IL fans view on AIL

[oriel]

Whats the general view on the proposed All Ireland Lge from our friends in the north*

Personally speaking I think it should only happen when/if the FAI + IFA agree on it and also agree a proprer structure. I would have no time for the current plantium 1 or whatever they are called who are proposing this, they will only waint it on their terms not for th ebeneifti of football on this island. For eg, Limerick 37 and Galway Utd ???? Enough said.

I think the way to go would be an All Ireland Premier of 14 teams based on merit then a Div one north and south with proper promotion of say the two champions and a 3rd place for the winners of a play off between the two divisions.

I think Linfield, Glentoran would be auto choices, would Clifftonville not be within a shout, and also a resrurcuted Portadown ?

There is no way the current Dundalk side would be ready, but maybe when/if the new lge does start in 3 or 4 years time, maybe we will be there.

I think the standard in a 14 team premier would be good and 14 would be just about the right number. But you would have the akward 3 x 13 rounds thing, 12 may work, but it is not too small for an All Ireland lge

Any thoughts ?

[BleusAvantTout]

Given the reported financial shortfalls affecting Eircom League clubs I believe an AIL is dead in the water at the minute!

[Mr_Parker]

The current proposals for an AIL are a non starter imo. All sales patter, no substance.

[SMorgan]

Totally agree.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/features/eircomleague/

The P1 proposal is absolute nonsense and not even a basis for any sort of agreement on the issue. In my opinion the people that produced P1 proposal clearly don't know what their talking about and it would be madness to let them near our league.

[belfastred]

Totally agree.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/mns/features/eircomleague/

The P1 proposal is absolute nonsense and not even a basis for any sort of agreement on the issue. In my opinion the people that produced P1 proposal clearly don't know what their talking about and it would be madness to let them near our league.

You are 100% right. I do think there is potential for an All -Ireland league but it should be 5 years away with proper planning and structures put in place.

[waide]

An AIL has to be a must for football both sides of the border,but i do agree proper planning and investment would have to be in place otherwise it is a non starter.

[ArdeeBhoy]

They will never willingly agree. But then when did logic come into anything?

[Gather round]

They will never willingly agree. But then when did logic come into anything?

Er...plenty of them do agree, including at least one on this thread.

I fear Ardee Bhoy may have overdone the Slivovitz in Podgorica...

[robertob]

I've a positive view on a envisaged All Ireland League. Because I think it's the one and only way for football in Ireland to get better and more professional structures. It would be in a AIL every matchday great and interesting games wich will give the football a new presence. That implies that more people will watch the games, that implies also more TV and more money by sponsors.

I think a fair split for a AIL will be seven teams of LOI and five of IL for a 12 teams premier division. This gives the AIL the chance to have all great teams of both countries inside.

[Gather round]

I've a positive view on a envisaged All Ireland League. Because I think it's the one and only way for football in Ireland to get better and more professional structures. It would be in a AIL every matchday great and interesting games wich will give the football a new presence. That implies that more people will watch the games, that implies also more TV and more money by sponsors.

I think a fair split for a AIL will be seven teams of LOI and five of IL for a 12 teams premier division. This gives the AIL the chance to have all great teams of both countries inside.

Tschuess Robertob.

I hope your plan for the AIL includes FC Kreuzrittern 98 (NordIrlands meister 73, 76, 95, 97) :)

[jinxy lilywhite]

I posted this sometime ago on a AIL league "How would you do it". My only amendment is that I have removed teams that I had included.

For me a Premier 16 team play home and away. Personally i'd prefer winter football. We would then have a first consisting of the next best 16 teams consisting of Norht and South. A straight 3 up/ 3 down but we may steal a play off style situation from England in the First division. The bottom team of this league will be immediately relegated.
A third tier to be set up on a provinicial basis where the winners will enter into a round robin league and the winners will qualify to the first. The relegated team from the first will go into their provincial league
Strict guidelines to be introduced to each club in relation to promotion, expenditure, wages. I would even go as far as cut the wage cap from 65% to 50% and enforce that a certain % of the remiander can be invested by clubs into youth structures. Admin expenses not to exceed 5% of turnover. Directors loans would be abolished and all income to be made via gate receipts, shirt sales, donations, patron schemes so on and so forth. Also remortgaging of grounds, assests and disolution of fixed assets to have strict guidelines attached too.
Far fetched but i feel every club needs to be involved

[brendy_éire]

The majority of IL fans I've spoken to in Belfast seem to be in favour of the idea in principle. Disregarding the current financial status of clubs north and south, most IL fans, from my experience, would support an AIL. One major reservation for them seems to be the travelling involved though.
Yeah, it's a big jump in distances, but it's not hard to do.
Still assumes me that Linfield and Glens fans complain when they're away to Stute, having to travel 'the whole way to Derry'. :D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Er...plenty of them do agree, including at least one on this thread.

I fear Ardee Bhoy may have overdone the Slivovitz in Podgorica...
Would be rather hard, given I wasn't in the country at the time!

[citybone]

The standard of the IL is worse siple as!

12 Team summer split
9 teams from the republic
3 teams from northern Ireland
Champions play in Champions league qualifiers under LOI seeding
2nd play in UEFA cup under LOI seeding
Continues under LOI UEFA co-effecient.

