ad nauseam similarly up-thread and elesewhere. I've no problem with people from Northern Ireland supporting the Republic's football teams, or perhaps more importantly identifying with it overall. Of course I regard the Republic as a foreign country, but I don't feel any need to assume from that, that nationalists in NI are therefore foreigners. If they see themselves thus, that's fine.

Again you might have your Irish identity but I don't think that applies to most unionists

The main evidence that you (plural) use for this is basically opinion surveys where respondents tend to be offered a deliberately limited choice of identities. British, Irish or Northern Irish. Largely because of the loaded question, unionists tend to equate 'Irish' (as opposed to 'Northern Irish') with 'Republic of Irish', and thus to reject it. But it would silly to assume from this that they don't feel at all Irish. You don't see the word 'Ireland' painted over in graffiti in unionist areas, to take an equally silly example.

Why did James Craig etc. take such offence at the former Article 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution, if their Irishness meant so much to them?

Most unionists were irritated by Articles 2 and 3 because they were both a) aggressively seeking to force us from our own country into another, yet b) dishonest to the point of absurdity. The Republic of Ireland has done basically done nothing since 1948 to try to re-integrate the national territory. Mainly because they know a significant population- probably a majority- would sh*t themselves if it ever became more than a notional possibility.

Once again any Irish identity - usually dressed up as Ulster identity which may well be Irish but is hardly encompassing the island - is secondary to Britishness

We may be getting somewhere if you at least acknowledge Ulster may be Irish. It doesn't have to encompass the whole island to be Irish, any more than a Corkman's does. It doesn't have to be secondary to Britishness, although it can be. How many times?

When I was at school, the royalty was universally detested by my classmates, and this was a state school. Could you tell me you had the same experience?

No, most of my schoolmates just accepted, as their elders did, that Britain was a monarchy because that suited a large majority of the population. There was more agitation/ political support to end it when Victoria was having it off with her gamekeeper in the 1860s.

There are no overt displays of 'loyalism' for most of England

There are no Orange carnivals any more. But that's only one exaggerated form of support for the monarchy. There are plenty of others, and because of their popularity there's no likelihood of a Republic of Britain in the near future. A shame, from my point of view, but there you go.

My own 'keeness' on the royals as head of state stem more from keeping Thatch and Bliar out than keepioing a bunch of scroungers in big houses

Interesting idea. You tactically voted for a monarchy to keep Maggie and Tony out? Maybe a new strategy's needed, last time I looked the pair of them and their immediate successors ran an effectively presidential-style government for 30 years?

I expect a forty-something of any part of Western Europe to at least know, from forty years of television coverage, that quite a large part of the population of the 6C see their country, their capital, and their nationality as Ireland, and not to ask me such a idiotic question

Sorry, that's just unrealistic. Even people in Belfast recognise they aren't a crucial Europe-wide news story any more, and haven't been since the 1990s. Further afield people just aren't likely to know/ care. Your exaggerated outrage might be justified if the woman was a journalist doing a feature on the lovable craicster tourists, but if she was just someone you met in a pub or cafe, it's over the top. Locals don't have to research what tourists do and think; the convention surely should be the other way round?

[Mr_Parker]

Saw this article from yesterday's Belfast Telegraph. Very unusual for the Telegraph to have opinions that would not toe the usual unionist line, in this case eligibility.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/op...-14889070.html

It is written by a columnist. Unfortunately most of the journalists on the paper still don't get it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Leaving to one side the largely pointless waffle or patronising twaddle, would however highlight this one point worthy of reply.

I've no problem distinguishing.
How can you impose your Irish identity on me? I already have an Irish identity.

Hmm, clearly you do.
Except that a majority of your unionist contemporaries dont agree with you, a point you still seem difficult to acknowledge.
Similarly you've failed to explain what happened to your new-diluted 'Britishness', or are you still insisting on the farcical 200% (and counting) 'logic' ??

Again you might have your Irish identity but I don't think that applies to most unionists. Once again any Irish identity - usually dressed up as Ulster identity which may well be Irish but is hardly encompassing the island - is secondary to Britishness.

Absolutely spot on. Sums up the unionists in the North to a tee.

The thread has gone off at an extended tangent mainly because you and others just keep repeating that other Irish people are less or not at all Irish. When basic observaton suggests the contrary.

The main evidence that you (plural) use for this is basically opinion surveys where respondents tend to be offered a deliberately limited choice of identities. British, Irish or Northern Irish. Largely because of the loaded question, unionists tend to equate 'Irish' (as opposed to 'Northern Irish') with 'Republic of Irish', and thus to reject it. But it would silly to assume from this that they don't feel at all Irish. You don't see the word 'Ireland' painted over in graffiti in unionist areas, to take an equally silly example.

