Do we want an all - Ireland team?

[lopez]

Following the North's latest goalless game, BBC NI ran a poll on its local news programme about ditching the NI and joining with us in an all-Ireland side.

The poll concluded with 53% in favour but naturally caused a lot of spleen venting on the North's top fans forum, ourweecountry.co.uk.

How would we feel about joining with the North in international football?

[colster]

It'd be nice but can't see many of then N.I. team getting into the combined team.
I think Gillespie would be great on the right.
George McCartney, Aaron Hughes, Maik Taylor, Chris Baird, Damien Johnson, Michael Hughes and Steve Lomas would be in real contention for a squad place.

It's a pity this didn't happen back in the 80's when the likes of Whiteside, O'Neill etc. were playing.
Combined we would have had a great side.

[Bluebeard]

There once was an "All-Ireland" team. It was in 1973 or 74, I think, for a match against Brazil in Landsdowne. We lost 4-3, and if I recall correctly, Mick Martin scored one goal, Derek Dougan another. The team was a "Shamrock Rovers XI" officially (the same way it's a "Limerick" team playing the Dream Team soon:mad: ). Was there anyone on the boards at the mo at that game?

AFAIK this is the only time that there has been such a team, unless there was one for something like the Omagh fund?

[Duncan Gardner]

1. We're a foreign country.

2. You're our main rival and most of our fans support whover you're playing.

3. Any merged team would need to play many matches in Belfast, ****ing off southern fans without attracting any northerners (because they won't approach the 'cauldron of hatred', except to watch Liverpool/ ManU, drink in the Lisburn Road pubs or buy cars in the Boucher Road dealerships).

4. We're a foreign country.

5. There would inevitably be much more sectarian tension around matches (see 3).

6. The FAI's clout/ availability of junkets etc. would be much diluted. Prionsias and boys ain't voting themselves out of a sinecure.

7. We're a foreign country.

8. We're rubbish and there are no playing reasons for any change. You're better but if we need to merge with anyone I'd prefer Brazil.

9. No offence to the non-Irish born players in our squad currently, but broadly we don't want them to dominate.

10. We're a foreign country...

[Schumi]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
3. Any merged team would need to play many matches in Belfast, ****ing off southern fans without attracting any northerners (because they won't approach the 'cauldron of hatred', except to watch Liverpool/ ManU, drink in the Lisburn Road pubs or buy cars in the Boucher Road dealerships). Not to mention that Windsor Park only holds 15,000.

[John83]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
1. We're a foreign country.

4. We're a foreign country.

7. We're a foreign country.

10. We're a foreign country...

Ahem, some of us might beg to differ. ;) Besides, the rugger crowd don't seem to have any problems with it.

Oh, regards the players, what about David Healy? Would he make a squad place?

[Duncan Gardner]

Schumi: Believe me, even the tiny dilapidated Windsor Park would have little problem holding the small number interested in such games.

John: if Ireland rugby fans are happy with hardly an Ulsterman in the team
not a single international at Ravenhill in decades
listening to the woeful Ireland's Call


then fair enough. I wouldn't be. In fact I might contact http://ulsterrugby.ie to say so.

David Healy is nowhere near good enough for international football, hasn't been for about two years.

[NigeSausagepump]

I'd be against it.

I see no reason to throw our lot in with a bunch that refer to us habitually as "beggars", view us with the same regard that Holland has for Germany and would bring another tranche of old Firm obsessed thugs to the games. The potential for trouble is immense - I wouldn't relish a few Linfield or Rangers supporting heroes making the trip down to Dublin to make a "statement" the night of an Ireland game. And before anyone throws their toys out of the pram I am fully aware that there are just as many RoI supporting idiots who could cause hassle in Belfast for the same reasons. However that's not what we're discussing. Leave well enough alone I say.

[Duncan Gardner]

Indeed. The term 'beggars' isn't really helpful, as Nige says.

Whole thing's a non-starter.

[fergalr]

I think this debate is pretty superfluous. Anyone born north of the border can choose to play for us if they so wish. As per the Belfast Agreement, its up to each individual as to whether they want to consider themselves British or Irish.

[liamon]

Why would we want to merge with the bigots in the North? We have enough problems already with fans...Rovers scum section, fans abusing any Glasgow Rangers player that comes to Dublin. Last thing we need is to mix those guys up with the sectarian idiots that abuse Lennon.

Forget it. No one wants this longterm. At present, the N. Ire team are in bits and so the fans would try anything to improve the situation. If this question was asked a few years ago, I don't think it would generate 53% support up North.

Plus, as Fergalr points out, the players can play for us now, if they want to.