Relegation:
12th placed club gets relegated to there respective league.
11th placed club has playoff with Champions of IL or EL whoever was not promoted.
Irish league and league of Ireland continues

Irish League premier division
12 Team split summer league.
(Intermediate standard, semi pro or amateur)
Irish cup continues including the 3 AIL clubs, Winners Play in UEFA cup under IL seeding & co-effecient.
2 teams relegated
League cup played with intermediate clubs no AIL clubs top 4 clubs in IL prem get a bye to the second round.

League of Ireland premier division
12 Team split
(Intermediate standard, semi pro or amateur)
FAI cup continues including the 9 AIL clubs, Winners Play in UEFA cup under LOI seeding & co-effecient.
2 teams relegated
League cup played with intermediate clubs no AIL clubs

have 2 13 team IL 1st divisions East and Weat
Have the A championship continue in Ireland with reserve teams from the AIL and the 4 worst clubs in the LOI. take 5 years to implement all this.

The reason why i want summer football and a split is for the AIL to improve in europe significantly

[Steve Bruce]

]
The standard of the IL is worse siple as!

12 Team summer split
9 teams from the republic
3 teams from northern Ireland
Champions play in Champions league qualifiers under LOI seeding
2nd play in UEFA cup under LOI seeding
Continues under LOI UEFA co-effecient.

Relegation:
12th placed club gets relegated to there respective league.
11th placed club has playoff with Champions of IL or EL whoever was not promoted.
Irish league and league of Ireland continues

Irish League premier division
12 Team split summer league.
(Intermediate standard, semi pro or amateur)
Irish cup continues including the 3 AIL clubs, Winners Play in UEFA cup under IL seeding & co-effecient.
2 teams relegated
League cup played with intermediate clubs no AIL clubs top 4 clubs in IL prem get a bye to the second round.

League of Ireland premier division
12 Team split
(Intermediate standard, semi pro or amateur)
FAI cup continues including the 9 AIL clubs, Winners Play in UEFA cup under LOI seeding & co-effecient.
2 teams relegated
League cup played with intermediate clubs no AIL clubs

have 2 13 team IL 1st divisions East and Weat
Have the A championship continue in Ireland with reserve teams from the AIL and the 4 worst clubs in the LOI. take 5 years to implement all this.

The reason why i want summer football and a split is for the AIL to improve in europe significantly

This attitude puts me off wanting any part of an AIL down there.

How about this for a novel idea if there was to be an All-Island league. Your top tear and our top tear in a 1 season bumper league.

The top 12 teams then qualify for the new All-Island league.

Imagine that, a league with 12 teams there on merit rather than percieved our 9th best team is better than the IL 4th best team. Which I do not believe is the case.

[citybone]

]

This attitude puts me off wanting any part of an AIL down there.

How about this for a novel idea if there was to be an All-Island league. Your top tear and our top tear in a 1 season bumper league.

The top 12 teams then qualify for the new All-Island league.

Imagine that, a league with 12 teams there on merit rather than percieved our 9th best team is better than the IL 4th best team. Which I do not believe is the case.
ok but look at the settanta cup cliftonville & glentoran cant get results against the LOI clubs The current system up north with the 12 team split will help the top clubs, though portadown will be a bit behind. the relagation system i suggested that the best clubs would stay up and clubs who are not good enough would go down simple as.

[Steve Bruce]

ok but look at the settanta cup cliftonville & glentoran cant get results against the LOI clubs The current system up north with the 12 team split will help the top clubs, though portadown will be a bit behind. the relagation system i suggested that the best clubs would stay up and clubs who are not good enough would go down simple as.

So because of poor showing on the Setanta cup that means that the LOIs 9th best team is better than our 4th?

Could it not just be the case that your top 4 teams are superior to our top 4 teams (bar Linfield ;))

I watch quite a bit of LOI football on TV and whilst it is a fair standard, it really doesn’t blow me away. The IL is behind but not light years.

[citybone]

So because of poor showing on the Setanta cup that means that the LOIs 9th best team is better than our 4th?

Could it not just be the case that your top 4 teams are superior to our top 4 teams (bar Linfield ;))

I watch quite a bit of LOI football on TV and whilst it is a fair standard, it really doesn’t blow me away. The IL is behind but not light years.

Ok its hard to know really, but lets say our 8th best vs your 5th best?
Bray or Rovers vs Lisburn or Coleraine on current league tables
without these clubs playing each other competitively its hard to know. I could use Uefa Co-effecient as a basis cos yee are good bit behind us but yee are out of season when those games are played and its only your top teams anyway which is the same problem.

[Steve Bruce]

Ok its hard to know really, but lets say our 8th best vs your 5th best?
Bray or Rovers vs Lisburn or Coleraine on current league tables
without these clubs playing each other competitively its hard to know. I could use Uefa Co-effecient as a basis cos yee are good bit behind us but yee are out of season when those games are played and its only your top teams anyway which is the same problem.

Basically in a nutshell, whilst I do agree on the whole your league is stronger, the fairest way to make up the top 12 teams in Ireland is to have the two leagues play in a one off season and pick the top 12 from that

[sonofstan]

Basically in a nutshell, whilst I do agree on the whole your league is stronger, the fairest way to make up the top 12 teams in Ireland is to have the two leagues play in a one off season and pick the top 12 from that

I agree with that I think - if nothing else, it would be one madly competitive season; Bray v. Coleraine in vital 12th spot decider!

