10 team league. Good or bad idea?

[sullanefc]

With Galway, Cobh and now Waterford all struggling financially, I've been thinking about this 10 team league format for next year.

Gareth Cronin was quoted as saying that Waterford's attendances are poor this year, as the likes of Cork, Bohs and Pats are not coming to town and drawing the big crowds (Newstalk, Saturday). I really don't think the 10 team league is a good idea for many reasons. It is only being brought in to suit the big teams, not the small teams, but it will eventually effect all teams IMO.

- As per the Cronin's quote above, the smaller teams in the league are going to find themselves in the first division playing against crap teams in front of low gates. That can't be good for the image of the club in the locality. Waterford struggling financially now and never do wells, such as Athlone, Kildare & Monaghan can only dream of playing premier football on their budgets.

- The big teams in the league will play each other FOUR times a season. Add in cup runs, and I for one will be sh*t sick of seeing the likes of Drogheda come to the cross and put 11 men begind the ball. Give me 5-0 wins over Cobh and exciting 3-2 wins over Galway anyday over a 0-0 or 1-0 win over Drogs. Playing big teams doesn't guarantee higher attendances, especially if you are playing the same teams every week.

- The idea behind the ten team league is so we can sustain a 10 team fully professional league. If all the teams are professional, and one of them gets relegated, what happens then? Are they going to have to continue paying the full time contracts they have with players in the first division with no money? That is even more dangerous than having an expanded top flight with more "smaller" clubs. How would Galway survive relegation this year?

- 1st division clubs who have a good season and are pushing for promotion, normally get good gates in the run in. So would it not be better to make promotion easier to achieve? 2 automatically up and a 4 way play off for the 3rd spot would make the first division more interesting and open. With a bigger premier division above that, the professional teams shouldn't have to worry about relegation and the first division teams would have a better chance of getting to play the big boys every second season or so.

[Mr A]

All of that makes perfect sense. There is an unfortunate tendency in Irish football to focus on only the few top teams and then only on short term interests when there should be a more joined up approach for improving the whole pyramid.

[Sheridan]

All things being equal, a bad idea. Too repetitive and exclusive and tending towards familiarity-based contempt.

Under present circumstances, a good idea. Only ten clubs at the very most can sustain Premier Division football at the moment. As an interim measure it would make sense, provided it's reviewed in 2-3 years.

[oldyouth]

From a financial point of view, I think it has to happen. From a footballing point of view, a 10 team league gets a bit repetitive, as experienced in the 1st Division

[sullanefc]

All things being equal, a bad idea. Too repetitive and exclusive and tending towards familiarity-based contempt.

Under present circumstances, a good idea. Only ten clubs at the very most can sustain Premier Division football at the moment. As an interim measure it would make sense, provided it's reviewed in 2-3 years.

I agree with most of that, but I don't understand the part in bold. Why is it more expensive to play in the premier division??

Cobh seem to have f*cked up royally this year, by increasing wages because they got to the premier division yet their gates haven't gone up that much (mentioned on ccfcforum). Why would a club do this? Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[passinginterest]

I'd rather see more teams introduced to make a 16 team premier division with a 10-12 team first division. The 16 teams would play each other twice, with the reduced repetition adding to the appeal of the games. With less league games teams might also start taking the league cup games more seriously. The A league would also have to be further developed below the first division, with much closer ties to junior football being encouraged. A fully professional premier division is very unlikely to be sustainable, whether it's 10 or 16 teams in the top league. At any one time the league is only ever looking likely to be able to support 5-6 full time sides.

[sullanefc]

At any one time the league is only ever looking likely to be able to support 5-6 full time sides.

Agree 100%. But does that mean we should go to a 6 team league?

[Sheridan]

Cobh seem to have f*cked up royally this year, by increasing wages because they got to the premier division yet their gates haven't gone up that much (mentioned on ccfcforum).
Increasing wages for existing players under contract doesn't make sense, but if you field a First Division standard team in the Premier and get hammered every week your gates will dip to sub-First Division levels and you'll take an additional financial pounding. Plus, there are significantly higher costs associated with hosting Premier Division games.

