Player eligibility row

[Nedser]

You want me to provide evidence of something that does not happen?

I want you to provide evidence that the process is as you have so definitively stated it is. You must have some way of "knowing" this, so tell us what your belief is based on. It's a fairly simple concept.

The closest you get is when players are required to prove their identity, not their nationality, to the match delegate as per match regulations. FIFA require a passport for this purpose. However, that does not need to be the passport relating to the particular country you are playing for as confirmed by FIFA in 2006 following the Irish Governments intervention when the IFA tried to force NI players to carry British Passports.

Again until you can provide a source for your claim that FIFA only want proof of identity and not nationality, then it's just another opinion. I believe that the general position is that you have to have a passport from the country that you want to represent. Again though, they have to make exceptions for NI, not least because NI is not a country and therefore doesn't issue passports, so it would be impossible for FIFA to apply the same requirement to them. My understanding is that FIFA initially (and not unreasonably) took the view that anyone playing for a UK national team should have a UK passport, but the Irish govt then pointed out that the unusual constitutional position in NI means that being born there does not mean you are a British subject or have to hold a British passport, and since the GFA people from NI are equally entitled to Irish citizenship (and passports).

[Mr_Parker]

I want you to provide evidence that the process is as you have so definitively stated it is. You must have some way of "knowing" this, so tell us what your belief is based on. It's a fairly simple concept.

All you need is here.

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/docume...ary/index.html

[lopez]

Cheers, lopez. Interesting post. Is there any precedent for this internationally that you know of though; the calling up of players born outside the jurisdiction with no immediate link to that territory through parentage or grand-parentage other than a citizenship awarded extra-territorially? Not saying there ought to be to justify the calling-up of northern-born players as Northern Ireland's constitutional status is a very rare one, if not internationally unique, but in the minds of FIFA, it might compound that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Another interesting factor I note is that the examples you mention seem to deal with the awarding of citizenship based on ethnicity ('jus sanguinis'). Irish citizenship awarded to those from the north is slightly different though, to the best of my rather limited constitutional knowledge. It is primarily awarded 'jus soli' or by birthright (although I'm aware that the 27th constitutional amendment modified this slightly a few years ago). In effect, though, an Ulster Protestant of, say, Scottish descent or ethnicity by a few generations, or whatever you want to call it, qualifies for Irish citizenship by his birth on the island, if he'd so wish to accept such an honour, of course. :P Could an ethnic Estonian, say, with no apparent Russian ancestry be granted Russian citizenship by virtue of being born in Estonia, or does the Russian government merely offer citizenship to those who can prove Russian ethnicity beyond even their grandparents?

With regards to Russia and Serbia, these are officially multi-ethnic states, so the choice of Jus Sanguinis as a basis for ethnicity is perhaps a step too far. Certainly I can't see that an Estonian born the other side of the border would be denied citizenship. This was not the case with Germany (and Austria and Switzerland) who based citizenship on Jus Sanguinis.

With regards to Ireland, it is a policy that nationality is devoid of ethnicity and religion. It has always been the case for that because of the Protestants that have aided independence. Look at the Protestants with English or Scottish names that have played prominent roles in Irish nationalism. I've been reading about the Clan na Gael in the states in the 1800s and even one of John Devoy's closest chums was a Presbyterian. Then there is the story of one of Paisley's mates in the seventies apparently 'going native' without converting to the whore of Rome. (I can find the names of both these for later). Any basis of Irish citizenship on ethnic origins or religion would therefore be repugnant. Which brings us back to football. One argument is that the FAI is approaching without being solicitated, nationalist youths in the North. OK, if someone is called Seamus O Laoghaire, then fair enough. But Darren Gibson? How would the FAI come to the conclusion that he was 'game' with a name like that?

[ArdeeBhoy]

And let's be honest, there are varying reasons for moving to the RoI side that are well known: English guys wouldn't get in their side, Gibson and McGeady were unhappy at having to give up a club trial for a Scotland or NI representative game and so on..

Except with the exception of Paul Butler (ex-Wolves, Leeds, Oldham), who qualified by marriage, no-one who's not eligible for a passport (or team) via the usual family links has ever played for Ireland, AFAIK. Unlike a Herr.M.Taylor.....
And virtually no-one in Ireland refers to it, except in the occasional misguided sporting context , as The 'Republic', FFS.

[Nedser]

All you need is here.

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/docume...ary/index.html

Any chance you could be slightly more precise than providing a link to every official document published by FIFA?