[citybone]

Basically in a nutshell, whilst I do agree on the whole your league is stronger, the fairest way to make up the top 12 teams in Ireland is to have the two leagues play in a one off season and pick the top 12 from that
I guess for one season that would be acceptable but only 1 AIL no 1st division! just have a pyramid system which has a IL and a LOI prem the following year.

[Steve Bruce]

I guess for one season that would be acceptable but only 1 AIL no 1st division! just have a pyramid system which has a IL and a LOI prem the following year.

I think a regional pyramid system is the best and most cost effective way. AIL first division would be a disaster in terms of cost.

[holidaysong]

I think a regional pyramid system is the best and most cost effective way. AIL first division would be a disaster in terms of cost.

I couldn't see it being any worse than the current LOI First Division.. In fact, it'd probably suit Dundalk FC a lot more in terms of cost!

Although a regional pyramid system would probably make more sense alright..

[Steve Bruce]

I couldn't see it being any worse than the current LOI First Division.. In fact, it'd probably suit Dundalk FC a lot more in terms of cost!

Although a regional pyramid system would probably make more sense alright..

Who's to say the Regional pyramid cannot include the likes of Dundalk in the Northern region? I don't nesserilly think that there should be a Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland split if the scenario of an AIL happens.

[holidaysong]

Who's to say the Regional pyramid cannot include the likes of Dundalk in the Northern region? I don't nesserilly think that there should be a Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland split if the scenario of an AIL happens.

Surely for any AIL to go ahead, the LOI and IL would have to remain underneath it (split along the existing ROI/NI border). This would allow both the IFA and the FAI to continue as they are and to justify separate international teams. If all division were to have an all-Ireland element, I couldn't see UEFA allowing the FAI and IFA to continue as separate associations..

[Steve Bruce]

Surely for any AIL to go ahead, the LOI and IL would have to remain underneath it (split along the existing ROI/NI border). This would allow both the IFA and the FAI to continue as they are and to justify separate international teams. If all division were to have an all-Ireland element, I couldn't see UEFA allowing the FAI and IFA to continue as separate associations..

To be honest, I think the whole notion is pie in the sky, just like Rangers and Celtic joining the Premier League in England.

[SolitudeRed]

I think all the financial chaos amongst some of the LoI clubs has well and truly shot down this idea. On the plus side though it may make the two leagues a bit more equal which can only be good for the setanta cup.

[gufc2000]

I think if an AIL goes ahead, then all teams must be included, north and south of the border. No good bringing some and leaving others, otherwise the other teams won't survive. I'd suggest there be a pathway for all teams into it

[citybone]

I think if an AIL goes ahead, then all teams must be included, north and south of the border. No good bringing some and leaving others, otherwise the other teams won't survive. I'd suggest there be a pathway for all teams into it

did anyone suggest otherwise? there would have t be a relegation/promotion between leagues

[gufc2000]

did anyone suggest otherwise? there would have t be a relegation/promotion between leagues
Yes Platinum 1 did, and alot of other rumours that were mooted was there would only be a 10/12 team AIL

[belfastred]

Any AIL should have 16 teams in the top flight playing each other home and away.

30 league games all played at the weekend weather permitting of course.

[gufc2000]

If there was a 16 team AIL I'd go with:
Linfield
Glentoran
Portadown
Cliftonville
Coleraine
Crusaders
Bohemians
St Pats Athletic
Dundalk
Cork
Derry
Galway Utd
Shamrock Rvs
Sligo Rovers
Bray Wanderers
Drogheda Utd

First Division
Lisburn Distillery
Dungannon
Glenavon
Ballymena
Newry
Institute
Sporting Fingal
Shelbourne
Waterford
Limerick
UCD
Finn Harps


Then I would have regionalised leagues below that.
e.g. South: Monaghan, Wexford, Longford, Mervue, Kildare, Athlone, Tralee, Carlow, Castlebar, Salthill, Cobh, Portlaoise

[EalingGreen]

I am not averse to an AIL in principle, so long as it did not compromise the existence of the IFA and separate NI team etc.

As to how to go about it, the following basic idea was suggested elsewhere on this forum a while back, to which I have made a couple of amendments. I think it has a lot going for it.

Basically, you would start with a 20 team League, made up of 10 each from the IL and LOI (I know, I know, but bear with me!)

The season would be divided in two, a "Domestic" stage, followed by an "All-Island" one. In the opening Domestic stage, each of the IL teams would only play each other home and away, as would each of the LOI clubs, making a total of 18 games for each club.

For the second "All-Island" stage, each IL team would only play LOI teams home and away, and vice versa, thereby giving a further 20 games for each club (38 in all). At the end of this, then the All-Ireland Champions would be known, and the Sponsors' AIL prize money distributed accordingly.

To my mind, this has a number of advantages, plus no significant disadvantages which I can think of.

1. It would retain the separate identities of the two Leagues/Associations, and allow the winners of the Domestic Stage to proclaim themselves NI or ROI champions etc. Each club would be eligible for their own League's prize money only at this stage.

