Whats up with shels fans

[Lamper.sffc]

Guys. Iv been miss quoted and miss understood. But i guess thats what you want. If you read what i have said, the only attack i have made is on negativity.

I was told by others not to come on this site because there was a certain few who patrol this site like they own it. I now realise that what they meant.

Im looking for constructive conversation. not comments on how i know how to work this site.

Mod hat on - lamper, there's a multi-quote button beside the reply button. Please use it rather than posting two and three times in succession. Thanks.

Im replying to 2 or 3 different comments from 2 or 3 different people. I like to seperate them.

It would be nice for some people to actually come back with an argument other than it wont work because, i think you wont work, You are dublin city, you wont get the crowds.

I like to know how you know this for sure

Tell me why. Give me a reason, or something. Give me facts

But you dont,

I never said SF would work, i just said it was a different approach.


pineapple stu, you truly are a moron. I know you cant help it, but hay we all have our faults

look lamper everybody wishes SF but you must understand your solutions are not sure are a doulble edge sword.
(a) to survive in the EL you must look beyond the community for sponsorship
(b) most parents while happy to drop the kids of at 40miles per hour for training will not
give a rats arse about your EL endevours
)c) you can develope kids for 10 years when they want to go somewhere (GAA or other soccer clubs) they will go without so much as a by or leave.
I am not saying dont try these things im am saying dont expect fantastic results.

I never said it would work. I just said we are copying tried and trusted methods from clubs abroad. Thats all.

Lets see what happens is my attitude.

There is no need to knock it. like so many on here are. (not saying you are)

You stated that the league should aspire to the Norwegian League and I merely pointed out that there is one Big Club in the league and all the others compare un-favorably to eL clubs
......

You actually said

take Rosenborg out of the Norwegian league and the quality and attendances are inferior to LOI

A little bit different dont you think.
Where are you getting these facts from

[Santry_Goonshow]

Come on Lamper, courage of your convictions - say what you mean don't be bashed up by Muppetish words and misplaced "non hearing" pedanticism.

SFFC and Wex Youths are doing this LOI thing a different way, a way that works elsewhere in the continent for e.g. that improves all the football in the hinterland in which it exists and builds on that as a resource which attracts fans, marketing and community identification. The Monaghan lad is right, we need to prove ourselves and we should not be unaware of that. However, because we are 1 month old I refuse to accept that we have inferior opinions or that we are the playthings of tossers on the board.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Not enough and it is my opinion that it will never grow beyond the few hundred that Dublin City used to attract

I don't think their crowds will be as bad as Dublin City's. Not 100% sure on this, but if I remember correctly Dublin City's marketing strategy was to have Dublin in the club's name, have the home jersey blue and sell them in Carrolls. I don't think any real marketing/promotion was done by them. Also, when DC got promoted they had to move to Dalymount, which would have hit any increase in crowds promotion would have (however big or small is another matter).

Sporting Fingal seem to be unlike Dublin City. They have appointed a marketing executive, who I think is full time, and do not have over-ambitious goals of reaching the Champions League in five years time. They aim to have an average attendence of 800 this season, and I think that is achievable, although they will probably fall short. One thing they are doing, which Dublin City did not, was locate themselves in a densely populated area, where no EL club is located. The negative side, however, is that their stadium is a few years away still.

Wexford are very welcome. They're sustainable. You're an implosion waiting to happen.

What does sustainable mean in this context- breaking even or surviving?

[pineapple stu]

What does sustainable mean in this context- breaking even or surviving?

Both; they go hand in hand really.

You noted SFFC aimed to have average crowds of 800 or so. Their first paying crowd was 450. That's not going to sustain the kind of squad they have.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Both; they go hand in hand really.

You noted SFFC aimed to have average crowds of 800 or so. Their first paying crowd was 450. That's not going to sustain the kind of squad they have.

Don't know if you're aware but the property developer Gannon is pumping moeny into the club, don't know how much. Would it not be a similar situation to Pats- making a loss but being able to survive?

Gate receipts would make up only a small portion of club's income. Presumably Sporting Fingal will generate other revenue streams. I don't think the 800 figure was only mentioned as a target, not a target they need to survive.