[Duncan Gardner]

Originally posted by liamon
Why would we want to merge with the bigots in the North? We have enough problems already with fans...Rovers scum section, fans abusing any Glasgow Rangers player that comes to Dublin. Last thing we need is to mix those guys up with the sectarian idiots that abuse Lennon.

Forget it. No one wants this longterm. At present, the N. Ire team are in bits and so the fans would try anything to improve the situation. If this question was asked a few years ago, I don't think it would generate 53% support up North.

Plus, as Fergalr points out, the players can play for us now, if they want to.

Why would we want to merge with the bigots down south (though I'm sure Liamon would agree they're a minority on both sides :) ).

The question (in the BBC poll) will always get that answer because nationalists in NI who like football will tend to support the Republic. I'm quite relaxed about that. Unionists support the North. Genuine fans don't vote for their own team to be abolished.

This is basically a running joke for Sinn Fein and similar. If not a particularly coherent one.

And as Fergal didn't point out, provided they can get to the front of the queue past all the Englishmen (you took 10 to the last World Cup out of 22!).

11. We're a foreign country.:)

[liamon]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Why would we want to merge with the bigots down south (though I'm sure Liamon would agree they're a minority on both sides :) ).

.... front of the queue past all the Englishmen (you took 10 to the last World Cup out of 22!).



Yup. I do agree.

On the 10 english men....Cheeky!

[MikeW]

This may be off the point a bit, but Northern Ireland isn't really a country - foreign or otherwise. Neither are Scotland, Wales or England for that matter.

[gspain]

ame was in 1973 Shamrock rovers All Ireland XI v Brazil - lost 4-3 team included Dougan, Conroy, Giles, Brady and a young Martin O'Neill. i think Jennings was in goal. Game was live on tv and I can remember watching it (was only 6) and tis was i nthe dark days when we only had the FA Cup Final on tv (it was always the radio for Internationals).

As for an All Ireland team - no particular objection to one once the NI fans approved (which they don't and won't) but no particular desire either.

In reality it's a non story and just a page filler. It may become an issue if FIFA ever forced the UK to field one national team.

BTW the opposition to it up north is akin to the opposition here if an England fan suggested we unite and form one team for the British Isles (sure we're all the one country etc etc) and we have a flag that has the crosses of St. George, St Andrew and St. Patrick. :D

[lopez]

Heart says yes, but the heart says yes for world peace, next Saturday's lottery numbers and to be Claudia Schiffer's bar of soap for a day.To my northern friend DG:

1. The foreign country you belong to is Britain.:rolleyes: Ireland joined the United Kingdom in 1801 under some very dubious 'democratic' machinations. Therefore it should have decided whether to stay or go through a democratic vote. Instead an artificial statelet was invented for the minority who wished to stay British. The border contains farms that have their front doors in one country and back doors in another. Even the use of Ulster is inaccurate as if there were a nine counties province it would probably opt for a united Ireland. One would respect your 'sovereignty' as a 'country' if you were independent, but the truth is any wishes for independence are shared either by a few dope puffing liberals in the Alliance Party or Bob Jones University type crack-pots such as Hugh Ross and his one man Ulster Independence Movement.

Two fifths of the population wish to see a united Ireland as a political goal, and it looks like from this poll (despite the efforts of some NI fans to spend the evening ringing up continuously to influence the vote - which goes against the no-one votes for the abolition of their team: there was a no answer after all) that a part of the unionist population agree with two true-blue unionists, Derek Dougan and George Best, that a united Ireland team is desirable.

2. You just can't win. :rolleyes: Include 'Ulstermen' and you claim we're poaching. Don't include them and we're discriminating.

3. Yes the whole thing is a non starter because for the South there is too much to lose and nothing to gain. If a player wants to play for the south, he'll just take out citizenship. No gentleman's agreement can stop the right of any citizen to play for his country.

4. Only a UK team would force the issue. And then again we are back to the above where a de facto all - Ireland side would be participating under the 26 county 'Republic of Ireland.'

5. Cheeky right about 'Englishmen'.:eek: Even the most dubious ones (exceptions Tony Cascarino (who honest guv, we didn't know about) and the bloke with one cap who married a bird with an Irish granny) had some Irish blood. Not so some of the characters that have turned up for the O6C with a British passport, eh? And of course it never stopped you nicking southerners as your political (Edward Carson) and military (Henry Wilson) leaders during the attempt to loyally overthrow the elected goverment of your country (which isn't Northern Ireland).:p

PS: If I'm English, you must be Irish. Therefore support your country.;)

[tiktok]

this is such a non-runner it's daft, it's just the product of a very slow news day.

i think at the moment we would have little to gain from it and potentially much to lose. as someone has said though, if this could have been put together in the early-mid eighties we could have had some team between us. Remember the ROI only missed out on Spain '82 on goal difference. this team could have played....

