Player eligibility row

[co. down green]

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.

[dr_peepee]

Paul Kee, who coached Gibson at Maiden City Soccer, a feeder club for Institute FC, and now manages the Northern Ireland under-17 team, said in December 2009: “We have to basically provide a service from which young players feel they will get something back and hopefully they will have the desire to play for Northern Ireland. It’s an issue we have to keep working at though, although if a young player feels a stronger affinity to the Republic of Ireland then that’s the way it is. Darron and his family made a choice at the time although the circumstances behind it appear to be that he had a chance to go on trial with [Manchester] United and he was then left out of an IFA team as a result. Darron and his parents had to think about his career and they took his talents to the Republic of Ireland.”

From that article in Soccer Republic

That's the line of thinking the IFA should be taking in my opinion. Might prove more productive in the long run than the current sniping at FIFA & FAI.

[Predator]

From that article in Soccer Republic

That's the line of thinking the IFA should be taking in my opinion. Might prove more productive in the long run than the current sniping at FIFA & FAI.

Paul Kee is a good sensible guy. He used to run a coaching 'school' during the summer in Derry.

[dr_peepee]

Paul Kee is a good sensible guy. He used to run a coaching 'school' during the summer in Derry.

Seems to be alright...

Why d'ye have 'School' in inverted coma's though? Makes it look real sinister!!

[Predator]

Seems to be alright...

Why d'ye have 'School' in inverted coma's though? Makes it look real sinister!!

Ha, it was just like a Soccer School type thing. Was great for kids, but I remember it being fairly expensive. Although I could be mistaken.

[ifk101]

Is that the same Paul Kee who was the NI goalie when we tanked them 4-0 in Windsor back in the mid-90s?

[Predator]

Don't think so, but I could be wrong.

[dantheman]

Is that the same Paul Kee who was the NI goalie when we tanked them 4-0 in Windsor back in the mid-90s?

No different lad. Ironically the other Paul Kee had a very giid game against Austria in the previous match, NI's last significant away win

[geysir]

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.

I never said that players were not eligible before the GFA.

IMO the introduction of automatic citizenship into the GFA had a definite bearing on how FIFA reviewed the eligibility issue in 2007/8 after the IFA made their official protest.


.

[Drumcondra 69er]

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.

Exactly. As far as I know the gentleman's agreement was originally disbanded at a stage when Nationlists playing for the North were being given significant stick (around the time Lennon's abuse picked up?). The game in 93 at Windsor may have had some bearing in FAI circles. Was Kerr the first underage manager to pick youngsters born in the 6 counties?

As as been said passports were available for all born on the island since independence for the 26 and prior to the GFA a passport was all FIFA required (see Luis Olivera for example, a brazillian with no belgian blood knocking us out in the 98 play off).

[geysir]

Thats not how it played out with our situation. Passports can be acquired by many different means, automatic citizenship is a different matter and falls under article 15.
Because of the citizenship laws of the Republic before the GFA, Northern Irish born did not have to fulfill any of the requirements laid down in the other statutes - residency requirements or blood ties to the Republic, in order to qualify for the FAI. But it was not an automatic citizenship. They had to apply for citizenship as part of the passport application.
The GFA changed that and the citizenship rights were the same for all born on the Island.
Both Blatter and the legal head referred to that sameness of the citizenship rights as justification when they were called upon to give a reason why they supported the rights of all Ireland born to play for the FAI when it was challenged by the IFA.
And that those same GFA agreement was accepted both North and South.
If you don't see this, I would think you are missing a sizable part of the reason why FIFA rewrote that artice 15 in the way they did.

[Mr_Parker]

Yes, but you have to prove your nationality, and the standard way of doing so is with a passport. Another way would be a birth cert, but showing birth cert proving you were born in Belfast would not in itself be likey to satisfy FIFA that your nationality lies with ROI.

I think most of the rest of your post has already been dealt with and anyway I don't have much time at the moment, but I will answer the above. Players do not have to prove their nationality by producing any document to satisy FIFA in order to play for a country. There is no such requirement.

[Gather round]

Would it be fair to assume that the passing of the GFA had a bearing on the FAI's willingness to by-pass this "gentleman's agreement" in that the British government along with the population in Northern Ireland formally agreed that all those born on the island were entitled to Irish citizenship, whereas they hadn't previously, which would have made such an action as the FAI calling a northern-born player up appear hostile and somewhat irredentist with a flagrant disregard for what was then still under dispute as far as international relations were concerned?

Maybe. But of course the FAI's priority isn't to manage irredentism in international relations, it's to get more players (largely from outside the country) for their football team.

Can I just state that the flag and the anthem of Northern Ireland are not an issue at all and anybody who says it is is likely talking ******. It is the fact that there is a Northern Ireland, I have absolutely no allegiance to that state nor would ever describe myself as Northern Irish - the flag and the anthem issue is a total red herring

Fair enough. I wouldn't dismiss everyone who disagrees quite so airily, but clearly changing those symbols would have no effect on a lot of people's thinking.

