Player eligibility row

[DannyInvincible]

Surely not: merely being born in Ireland, then applying for an Irish passport doesn't guarantee that you'll ever get one, let alone have its status backdated to birth. Remember, you (plural) voted by an overwhelming majority in 2004 not to give automatic citizenship to everyone born in Ireland. Effectively all your (personal) statement quoted above is saying is 'if you prove you're an Irish citizen by being one then you can er, be one'. It's a bit vague, not to mention restrictive.

I'm aware of what I overlooked. Admittedly, that was careless of me. I should have said:

"The legislation specifies that a person born on the island of Ireland to an Irish national will be deemed an Irish citizen from birth if they perform an act that only an Irish person may carry out at any point during their life. I imagine this amounts to doing something like applying for an Irish passport."

Thankfully, pedantry is alive and well to keep me straight. :P

More to the point, however; we both know that that constitutional amendment doesn't really matter a huge deal within the current debate. It was raised a couple of pages ago as well for some reason. I don't really know why.

[SkStu]

Yeah right, like the Brits give passports to everyone who wants them......

talk to Mossad...

[DannyInvincible]

It doesn't matter when the player acquires the new nationality. What matter re his eligibilty to play for his new association is that he further satisfies the criteria outlined in the rest of article 17.
The criteria was set out like that to prevent say Brazilians being eligible to play for a new association after receiving a gift of a (fast tracked) passport in the post.
Article 17 is the main article under which our diaspora qualify.

Actually, do you know if article 17 applies in cases where nationality is acquired via parentage? I can see how it mightn't and only in cases where grand-parentage entitles a conferral of citizenship.

The Citizen Information website contains the following information:

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, then you are automatically an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth.

So, if you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born in Ireland, then you are an Irish citizen.

It appears, then, that nationality is conferred automatically from birth to all those persons born to Irish nationals. However, to acquire Irish nationality through grand-parentage, it appears that the applicant has to apply to be included in the foreign births register and they're deemed to be an Irish national from the date of acquisition.

If one of your grandparents is an Irish citizen but none of your parents was born in Ireland, you may become an Irish citizen. You will need to have your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register.

If you are entitled to register, your Irish citizenship is effective from the date of registration.

This latter form of acquiring Irish citizenship would invoke article 17 and its territorial criteria as there is little doubt that it amounts to the acquisition of a new nationality, whereas it appears that those who are Irish nationals from birth by parental descent would qualify to play for us under article 15. Would this be a correct understanding?

[irishfan86]

Danny...I don't really get your point. No northern born Ireland player is "born" in the jurisdiction of the FAI in the formal sense. Why would whether they are born in Northern Ireland, or their grandparents were make any difference?

If they are eligible for Irish citizenship through a grandparent, parent, or through birth, they are eligible to play for the Republic. That is the ruling as it stands to the best of my knowledge.

[DannyInvincible]

Danny...I don't really get your point. No northern born Ireland player is "born" in the jurisdiction of the FAI in the formal sense. Why would whether they are born in Northern Ireland, or their grandparents were make any difference?

If they are eligible for Irish citizenship through a grandparent, parent, or through birth, they are eligible to play for the Republic. That is the ruling as it stands to the best of my knowledge.

A single and simple all-encompassing ruling like that doesn't exist. The relevant statutes here - articles 15 to 18 - are quoted on the previous page.

Those born in the north (and, presumably, persons born to an Irish parent anywhere, as those born of an Irish national are automatically conferred with Irish citizenship from birth) qualify to play for us under article 15. Article 17, however, comes into play in circumstances where a player not entitled to Irish citizenship by birth (or, I assume, by descent via parentage), but rather, by applying through descent via grand-parentage, acquires a new nationality.

Whilst article 17 refers to the territory of the FAI, eligibility under article 15 has nothing to do with territory or jurisdiction, but rather strictly nationality, and seeing as Ireland offers citizenship extra-territorially as a birthright to those born in the north (save for the exceptions introduced by the twenty-seventh constitutional amendment in 2004), this enables those born in Northern Ireland represent us under article 15 despite not being born within the jurisdiction of the FAI.