__________________Jennings________________
____Nicholl_____Moran__Lawrenson__Donaghy__
____Whiteside___O'Neill__McIllroy____Brady_____
____________Armstrong____Stapleton_________

and i'm leaving out a load of players from both countries

[Duncan Gardner]

To my Hemel friend Lopez:

The foreign country we don't belong to is the Republic of Ireland.
Therefore, we are not going to merge with its football team.

Ireland's joining the United Kingdom in 1801 was not in any sense democratic, and no-one seriously claimed at the time that it was. This is well before universal suffrage of course, or even the great 'reform' of 1832; but Ireland did have the Grattan Parliament of its own.

The artificial statelet in Belfast founded in the 1920s was no more artificial than the Dublin one. It had majority support from a geographically localised population. It was quickly recognised as lacking legitimacy (ie by discriminating against nationalists), but by and large it doesn't do that any more, yet remains in place. NI has outlasted the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, remember. And there is simply no sign that this will change.

Sure, 'Ulster' is inaccurate. At my school, there were plenty of Prod farmers from the lost three who'd learned from grandparents that we (ie Belfast) sold them out in the 1920s. But again, it's no more inaccurate than you referring to the 26 as 'Ireland'. Live and let live, eh?

For 50 years until 1972, and haltingly in recent years, NI has had effective autonomy from Great Britain. Not what I'd prefer but you need to recognise reality. What most unionists want- and have wanted for decades- is primarily separation from Dublin, rather than any particular form of devolution from London.

That poll was a nationalist stunt and I very much doubt any NI fans voted to abolish. The BBC, and BelTel run this sort of thing from time to time: it's never followed up of course, but merely passed off as a joke. Were it serious, they would alienate much of their audience, which as you rightly point out is about 60% non-nationalist. George Best and Derek Dougan are not true-blue unionists, actually, notwithstanding what they thought about football 20 or 30 years ago.

You knew after four caps that TC was ineligible for international football. Yet he got 80+ more! That was dishonest, to deny it was silly. The problem with all your English is not so much where they grew up, but the faux-historical justification you give to pick them. It has little do with the famine or diaspora, more that Matty or Clint ain't good enough to play for England or Jamaica. Sure, we bend the rules (like England, Germany, Italy and France have done), but we don't blame Britain for enabling us to pick British players! Your hypocrisy is laughable.

As for the mutineers, why not list the most senior of all- Andrew Bonar Law, who became Brit prome minister a few years later, in 1922. Maybe because you realise that events 80 years ago aren't actually that relevant any more?

[Condex]

Do we want all the hassle ?

But anyone in the north who wants to play for the south should be allowed to do so or visa versa.

I think there is some agreement between the two associations not to poach each others under-age players.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
The artificial statelet in Belfast founded in the 1920s was no more artificial than the Dublin one.

Of course that's true, (something that the more extreme ends of Republicanism would agree with) but this is also a recognition that the country was divided just as Germany, Vietnam and Korea were, and it is why most 26C supporters, both north and south, consider the 26C side as the de facto representatives of this whole island. Unlike Ulster however, the majority in this divided land would vote for independence.

Thanks to the separation of the two states, neither fulfilled its potential. The south was held back for years by economic stagnation and as Sean O'Faoilain claimed, it was hard to tell where the Irish parliament was: Maynooth or Dublin. Meanwhile the North had almost thirty years of civil war. As for outlasting these countries, remember we are talking about an autonomous region of Britain, not a country.

That poll was a nationalist stunt and I very much doubt any NI fans voted to abolish.

Your belief in the poll being 'a nationalist stunt' strikes me as being a touch of wishful thinking, if not paranoia. And as far as George and Derek being unionist, Dougan claims that he is only interested in footballing re-unification in his books 'The Sash He Never Wore' and 'How Not To Run Football'. Still doesn't stop him being labelled a Lundy or a 'rotten prod' though.

You knew after four caps that TC was ineligible for international football. Yet he got 80+ more!

I didn't know Cascarino was ineligible until his money-making book. If only his mother had played ball and got an Irish passport, he would have been eligible, despite her adoption.

The problem with all your English is not so much where they grew up, but the faux-historical justification you give to pick them. It has little do with the famine or diaspora, more that Matty or Clint ain't good enough to play for England or Jamaica...Your hypocrisy is laughable.