[GavinZac]

while I know its small consolation, 'bigger' clubs in the first division would create good competition toward going up and make it exciting for 3 or 4 or even 5 teams rather than the usual 2/3 horse race and everyone else passing time.

[A face]

At the moment i would like to see a ten-team league. Pat Devlin has fallen off the face of the earth now so is unlikely to start his whinge fest again this time (i wouldn't write it off yet though, he probably lurking in a corner somewhere waiting for his chance). I would like to see more prize money being given to first division clubs who will be coming up though.

[jebus]

Personally I think a 16 team Premier, 10 team First Division, and regional divisions propping up the whole league is the way to go. A 16 team Premier, everyone playing each other twice with one automatically down and the 15th placed team entering a playoff at semi final stage with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams in the First Division would be far more attractive for the casual fan than the current set up. I'd nearly go so far as to put the Uefa cup spots up for grabs in a play off as well. Would make for constantly exciting ends to the seasons

[Duggie]

normally i would have said no to small, but it prob makes sense. if the ten could just get there house in order though.

[Sheridan]

Personally I think a 16 team Premier, 10 team First Division, and regional divisions propping up the whole league is the way to go.
If we had a 16+ team Premier, I don't see why we'd need a national First Division at all. I've always felt it should be regionalised with perhaps a handful of inter-regional games or a single national play-off round.

[Macy]

From a Premier Division club point of view it's bad, as the repetitive nature does take it's toll in terms of quality of football and attendance. Most leagues have moved away from this format towards a larger league. The logic that it will create 10 top professional clubs automatically is flawed imo.

Obviously for the First Division clubs that would be near the top, it's also a bad thing. They miss out on the big gates that they would get from the top teams, which obviously impacts on budgets and the wider quality. Too many clubs in the first are realistically out of the promotion hunt from the very start of the division. It also encourages too much unsustainable chasing of the automatic promotion spot.

Ideally, I would like to see a 16 team league, with relegation/ promotion out of either a first or regional leagus. But as ever, I'd prefer to see decisions made on a measurable basis. We're essentially going for a 10 team league based on a whim, and if clubs "feel" it isn't working we'll change it to something else on a whim too. In the last few years we've had 10 team league, 12 team, and now back to a 10. We've had the move to summer football. None of them gave measurable targets as to what they would achieve, so we've no way of knowing one way or another.

Are the crap attendances (which are contributing to the financial problems) because of the league format or because of summer football - or has the FAI (or club promotion officers) ever bothered their hole to properly research it to find out. Has what needs to be changed to attract more people ever been researched? Has other, more initative formats ever been investigated and researched? I think we know the answer.

[Sheridan]

Genesis came up with about fifty different league formats, each one more preposterous than the last. What a pile of sh1t that report was.

The crap attendances are (outside of the prevailing cultural issues, which of course are 90% responsible) because of the crap PR and administration of most clubs. There's only so much the FAI can do about that by tinkering with anything.

[Macy]

Genesis came up with about fifty different league formats, each one more preposterous than the last. What a pile of sh1t that report was.
I did say properly researched!


The crap attendances are (outside of the prevailing cultural issues, which of course are 90% responsible) because of the crap PR and administration of most clubs. There's only so much the FAI can do about that by tinkering with anything.
Could well be, but we don't know because the potential people have never been asked in a way that would stand up to any statistical analysis.

[GavinZac]

Personally I think a 16 team Premier, 10 team First Division, and regional divisions propping up the whole league is the way to go. A 16 team Premier, everyone playing each other twice with one automatically down and the 15th placed team entering a playoff at semi final stage with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th placed teams in the First Division would be far more attractive for the casual fan than the current set up. I'd nearly go so far as to put the Uefa cup spots up for grabs in a play off as well. Would make for constantly exciting ends to the seasons

What exactly are the teams from 5th to 12th (thats 8 positions, ie.e half of any 16 team league) playing for, for the second half of the season? This would be a disaster.