Well, er, No. You just don't like the results.
Lol.

Unionists when presented with those choices (What others could they have had??), are quite comfortable as a majority in consistently saying they're primarily British. As Senor Lopez has so astutely identified its type.

To be fair to our paranoid friends, the numbers saying this are slowly declining, but not slowly enough!

And if you were looking for a reason, despite the exaggerated way in which it was phrased, indicative of their usual insecurities, it was, according to you, because of.....

Most unionists were irritated by Articles 2 and 3 because they were both a) aggressively seeking to force us from our own country into another, yet b) dishonest to the point of absurdity. The Republic of Ireland has done basically done nothing since 1948 to try to re-integrate the national territory. Mainly because they know a significant population- probably a majority- would sh*t themselves if it ever became more than a notional possibility.

Though the last line is clearly nonsense, unless you have a crystal ball?

We may be getting somewhere if you at least acknowledge Ulster may be Irish. It doesn't have to encompass the whole island to be Irish, any more than a Corkman's does. It doesn't have to be secondary to Britishness, although it can be. How many times?

Hmm. Waffle or twaddle, you decide?

No, most of my schoolmates just accepted, as their elders did, that Britain was a monarchy because that suited a large majority of the population.

Surely as aspiring unionists it was the least that would be expected of them.....

There are no Orange carnivals any more.

So those fools in bowler hats marching and bonfires are just an illusion then? Yeah, right.

[Gather round]

Except that a majority of your unionist contemporaries dont agree with you, a point you still seem difficult to acknowledge

I've no difficulty acknowledging anything. Where I disagree I explain why. Do you think anything that a majority of unionists agree on is automatically right?

Similarly you've failed to explain what happened to your new-diluted 'Britishness', or are you still insisting on the farcical 200% (and counting) 'logic' ??

I remain 100% British, as I always have been. Nothing is diluted. I'm not claiming to be 200% of naything, nor is that implicit anywhere.

Unionists when presented with those choices (What others could they have had??), are quite comfortable as a majority in consistently saying they're primarily British

They could have had the choice you're so keen to deny them, ie to be British and Irish in any combination they fancy. I've no problem with some of them feeling primarily British.

Though the last line is clearly nonsense, unless you have a crystal ball?

No. Don't need one to see into the past, their intentions over decades could be quite clearly identified from their actions.

Surely as aspiring unionists it was the least that would be expected of them.....

Are you quite mad? No-one forces anyone, at school, or otherwise, to be a unionist or support the monarchy. Most 15 years in Britain support the Monarchy basically because most 45 and 75 year olds do, and there's litle sign of that changing.

So those fools in bowler hats marching and bonfires are just an illusion then? Yeah, right

Yes, in England they are, pretty much. I was answering Lopez's specific point, which you seem to have either missed or failed to understand.

[Stuttgart88]

Surely the only person who can judge if GR is 100% Irish or not is GR himself. Personally I’m really glad to hear that’s how he sees himself, alongside his Britishness. I think it’d be churlish of a unionist to say he’s British but not Irish.

I remember David Trimble being put on the spot over a decade ago, possibly on the Late Late Show. He was asked how he would classify himself if asked by a local while was holidaying abroad. His response was something along the lines of “I’m from that part of the United Kingdom called Northern Ireland” which I thought was a really cumbersome way of avoiding calling himself British, Northern Irish, or Irish.

Anyway, my childhood maths lessons when we learnt about Venn diagrams spring to mind.

[superfrank]

Owned by Tony O'Reilly isn't it?

You mean Sir Tony O'Reilly?

[lopez]

Almost everyone on this thread, including me, agrees it's fine for people from Northern Ireland to play for the Republic's football teams. The thread has gone off at an extended tangent mainly because you and others just keep repeating that other Irish people are less or not at all Irish. When basic observaton suggests the contrary.

You might and the majority here does too but that's not the case with most Northern fans or the IFA. FIFA have said that the players can choose which team in Ireland they want to play for. If this is about the right to choose, surely that's been sorted.

Most unionists were irritated by Articles 2 and 3 because they were both a) aggressively seeking to force us from our own country into another, yet b) dishonest to the point of absurdity. The Republic of Ireland has done basically done nothing since 1948 to try to re-integrate the national territory. Mainly because they know a significant population- probably a majority- would sh*t themselves if it ever became more than a notional possibility.

The people spoke at the 1918 election. A plebiscite was never granted. The whole of Ireland joined the union in one piece. Surely it's not unreasonable to see what the majority of the whole of Ireland wanted. As for the emotive words, what utter b*llsh*t. And I like the snide remark suggesting the 'republic' never having the bottle to take on the British. That really makes me laugh from someone where violence has been so key to change in the past four decades. Britain lost 26 counties of its country not because it was feeling generous. It would have lost another six had the most of the people in that area decided they wanted to be Irish first.