2. It would also go towards preventing UEFA reducing the total number of European places for Ireland (island), since these would be determined for both IFA and FAI at the end of the Domestic stage.

3. At the end of the Domestic stage, those teams who had finished just outside the top places would still have an incentive to improve in the second (All-Island) stage, since they would still be playing for the honour of calling themselves All-Ireland Champions, plus the increased Sponsors' (All-Ireland) prize money etc.

4. Beneath the AIL, the IFA and FAI would still retain their own separate "feeder" Leagues (called "IL" and "LOI"?). At the end of the AIL season, the two lowest teams from NI would drop out of the AIL, to be replaced by the two top (NI) teams from the IL.
Similarly, the two lowest from ROI would drop out of the AIL, to be replaced by the top two LOI teams.
(The four relegation places would be determined at the end of the All-Island stage, not the Domestic stage, in order to retain interest throughout the whole season; otherwise the clubs who were bottom at the end of the domestic season would have nothing to play for after the opening 18 games)

5. If the AIL was held over a calendar year i.e. starting, say, in February, this would mean that fans would only have to travel locally during the bad weather and short days etc. Correspondingly, the longer journeys would be staged during the Summer/Autumn (better weather, longer days).

6. The AIL Fixture List could also be arranged to accommodate the IFA and FAI to go on holding their traditional domestic Cups, as before, with no change to the format or entry criteria etc. That way history and tradition, and local rivalries etc, could be maintained as before.

Obviously, people will be concerned by starting off with equal numbers of NI and ROI clubs making up the new League. However, I would suggest this could be addressed in two ways.

First, Derry City could revert to being an NI club! OK, I know they still have bad memories of the events which caused them to join the LOI, but times have changed since then.
Moreover, they could "justify" this change by pointing out that they would now be competing in a genuinely All-Ireland League.
Additionally, they would be much better placed to receive Development Grants etc from Stormont, to compensate (I believe) for having been turned down recently by the Dublin Government on the basis that they are not within the juridiction(?).
Besides, afaik they are still technically Members of the IFA, and would arguably find it easier to qualify for Europe in competition with other Northern sides at the end of the Domestic stage, than they do presently competing against Southern teams in the Eircom.

Second, after a settling-down period (5 years?), the overall AIL structure could be reconfigured to comprise 11 ROI teams and 9 NI teams, should that prove necessary, by adjusting the relegation places from 2 NI and 2 ROI, to 3 NI and 1 ROI.
And if that were still not enough, the process could be repeated after another 5 year period, to leave 12 ROI teams and 8 NI team etc.
However, I would advocate an "equal" start, both to allow NI clubs to "catch up" on the field, but also to allow ROI clubs to sort out their present financial difficulties off the field!

I personally would hope that five years could see NI clubs close the gap somewhat, but if not, then so be it.

Anyhow, those are my ideas. How do they sound to fans of other clubs, especially from the Eircom?

[ifk101]

That's basically a jazzed-up version of the Setanta Cup you are suggesting there EG.

I'd be fairly strongly against the idea of an AIL. I don't think it offers any real tangible benefits - for all of the League of Ireland clubs. Why people would willing push aside the "smaller" LOI clubs for the benefit of league clubs under the jurisdiction of a neighbouring foootball association is beyond me.

Both the League of Ireland and the North-Eastern Irish League have their problems but bringing the two leagues together is not going to reduce these problems. Rather it will magnify them.

[EalingGreen]

That's basically a jazzed-up version of the Setanta Cup you are suggesting there EG.
Let me see, now.

A Setanta Cup of 9 teams, heavily weighted towards two cities (Dublin/Belfast) and one region (ROI), playing between 4 and 7 games per season on a knock-out basis, essentially for Prize money and the (highly arguable) title of all-Ireland Champions

Versus

An AIL of 20 teams, drawn from all over Ireland, playing 38 games per season on a League basis, with Promotion and Relegation, and European Places at stake, plus the unarguable title of All-Ireland champions at the end, whilst all the time retaining an IL and LOI element which has existed for nearly a century

I cannot believe how I didn't see the similarity...:rolleyes:



I'd be fairly strongly against the idea of an AILFair enough, though some slightly more cogent reasoning for your opinion than the rest of your post demonstrates would be nice.



I don't think it offers any real tangible benefits - for all of the League of Ireland clubs. Why people would willing push aside the "smaller" LOI clubs for the benefit of league clubs under the jurisdiction of a neighbouring foootball association is beyond me.
"I don't think it offers any real tangible benefits - for all of the Irish League clubs. Why people would willing push aside the "smaller" IL clubs for the benefit of league clubs under the jurisdiction of a neighbouring foootball association is beyond me"
Ever heard of the term "compromise"? :eek:

Anyhow, with a population of under six million, two other competing footballing codes on the island, plus the rival attractions of EPL and SPL football on the neighbouring island, Ireland is struggling to maintain two separate Leagues of its own, even on a part-time basis.
Therefore, by pooling the separate resources into one League, with fewer teams overall, it might be hoped that higher standards may be attained, both on and off the field, to the overall benefit of everyone concerned.



Both the League of Ireland and the North-Eastern Irish League have their problems but bringing the two leagues together is not going to reduce these problems. Rather it will magnify them.Of course there is no guarantee that any such new League would reduce our present problems. Indeed, if badly done, it may (not "will") even magnify them.
However the present situation, whereby the two Leagues keep themselves busy "re-arranging the deck-chairs" on their own section of the "Titanic" that is Irish domestic football, is not doing much to avoid Icebergs, either.

