View Full Version : 10 team league. Good or bad idea?
RonnieB
15/07/2008, 12:32 PM
Playing teams four times is a pain in the hole...
Black and White
15/07/2008, 12:39 PM
Very bad idea switching to 10 team premier division!!i no alot of teams are struggling financially atm but you have to look at the knock on effect that will have..if some of those teams where to drop down attendances will be poor...look at us..shels would bring the biggest crowd to oriel...no other team brings away support in the first division!Some of these teams are aslo outnumbered by our own support when we play away e.g. monaghan!!! It will also be harder for smaller teams to ever experience the premier div atmosphere as the same teams will be going up and down each year making it very boring to follow!!;)
jebus
15/07/2008, 12:43 PM
shels would bring the biggest crowd to oriel...no other team brings away support in the first division!
Play your games on something more reasonable than a Thursday and you'll get away fans coming to Oriel. About time the FAI put an end to the farce of allowing Dundalk dictate when they want to play
AnnaghRed
15/07/2008, 12:52 PM
8 and 10 team leagues totally killed attendances in the north in the mid 90's, playing each other 4 times in the league was just boring. Remember Portadown bringing out a corporate booklet and predicting average attendances of 4000, they'd have been lucky to have averaged 1500 in the 1996 championship winning season.
16 team premier in the south with 3 relegation spots and 3 regional feeder leagues.
pineapple stu
15/07/2008, 12:55 PM
3 regional feeder leagues.
Major problem with that is no one wants to enter them.
At present, a 16-team Premier would leave six other clubs plus three A League clubs. There's an ad out again for more A League clubs next year, but I'd be surprised if they got more than one or two, if any.
Louth4sam
15/07/2008, 12:56 PM
Play your games on something more reasonable than a Thursday and you'll get away fans coming to Oriel. About time the FAI put an end to the farce of allowing Dundalk dictate when they want to play
So how many fan's do limerick take to all the clubs that don't play on a Thursday?
AnnaghRed
15/07/2008, 1:02 PM
Major problem with that is no one wants to enter them.
Maybe the lack of ambition is due to the current set-up though? Have any of the junior clubs said why they can't be bothered entering the A-League?
So how many fan's do limerick take to all the clubs that don't play on a Thursday?
minimum of 30 but usually around the 50-60 mark, sometimes rising to 70-80. I wasn't there but I think we had around the 60 mark in Tolka on Friday, other examples we have had this season is 80 in Morton Stadium on our only visit there, but we dropped to about 35 for Monaghan
pineapple stu
15/07/2008, 1:03 PM
Maybe the lack of ambition is due to the current set-up though? Have any of the junior clubs said why they can't be bothered entering the A-League?
Major divisions between junior and senior football in the country. Most junior clubs are happy where they are and many actively dislike the senior set up. Just ask the Limerick fans, for example!
Major divisions between junior and senior football in the country. Most junior clubs are happy where they are and many actively dislike the senior set up. Just ask the Limerick fans, for example!
Do you want to see me cry, is that what you want?!?
:)
passerrby
15/07/2008, 1:23 PM
Personally I think the country has too far too few eloi clubs for two divisions to be run out of. I would like to see a 16 team premier and maybe 2 eight team divisions in the first. say a north and south or east/west to go easy on their travel expenses. Or if not then a 22 team league for 5 years and see how it gets on.
think this is a good idea with one team dropping out until sixteen are left then two well run regional leagues with no massive fines, no licensing and no fai buracuary to frighten potential new teams , only when they get promoted should all the crap kick in.
I believe the majority of clubs and supporters want something along these lines.
Not sure I'd go with regional leagues on reflection - an expanded first with 3 up 3 down from the premier to sit below the premier. I'd go a straight 3 down from the premier and have the play offs 3-6 of the first. It would give clubs a realistic chance of promotion (which is one of the major issues in the first imo - too many clubs start off knowing they haven't a hope of promotion), and also give relegated clubs a realistic chance of bouncing back so no need to spend crazy to survive.
holidaysong
15/07/2008, 1:34 PM
Not sure I'd go with regional leagues on reflection - an expanded first with 3 up 3 down from the premier to sit below the premier. I'd go a straight 3 down from the premier and have the play offs 3-6 of the first. It would give clubs a realistic chance of promotion (which is one of the major issues in the first imo - too many clubs start off knowing they haven't a hope of promotion), and also give relegated clubs a realistic chance of bouncing back so no need to spend crazy to survive.