For a player who acquires new citizenship through grand-parentage and is deemed an Irish citizen from the date of acquisition, the criteria in article 17 stipulate that these grandparents must have been born in the territory of of FAI.

[DannyInvincible]

For that reason, I don't believe that a player like Carl Magnay, who was born in England and whose link to Ireland is via grandparents born in Northern Ireland, is eligible to play for us despite being perfectly entitled to apply for Irish citizenship (assuming his grandparents were also Irish citizens), unless FIFA would interpret Northern Ireland as constituting the territory of the FAI due to the fact that Irish citizenship can be conferred to those born there, but I don't find that likely seeing as the IFA already claim jurisdiction over that territory. The discrepancy arises in the statutes because Irish citizenship is granted extra-territorially to those born in Northern Ireland. For Magnay to qualify to play for us, I imagine article 17 would have to allow for his grandparents merely to have held Irish citizenship as opposed to demanding the stricter condition that they had been born in the territory of the FAI. The legal rules governing the extension of Irish citizenship don't require that those entitled to it be born within the territory of the Irish state. That's the fundamental difference.

[Gather round]

Thankfully, pedantry is alive and well to keep me straight. :P

More to the point, however; we both know that that constitutional amendment doesn't really matter a huge deal within the current debate. It was raised a couple of pages ago as well for some reason. I don't really know why

I don't think it's quite pedantry (and certainly not compared with the impressively detailed posts on every possible aspect of the dispute, by you and others). Many on the thread assume that everyone born in Ireland, as well as potentially millions elsewhere, qualify for Southern citizenship. I'm merely pointing out that not only is this no longer true, but that the change was supported by a huge majority of Southern voters in 2004.

Sorry if it upsets Ardee Bhoy, but your native country is just as restrictive as your adopted one.

[ifk101]

For that reason, I don't believe that a player like Carl Magnay, who was born in England and whose link to Ireland is via grandparents born in Northern Ireland, is eligible to play for us despite being perfectly entitled to apply for Irish citizenship (assuming his grandparents were also Irish citizens), unless FIFA would interpret Northern Ireland as constituting the territory of the FAI due to the fact that Irish citizenship can be conferred to those born there, but I don't find that likely seeing as the IFA already claim jurisdiction over that territory. The discrepancy arises in the statutes because Irish citizenship is granted extra-territorially to those born in Northern Ireland. For Magnay to qualify to play for us, I imagine article 17 would have to allow for his grandparents merely to have held Irish citizenship as opposed to demanding the stricter condition that they had been born in the territory of the FAI. The legal rules governing the extension of Irish citizenship don't require that those entitled to it be born within the territory of the Irish state. That's the fundamental difference.

If I'm not mistaken, Alex Bruce qualifies for us through a grandmother born in Bangor, NI. Furthermore, and again if I'm not mistaken, his eligibility for us was challenged at the time of Gibson. I presume Magnay qualifies for us on similar lines to Alex Bruce - most likely the grandparent in NI was born prior to partition. Anyways I can't find any quotes from Magnay stating that he has switched but if I could they'd probably be on similar lines to Alex Bruce's motivation to play for us; "I think I'm going to pick the Republic purely because I think they are a better team. That's no disrespect to Northern Ireland."

But, and on another note, it's interesting that the IFA is pursuing players of Bruce's, Magnay's etc etc background especially in the light of a previous Nigel Worthlesston statement. Worthlesston uttered this nugget of wisdom as to why Gibson should play for the North; "He's been born in the North so I think it's only right that the place of birth is the country that you play for."

[geysir]

Actually, do you know if article 17 applies in cases where nationality is acquired via parentage? I can see how it mightn't and only in cases where grand-parentage entitles a conferral of citizenship.