I wouldn't say that a player with one grandparent makes him Irish, but it does entitle him to Irish citizenship. But what about the players and fans with two Irish parents? Are these players just playing for Ireland cos they didn't make it into the England team? Are these fans following Ireland because they are glory-hunters or because they can't get tickets to England games, or did they have a brick fall on their heads because they don't support the first country their mothers' dropped them on? Perhaps if you stuck to TC, Aldo, Miguel Robinson and the Princess Diana loving Andy Townsend plus a couple more I'd agree with you. I wouldn't doubt that Jimmy Nichol and Ian Dowie were committed to NI. Would you?

May I also mention Alan Kernaghan. Here was a man who was picked (legally) by us because the IFA refused to pick him, even though he grew up in NI, played schoolboy internationals for NI and his grandparents were born there. A northern protestant picked not because of his religion but because he wanted international football, and we needed a centre half. Again still didn't stop him being called a Lundy or a 'rotten prod' or us discriminating. Still we'll knoe for sure next time the British (sic.) Lions squad is named.

As for the mutineers, why not list the most senior of all- Andrew Bonar Law, who became Brit prome minister a few years later, in 1922.

Wasn't he Canadian?

Maybe because you realise that events 80 years ago aren't actually that relevant any more?

If only events 800 years ago weren't relevant.

[gspain]

Tony Cascarino was eligible to play for us at all times. He had an Irish passport which is all that is required.

Just like anyone with a British passport can play for Northern Ireland whether it be Laurie Sanchez or the shameless pursuit of David Johnson. :) :)

[pineapple stu]

Originally posted by gspain
Just like anyone with a British passport can play for Northern Ireland whether it be Laurie Sanchez or the shameless pursuit of David Johnson. :) :)

Don't forget Maik Taylor - a German naturalised in England after playing for Fulham for a time who subsequently declared for the North!

Surely though this is a political issue (and a fairly thorny one at that) and shouldn't be reduced to whether David Healy would improve our team? Seems to be an insult to everyone who's suffered, innocently or willingly in defence of their beliefs, over the centuries. Very surprised the Beeb brought it up actually...

[clarkeyboy]

i think even after demogaphics finally solve the "national question", we should leave them be up at windsor. we don't need their brand of "patriotism", and that's being kind. too many bitter people who would use the occasion to forment hatred and bigotry. btw, from a very reliable source, damien johnson was asked on the coach to windsor the other night "how many of us will be singing the anthem tonight damien?" he replied "about four of yez". :D :p :D

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez. There's no parallel between the parition of Ireland and that of Germany in 1945. Is there? So why mention it...

All RoI fans recognise that NI has a team. Most aren't bothered, a few are upset. But all accept it 'de facto'.

The BBC NI poll was a stunt for the reasons I described. BTW please don't use 'paranoia' (which has a precise clinical meaning) as a shorthand for 'Ulster unionist who disagrees with me'. My reading of Messrs Dougan and Best over the years suggests one's an old-fashioned Labour man, the other party apolitical.

You didn't personally know Cantscorani was ineligible. But the FAI did, eh?

Don't be defensive. As you know I admire the huge support your team has, particularly away. But there's a lot of baggage involved. Drop that, and no-one will really mind where you or your players grow up. But keep going on about disapora and 1169, you'll get ridiculed. German and French football fans don't constantly return to the Peace of Westphalia or the Edict of Nantes, eh?

I was disappointed about Alan Kernaghan. Sure, we don't have so many good players to afford to lose any: but YOU broke the gentlemens' agreement. There was no 'law', as you say, but you still showed bad faith. Obviously I abhor anyone giving AK sectarian abuse for his choice.

Gary. TC didn't deserve an Irish passport. Which the FAI knew. Which is, er, all that matters...

Actually, anyone with a UK passport but born outside is eligible for any of the four teams. Not really sensible but not quite what you said. Agree about David Johnson, who's rubbish anyway. I thought Sanchez has Irish grandparent(s)?

Clarkeyboy. The demographics aren't going your way- all surveys show nationalist/ Catholic strength peaking at about 46% then falling slightly over the next generation. Your brand of 'patriotism' is basically the same as ours. All your 'reliable source' needs to do is watch TV when our players line up for the anthems. I couldn't give a flying fcuk whether any or all sing them- but Damien Johnson was our best player in Ukraine nevertheless.

But for all that you're broadly right. We don't want to join you, or vice-versa. So what's the issue?

[gspain]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner

You didn't personally know Cantscorani was ineligible. But the FAI did, eh?

Don't be defensive. As you know I admire the huge support your team has, particularly away. But there's a lot of baggage involved. Drop that, and no-one will really mind where you or your players grow up. But keep going on about disapora and 1169, you'll get ridiculed. German and French football fans don't constantly return to the Peace of Westphalia or the Edict of Nantes, eh?