Therefore, if progress is to be made, it will require progressive thinking and a willingness to explore new ideas and methods, to replace those which have demonstrably failed both Leagues for a generation or more.

Of course, none of the requisite progressive thinking and new ideas etc will ever be forthcoming, if left to people whose minds appear so closed they haven't even the manners to use proper titles for their partners in any such venture.

At least that's what this fan of a team from the "North-Eastern Irish League" thinks, anyhow...

[ifk101]

Fair enough, though some slightly more cogent reasoning for your opinion than the rest of your post demonstrates would be nice.

1.) A number of LOI clubs have eyed up the idea of an AIL to get themselves out of financial holes.
2.) It would drive the smaller, regional LOI clubs into non-existence.
3.) European Cup places would be reduced - an important money spinner
4.) The LOI is arguably ahead of the IL in terms of standards - a middle-ground would need to be found which would probably entail LOI clubs taking a few steps backwards.
5.) Politics - there's going to be too much compromising.
6.) Setanta Cup has been a relative failure - it hasn't generated any great interest. Cross-border competitions have failed in other parts of the Europe as well.
7.) Need I go on.

There's no progressive thinking behind the AIL proposals. It's all waffle, make-believe rubbish. That's why I'm against it.

[EalingGreen]

1.) A number of LOI clubs have eyed up the idea of an AIL to get themselves out of financial holes.

No, a number of LOI clubs eyed up the Platinum proposal to get themselves out of a financial hole etc. What I am suggesting is entirely different.



2.) It would drive the smaller, regional LOI clubs into non-existence.

Why should it (at least any more than the smaller, regional IL clubs, at any rate)?
Football is not organised on a Franchise basis, the way e.g. American Football is, whereby struggling teams get a "leg-up" at the expense of more successful teams, via the new season player draft etc.
With "proper" football, all clubs have to "cut their cloth accordingly", regardless of what League/Division etc they are in. You have not demonstrated why proposal such as I am putting forward will change that.
Indeed, if you look at such a concept in its purest form - the EPL - for every Luton Town which goes from top to bottom, there is a Wigan Athletic which does the same in reverse.
Quite clearly, the difference is nothing to do with how League football was re-organised in England and everything to do with crap management at Luton, and excellent management at Wigan.



3.) European Cup places would be reduced - an important money spinner
How? My proposal quite clearly leaves room for an NI "Championship" and a (separate) LOI "Championship", with each having a 10 team/18 game stage played during the initial "domestic" stage of the AIL.
And with the IFA and FAI each continuing to adminster football at every other level in their respective jurisdictions, what excuse would UEFA have for reducing their respective European entries?
You presumably are aware of the Royal League; that did not cause UEFA to reduce European places for the Associations behind that.



4.) The LOI is arguably ahead of the IL in terms of standards - a middle-ground would need to be found which would probably entail LOI clubs taking a few steps backwards.

No "arguably" about it, imo. But you haven't demonstrated why LOI teams would get "dragged down" by such a proposal, any more than IL clubs would get "dragged up".
In the end, the best teams will rise to the top and the weakest teams will sink to the bottom.
If, after a suitable period, it is clear that the LOI has more than 10 clubs "fit" to play in the AIL and the IL correspondingly fewer, I would happily accept the initial 10:10 balance being reconfigured to 11:9 or even 12:8 (bearing in mind that Derry City would be considered an NI/IL club from the start, btw).
And/or it might be thought better to reduce the AIL to 18 or even 16 clubs, to address any imbalance.



5.) Politics - there's going to be too much compromising.

It's not a question of "too much" compromising (or too little, for that matter). The whole point about compromise is that it be fair (and seen to be so).
You have not demonstrated how my suggestion, and the compromises contained therein, are unfair to any of the parties involved.
Perhaps you are confusing "compromise" with "radicalism"?



6.) Setanta Cup has been a relative failure - it hasn't generated any great interest. Cross-border competitions have failed in other parts of the Europe as well.

Agree it hasn't been successful. Yet.
Then again, my suggestion is significantly different from the SC in several key respects, as outlined by me earlier (and ignored by you, btw).
As for the rest of Europe, aren't we always being told that "Ireland is different"? :rolleyes:
Anyhow, I am nowhere claiming that my suggestion is a "sure-fire winner", but neither can you assert that it must be flawed on the basis that other (only vaguely) similar ventures were proven to have flaws of their own.
Otherwise we wouldn't have invented powered flight, if the Wright Brothers had just said: "Well, none of the others have ever got off the ground, so there's no point in our trying!"
Much more pertinent in explaining such failures (imo) is the hostility of UEFA to the concept generally, plus the opposition by already reasonably successful domestic Leagues which felt threatened.
Neither such consideration need apply in this particular instance (imo).



7.) Need I go on.

If that's all you have, it's probably better for all of us if you don't! ;)



There's no progressive thinking behind the AIL proposals. It's all waffle, make-believe rubbish. That's why I'm against it.
Excuse me, but I think there's rather more "progressive thinking" behind what I (and others) have posted, than anything to be found in the cynical, negative, repetitive and unsubstantiated polemic which you have posted.