[tetsujin1979]

from the "Guidelines for FIFA Match Officials" http://pt.fifa.com/mm/document/tourn...s_en_38398.pdf
page 8

4. UPON ARRIVAL AT THE MATCH VENUE
As soon as he arrives, the commissioner shall fi x times with the host association for
the following formalities:
1. Verification of the players’ identity
2. Inspection of the stadium
3. Official meeting

4.1. Verification of the Players’ Identities
When checking the players’ identities against their passports, passport numbers (and players’ licences, if necessary) at the teams’ hotels, the commissioner shall make sure that:
– apart from himself, the only persons allowed into the room are the players themselves, the head of delegation, the head of administration, the president of the association (if he wishes), a representative from the other team’s delegation (if he wishes), the assistant to the commissioner and the delegation’s interpreter;
– the players who are entitled to take part in the match shall take turns to show their passports (and players’ licences, if any) for verifi cation. Should a player not be in possession of a passport, or if it has expired or has obviously been tampered with, he shall not be allowed to take part in the match. Identity cards or other similar documents cannot be used as a replacement for a passport. This decision is final.

You must present a valid passport to the referee before the game.

[yapster]

I am appalled and saddened that some on here advocate foreign born players with dubious Irish ancestry playing for Ireland over Irish born & bred players playing for Ireland. Priorities must be re-examined on this...

[geysir]

from the "Guidelines for FIFA Match Officials" http://pt.fifa.com/mm/document/tourn...s_en_38398.pdf
page 8

You must present a valid passport to the referee before the game.

As a proof of identity, just as Mr.P wrote.

[lopez]

I am appalled and saddened that some on here advocate foreign born players with dubious Irish ancestry playing for Ireland over Irish born & bred players playing for Ireland. Priorities must be re-examined on this...

Where do you think Belfast and Derry are? China?

[ArdeeBhoy]

To be fair Senor, think he was being ironic?

And response re.Tuesday noted.

[holidaysong]

AFAIK, Ireland is the only country in the world whose international football team has to be different to the name of the state.

The Republic of China are known as Chinese Taipei by FIFA.

(link)

[Nedser]

The Republic of China are known as Chinese Taipei by FIFA.

(link)

Fair point, but again because of political pressure from a powerful country (China in this case), rather than because of a need to avoid confusion between two teams of similar names.

[Nedser]

As a proof of identity, just as Mr.P wrote.

True, but I notice that particular excerpt is entitled "Verification of the Players’ Identities" - is there by any chance a separate section regarding verifying players' eligibility for a team? It's very curious that they insist on a passport rather than some other government-issued ID document, e.g. Driving Licence. Generally speaking, you only need to produce a passport when you have to prove your nationality as well as identity.

Anyway, the fact remains that Tony Cascarino claims he had to get an Irish passport or would no longer be eligible, and even Mr Parker mentioned that FIFA were trying to insist the NI players hold British passports a few years ago. As such, even though it's not stated in that particular rule, there is evidence that FIFA have used passports to verify players' nationality. And common sense alone will tell you that FIFA would require some sort of proof of nationality, I simply don't believe they just make the assumption that players are eligible unless someone objects.

[tetsujin1979]

True, but I notice that particular excerpt is entitled "Verification of the Players’ Identities" - is there by any chance a separate section regarding verifying players' eligibility for a team?

Possibly, I only did a brief search

And common sense alone will tell you that FIFA would require some sort of proof of nationality, I simply don't believe they just make the assumption that players are eligible unless someone objects.

They did bring in some ruling when Qatar started handing out passports to Brazilians playing in the national league, also if they just made the assumption a player was eligible, Franck Quedrue and Anthony Gerrard would probably have been capped

[geysir]

True, but I notice that particular excerpt is entitled "Verification of the Players’ Identities" - is there by any chance a separate section regarding verifying players' eligibility for a team? It's very curious that they insist on a passport rather than some other government-issued ID document, e.g. Driving Licence. Generally speaking, you only need to produce a passport when you have to prove your nationality as well as identity.

There is a separate section dealing with eligibility, the much debated eligibility statutes
Re the passport id thing, either FIFA gave out the instruction that the player must produce the passport of the team he is playing for, or the IFA instructed (or both) that their players must have a UK passport. Either way FIFA adjusted to the Irish situation to accept that a player can have the "wrong" passport and still be fully eligible.
Remember, a passport is not proof of eligibility. The federation have to be responsible for eligibility.

Anyway, the fact remains that Tony Cascarino claims he had to get an Irish passport or would no longer be eligible, and even Mr Parker mentioned that FIFA were trying to insist the NI players hold British passports a few years ago. As such, even though it's not stated in that particular rule, there is evidence that FIFA have used passports to verify players' nationality. And common sense alone will tell you that FIFA would require some sort of proof of nationality, I simply don't believe they just make the assumption that players are eligible unless someone objects

Cas was not eligible until he became a citizen. NI born are already citizens.
Cas acquired an Irish nationality and maybe it is understood or required that he should have successfully obtained an Irish passport as proof of his acquired nationality.
Probably seeing as there are different hurdles (depending on connection to Ireland) that a foreign born person has to go through in order to qualify for citizenship.
A certificate of citizenship is the minimalist proof of having obtained citizenship.