I was disappointed about Alan Kernaghan. Sure, we don't have so many good players to afford to lose any: but YOU broke the gentlemens' agreement. There was no 'law', as you say, but you still showed bad faith. Obviously I abhor anyone giving AK sectarian abuse for his choice.

Gary. TC didn't deserve an Irish passport. Which the FAI knew. Which is, er, all that matters...



Who knew what on Cascarino is a moot point. However he was eligible to play. We have applied for passports for a couple of others and got turned down.

Alan Kernaghan wanted to play for Northern Ireland. You turned him down because Billy Bingham decided after Laurie Sanchez not to use the granny rule. I believe Alan Kernaghan's 4 grandparents were from the Bangor area and he went to school there having been born in England. I think with hindsight most NI fans will agree you should have accepted him. We took him then and he turned in some decent performances for us in qualifying for USA 94 and was unfortunate to lose out to Phil Babb .

We have exploited the granny rule on a few occasions but in many more cases the guys are ghenuinely Irish even if born in England. We have many English born fans who consider themselves Irish and have been following us long before it became fashionable.

As for breaking the "gentleman's agreement" yes it looks like we did although it wasn't with Kernaghan - think it was more Brian Kerr with the underage teams. We have invested signidficantly in our underage sides but I can see how it is a sore point. I don't like it when Kyran Bracken plays rugby for england.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez. There's no parallel between the partition of Ireland and that of Germany in 1945. Is there? So why mention it...

Interference by a third party, partitioned against the democratic wishes of the majority and as you concede both states are artificial creations, just like the FRG and the GDR. No parallel indeed.

We're not talking about Israel here, where the creation of this 'state' can be justified as a homeland for a long persecuted people. You have your own country as I have mine. No that doesn't mean p*ss off there, after all you would probably be a greater contributor to Ireland than someone who declares their love of their country tattooed on their arm but sells drugs and participates in murder solely on ethnic/religious (take your pick) lines. I live in Britain and to be quite honest, I know where I stand there, probably more than yourself.

All RoI fans recognise that NI has a team. Most aren't bothered, a few are upset. But all accept it 'de facto'.

Fair point but please don't use the 'our country' line. Your country, whether you live in Belfast, London or Letterkenny (as some of your supporters - good luck to them - do) is Britain. Having four teams may have been okay with the British Championship or the Empire Games but it is a bit of liberty in the World Cup.

The BBC NI poll was a stunt for the reasons I described. BTW please don't use 'paranoia' (which has a precise clinical meaning) as a shorthand for 'Ulster unionist who disagrees with me'.

Everyone is against us. The BBC, the Belfast Telegraph, the treacherous British government. SF/IRA to be succinct have accepted (grudgingly) partition which will not be broken by mere demographics (perhaps for the good unless we want a repeat of the past 30 years) but by unionists changing to either separatists or Republicans.

My reading of Messrs Dougan and Best over the years suggests one's an old-fashioned Labour man, the other party apolitical.

'I...am not arguing for or against a political United Ireland. All I want to argue is that there is a need for an All-Ireland football team...' (pp177: The Sash He Never Wore...Twenty Five Years On). I also spoke to Derek in the mid nineties and he conceded that he was British. Besty? I have great memories of him sober at a dinner in Harrow, London, just before US'94. Asked who he'd want as England manager he replied: 'As an Irishman, it has to be Graham Taylor.' Class.

You didn't personally know Cantscorani was ineligible. But the FAI did, eh?

As Senor Espana pointed out before, he got an Irish passport, even though this was through dubious methods. A bit like Zola Budd. Anyway an adopted person is entitled to the benefits of a non-adopted person. If not, they may as well stay 'fostered'.

Don't be defensive. As you know I admire the huge support your team has, particularly away. But there's a lot of baggage involved. Drop that, and no-one will really mind where you or your players grow up. But keep going on about Diaspora and 1169, you'll get ridiculed. German and French football fans don't constantly return to the Peace of Westphalia or the Edict of Nantes, eh?

Your the one that brought up the '10 English' players, just like the British press. No mention of the hundred of dubious 'British' sportsmen that have competed for your country's teams including the Maharaja Kumar Shri Ranjitsinhji Vibhaji who played cricket for England in the late 1890s. I bet he'd have to look a fair bit back for his English granny!

As for Germany, you know that the whole citizenship laws of that country, unless they've been changed, have been based on blood (Jus sanguinis) rather than birthplace (Jus Soli). While Mehmet and Ali (and possibly their parents) were born in Germany, they couldn't get German citizenship, someone from the former Soviet Union could walk in with his great grandfather's Nazi Party membership and get a passport.

I was disappointed about Alan Kernaghan. Sure, we don't have so many good players to afford to lose any: but YOU broke the gentlemens' agreement. There was no 'law', as you say, but you still showed bad faith. Obviously I abhor anyone giving AK sectarian abuse for his choice.