The Citizen Information website contains the following information:

It appears, then, that nationality is conferred automatically from birth to all those persons born to Irish nationals. However, to acquire Irish nationality through grand-parentage, it appears that the applicant has to apply to be included in the foreign births register and they're deemed to be an Irish national from the date of acquisition.

It is a good question in relation to automatic citizenship and how FIFA would regard it.
This is the flip side to foreign nationals giving birth to a kid in Ireland.

This latter form of acquiring Irish citizenship would invoke article 17 and its territorial criteria as there is little doubt that it amounts to the acquisition of a new nationality, whereas it appears that those who are Irish nationals from birth by parental descent would qualify to play for us under article 15. Would this be a correct understanding?

The big bone of IFA contention (aka utter confusion) are those NI born kids who have no 26 county residence or parents/grandparents born there, therefore the IFA say that kid should not qualify under article 15 to play for the FAI.
The example you pick of a kid born outside the country to one Irish born parent, has automatic entitlement to Irish citizenship regardless of residence in Ireland.
That kid already has a blood line to Ireland established.
Whether that kid qualifies under article 15 or article 17 doesn't matter. What matters is, the kid qualifies.

What also matters is, if he has played international football for that other country. If he has, then he has to satisfy the criteria in Article 18 before he can qualify to play for the FAI.
Article 18 also applies those NI born footballers who want to declare for the FAI but who have played representative youth/senior friendly for NI.

[DannyInvincible]

I don't think it's quite pedantry (and certainly not compared with the impressively detailed posts on every possible aspect of the dispute, by you and others). Many on the thread assume that everyone born in Ireland, as well as potentially millions elsewhere, qualify for Southern citizenship. I'm merely pointing out that not only is this no longer true, but that the change was supported by a huge majority of Southern voters in 2004.

I'm not so sure everyone is assuming that. It's more likely that, in spite of by-passing mention of it every time they speak of the general rule entitling those born on the island to Irish citizenship (save for the three-and-half page list of exceptions and conditions in the legislation, of course), most here are well aware of that change to Irish nationality law, but they simply don't see a need to keep mentioning it as it's not a major aspect of the issue which is under debate here - whether or not northern-borns who are entitled to Irish citizenship are eligible to represent us - and it merely serves to complicate matters unnecessarily as it doesn't really have any bearing on whether or not a northern-born is eligible to play for us if it is assumed that he is eligible for Irish citizenship in the first place. For the sake of the argument, I don't think it's an unreasonable "jump" to make when trying to understand the nature of his citizenship.

If I'm not mistaken, Alex Bruce qualifies for us through a grandmother born in Bangor, NI. Furthermore, and again if I'm not mistaken, his eligibility for us was challenged at the time of Gibson. I presume Magnay qualifies for us on similar lines to Alex Bruce - most likely the grandparent in NI was born prior to partition. Anyways I can't find any quotes from Magnay stating that he has switched but if I could they'd probably be on similar lines to Alex Bruce's motivation to play for us; "I think I'm going to pick the Republic purely because I think they are a better team. That's no disrespect to Northern Ireland."

You're correct about Bruce's link to us being through a Bangor-born grandmother. I'm not so sure of the likelihood of her being born prior to partition, however. Doing a quick bit of background research and mathematical work, that would have made her at least 38 or so when she gave birth to Steve Bruce. Not saying it's impossible or anything, of course; just not as likely as the likelihood of her having being born post-partition. Maybe...

Anyhow, either way, that's his link to this island and if she was indeed born after partition, I don't see how such a link satisfies the FIFA rules. It entitles him to Irish citizenship, sure, but I don't think it satisfies FIFA's article 17 which raises a territorial element that is not contained in article 15. It would certainly be very interesting to hear the reasoning as to why FIFA believed he was eligible to play for us if the IFA did indeed challenge it. Why would the IFA challenge it if she was indeed born prior to partition anyway? Maybe FIFA apply some "common sense" approach to interpreting the meaning of the rule in relation to Ireland with it's rather unique form of nationality law? As far as Magnay is concerned, I believe he had grandparents, or at least a grandparent, from Derry, although I'm not sure whether they would have been born prior to or post-partition either.