I agree that more promotion spots are needed. Next year in a 12 team first division there will only be one automatic promotion spot. If the premier division team win the playoff, then one club getting promoted from 12 is just not enough!
redobit
15/07/2008, 1:56 PM
-When will the FAI realise that the big clubs need the small clubs.
-In the short term a 10 team professional league would be fantastic for irish football. The League of ireland/ FAI might get a team into the Champions league groups and everybody would say 'look how far irish football has progressed' well done ye!
-In the long term the league would become predictable, repetitive and thus boring. And when the 'power league', due to its uniformity, starts to falter and expansion is needed there will a short list of clubs to choose from as they will either have gone bust or now not have the finanical clout to make an impression as they will have rotted away in the pit that is the first division.
passerrby
15/07/2008, 2:01 PM
am not sure promotion should start right away ,for the first five years there should be great prize money to allow clubs to build for the time when they are capable of maintaining a premiership team/club without fear of overspending and falling foul of licensing. there can be relagation from the premiership to get to the 16 team. one thing i heard over the years is this "a rising tide lifts all boats" that was a margeret tatcher philosipy and it was only good for the big boats.
Cans on the way down? Its a long ould drive.
I flew actually .Were you actually at the game or are you just churning out the usual pathethic cliches we hear from Cork city fans all the time ?
SMorgan
15/07/2008, 5:08 PM
Play your games on something more reasonable than a Thursday and you'll get away fans coming to Oriel. About time the FAI put an end to the farce of allowing Dundalk dictate when they want to play
Here we are discussing poor attendances and ways of increasing crowds and you want to remove the flexibility that has allowed one club to maintain a reasonable level of support. Dundalk have tried Friday, Saturday and Sunday kickoffs only to revert back to thursdays each time. This "it doesn't suit away support" is a proven load of bull.
Here we are discussing poor attendances and ways of increasing crowds and you want to remove the flexibility that has allowed one club to maintain a reasonable level of support. Dundalk have tried Friday, Saturday and Sunday kickoffs only to revert back to thursdays each time. This "it doesn't suit away support" is a proven load of bull.
Oh I'm sorry, for you see when the Dundalk fan I replied to you, the one complaining about there never being any away fans in Oriel, said that there is never any away fans at Oriel I took is as being true. What figures do you have to prove that he was either a) lying, or b) that it hasn't affected away support
jinxy lilywhite
16/07/2008, 7:34 AM
Play your games on something more reasonable than a Thursday and you'll get away fans coming to Oriel. About time the FAI put an end to the farce of allowing Dundalk dictate when they want to play
What ya on about. We've alway played on a thursday night for the last 15 years actually even more. I was at the Limerick game when ye guys played and there wasn't even 10 Limerick supporters. Thats even including your substitutes and you didn't have much more in your home tie as well. For a so called "sport mad city" they don't get behind their home soccer team.
Anyteam can object to the scheduling of their away games. Cobh went for years having us play in Oriel on a Sunday Afternoon.
Oh I'm sorry, for you see when the Dundalk fan I replied to you, the one complaining about there never being any away fans in Oriel, said that there is never any away fans at Oriel I took is as being true. What figures do you have to prove that he was either a) lying, or b) that it hasn't affected away support
Thursday night matches have no affect on away support. The teams we play in the first have no travelling support(with the exception of Shelbourne). As was point out earlier by one of my brethern we did try to move our home games to Friday and Saturday night and the home attendences dropped. Away gates never increased as a result.
No way it's 15 years since Dundalk moved to Thursdays, and the reasoning at the time was to be able to hold birthday parties in the bar, nothing to do with it attracting more fans.
What ya on about. We've alway played on a thursday night for the last 15 years actually even more. I was at the Limerick game when ye guys played and there wasn't even 10 Limerick supporters. Thats even including your substitutes and you didn't have much more in your home tie as well. For a so called "sport mad city" they don't get behind their home soccer team.
Anyteam can object to the scheduling of their away games. Cobh went for years having us play in Oriel on a Sunday Afternoon.
Two questions though, what game did we play with 10 people watching, including substitutes? And what home game were you at that we barely had more than 10 people?