We may be getting somewhere if you at least acknowledge Ulster may be Irish. It doesn't have to encompass the whole island to be Irish, any more than a Corkman's does. It doesn't have to be secondary to Britishness, although it can be. How many times?

Ulster is indeed Irish. It has nine counties. This Ulster identity is primarily British based in Ireland, a sort of dog culture surviving in the manger.

No, most of my schoolmates just accepted, as their elders did, that Britain was a monarchy because that suited a large majority of the population. There was more agitation/ political support to end it when Victoria was having it off with her gamekeeper in the 1860s.

Is that the best example you can give for general p*ssedoffness with the royals where you're from?

Interesting idea. You tactically voted for a monarchy to keep Maggie and Tony out? Maybe a new strategy's needed, last time I looked the pair of them and their immediate successors ran an effectively presidential-style government for 30 years?

I haven't voted for anything regarding the monarchy, and as you know having Maggie and Tone would have little power in a republic like Ireland or Germany. Not that they wouldn't wanting to stick their nose in. I just don't want to lick their backside every time I want to post a letter.

Sorry, that's just unrealistic. Even people in Belfast recognise they aren't a crucial Europe-wide news story any more, and haven't been since the 1990s. Further afield people just aren't likely to know/ care. Your exaggerated outrage might be justified if the woman was a journalist doing a feature on the lovable craicster tourists, but if she was just someone you met in a pub or cafe, it's over the top. Locals don't have to research what tourists do and think; the convention surely should be the other way round?

Really? Crucial stories when things happen like the occasional CIRA bombing. And someone in their forties would have forgotten all about Ireland from the seventies to the nineties? Yeah whatever?

[ArdeeBhoy]

I've no difficulty acknowledging anything.
Do you think anything that a majority of unionists agree on is automatically right?

Hmm, except that you are out of step with a large majority of your own community who see themselves otherwise.
Whilst I'd sort of like them to all acknowledge their 'Irishness', somehow I don't think they're going to be especially obliging or quick in this respect.

I remain 100% British, as I always have been. Nothing is diluted. I'm not claiming to be 200% of naything, nor is that implicit anywhere.
They could have had the choice you're so keen to deny them, ie to be British and Irish in any combination they fancy. I've no problem with some of them feeling primarily British.

Yawn. So today you're not Irish??

As for the community at large, would have no great urge to deny the unionists anything apart from their usual control-freakery.
That withstanding, as repeatedly mentioned, there's been no headlong rush by them to acknowledge their right to Irish citizenship or even to the slighest degree, barely recognise any other aspect of Irishness except to acknowledge the name 'Northern Ireland'.

This is confirmed by the IFA who insist on pandering to a unionist audience by using a British flag and anthem, both of which are barely acknowledged in other parts of that state, FFS.
Despite the laudable aim of FFA, which must be a charade in this context. And claiming that the whole community clamour to support what is now a divisive team.

Don't need one to see into the past, their intentions over decades could be quite clearly identified from their actions.

Eh? Crystal balls, metaphorical or otherwise are used to look into, er, the future. Only you would draw something from the past!!

Are you quite mad? No-one forces anyone, at school, or otherwise, to be a unionist or support the monarchy.

Hmm. I use the word 'expected' and you say 'forced'.

Draw your own conclusions on interpretation or of relative sanity!!!
Or lack of.

Yes, in England they are, pretty much.

Er, No. There are 23 actually happened/planned Orange marches in England this year. Shame on you!

I remember David Trimble being put on the spot over a decade ago, possibly on the Late Late Show. He was asked how he would classify himself if asked by a local while was holidaying abroad. His response was something along the lines of " I'm from that part of the United Kingdom called Northern Ireland" which I thought was a really cumbersome way of avoiding calling himself British, Northern Irish, or Irish.

Anyway, my childhood maths lessons when we learnt about Venn diagrams spring to mind.

Trimble's response even now, would certainly be atypical of his generation;the only hope is for younger generations of nominal unionists, possibly.
See the point above re.unionists wanting largely to be seen as British


As for Venn diagrams, in this case, it would be the largest circle you ever could imagine, typically with the figure '1' inside to represent a certain person!!!

[The Fly]

I felt that I must inform you all of an incredible accolade that has been bestowed upon me.

A thread has been closed, and pinned, in my honour, in the Football Apartheid in Ireland sub-section of the Our Wee Country forum website.

It has been entitled - "Fly educates da North."


Don't feel obliged to congratulate me all at once!

[Sullivinho]

A thread has been closed, and pinned, in my honour, in the Football Apartheid in Ireland sub-section of the Our Wee Country forum website.

That's too bad.

However, this thread here remains open for any bright academic wishing to further their education.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I felt that I must inform you all of an incredible accolade that has been bestowed upon me.