[passinginterest]

Agree 100%. But does that mean we should go to a 6 team league?

No it means we should accept that the top of the league will most likely be dominated by this same number of teams regardless of whether it's 10, 12 or 16 teams in the premier division. As it is the gap between the bottom four in the premier and the top four in the first division is fairly minimal.

If 16 teams played each other twice in the premier division it would definitely add to the appeal of the big derby games, and the visits of the top sides to the lesser clubs. I think a national first division would have to be maintained to allow for promoted teams to be competitive. A regional system at this level could lead to certain regions becoming much stronger, with little or no competition in other regions making it difficult for teams to improve. regionalisation should be introduced at A championship level, with a huge drive to get junior and intermediate sides around the country involved.

I like Jebus' playoff system too. Sounds like it'd work nicely.

[passinginterest]

What exactly are the teams from 5th to 12th (thats 8 positions, ie.e half of any 16 team league) playing for, for the second half of the season? This would be a disaster.

What do they have to play for in most leagues? Usually the gaps wouldn't be that huge that a team in the top half couldn't make a run for a European place or a team in the bottom half might get dragged into a relegation battle. It would probably mean that in the last few games some teams had little to play for, prize money is the only available incentive here, but this is the case in every league, why should ours be any different?

[ndrog]

- The big teams in the league will play each other FOUR times a season. Add in cup runs, and I for one will be sh*t sick of seeing the likes of Drogheda come to the cross and put 11 men begind the ball.

Change the fc@kin record will ya for gods sake .You lot are really getting boring .The last time we came to turners cross we played some lovely football and came away worthy winners so dry your eyes and get over it ! :rolleyes:

[holidaysong]

The only benefit I see of moving from 12 to 10 teams would be to eliminate the stupid scenario of playing teams 3 times (I think even 4 times is better than uneven home and away games). But by creating a 12 team first division you are just shifting this problem down a division. I think we should find 4 more clubs and have a 16 team premier and 10 team first division.

[jebus]

If we had a 16+ team Premier, I don't see why we'd need a national First Division at all. I've always felt it should be regionalised with perhaps a handful of inter-regional games or a single national play-off round.

Wouldn't be opposed to ditching the First Division myself, only two points I will say against it are that it would cause a problem in telling the 6 excluded clubs they're out of the league, they might not be best pleased and might not want to come back if given the chance. I also think a First Division would be a good buffer zone for junior clubs making the step up. It would be hard for a club like Salthill Devon (for example) to grow a fanbase if they are getting beaten 5-0 by Cork, Bohs or whoever every week


What exactly are the teams from 5th to 12th (thats 8 positions, ie.e half of any 16 team league) playing for, for the second half of the season? This would be a disaster.

Same as in every other functioning football league across the world. Either they're happy to be free from the relegation zone, or the they are planning for trying to break into the top 4 for next season. I don't think a 16 team LoI premier would become as mundane as the Premiership either, I think the teams are more even on this island and would lead to a team in a relegation dogfight one year, possibly coming 6th or 7th the next, and that would be seen as a good achievement by their fans

[Mr A]

What exactly are the teams from 5th to 12th (thats 8 positions, ie.e half of any 16 team league) playing for, for the second half of the season? This would be a disaster.

Mid table obscurity can actually serve a useful purpose in allowing clubs there to introduce young players and to build a squad to compete in later seasons.

A very small league means all clubs are constantly pressured, and while this may lead to short term improvements in the longer term the constant search for quick fix solutions will benefit no-one.

[sullanefc]

No it means we should accept that the top of the league will most likely be dominated by this same number of teams regardless of whether it's 10, 12 or 16 teams in the premier division. As it is the gap between the bottom four in the premier and the top four in the first division is fairly minimal.