Posts like yours almost make me happy Galway were promoted ahead of Dundalk
Louth4sam
16/07/2008, 9:26 AM
Posts like yours almost make me happy Galway were promoted ahead of Dundalk
I know you don't mean that! ;)
Yes it is true that we moved to Thursdays to make use of the club bar for functions. So what? Its much needed revenue for the club. I know this doesnt suit away fans it doesnt even suit me as i live in Dublin but we have to do whats best for Dundalk FC and that's what we're doing.
What Jinxy said is true though, of all the days we've tried Thursdays do get the best home attendance with away attendance not really affected with what day its held.
jebus
16/07/2008, 10:39 AM
I know this doesnt suit away fans it doesnt even suit me as i live in Dublin but we have to do whats best for Dundalk FC and that's what we're doing.
I really don't care what Dundalk need to do for money, I just take issue with Dundalk fans coming on here mouthing about their being no away support in the First Division when their club actively go out of their way to make it harder for away supporters to get to a game
srfc1928
16/07/2008, 10:51 AM
-When will the FAI realise that the big clubs need the small clubs.
-In the short term a 10 team professional league would be fantastic for irish football. The League of ireland/ FAI might get a team into the Champions league groups and everybody would say 'look how far irish football has progressed' well done ye!
-In the long term the league would become predictable, repetitive and thus boring. And when the 'power league', due to its uniformity, starts to falter and expansion is needed there will a short list of clubs to choose from as they will either have gone bust or now not have the finanical clout to make an impression as they will have rotted away in the pit that is the first division.
I agree, by creating a 10 team premier were only widening the gulf between the bigger and smaller clubs. Maybe some short term gains, but not good for the league in the long term
Louth4sam
16/07/2008, 2:08 PM
I really don't care what Dundalk need to do for money, I just take issue with Dundalk fans coming on here mouthing about their being no away support in the First Division when their club actively go out of their way to make it harder for away supporters to get to a game
Well there is no away support in the first division, doesn't matter what day of the week you hold a game. If we held games on a Friday do you think that away attendances would shoot up? How many away fans do limerick get at their home matches playing on a Friday night (apart from Dundalk and Shels)?
I'd be surprised if anybody in the first division other than Shels would bring more than 50 supporters to Dundalk no matter what day or time we played our matches.
Stevo Da Gull
16/07/2008, 2:20 PM
I really hate the ten team league, it's too small IMO. Four times a season is too much and I don't see see any short or long-term benefits in terms of finances or attendances or anything but they can just keep on making this league harder to support... it's not like attendances can get a great deal worse.
holidaysong
16/07/2008, 2:25 PM
I really hate the ten team league, it's too small IMO. Four times a season is too much and I don't see see any short or long-term benefits in terms of finances or attendances or anything but they can just keep on making this league harder to support... it's not like attendances can get a great deal worse.
The average attendance in the premier divison probably will go up next year (especially if UCD go down) but it will only be because of getting rid of the weaker teams. It's very likely that either ourselves or Shels will go up increasing the average due to level of support for both teams. The FAI will then turn around and tell people how great they are.
At the same time, the first division will be bigger than ever and clubs that would have struggled to gain support, will be in a worse position stuck in the graveyard. The 10 team league is just a way for the self professed 'elite clubs' to close off the premier divison to other clubs.
We should be trying to spread premier divison football to other areas of the coutry by increasing the number of clubs in the division, not decreasing them!
Stevo Da Gull
16/07/2008, 2:30 PM
Fair point, there are short-term benefits but as you say no long-term benefits... maybe in 3 or 4 years they will switch back to 12 teams or they'll just go for the middle ground with an eleven team league.
The 10 team league is just a way for the self professed 'elite clubs' to close off the premier divison to other clubs.
Nail on the head. Certain clubs feel they shouldn't have to lower themselves to play the likes of UCD, Cobh and Harps. That is the driving motivation behind the 10 team premier.
Nail on the head. Certain clubs feel they shouldn't have to lower themselves to play the likes of UCD, Cobh and Harps. That is the driving motivation behind the 10 team premier.
The FAI are in charge now, not the clubs. It's up to them whether we go to a 10 team premier or not, its up to them to make sure its the best decision, even if it means upsetting the 'big' clubs.
I still think 10 is better than 12 though, the 3 games thing wrecks my head
mypost
16/07/2008, 2:54 PM
The FAI are in charge now, not the clubs. It's up to them whether we go to a 10 team premier or not, its up to them to make sure its the best decision, even if it means upsetting the 'big' clubs.