Good! I don't believe in any agreement that stops someone from playing for any country for which he is a citizen.

The demographics aren't going your way- all surveys show nationalist/ Catholic strength peaking at about 46% then falling slightly over the next generation. Your brand of 'patriotism' is basically the same as ours. All your 'reliable source' needs to do is watch TV when our players line up for the anthems. I couldn't give a flying fcuk whether any or all sing them- but Damien Johnson was our best player in Ukraine nevertheless.

The demographics are meaningless if Unionists continue to veto any all-Ireland state. However I was at the 'cauldron of hate' that you mention for your match against Spain in June, and there were many around me that refused to sing GSTQ. I believe they were nationalists (although they were all grandfathers with their children - the younger generation were in The Botanic watching the Georgia game). These NI supporters would most likely support an All-Ireland team, if not the Republic (as first choice).

I have to admit (after my previous two visits watching the south in Windsor Park) that the atmosphere has changed for the better. The IFA should be commended for their much belated attempt to purge sectarianism surrounding the team. However it is all like one of those British Telecom ads asking people to come back after years of liberty taking. It all sounds as if now the IFA are losing gate receipts, they are desperately seeking Nationalists to attend.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Conor74
Uh oh...there's gonna be trouble...someone just mentioned the Peace of Westphalia...:D :D :D

It's a northern thing, C74, seventeenth century events. Like the annual dedication to a seventeenth century Dutch poof :eek: (no offence to any gay readers, especially the two nice boys I met in Tallin), of which a couple of scarves recalling his highness's victory over an oversexed Scottish layabout (who alas was also Catholic) somewhere near Drogheda, I spotted at the otherwise charming Windsor Park in June.:p

[brine2]

I think the NI team and Windsor Park supporters should first reach out to the NI population, teams and players that they have succeeded in isolating before people even start thinking about an all-Ireland team. Get an alternative Ulster, alter your native land.

[lopez]

Originally posted by brine2
I think the NI team and Windsor Park supporters should first reach out to the NI population, teams and players that they have succeeded in isolating before people even start thinking about an all-Ireland team. Get an alternative Ulster, alter your native land.

That is exactly what the IFA have tried to do with its, if I'm correct, 'Football for all' campaign, following the firstly booing of Neil Lennon, and then his subsequent 'death threat' of which a few NI fans would like us to believe was a nationalist stunt, 'because they were the only ones to benefit from it.' The IFA have never been a sectarian organisation. This is an easy thing to say but one needs to look at its significance during the time from partition to probably the arrival of Terence O'Neil, an era where most areas of government and their subsidiaries were dominated by an ethic that took pride in not employing Catholics. Not only did the IFA refuse to pick teams on religious/ethnic lines but even elected Austin Donnelly as its president. The same can't be said of the Irish League, of whose record regarding both Belfast Celtic and Derry City was shameful and whom both Donegal Celtic and Lurgan Celtic recently threatened to take to court.

The trouble is that many nationalists, especially those of the 'troubles' generation (under 40), just couldn't be arsed about NI whatever the IFA does. While there is a belief amongst the NI faithful that this is a recent offshoot of the Republic's success, there were Northerners following the Republic in 1981 when my first away game was. To visit Belfast now is to see, ignoring those of two Glasgow clubs, either replica Republic shirts or to a lesser extent England shirts. NI shirts just don't appear. It is strange indeed.

[The Blue Oyster]

me personally i would not like one.although roy carroll would be a good back up for shay.

[brine2]

Aaron Hughes over Ian Harte, surely. Norn Iron may be weak going forward (understatement of the year) but they have a sound enough defence.

[Duncan Gardner]

Gary- happy birthday! As my source for Tony C is basically his book, which does appear to be extremely dishonest even by the standards of ghosted autobiogs, I'll withdraw from this one as gracefully as possible :)

Blue Oyster- fine, if you're prepared for the Fermanagh Fumbler to cut games in eastern Europe for 'personal reasons' (ie, so he can warm his arse on the ManU bench or play for the stiffs). When this was put to him by some angrty fans in the car park after the Armenia game, he got off the team coach in a right lather and had to be held back by Sammy Mac :mad:

Brine- are you the poster aka Coyote from Amsterdam? If so, hello, goed moergen?

Lopez- I guess the others don't want to read our interminable head to head, so I've emailed you (ps, look out for even more inanity as the bard of Finsbury Park has now joined this board :confused: )...

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez- I guess the others don't want to read our interminable head to head, so I've emailed you (ps, look out for even more inanity as the bard of Finsbury Park has now joined this board :confused: )...