I agree with you by the way. I only posted that to show how illogical the reasoning behind the 10 team league is.

The only teams that have challenged for the league title in the last few years:
St. Pats, Bohs, Cork City, Derry City, Drogheda, Shelbourne.

May challenge in the future:
Shamrock Rovers.

Teams that will struggle to see the light of day of the premier division in its current format:
Athlone, Monaghan, Kildare.

Hard to judge Wexford and Fingal as they are only new, but every other team in between the top of the premier and the bottom of the first division are at about the same level of competitiveness. They get good crowds in the premier, and poor crowds in the first. Why are we allowing clubs to rot in the first division? If these clubs had more chances to compete in the premier, then maybe their reputations in their localities would improve. We are handicapping these clubs by reducing their chances of getting to the premier division.

Clubs that may not challenge for the league, but who need to be competing in the premier:
Sligo, Bray, Harps, UCD, Cobh, Galway, Dundalk, Waterford, Longford, Limerick,

[Rovers Maniac]

10 team league did not work before why will it work this time?

[GavinZac]

last time we came to turners cross we played some lovely footbal
Cans on the way down? Its a long ould drive.

[sullanefc]

Cans on the way down? Its a long ould drive.

Easy to play football when its only against Douglas Hall.

[pete]

10 is as good or bad as 12 teams. Teams will always struggle financially & crowds will always be lower than we would wish. None of this will change whether we have 10, 12, 14 or 16 team league.

Genesis said 10 teams & they would not have been hired if not experts?

[bray boy]

the only reason this ten team premier division appeals to me is because this season we've already played harps,galway, and ucd at home and they were the most depressing games ive been at in a long time.
im not saying we (home fans) had any sort of decent attendences for the games but all these teams simply brought no crowd down.
The only thing this ten team premier will do is mean that you'll get less of the bray v harps or galway v ucd matches and this is most definately a good thing because all they are is depressing and soul destroying to the regular fans. not to mention how simply repulsive they are to any newcomers.
yes playing each other four times is repetitive but id take that any day over the previously mentioned games!

[pineapple stu]

And you don't think that maybe, just maybe, Bray would be back in the First Division more often than not with a ten team league, so your argument is nonsense?

Agree with most posters here that it's a bad idea. If clubs are continually fighting to avoid relegation, get into Europe, etc, it makes their focus very short term. Nothing wrong with a few dead games.

The league's main problems, IMO, are the serious issues it seems to have with regards junior clubs viz relations with existing senior teams and getting new clubs in, and also the fact that the First Division is a doldrums from which it's very hard for a club to get out. These are the issues to be focussed on, not giving Drogheda/Derry/Cork an extra 50 away fans when they play each other rather than UCD/Bray/Galway

Not sure if there's the players around to make a 16-team league viable (16-team All-Ireland League for me in an ideal world), and obviously the 12-team league has its shortcomings (2 home and 1 away tie being the main one), but given a choice of 10-team and 12-team, 12-team wins it for me every time.



but if you field a First Division standard team in the Premier and get hammered every week your gates will dip to sub-First Division levels and you'll take an additional financial pounding.
The attendances thread (insert relevant disclaimer) has, to the best of my recollection, not shown a single instance of this happening. Most clubs, even if they struggle, show crowds up by at least 50% the year after promotion. I think the worst was Sligo, who were about the same, although they had a couple of very large crowds as they won the First.

[micls]

I think 10 is better than 12. The playing each other 3 times is ridiculous and can actually affect who wins the league.

I hope that playing bigger teams, with better standard of football will help increae attendances. Yes we'll be playing each other 4 times, but for most fans thats only twice(the home games).

I'm looking forward to it, as I enjoy the bigger games more but thats just a personal point. We'l have to wait and see I guess.