I still think 10 is better than 12 though, the 3 games thing wrecks my head
You want to play UCD 4 times a year, and you want 2 treks to Derry and 8 trips to Dublin every season.
Can't understand why?? :confused:
You want to play UCD 4 times a year, and you want 2 treks to Derry and 8 trips to Dublin every season.
Can't understand why?? :confused:
I dont particularly want those trips, but I absolutely hate the 3 times a year. Your fixtures can decide whether you win the league or not.
We're lucky this year we have Derry and Harps both at home twice, but another year with that backwards it could seriously affect you.
Im not hugely bothered about the size of the league(a bit bigger would be better) but it should always be the same amount of home and away games against each team.
The fixture list shouldn't have a big affect on who wins the league.
mypost
16/07/2008, 3:05 PM
I dont particularly want those trips, but I absolutely hate the 3 times a year. Your fixtures can decide whether you win the league or not.
We're lucky this year we have Derry and Harps both at home twice, but another year with that backwards it could seriously affect you.
Im not hugely bothered about the size of the league(a bit bigger would be better) but it should always be the same amount of home and away games against each team.
The fixture list shouldn't have a big affect on who wins the league.
We had the 4-team league for two seasons, it was a complete disaster when it came to re-scheduling games. The 3-tier is far better. At the end of the day, you win the league over 33 games, not on how many times you have to travel to x and y.
We had the 4-team league for two seasons, it was a complete disaster when it came to re-scheduling games. The 3-tier is far better. At the end of the day, you win the league over 33 games, not on how many times you have to travel to x and y.
But over the 33 games some teams play more home games than others. Surely you see the benefit of playing games at home? 3 out of the last 4 leagues were decided on the last day, with less than 3 points in it. hat extra home game can make all the difference
The 10 team league is far from ideal, but I prefer it to the 12 team one.
mypost
16/07/2008, 3:44 PM
Some teams do better away from home.
When you won the league in 2005, you were complaining about having to go to Shels twice, but it turned out that Derry were your challengers, and you had them at home twice. So it's won on the pitch, not on paper.
Some teams do better away from home.
When you won the league in 2005, you were complaining about having to go to Shels twice, but it turned out that Derry were your challengers, and you had them at home twice. So it's won on the pitch, not on paper.
What? Of course its won on the pitch, it depends what pitch though. There are many Derry fans who thought if that last match had been at the Brandywell they would have won it, and they may be right.
We'l never know but most teams see playing at home with the backing of the crowd as an advantage. Even if a team plays better away from home-some team will have more away games than home.
Either way its uneven. Fair enough if you think it has no effect on the league, but I strongly disagree, especially given how close our league is most years
mypost
16/07/2008, 4:02 PM
We've won 3 league games at home in 12 months, and 5 away. I will accept that home advantage is important in the cup, but in the league, you get what you deserve after 33 games, regardless of how many you played at home or away. We've used it for most of the past 20 years, and it's survived a 16-team league, a 10-team league, and top/bottom 6. It is not perfect, but it's the best solution available.
We've won 3 league games at home in 12 months, and 5 away. I will accept that home advantage is important in the cup, but in the league, you get what you deserve after 33 games, regardless of how many you played at home or away. We've used it for most of the past 20 years, and it's survived a 16-team league, a 10-team league, and top/bottom 6. It is the best solution available.
I disagree. I think travel and the amount of home games do have an effect.
mypost
16/07/2008, 4:16 PM
This series we got a 1-1 draw in Cork. We don't have to go there again, but in reality, it's the same use as the 0-0 draw at home to Cobh. It's still a draw and only worth a point. In 2001 Shels had two home games in the last week to win the title, whereas their rivals had 2 away. Shels still lost the league. :( In theory, playing at home is an advantage, but not always the case.
This series we got a 1-1 draw in Cork. We don't have to go there again, but in reality, it's the same use as the 0-0 draw at home to Cobh. It's still a draw and only worth a point. In 2001 Shels had two home games in the last week to win the title, whereas their rivals had 2 away. Shels still lost the league. :( In theory, playing at home is an advantage, but not always the case.
Of course not, its football. But that doesnt mean it has no affect.
The point is that its unequal, and that unequality could have an effect on the league. Maybe it wont, but it could and it shouldnt imo.
pineapple stu
16/07/2008, 4:26 PM
In 2001 Shels had two home games in the last week to win the title, whereas their rivals had 2 away. Shels still lost the league. :( In theory, playing at home is an advantage, but not always the case.