The big bone of IFA contention (aka utter confusion) are those NI born kids who have no 26 county residence or parents/grandparents born there, therefore the IFA say that kid should not qualify under article 15 to play for the FAI.
The example you pick of a kid born outside the country to one Irish born parent, has automatic entitlement to Irish citizenship regardless of residence in Ireland.
That kid already has a blood line to Ireland established.
Whether that kid qualifies under article 15 or article 17 doesn't matter. What matters is, the kid qualifies.

What also matters is, if he has played international football for that other country. If he has, then he has to satisfy the criteria in Article 18 before he can qualify to play for the FAI.
Article 18 also applies those NI born footballers who want to declare for the FAI but who have played representative youth/senior friendly for NI.

I suppose why I mention it is because it would appear that those, say, born in England or wherever to an Irish national parent from Northern Ireland would qualify to play for us under article 15. The territorial requirement would not need to be satisfied due to the automatic nature of the citizenship. Under this scenario, I imagine it would make a difference as to whether the kid qualified under article 15 or article 17. Indeed, if it was article 17, I can't see how he would qualify to play for us. Of course, article 17 could only apply in such a scenario if the citizenship was being assumed from the date of acquisition after the child's birth and that is not the nature of conferral of Irish citizenship by parental descent, which is automatic (at odds with how citizenship might be acquired by descent through an Irish grandparent).

[geysir]

I suppose why I mention it is because it would appear that those, say, born in England or wherever to an Irish national parent from Northern Ireland would qualify to play for us under article 15. The territorial requirement would not need to be satisfied due to the automatic nature of the citizenship. Under this scenario, I imagine it would make a difference as to whether the kid qualified under article 15 or article 17. Indeed, if it was article 17, I can't see how he would qualify to play for us. Of course, article 17 could only apply in such a scenario if the citizenship was being assumed from the date of acquisition after the child's birth and that is not the nature of conferral of Irish citizenship by parental descent, which is automatic (at odds with how citizenship might be acquired by descent through an Irish grandparent).

That is the most interesting take on it so far. Well done.
You say according to Irish citizenship law, that maybe FIFA allow Bruce to qualify under article 15 and that does explain why Art 17, parent/grandparent birth in the association territory, does not apply.
I'll give it more thought on it later.

[DannyInvincible]

That is the most interesting take on it so far. Well done.
You say according to Irish citizenship law, that maybe FIFA allow Bruce to qualify under article 15 and that does explain why Art 17, parent/grandparent birth in the association territory, does not apply.
I'll give it more thought on it later.

For Bruce to be eligible under article 15, though, I imagine one of his parents would have to have been an Irish citizen born on the island. This would have conferred Irish citizenship unto him automatically from birth. As it is, though, he qualifies through a grandparent and would have had to acquire his Irish citizenship, which is what brings article 17 into play here as his only permanent and original nationality at birth in England would have been British. I'm not strictly sure how FIFA would make such a leap between the two articles, if that is indeed what they would have done. The other possibility was that FIFA interpret the meaning of "territory" loosely or apply some "common sense" reading of it in the context of the FAI's territory and the realm over which Irish nationality law applies and to where it extends; that being extra-territorially.

[geysir]

Ah right, I thought Bruce had an NI mother. My misunderstanding though I suspect Co Down Green was the faulty source

[DannyInvincible]

Ah right, I thought Bruce had an NI mother. My misunderstanding though I suspect Co Down Green was the faulty source

It was Steve Bruce's mother was from Bangor, so Alex Bruce's grandmother. Assuming Wikipedia is correct.

[DannyInvincible]

Of course, that's not to discount the fact that situation you mentioned could very easily arise.