I wouldn't be completely against a 16 team league, could be interesting, but I dont see it automatically making anything better. Although it would give PD football a better geographical spread which might appeal to fans.

How would the divisions under it work though? Would we have enough teams for a first division?

[gufct]

From a Premier Division club point of view it's bad, as the repetitive nature does take it's toll in terms of quality of football and attendance. Most leagues have moved away from this format towards a larger league. The logic that it will create 10 top professional clubs automatically is flawed imo.

Obviously for the First Division clubs that would be near the top, it's also a bad thing. They miss out on the big gates that they would get from the top teams, which obviously impacts on budgets and the wider quality. Too many clubs in the first are realistically out of the promotion hunt from the very start of the division. It also encourages too much unsustainable chasing of the automatic promotion spot.

Ideally, I would like to see a 16 team league, with relegation/ promotion out of either a first or regional leagus. But as ever, I'd prefer to see decisions made on a measurable basis. We're essentially going for a 10 team league based on a whim, and if clubs "feel" it isn't working we'll change it to something else on a whim too. In the last few years we've had 10 team league, 12 team, and now back to a 10. We've had the move to summer football. None of them gave measurable targets as to what they would achieve, so we've no way of knowing one way or another.

Are the crap attendances (which are contributing to the financial problems) because of the league format or because of summer football - or has the FAI (or club promotion officers) ever bothered their hole to properly research it to find out. Has what needs to be changed to attract more people ever been researched? Has other, more initative formats ever been investigated and researched? I think we know the answer.

Good post macy exactly my thoughts .The end of this season could se 4/5 clubs facing extinction due to chasing the dream this season.

[jebus]

Anyone else think it might take a generation to start getting attendances up? Let's face facts here, anyone over the age of 25 that isn't already coming to LoI is probably not going to ever come on a regular basis. It's between ages of 10-25 that you need to hook new fans to a club and instill a love for the club in them, after the age of 25 I think people's interest in football wanes if anything.

The current crop of 10-25 year olds probably have already attached themselves to a club (Celtic, Liverpool, whoever) and the majority of them are already lost to this league, so what this league needs most of all is for the individual clubs to look to attract as many kids as possible. Little measures like giving away free memberships in schools*, or sending out players for sports days can help, running summer football camps can go further, especially if they are being trained by players and are given free jerseys (ever kid loves a football jersey, stick one in a Cork kit or a Kildare kit and they'll were it with the same pride, especially if they think they've earned it at these camps). That's where clubs need to start working on



* my girlfriend's younger brother (7) recently surprised me by asking if he could come along to a few games at Jackman, it turned out Limerick FC had sent out free memberships to schoolkids and he thought it was cool to be a member of an actual football club

[pineapple stu]

I hope that playing bigger teams, with better standard of football will help increae attendances.
Like it did the last time we tried this?



Anyone else think it might take a generation to start getting attendances up?
Yes. Football is supposed to be a generational thing (let's be honest here - a main reason you'd going to go watch Limerick/UCD/Galway/whatever your local part-time or poorly run full-time club is on a regular basis is because you're dragged along before youre old enough to know any better. It's the same in England. We've just missed a generation so there's no-one with any interest to take the next generation along. Fairly big gap, IMO.

[superfrank]

It's going to bore the ****e out of everyone.

Playing teams three times a season is bad enough but four is horrible.

IMO, the crowds will go down because of more games against the same teams.

[micls]

Like it did the last time we tried this?



We didnt have a CPO or marketing manager the last time we tried this. If they market it right then I think it could increase attendances. Our average attendance is already increasing(if not by much) and we are getting steadier crowds even against smaller teams.

I'd be hopeful that the lads in place could do this right.

[pineapple stu]

But is it the CPO or the 10-team league then that's increasing crowds?

I think the CPO is one of the best innovations in the league in recent years, but even still, we're on target for about a zero percent increase in crowds on last year across the league. That implies to me that Irish football has bigger problems than playing Cork four times instead of three.