As for it being all "waffle" and "make-believe rubbish", you are entitled to such an opinion; indeed that opinion may even be correct, it's just you haven't posted anything which demonstrates that it is so.

Perhaps you've spent too long outside in the Scandinavian winter without a proper hat? :rolleyes:

[Steve Bruce]

That's basically a jazzed-up version of the Setanta Cup you are suggesting there EG.

I'd be fairly strongly against the idea of an AIL. I don't think it offers any real tangible benefits - for all of the League of Ireland clubs. Why people would willing push aside the "smaller" LOI clubs for the benefit of league clubs under the jurisdiction of a neighbouring foootball association is beyond me.

Both the League of Ireland and the North-Eastern Irish League have their problems but bringing the two leagues together is not going to reduce these problems. Rather it will magnify them.

The bolded part of your quote takes away any credibility you have. The name is Nothern Ireland or NI. You wont melt by giving it the proper name.

[ifk101]

The bolded part of your quote takes away any credibility you have. The name is Nothern Ireland or NI. You wont melt by giving it the proper name.

Given that the term "southern teams" was used previous to my post in this thread, I thought I'd also indulge myself in a bit of geography.


Perhaps you've spent too long outside in the Scandinavian winter without a proper hat? :rolleyes:

... and you saved your last smiley for that comment. :D

Your proposal is as follows,
1.) Reduced league fixture list for the LOI and IL
2.) Increased participation in a "new" All-Ireland "league" competition
3.) The dropping of the semi-final and final stage of the Setanta Cup.
And you're telling me this is not just a jazzed-up version of the current Setanta Cup?

For this to work EG there would have to be a substantial carrot at the end of it - and I mean something better than being called "All-Ireland" champions. Why would Club A, after winning their domestic league, securing the prize money and securing their place in Europe, bother their arses to take part in a competition that is unlikely to give much monetary gain - in terms of gate receipts, sponsorships and prize money - as evident by the success/failure of the current Setanta Cup?

How do the respective club pay their players? If the substantial part of their incomes is generated by their domestic seasons, do they pay their players for a 18 game season and field youth players in the All-Ireland league? Would this be acceptable to players - remember a number of LOI clubs are operating as professional clubs?

[osarusan]

How do the respective club pay their players?
The players are paid with some of the hundreds of millions of pounds of revenue that one home game with Linfield will provide.

[EalingGreen]

Your proposal is as follows,
1.) Reduced league fixture list for the LOI and IL
2.) Increased participation in a "new" All-Ireland "league" competition
3.) The dropping of the semi-final and final stage of the Setanta Cup.
And you're telling me this is not just a jazzed-up version of the current Setanta Cup?

You keep asserting that my suggestion is just a re-jigged Setanta Cup. I'm afraid that if you cannot or will not acknowledge the substantial differences, then I don't know what more to say.



For this to work EG there would have to be a substantial carrot at the end of it - and I mean something better than being called "All-Ireland" champions. Why would Club A, after winning their domestic league, securing the prize money and securing their place in Europe, bother their arses to take part in a competition that is unlikely to give much monetary gain - in terms of gate receipts, sponsorships and prize money - as evident by the success/failure of the current Setanta Cup?

The major "carrot" would be two-fold.
One, an all-Ireland League should be capable of attracting significantly greater TV money, sponsorship, corporate support than two (struggling) separate Leagues.
Two, more games against bigger/better teams, with the improved facilities they bring etc, can in time lead to bigger crowds and increased revenues for participating clubs.
As for your point about Team A (effectively) "giving up" after the Domestic Stage, that also applies mid-season with IL or LOI clubs who are not likely to win their respective League, or get relegated.
But if it were to be a problem, then there is no reason why both the IL and LOI Prize monies couldn't be pooled and paid out at the end of the All-Island phase, depending on where teams finish in the table.
Along with the relegation battle, that should certainly maintain interest.
And if even then it turned out there were still too many rather meaningless mid-table games, the League could always be reduced to 18, or even 16 teams.
As for the SC, which you seem to take as your "measuring stick", I personally think the format is too flawed for it to have been an instant success, but even despite those flaws (v.limited entry, same clubs every year, midweek games etc), it hasn't been a complete failure, neither has it been given enough time to establish itself properly (imo).




How do the respective club pay their players? If the substantial part of their incomes is generated by their domestic seasons, do they pay their players for a 18 game season and field youth players in the All-Ireland league? Would this be acceptable to players - remember a number of LOI clubs are operating as professional clubs?
Eh? :confused: How do you come to the conclusion that "the substantial part of their incomes is generated by their domestic seasons"? If you are alluding to the Prize money, I accept that this could be retained until the end of the full season is completed.
And in any case, League Prize money is only a small part of the average club's income.
Clubs will continue to generate income by traditional means: gate receipts, sponsorship, commercial activities etc. Why shouldn't e.g. Linfield vs Bohs in a top-of-the-table clash attract a decent crowd late in the season as e.g. Linfield vs Cliftonville in the early part of the season?
In fact, in these respects it would be hoped that income could be increased, since clubs would have two "prizes" to aim for (NI or ROI champions, plus AI champions), and would now have a fixture list comprising games against traditional, local opponents, as well as games against new, potentially attractive opponents from the other part of the island.