A thread has been closed, and pinned, in my honour, in the Football Apartheid in Ireland sub-section of the Our Wee Country forum website.

It has been entitled - "Fly educates da North."


Don't feel obliged to congratulate me all at once!

Well you and, especially the Predator (who I'd say just deserves the accolade, over a long hard season etc.) have fought the good fight in the face of irrationality, even our 'friends' on here, would sometimes struggle to match.
That said, got bored of reading the sh*te on on there which makes this thread look like 'knockabout stuff' (and the temptation to post was just too much!)....

[Gather round]

If this is about the right to choose, surely that's been sorted

Indeed. But what has that to do with me pointing out that I'm as Irish as anyone, then you and others repeatedly denying it contrary to all evidence?

The people spoke at the 1918 election

I thought you were talking about Articles 2 and 3, which didn't appear for decades after 1918. You asked why unionists didn't accept them, I answered.

As for the emotive words, what utter b*llsh*t

Getting a bit emotive, are we?

And I like the snide remark suggesting the 'republic' never having the bottle to take on the British. That really makes me laugh from someone where violence has been so key to change in the past four decades

I think you're the one obsessed by violence, compadre. I was clearly suggesting (repeating what I've said through this and similar threads) that the Republic had done nothing to negotiate a united Ireland. Nor even, on a much smaller scale, to move the border slightly so that say Derry Cityside and Newry (both of which have had an 85-90% nationalist majority for decades) would be on the right side. They didn't do it because they never had any intention of it, broadly for the reason I described.

Ulster is indeed Irish. It has nine counties. This Ulster identity is primarily British based in Ireland, a sort of dog culture surviving in the manger

Charming analogy. Getting in one of your favorite snide digs?

Is that the best example you can give for general p*ssedoffness with the royals where you're from?

Er, you asked me for basically the opposite, I answered. Most people at my school, like most people in Britain generally, support the monarchy.

as you know having Maggie and Tone would have little power in a republic like Ireland or Germany. Not that they wouldn't wanting to stick their nose in. I just don't want to lick their backside every time I want to post a letter

Relax. If we get an elected presidente here in your lifetime or mine, given the powerless ceremonial of the job it's more likely to be someone relatively juniot or on the fringe of politics. Like McAleese or Mary-Mary Robinson. Or maybe a sleb, Stephen Fry or someone like that.

And someone in their forties would have forgotten all about Ireland from the seventies to the nineties? Yeah whatever?

Get real, amigo. They probably weren't that interested in it when it was a news story. So they'll be less interested in it 12 or 15 years on.

Er, No. There are 23 actually happened/planned Orange marches in England this year. Shame on you!

I stand corrected. It's hardly shameful on me. I was agreeing with Lopez's point that there's little support for the Orange Order in England; the low figure- much lower than in the past- basically supports it.

[ArdeeBhoy]

More pompous claptrap.
And issue avoidance.

[dantheman]

That's too bad.

However, this thread here remains open for any bright academic wishing to further their education.

Great quote on OWC, by someone called Eamonn an Chnoic. He asked why the Republic were called the beggars, suggests the nickname the Academy for the North :

They begged for every English and Scottish player they could find in the 1980s (whether they were Irish or not) to play for them.
(two of their most famous victories were against England 1-0 - 1988 and Italy 1-0 - 1994. Both winners were scored by a Scottish player who was a successful result of the "beggar" system)
They begged for countless Northern Irish youngsters to switch allegiance to them.
They begged a linesman to let John Alridge come on as a sub in 1994 v Mexico.
They begged for better facilities at some World Cup, or at least Roy "Beggar" Keane did.
They begged for a replay because of a handball by a French player in a World Cup qualifier in 2009 (We didnt see England, or USSR begging for replays following Maradona's 2 handballs).

They're still begging for more Northern Irish players, players who were not born in the 26 counties and have no link to ROI through family or birthplace and therefore shouldnt qualify.
They're begging to know why they are called Beggars.

and even worse...they had no food so they begged on the streets of Belfast for a loaf of veda.

I have a feeling you wont agree, in fact you may "beg" to differ.

Tony Kane is magic.

Hilarious
Are you painting an entire country with one brush or just the FAI?

If ray houghton was eligible and wanted to play, who cares? I think his decision to join the ROI team was clearly the correct decision for him?

I don't think the ROI supporters have a nickname for the North. Well possibly the "north"

Very original

Maybe you could start calling us "The "Gentlemen......

The Academy" ha... That's a joke ok?

Maybe the IFA shoud be renamed IFAS or the Irish FAS, a training scheme for young Irsh international players?

[ArdeeBhoy]

Bitter Fex would be more apt for that shower....

Or in a certain case, 'B. & I.' allegedly, as if.