[GavinZac]

But is it the CPO or the 10-team league then that's increasing crowds?

I think the CPO is one of the best innovations in the league in recent years, but even still, we're on target for about a zero percent increase in crowds on last year across the league. That implies to me that Irish football has bigger problems than playing Cork four times instead of three.

Eliminating clubs that aren't pulling their weight in terms of attendances - e.g. Cobh, UCD - immediately ups the average. You're the statistician; take UCD, Cobh and Galway out of this years attendances and how much does the average gate go up?

[micls]

But is it the CPO or the 10-team league then that's increasing crowds?

CPO is increasing our crowds in general. I think with proper marketing a 10 team league could increase them even further.




I think the CPO is one of the best innovations in the league in recent years, but even still, we're on target for about a zero percent increase in crowds on last year across the league. That implies to me that Irish football has bigger problems than playing Cork four times instead of three.

My original post made the point that I'm talking simply about whats better for City. Our attendances are on the up.

For the league's clubs overall Im not claiming it would be better.

[TonyD]

I'm absolutely in favour of increasing the Premier Division. not reducing it. If we're looking to only have a leagaue with the cream of the crop, then where do you stop ? It's common consensus (I think) that there's a fairly big gap at the moment between the top 5 (Pats, Bohs, Derry, Cork, Drogs) and the rest. does this mean we reduce it to a 5 team league ? After all, we'd be left with the best qualiy then, wouldn't we ? Half a minutes thought however and you realise how ridiculous that would be. A 16 team league would potentially re-introduce teams like Waterford, Dundalk and Limerick to the top Division, and I'm sure would do wonders for those clubs. The would have a chance to build too, without the constant all consuming fear of relegation which they'd have at the moment if they get promoted. The aim should be to increase the spread and appeal of the league,(particularly in geographical terms) not narrow it to stupid levels. There is the very real possibility that a 10 team division in a season or two could consist of Pats, Bohs, Rovers, Shels, UCD Bray, Drogheda, Sporting Fingal, Cork and Derry. That would be a disaster. We need Galway, Waterford, Dundalk, Sligo, Limerick and Finn Harps to have strong teams. There is much more chance of that if they are in the top division. So what if some teams have relatively little to play for come the end of the season ? as has been pointed out already this is the situation with leagues all over Europe. Of course 16 teams are not going to be able to sustain a full time set up (at least not in the near to medium future) but the top few will probably notice little difference to how things are now, and for the rest, it may reduce the feeling that they have to overstretch themselves and go out on a limb, paying wages they can't afford simply to try and stay in the league.(Galway) So we may have a mixture of some full time teams and mostly part time teams. Nothing wrong with that. Clubs will find their level, and over time strive to improve their position.

[micls]

How would promotion/relegation work here with 16 teams? playoffs from regional sections?

We only have 7 extra teams from the current EL one. Could we get more in to make a first division?

[Battery Rover]

Personally I think it is a bad idea. It would be of more benifit to the league as a whole for all teams to be put into the one pot for a couple of seasons to give them a chance to improve their faciliites through the extra income that teams would make from the bigger clubs visiting them once a season.

After a couple of seasons we could sit down again and look through improvements clubs have made on attendance and infrastructure and decide the best way to split the league again from there

[micls]

I dont think having all teams in one pot would necessarily increase income that much, especiall when you've 16 teams with nothing to play for basically.

[mypost]

Absolutely against a 10-team league, I don't want to be playing the same teams every couple of weeks. The prospects of playing the likes of UCD and Bray 6 times next season, including cup games does nothing for the league. Don't fancy having to go to Dalyer, Cork, Derry, UCD twice next year either. It's overkill, and we're bound to lose at least one, if not two games against them. This year, we only have to go once, barring cup games. It's very hard for fans to go to, and part-time players to play 50 games a season in all competitions. Then there's postponements. Re-scheduling games will be a nightmare.