[Lamper.sffc]

Come on Lamper, courage of your convictions - say what you mean don't be bashed up by Muppetish words and misplaced "non hearing" pedanticism.

SFFC and Wex Youths are doing this LOI thing a different way, a way that works elsewhere in the continent for e.g. that improves all the football in the hinterland in which it exists and builds on that as a resource which attracts fans, marketing and community identification. The Monaghan lad is right, we need to prove ourselves and we should not be unaware of that. However, because we are 1 month old I refuse to accept that we have inferior opinions or that we are the playthings of tossers on the board.

Oh im keeping the courage of my convictions.

Just realising why some people warned me off this website.

Wont shut me up though.

[Block G Raptor]

Gate receipts would make up only a small portion of club's income. Presumably Sporting Fingal will generate other revenue streams. I don't think the 800 figure was only mentioned as a target, not a target they need to survive.

I don't think gate receipts will make up a small percentage of the clubs revenue quite the opposite infact. every club in the eL relies heavily on gate receipts to survive hence the ones like Dublin city and Kilkenny that don't get crowds don't survive. Also all this talk of community fan base etc. FFs Dublin City played in an empty morton stadium and if the locals out there didn't feel an affinity with a club called Dublin city they certainly won't feel an affinity to a club called Fingal

I really hope I'm wrong but I don't think SF will survive long enough to see a stadium in Swords

[Lamper.sffc]

I don't think gate receipts will make up a small percentage of the clubs revenue quite the opposite infact. every club in the eL relies heavily on gate receipts to survive hence the ones like Dublin city and Kilkenny that don't get crowds don't survive. Also all this talk of community fan base etc. FFs Dublin City played in an empty morton stadium and if the locals out there didn't feel an affinity with a club called Dublin city they certainly won't feel an affinity to a club called Fingal

I really hope I'm wrong but I don't think SF will survive long enough to see a stadium in Swords

Financed for the next 5 years. Long enough to get us to swords.

What you are forgetting is that a lot of the support will come from areas like swords, Donabate, Malahide, Skerries, Balbrigan, Rush, Lusk to name but a few. Its not just the outskirts of the city they are aiming for.

Some of the areas i mentioned are big footballing areas with large populations. These areas have never had a club that represents them in the eircom league. Thats one of the reasons dublin city differs from SF.

Dublin city was getting support from the outskirts of the city and in.
( I know there will be exceptions)

While SF is hoping for support from the outskirts of the city and back towards Balbrigan.

Dublin city never represented these towns I mentioned.
SF will in time.

[Block G Raptor]

I doubt very much that you'll be in swords in 5 years
Do you really envisage the hoards traveling from Swords, Donabate, Ballbriggan, wherever to that kip in Santry for the next 5 years. ffs Bohs cant get people from Cabra to go to games nor Shells people from drumcondra etc. what makes you think that they'll travel to Santry for SF did you hear a mystical voice telling you "If you build it they will come"
Also if SF becomes a Money pit in the near future that 5 year funding may just disappear over night. as I said before I really want to be wrong about all this (and I was one of the guillable who thought that dublin city might just be the gimmick to get barstoolers interested) I just think there are far too many similarities between DCFC and SF to be hopefull of a different outcome

Also you say that Dublin City didn't represent the area's in fingal? Fair enough, maybe they didn't, but they did purport to represent a city of 1.5 million people and still they couldn't get 100 to a game.

serious question: what makes you think that Sporting Fingal will get a substantial support base from the 250,000 people of Ballbriggan Swords Donabate etc

[Lamper.sffc]

I doubt very much that you'll be in swords in 5 years.

Based on what knowledge.

Do you really envisage the hoards traveling from Swords, Donabate, Ballbriggan.

Never said hoards. Some fans already are, me included. It only take 20 mins for me to get to santry less if you are from swords.

did you hear a mystical voice telling you " if you build it they will come

What Good point

and I was one of the guillable who thought that dublin city might just be the gimmick to get barstoolers interested

That just it. It was a gimmick

too many similarities between DCFC and SF to be hopefull of a different outcome

And they are.