Actually, if you look up the home and away records of any senior league, you'll see that it's fact that playing at home is an advantage, not theory. You can pick one or two examples, but that doesn't prove your case over the long term, which is what micls is pointing out.
mypost
16/07/2008, 4:37 PM
What? Of course its won on the pitch, it depends what pitch though. There are many Derry fans who thought if that last match had been at the Brandywell they would have won it, and they may be right.
Both teams had more away games that season, but someone has to be at home on the last day. Derry lost the league with dropped points over the season, not on the last day. It's one game out of 33. In the cup, you might only get one game at home in a long cup run. You still have to go to the opponents and beat them.
A 10-team league is a structural nightmare, with the summer break, Europe, and postponements. Because of their cup successes, Longford in the 10-team league had to fit 6 games into the last 3 weeks of the season. So you can argue, that was unfair on them. All things considered, the 12-team division is the best there is.
Both teams had more away games that season, but someone has to be at home on the last day. Derry lost the league with dropped points over the season, not on the last day. It's one game out of 33. In the cup, you might only get one game at home in a long cup run. You still have to go to the opponents and beat them.
A 10-team league is a structural nightmare, with the summer break, Europe, and postponements. Because of their cup successes, Longford in the 10-team league had to fit 6 games into the last 3 weeks of the season. So you can argue, that was unfair on them. All things considered, the 12-team division is the best there is.
I give up. You've been given statistics that prove that playing at home gives an advantage over a series of games.
Yet you still claim that having an extra home game can have no effect in a league that is regularly decided by 1 or 2 points.
You can use as many one off games, or seasons as you want it doesnt change the fact that the inequality of the fixture list CAN affect who wins the league.
You think the 12 team is the best option, I disagree. I think its one of the worst.
mypost
16/07/2008, 5:20 PM
you still claim that having an extra home game can have no effect in a league that is regularly decided by 1 or 2 points.
The reason it's settled by few points, is because it's a highly competitive league, not because of the home/away difference. Everybody starts on zero, and plays 33 games for 90 minutes. If you win enough points over the season, you'll win the league, if you don't, you won't. 22 games is too short, 44 games is too many, so 33 is the only way you can run a 12-team league.
pineapple stu
16/07/2008, 5:23 PM
You're as bad as dcfcsteve for trying to overcome maths through English...
The reason it's settled by few points, is because it's a highly competitive league, not because of the home/away difference. Everybody starts on zero, and plays 33 games for 90 minutes. If you win enough points over the season, you'll win the league, if you don't, you won't.
Can we have a head banging against wall smilie please?
Of course you win if you get enough points, the point being teams playing at home generally(statistically) win more points. This is a fact. And if a league is decided by only a couple of points then this can come into play.
Look just forget about it. We have different opinions.
The Rebel Ram
16/07/2008, 5:24 PM
Deff a bad idea, there are part time teams near the bottom but need to be in the Prem to have any chance of becoming Pro.
A lot of people are cracking on about Cobh's financial issues. These are being addressed and will become profit and investment within the next couple of years, relegation will be the biggest worry to our finances if we go down. (which isn't going to happen).
There needs to be room for clubs to make the move up and to make money. If it is managed right, like Cobh is being now then it can be lucrative. The 10 team division will only drive the Prem and first Div further apart with any team going up going straight down again or else going bankrupt trying to survive as the cost difference between the two divisions will be huge
Can we have a head banging against wall smilie please?
Of course you win if you get enough points, the point being teams playing at home generally(statistically) win more points. This is a fact. And if a league is decided by only a couple of points then this can come into play.
Look just forget about it. We have different opinions.
I wish we had way more away games than home as our record away is far far better, we have only won 2 home league game in the past 2 seasons !
mrtndvn
17/07/2008, 1:27 AM
I'd love to see a 20 team All Ireland league. Play each other twice, Would kepp derby attendances big etc...
I personally think it's a seperate argument, as it doesn't need to be 10 teams to be play an equal number of home and away games, but I thought the figures were fairly clear with the current format that it favoured teams with the extra home game? It may have been the last time a 10 team league was tried and failed, but I think only one team of recent times had won the league with the extra away game (that was Pats 2 in a row). Might have changed since the change back to 12 teams...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.