Because of the circumstances on our unfortunately divided Island

Speak for yourself

it is my belief that any Irish Man north or South should play for the team of their choosing

The issue is whether it's reasonable for them to play for both.

Kind of crazy to have supported the RoI team all of your life and if you have the desire and ability not to be able to play for them. The same also holds for NI

See immediately above.

My only suggestion for change would be that an Under 21 competitive cap ties you to that country and not let the topsy turvy scenarios we are left with under the current rules

Good man, there's a basis for negotiations to a compromise.

The special dispensation to the 4 UK teams to field international teams despite not being independent countries really muddies the waters in any debate of this sort. Someone previously implied that ROI has a special advantage here - on the contrary it's the 4 "home nations" that do

I don't think it does muddy the waters. The issue is whether it's reasonable for someone to play for two different teams. You could apply it anywhere (the reason FIFA changed their rules was under pressure from French-speaking countries in North and West Africa who wanted to be able to pick the children or grandchildren of expats who'd already played for underage international sides in France.

Britain's dispensation (which isn't unique, the Faroe Islands for example isn't a sovereign country) simply follows from us 'inventing' international football in the 19th. RoI doesn't have an advantage so much as an unusual* system of offering citizenship to people outside the country (* no criticism of this implied).

No apologies for using "Ireland" in this context as that's what the state is called, ROI was a FIFA invented name for the football team

FIFA- quite reasonably- uses the name RoI to avoid confusion, since its members include the two international teams in Ireland. They didn't invent the name- when I lived in Dublin people often referred to the country as the Republic, although I realise this is less so now.

AFAIK, the only qualification for schoolboy representation is where you go to school (there is a distinction between the U18 schoolboy team and the U18 national team). So Kernaghan qualified for NI schoolboys by virtue of the fact that he went to school there, in the same way Ryan Giggs played for England schoolboys, but was never eligible for the England national team

I think this may have changed recently- the Welsh schools team(s) include(s) players at school outside the country, but who are nationally-qualified to play for its youth sides.

IMO any player born in northern ireland is the same as the south. were all irish. i dont care if the IFA are annoyed about it. as far as im concerned were all irish - the one

You do realise there are two international football teams in Ireland?

We have to basically provide a service from which young players feel they will get something back and hopefully they will have the desire to play for Northern Ireland. It’s an issue we have to keep working at though, although if a young player feels a stronger affinity to the Republic of Ireland then that’s the way it is

Fair points. But really we have to do more than provide a service. However good it is, some people will always decline the chance to play international football, whether because they can't be arsed (Stephen Ireland, Biggles McCartney) or would prefer to play for another team. A deal with the FAI would go some way to improve the situation, although obviously I realise it wouldn't stop players simply turning away even if they couldn't then go and play for someone else.

the other Paul Kee had a very giid game against Austria in the previous match, NI's last significant away win

Ouch. To be fair we did thrash Liechtenstein in 2007, who weren't complete mugs.

Exactly. As far as I know the gentleman's agreement was originally disbanded at a stage when Nationlists playing for the North were being given significant stick (around the time Lennon's abuse picked up?). The game in 93 at Windsor may have had some bearing in FAI circles. Was Kerr the first underage manager to pick youngsters born in the 6 counties?

Er, how far do you know? Which other players got significant stick (obviously I'm not downplaying the disgraceful treatment of Neil Lennon)? I don't want to be too defensive about this, but whatever the merits of the previous deal we need one that stops NI internationals later moving to play for the Republic. It's only reasonable.

[ifk101]

I don't want to be too defensive about this, but whatever the merits of the previous deal we need one that stops NI internationals later moving to play for the Republic. It's only reasonable.

What previous deal?

[geysir]

I'm aware of those facts, but as I stated in my post, before the GFA, people born in the 6 counties were automatically considered Irish citziens by the Irish state, but not by the UK. As such, proving you were born in NI would not at the time have proven to FIFA that you had the appropriate nationality to play for ROI. You would have needed some other document to prove you had the appropriate nationality, and in practice, that document is normally an Irish passport. I agree that anyone born in the North was always entitled to an Irish passport though (well by "always", I mean since independence for the 26).

You are confused by 'entitled to' and 'automatically' an Irish citizen.
Entitled to be eligible for citizenship and automatic citizenship are 2 different scenarios.

Before the GFA, people born in NI were not automatically dual citizens, they had the birth right to pursue an Irish citizenship under the Irish Nationality Act of the mid 1950s
After the GFA, pretty much all NI born were automatic Irish citizens and therefore automatically dual citizens.

Because of the automatic nationality since the GFA, Shane Duffy may only have a UK passport but can still play for the FAI.