Also you say that Dublin City didn't represent the area's in fingal? Fair enough, maybe they didn't, but they did purport to represent a city of 1.5 million people and still they couldn't get 100 to a game.

How many other dublin clubs are in the city.Dublin city spread themselves too thin.
Its not the name they call themselves. Its the area they represent
Sporting are getting more than a hundred ( early days i know)

serious question: what makes you think that Sporting Fingal will get a substantial support base from the 250,000 people of Ballbriggan Swords Donabate etc

Do you read what i say

Some of the areas i mentioned are big footballing areas with large populations. These areas have never had a club that represents them in the eircom league.

[Block G Raptor]

Ok you've obviously missed my point.
to answer your first question as to why I don't believe you'll be in swords in 5 years. couple of reasons. A: Fingal CoCo will have been through a change of councillors and the new council may not be as behind the Idea. B:If the club is not getting good crowds at Morton within say three years it would be a very brave man who would finance a brand new stadium on the assumption that there are a rake of fans out there who won't travel to santry but will come to the new stadium down the road in swords. C: this is Ireland it takes about 5 years to do a bit of roadworks ffs do you really think you'll get all the red tape out of the way and a shiny new stadium within 5 years ?

Now for the similarities between DCFC and Sporting Fingal

1. both were brand new Northside Dublin Club's, Playing originally out of the morton stadium in Santry
2. Both relied on the ill perceived(IMO)notion that they represented a community who were for whatever reasons deprived of an eL club with whom they could Identify.
3. Both spent heavily on Wages in an attempt to gain immediate success(note how wexford and Limerick are going about their squad building)
4.Both were essentially being bankrolled by an individual (who in Dublin City's case got to the stage were he couldn't justify the expenditure any longer)
5. Both were trying to squeeze into an already over crowded market (wrap it up however you want SF are another Dublin Club)
6.Neither had a discernable Fan Base nor a history of junior football to lay the foundations for a fanbase

[Lamper.sffc]

Ok you've obviously missed my point.
to answer your first question as to why I don't believe you'll be in swords in 5 years. couple of reasons. A: Fingal CoCo will have been through a change of councillors and the new council may not be as behind the Idea. B:If the club is not getting good crowds at Morton within say three years it would be a very brave man who would finance a brand new stadium on the assumption that there are a rake of fans out there who won't travel to santry but will come to the new stadium down the road in swords. C: this is Ireland it takes about 5 years to do a bit of roadworks ffs do you really think you'll get all the red tape out of the way and a shiny new stadium within 5 years ?

Now for the similarities between DCFC and Sporting Fingal

1. both were brand new Northside Dublin Club's, Playing originally out of the morton stadium in Santry
2. Both relied on the ill perceived(IMO)notion that they represented a community who were for whatever reasons deprived of an eL club with whom they could Identify.
3. Both spent heavily on Wages in an attempt to gain immediate success(note how wexford and Limerick are going about their squad building)
4.Both were essentially being bankrolled by an individual (who in Dublin City's case got to the stage were he couldn't justify the expenditure any longer)
5. Both were trying to squeeze into an already over crowded market (wrap it up however you want SF are another Dublin Club)
6.Neither had a discernable Fan Base nor a history of junior football to lay the foundations for a fanbase

I understood you fine.

I take all your points and some I would agree with.
Not all, but we could do this all day and still get nowhere

Lets just leave it there. Until the next argument

Lets wait and see where we are in 5 years.

So i can prove you wrong

[Block G Raptor]

Lets wait and see where we are in 5 years.

So i can prove you wrong

Heart and sole I really hope you do prove me wrong! I'll be keeping a keen eye on SF in the First Div as I suppose I've kind of adopted them as my second team
I just think I've seen all this before and it didn't end well

I think what Fingal are doing has a lot creditable aspects that would certainly be great for a regional club somewhere like Mullingar that don't have an established club
but I think the Biggest problem with Fingal is they are trying to tap into a perceived Community that I don't think exists in an already crowded marketplace

[Santry_Goonshow]