P.S. One further point re your dismissal of the Setanta Cup. For all its flaws, participating teams still value the Prize money it attracts, since it is actually very lucrative.
How much more TV money could an AIL generate, considering it would run for 9-10 months, involve twice as many clubs playing 16 times as many games, cover the entire island, and hopefully be competitive at both ends of the League, for the duration?

P.P.S. One other point which you fail to address is that whatever the prospects for an AIL (and nowhere have I claimed it would be the immediate "answer to a Maiden's prayer"), what is your alternative? For the IL is pretty moribund :(, and whilst the LOI's rather bolder attempts at reform etc have led to many decent advances, it seems to have been at the price of crippling several clubs with debts which threaten their very existence. :eek:

[osarusan]

More sponsors,more broadcast deals,bigger crowds,more money,improving facilities,improving product.....need i go on


But where is the evidence that this will happen?

Regarding crowds - apart from one game versus Linfield, will crowds rise significantly? Remember that about 60% of the games will be against the same opposition as now.

Improving facilities - why would this automatically happen? I'd imagine that most money would be spent on players to try and win the thing.

Improving product - LOI fans often talk about how far the IL is in general in terms of football quality - the only product improvement would come from the All Ireland League clubs having all the best players in the country, at the expense of any club not in the AIL, which will all be screwed as the non AIL league (or even AIL lower divisions) become even more of a graveyard than domestic football is now.

For the reasons (my opinions) I've outlined above, I wouldn't see any major increase in sponsorship for an AIL.

I know that people see me as pessimistic about an AIL, but I don't see it as being radically different in any way from what we currently have in either IL or LOI.

[Source]

Im sure this suggestion will be knocked back like everything else on this forum.
I like EG’s idea, but instead of having the league split in 2 parts i.e. Glentoran only playing other IL teams in the first part of season and LOI in second part. Change this by having teams play randomly like any other league (LOI one week, IL next). Overall prize money goes to the teams placing in AIL, but European places would be split into LOI/IL and only the results against your follow IL/LOI count.

I know this would mean having 2 leagues running at the same time, but it might help teams if they are mid-table in the AIL they could still be in with a chance of a European place, so would keep their interest going to the end of the season. The other details could be similar to what EG has pointed out i.e. relegation from your placing in the AIL. At least you won’t be travelling far every second week for away matches (particularly the IL teams) and have a few derby matches near the end of the season.

[Umberside]

I cant understand why you wouldnt want it.

More sponsors,more broadcast deals,bigger crowds,more money,improving facilities,improving product.....need i go on

It makes sense to make it happen,whats the point having 2 seperate leagues on an island of our size?
Scotland is around the same population as Ireland if not smaller,so what they have is whats achieveable here.

In fairness if it wasn't for Setanta Sports or Celtic reaching the latter stages of the UEFA Champions League then the SPL would be in very bad condition.

[Big Ears]

Im sure this suggestion will be knocked back like everything else on this forum.
I like EG’s idea, but instead of having the league split in 2 parts i.e. Glentoran only playing other IL teams in the first part of season and LOI in second part. Change this by having teams play randomly like any other league (LOI one week, IL next). Overall prize money goes to the teams placing in AIL, but European places would be split into LOI/IL and only the results against your follow IL/LOI count.

I know this would mean having 2 leagues running at the same time, but it might help teams if they are mid-table in the AIL they could still be in with a chance of a European place, so would keep their interest going to the end of the season. The other details could be similar to what EG has pointed out i.e. relegation from your placing in the AIL. At least you won’t be travelling far every second week for away matches (particularly the IL teams) and have a few derby matches near the end of the season.


It's a proposal I've had before on these forums and like you say no need to split the thing into stages. Just run the two(well three in a sense) competitions concurrently.

eg. have a 16 team AIL starting with 8 teams from NI and 8 from the ROI(yes the ROI league is stronger and although many will feel the number of teams should be weighted on current quality I doubt the IFA would run with that so 8 each). The clubs would play a random schedule like most leagues except results between two Northern Irish sides would count towards the Northern Irish Premier League table(which would just consist of the 8 teams in the AIL and hence no extra matches are required for this league to take place.
The same format would be applied to teams currently in the LOI and there would be a separate Republic of Ireland Premier League(with no additional games needing to take place).

The placings in the Northern Irish table and the placings in the Republic of Ireland table is what would decide European places(well the ones assigned for league places) for each team. The winner of each league will receive the trophy plus any associated prize money for winning their national league.

This sorts the problem of having a National League in order to remain a national side.
It sorts the problem of reduced European places, and it also doesn't force a system where you'll have all(well the majority) of your games close to home for the first half of the season(which would include all derbies), and then far away for the other half. It would also mean you don't have to play half of the teams in the league twice before you play the other half twice(a system which could bore the fans).

Underneath that I would have an AIL Division 1 North and an AIL Division 1 South.
Teams are allocated on geographical position(eg Finn Harps would be in AIL North) and not what association they belong to.
One team would be automatically promoted from each league, the runners-up from each would have a play-off, and the winner would play the side that finishes 14th in the AIL Premier Division.
If there is an imbalance from the quality of teams in the AIL Premier Division this would help fix it. The teams finishing 16th and 15th no matter what association they're from would be relegated.