You're right. I think people are bored by our handbags swinging in the wind. Still, can't wait for Kyrano's evil half brother to lather up this forum.:D

[brine2]

Brine- are you the poster aka Coyote from Amsterdam? If so, hello, goed moergen?

hello indeed. yeah, how did you end up here? Was Colm not entertaining enough for you?

(it's "goede morgen") goed is correct spelling for good, but morgen is a "de" word (de morgen) so the noun morgen modifies the adjective goed with an e on the end. That concludes today's Dutch lesson. :)

[crc]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Clarkeyboy. The demographics aren't going your way- all surveys show nationalist/ Catholic strength peaking at about 46% then falling slightly over the next generation.

Sorry mate, the Catholic population is higher for every age group between age 0 and age 24. NI Census details (http://www.nisra.gov.uk/census/Excel/cas_tables/CAS306ni.xls)

I'm completely in favour of an all-Ireland team, just like most of the other sports on the island: cricket, rugby, hockey, GAA, athletics, swimming, basketball, volleyball, tennis...

Whatever about the political issue, the island constitutes the natural sporting community. We would all benefit.

[Duncan Gardner]

Originally posted by crc
Sorry mate, the Catholic population is higher for every age group between age 0 and age 24. NI Census details (http://www.nisra.gov.uk/census/Excel/cas_tables/CAS306ni.xls)

I'm completely in favour of an all-Ireland team, just like most of the other sports on the island: cricket, rugby, hockey, GAA, athletics, swimming, basketball, volleyball, tennis...

Whatever about the political issue, the island constitutes the natural sporting community. We would all benefit.

Indeed. For the 16-24 group, Catholics outnumber others by a ratio roughly 51:49. Yet for 25-44 year olds (obviously a sample more than twice as large), the ration is about 44:56. So unless you introudce a maximum voting age of, say, 30, you can forget outpolling the unionists (or "planters", for our drunken friend above)for a few decades yet. Even if all Catholics declare for nationalist parties, which the evidence of November 2003 suggests they won't- SF and SDLP's combined strength actually fell from previous elections, to 40.5%.

Claiming that the border isn't important is in itself a political issue, is it not? :)

[crc]

DG:

I realise that there is currently a Protestant majority in the older age groups and in the population as a whole - I was merely countering your claim that the Catholic populaton would peak at 46%. This is obviously not the case as there is a higher Catholic birth rate and so, based on the data that we are presented with, you can envision that there may be parity in say, 30 - 40 years.

I never made any mention about Nationalists or Unionists, or how they vote!

The border is important because it is stifling football on this island, both sides (particularly the leagues) would be better off if it was organised differently.

For example, there is no Welsh cricket organisation because there is the England & Wales one. They realise that their game is healthier that way, wheras Scotland and Ireland operate independently because their circumstances are different.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
...So unless you introudce a maximum voting age of, say, 30, you can forget outpolling the unionists (or "planters", for our drunken friend above)for a few decades yet. Even if all Catholics declare for nationalist parties, which the evidence of November 2003 suggests they won't- SF and SDLP's combined strength actually fell from previous elections, to 40.5%.
It wouldn't matter if Catholics outvoted Protestants 80 to 20 and Sinn Fein representatives were greater than all the others put together, as in 1918. Unionists will never accept an all -Ireland state. They weren't interested in democracy ninety years ago. What makes you think they're interested in it now (hence Trimble's attempt to move the goalposts once more a couple of years ago when his sphincter went upon hearing Belfast was now a Taig town)? The least you can expect is a resurgence of Unionist terrorism with the hope that they can once more repartition the island with no thoughts for either their stranded co-religionists/politicos let alone any RCs they inherit.

[Duncan Gardner]

crc. The 46% I quoted was from a recent academic paper out of Queens University in Belfast. I'll try to find a link for this. A greater Catholic birthrate in 1991-2001 does not necessarily mean the same in 2011-2021, as Gerry Adams has acknowledged.

You didn't mention unionist and nationalist voting strengths, as you say, but they're more important politically than a religious census.

Wales has a representative cricket team which beat England in a representative one-day game a couple of seasons ago :)

Lopez. I like it when you get irritable :( . To quote your favourite realpolitik, of course the unionists would have to scratch a deal were they ever massively outnumbered by the nats in NI. But since they won't be, we'll never get the chance to test your hypothesis.

Naturally I accept not being particularly representative of Ulster unionism. I certainly dissociate from Trimble. Apart from his dodgy youth (leadership of the 70s Vanguard) and sucking up to Paisley and the paramilitaries at Drumcree, the man's a CONSERVATIVE!