Now for the similarities between DCFC and Sporting Fingal

1. both were brand new Northside Dublin Club's, Playing originally out of the morton stadium in Santry
2. Both relied on the ill perceived(IMO)notion that they represented a community who were for whatever reasons deprived of an eL club with whom they could Identify.
3. Both spent heavily on Wages in an attempt to gain immediate success(note how wexford and Limerick are going about their squad building)
4.Both were essentially being bankrolled by an individual (who in Dublin City's case got to the stage were he couldn't justify the expenditure any longer)
5. Both were trying to squeeze into an already over crowded market (wrap it up however you want SF are another Dublin Club)
6.Neither had a discernable Fan Base nor a history of junior football to lay the foundations for a fanbase

I have to be careful, apparantly disagreement with other posters is WUMMING or in some ways constitutes a personal attack. Sort of like being Jewish in 1933 was a crime against the state in Germany [historical fact] and not aimed at anyone in particular so not a personal attack. Krystallnacht if you wish.

1. Both on the Northside Hmmm. A bit superficial eh? And SFFC is taking its catchment from the north of Santry i.e. the county, while DCFC took its from south of Santry - thus the name Dublin City.... and the name Fingal. Oh well. Better not mention the 1993 local government act coz facts get deleted here

2. Representing a community deprived of LOI football, agree in the case of DCFC who were nestled in the same suburbs as Bohs, SRFC, Shelbourne. Blatantly wrong in the case of SFFC, no LOI soccer for 12kms south (Shelbourne) and 60kms north (Drogheda)

3. SFFC is outlaying a fair bit over a short period of time on wages, but you can't not try to compete, especially with only 8 weeks to prepare for entry. Fingal County Councils soccer plan has, within 5 years players of an extremely high standard coming through. DCFC had more of the traditional necrotic "links" to youth football, not supporting teams and not taking the academy approch and allowing the players stay with their neighbourhood clubs as they develop. {ahh I'm sick of explaining this - go look it up before yous decide to flame me}

4. Wrong again. SFFC bankrolled by a consortium of Keelings, Anglo Irish bank and Ger Gannon. Even without the latter they have a bigger level of investment that DCFC ever had. But don't let's stop there

5. Overcrowded market, an opinion I can see and hear often but not really the case. Look at it this way Dublin used to have twice as many teams. Cork used to have 4 teams!

6. The only point I can take seriously, however, there are 55 clubs now going in Fingal at all levels and the SFFC (if you care to find out about it) is to Unite them under the SFFC flag.

Fan to club ratios
Athlone POP = 15,000 - 1 team, 1:35000, surrounding areas included
Limerick POP = 91,000 - 1 team, 1:110000, using town plus
Cork POP = 190,000 - 2 teams, 1:95000, using Cork plus suburbs
Kildare POP = 186,000 - 1 team, 1:186000, pop of whole county
Dundalk POP = 29,000 - 1 team 1:35000, town area plus outlying area
Drogheda POP = 29,000 - 1 team 1:38000, town area plus outlying area
Finn Harps POP = 150,000 - 1 team 1:150000, being really generous here using County Donegals population
Dublin City and 3 counties POP = 1,187,000 - 6 teams 1:197833

No matter what you do by league of Ireland norms Dublin has an undersupply of teams. This holds for urban and rural norms too

[pineapple stu]

Don't know if you're aware but the property developer Gannon is pumping moeny into the club, don't know how much. Would it not be a similar situation to Pats- making a loss but being able to survive?

Don't know if you're aware, but Gretna have effectively gone tits up following the same business plan.

Continually making a loss and being sustainable are pretty much mutually exclusive. Even Pat's and Drogs fans accept that. Even Chelsea accept that.

I don't think gate receipts will make up a small percentage of the clubs revenue quite the opposite infact. every club in the eL relies heavily on gate receipts to survive hence the ones like Dublin city and Kilkenny that don't get crowds don't survive.

Wrong again, I'm afraid.

Bohs, for example, had expenditure last season of about E1.5m. Gate receipts were E250k. Other income was about E600k.

You say that small clubs fold because of small gate receipts. Incorrect IMO - they fold because of a resultant lack of people to run the off-field side of things.

[B]I have to be careful, apparantly disagreement with other posters is WUMMING or in some ways constitutes a personal attack.

Calling someone a tosser while ignoring all the points they raise may just constitute a personal attack, don't you think?