I'm not sure how many teams would participate in these two division but whatever seems a reasonable number. Under this you would still have Leagues run by the National associations eg. in the ROI the FAI would still run a system similar to the A Championship(except without the reserve sides).
The winner, and possibly the runner-up(depending on how many are in the AIL Div 1) of these A Championship style leagues from both the North and the Republic would be promoted to the AIL Div 1.
If 4 teams were promoted 2 would go in each division, with which sides going in which decided by geographical reasons and not IFA sides in North, FAI sides in Premier, although normally that would be the case of what would happen anyway.

Basically this is just a long winded post of what(with the exception of prize money), where I think both individual(IFA Premier League),(FAI Premier League) and AIL Premier Division would be allocated to teams.

I know some people will say this will kill the teams playing below the AIL Premier Division and they'll be stuck even more in the graveyard than before but I don't think that's the case. I don't think teams playing in the AIL Div 1(South) would be any worse off than in the FAI First Division).

The only problems I see is with a side winning the AIL Premier Division and then being unlucky enough to finish 3rd in their domestic table, where they will end up in the first round of qualifying in the Europa League.

The national Cups would still be in place, although maybe the League Cups would be scrapped in favour of an AIL Cup,possibly under the augmentation of Setanta, otherwise the Setanta Cup would seem a bit ridiculous.
I really believe it could work(well better than the present system anyway), but maybe I'm just a dreamer.

[ifk101]

I can't see any positives from an AIL and certainly not from a LOI perspective.

1.) argument about improved playing standards; no disrespect to the Irish League but it's currently ranked on a par with the Faroe Islands League. The proposals of EG and Big Ears pool existing playing resources without separating the bad from the good (so to speak). Whilst the IL clubs would benefit from playing against LOI clubs, would LOI clubs benefit to the same extent?
2.) argument about increased revenues via sponsorship etc etc; this argument is based solely on assumptions - it doesn't have any tangible foundation. Anyways with increased revenues comes increased expenditures and what happens if the AIL fails to attract the assumed extra monies?
3.) increased crowds + better stadia; again assumptions without foundation.

Another point that I don't think has been mentioned is the geographical spread of the AIL. Munster is nearly twice the size of Northern Ireland but would be represented by only 1 club (that may or may not be existence for much longer).

Arguably, the only clubs in the IL that can currently add to the LOI are Linfield and Glentoran. Why don't these two clubs seek to join the A Championship and work their way up the LOI "pyramid" instead of creating an AIL, that ultimately from a LOI perspective, is only interested in what these two teams can bring to the table?

[Mr_Parker]

This can be debated until the cows come home, but until there is a fundemental change in the majority of boardrooms, North and South, there is little chance of any sustainable long term change.

Many boardrooms are made up from career committee men with little or no business acumen. They are always looking for the easy quick fix to their problems as EG mentioned in relation to the Platinum 1 proposals.

[osarusan]

Arguably, the only clubs in the IL that can currently add to the LOI are Linfield and Glentoran. Why don't these two clubs seek to join the A Championship and work their way up the LOI "pyramid" instead of creating an AIL

lol, very much.

[ifk101]

P.P.S. One other point which you fail to address is that whatever the prospects for an AIL (and nowhere have I claimed it would be the immediate "answer to a Maiden's prayer"), what is your alternative? For the IL is pretty moribund :(, and whilst the LOI's rather bolder attempts at reform etc have led to many decent advances, it seems to have been at the price of crippling several clubs with debts which threaten their very existence. :eek:

Here's my compromise proposal.

The IL joins the LOI A Championship as the third regional division - but as an "informal partner". By this I mean that the IL structures continue to function as they currently do - hence the retention of European Cup places, prize money etc etc., but these clubs also have assess to LOI structures - ie they'd be part of the EA Sports Cup and FAI Cup for example.

Winners of the A Championship don't necessarily have to enter the LOI First Division so say if Linfield win the A Championship they don't need to leave the IL to join the LOI First Division. However that option exists for any IL club that wins the A Championship. In this way, IL clubs that want to be "full partners" of an AIL can do so.

I think this is the most viable AIL proposal as if things don't work out as planned, the IL can easily revert back to its "independence" (for want of a better word). It also ensures that the best teams are competing in the top division on sporting merit.

[Gather round]

no disrespect to the Irish League but it's currently ranked on a par with the Faroe Islands League

Ha ha. The Irish League is actually ranked ahead of that in Wales as well as the Faeroes, while the League of Ireland is behind many smaller countries with part-time football. In short, they're both no more than mediocre, so like you I'd want same convincing that a merged league would significantly change this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficients


Another point that I don't think has been mentioned is the geographical spread of the AIL. Munster is nearly twice the size of Northern Ireland but would be represented by only 1 club (that may or may not be existence for much longer)

Put another way, Munster's problems- few senior clubs, with financial problems- can't add much to the Irish League.


Arguably, the only clubs in the IL that can currently add to the LOI are Linfield and Glentoran

I think you can make an argument for three or four in any given season, over the last five seasons maybe Portadown and Cliftonville. If semi-professional domestic football in Northern Ireland was to collapse as a result of the recession, the situation would likely be no better in the South, and the Blues and Glens could look to Scotland?