[Battery Rover]

It would increase it above the levels we are at down here at the moment despite trying everything off the field.

I am on the radio 5 days a week, have given out 200 free season tickets for under 16s, we put up 200 posters a week. After all this all you get is an average of 400 every home game and from ones that don't go its I would go down there if you were playing a better team like Cork, Rovers etc.

There is miniscule travelling support in the first division. Other than Dundalk and Shels we probably have the biggest travelling support every week and that doesn't top 30 other than travelling to Longford and Galway. Bigger clubs bring more people and attract the sunshiners just going down to have a look.

Maybe if the FAI looked into giving CPOs across the board then we might be able to do something but without extra income our hands are tied. We are hosting an intercultural / equality evening for the Limerick 37 game next month hopefully that will have an effect in the community.

[Rovers Maniac]

BR i feel for you the Irish sporting public possess an appetite for live sport, we have a terrible culture here. We have a lovely footballing team the past few seasons and while this season are crowds are ok overall we still could have seen an improvement. FAI don't help things with these type decisions they now cater for only a few clubs and their friends. Provincial are now seen as a waste of time, the time will come with these clubs don't have a stich and it will be too late as there will have been to much damage done to the country clubs.

[blackholesun]

Similar thread going on here ...

http://srfcultrasforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6670

including this opinion that I agree strongly with

"The 10 team premier is driven by greed, so called "big clubs" looking for more derby type games to help cover the wages they cant afford. Id prefer a 16 team premier with big polulation centers of Waterford, Limerick and Galway all guarenteed to be kept up for five years to begin with. They could then focus on building club structures rather than the promotion / survival rat race. Football in this country would be better for it at the end of the 5 years."

and IMO I'd add that Ollie was a big driver of the 10 team league for obvious reasons ...

10 team league is boring, I prefer more teams and more wins against the weeker teams, than watching tight, niggly games all the time is boring.

bhs

[sligoman]

Get the FAI out of the league, they're the problem.

[sullanefc]

I'm absolutely in favour of increasing the Premier Division. not reducing it. If we're looking to only have a leagaue with the cream of the crop, then where do you stop ? It's common consensus (I think) that there's a fairly big gap at the moment between the top 5 (Pats, Bohs, Derry, Cork, Drogs) and the rest. does this mean we reduce it to a 5 team league ? After all, we'd be left with the best qualiy then, wouldn't we ? Half a minutes thought however and you realise how ridiculous that would be. A 16 team league would potentially re-introduce teams like Waterford, Dundalk and Limerick to the top Division, and I'm sure would do wonders for those clubs. The would have a chance to build too, without the constant all consuming fear of relegation which they'd have at the moment if they get promoted. The aim should be to increase the spread and appeal of the league,(particularly in geographical terms) not narrow it to stupid levels. There is the very real possibility that a 10 team division in a season or two could consist of Pats, Bohs, Rovers, Shels, UCD Bray, Drogheda, Sporting Fingal, Cork and Derry. That would be a disaster. We need Galway, Waterford, Dundalk, Sligo, Limerick and Finn Harps to have strong teams. There is much more chance of that if they are in the top division. So what if some teams have relatively little to play for come the end of the season ? as has been pointed out already this is the situation with leagues all over Europe. Of course 16 teams are not going to be able to sustain a full time set up (at least not in the near to medium future) but the top few will probably notice little difference to how things are now, and for the rest, it may reduce the feeling that they have to overstretch themselves and go out on a limb, paying wages they can't afford simply to try and stay in the league.(Galway) So we may have a mixture of some full time teams and mostly part time teams. Nothing wrong with that. Clubs will find their level, and over time strive to improve their position.

Well said that man.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Personally I think the country has too far too few eloi clubs for two divisions to be run out of. I would like to see a 16 team premier and maybe 2 eight team divisions in the first. say a north and south or east/west to go easy on their travel expenses. Or if not then a 22 team league for 5 years and see how it gets on.