PS just cos the Czech railways are even slower than the Met Line doesn't mean they're worse overall :D

[the 12 th man]

Originally posted by brine2
Aaron Hughes over Ian Harte, surely. Norn Iron may be weak going forward (understatement of the year) but they have a sound enough defence.


christy brown over ian harte me thinks

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Lopez. I like it when you get irritable.
You wish. :p

How's the diet. If you lose 25% you'll be able to get into a retro NI shirt I might still have from circa 1980 (think it was size M). Even seen some 'action' with some French students down the local swimming pool when they insulted it. I'll autograph it 'to all my fans on OWC' if you wear it in Tallin. What you're going back on the Rubys?:(

And you've got it wrong about the Met line. According to my in house Pravda type rag, the punters have never been happier.:rolleyes: Said the same when the Central line was b*llocksed last year.:D

[John83]

Originally posted by davros
Well made point.....an all-Ireland soccer league has got to be somrthing which would improve standards,though appreciate current security & political issues,mainly involving N-E.Ulster!
Hey, how much worse than Homeless Rovers can they be?

[fromthenorthffs]

I was in a bar i probably shouldn't have been the day we played Germany. But i seen the reaction. And the fact is that they hate Germany more than us, cos when Robbie knockedin that equaliser in injury time the place erupted.

All-Ireland can work, provided it gets a new flag, anthem (not the dreadful Irelands call, Field of Athenry would be much better), and the odd game gets played in Belfast.

(or all of them if Lansdowne gets done up)

It works with Rugby cos there is no option, who else you gonna support?? Scotland? Or the side with David Humphreys (MBE) in it? Same with Neil Lennon, Maik Taylor, Aaron Hughes, George McCartney, Chris Baird, Danny Griffin, Michael Hughes, Keith Gillespie, Damian Johnson and Steve Lomas. I mean at least one of them will get in the side whilst Ian Harte is the only left back we have

[lopez]

I don't think the BBC and the Belfast Telegraph would get away with so much of its undoubted Republic bias if it was just Catholics that supported the team. A certain Northern poster on here confided to me that if (and only IF) push came to shove and there was a UK team he'd rather follow the Republic (however if those w*nkers who bring Old Firm sectarianism into Ireland games continue to dominate, then he might think again).

And there are others who I've known who could be termed unionists, who would support the Republic against the English, let alone the Germans. Take the overt republicanism out of an all-Ireland football team, and many - dare I say most - unionists would back it the way they back all other all-Ireland teams. And if they couldn't do that they can always follow the de facto UK XI minus Ryan Giggs along with the wee man, Big Donald, Skelly and the late Grug Gregg RIP.

[SÓC]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
To my Hemel friend Lopez:

The foreign country we don't belong to is the Republic of Ireland.
Therefore, we are not going to merge with its football team.


Well according the law as it stands in the UK the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country to the UK but the UK has nor declares no control over the Republic.

Does that mean we can have Keith Gillespie?

[Duncan Gardner]

What law is that. S O'C? Britain recognises Ireland as a sovereign independent country.

I'm quite relaxed about those names, and can't be bothered typing out the formal alternatives ;)

[SÓC]

An Act of the UK Parliament in 1949 (name escapes me now), the very one that recognises Ireland as a sovereign independent country makes specific reference to the fact that whilst the above is true, Ireland is not a foreign country.

All I want is a right sided winger:D

[nifan]

Id take Damian Johnston instead of Gillespie at the minute, he is incredibly fit, decent speed and can be great at running with the ball. It was great to see him running at the Spanish midfielders with the ball and them resorting to hacking him. He just got up and ran at them again.

[belfastreb]

The last province wide poll carried out by the BBC said there was a majority of people in the North in favour of 1 all-Ireland team (previous polls by the Belfast Telegraph have had nothing in them). I would willing bet if it came to a vote, there would be enough fair and sporting minded unionists for a clear majority in the north. The hardcore Irish league ourweecountry.co.uk bigots that visit these boards are not representative of the general soccer public in the north who have been disenfranchised from following and watching soccer in a neutral sporting enviroment for decades.

[lopez]

Originally posted by belfastreb
The last province wide poll carried out by the BBC said there was a majority of people in the North in favour of 1 all-Ireland team (previous polls by the Belfast Telegraph have had nothing in them). I would willing bet if it came to a vote, there would be enough fair and sporting minded unionists for a clear majority in the north. The hardcore Irish league ourweecountry.co.uk bigots that visit these boards are not representative of the general soccer public in the north who have been disenfranchised from following and watching soccer in a neutral sporting enviroment for decades.
Apparently that poll can be discounted because NI fans would not vote for the dissolution of their team (see DG page 1).:confused: Once more possibly the veto of a minority over a majority?