Are we any good?

[irishbaz]

I know this may seem an odd title for this post but are we any good as a squad? I know I may look at the team through green tinted specs and in my eyes we are world beaters, but are we? As an international football team considering our resources do we have a team that deserves to be 42nd in the world? We talk about world class players do we have any

Our best players

Given, Finnan, Duff, Keane, Doyle, Reid, Reid for example are any of them world class, do they play for world class teams?

The up and coming stars are they going to be good enough? We wear our hearts on our sleeves on this forum but there is a reality that we have no world class players that teams would walk over broken glass to sign in comparison to other teams around us like France, England, Spain and Portugal who’s teams are littered with some of the best players in the world!! Maybe im having a bad day the fact that Euro 2008 is starting soon, another major competition that we are not part of!!

[tetsujin1979]

I think we have a potentially strong starting XI, that would stand up well to some of the teams at Euro 2008 (e.g. Poland, Austria) but we've lacked basic organisation for too long, and it's hard to tell how long it will take to "un-learn" these mistakes

[Dr. Ogba]

At the moment - no

Potentially - maybe

But, in short....no

[jmurphyc]

I think we have a potentially strong starting XI, that would stand up well to some of the teams at Euro 2008 (e.g. Poland, Austria) but we've lacked basic organisation for too long, and it's hard to tell how long it will take to "un-learn" these mistakes

Exactly. I think it's extremely difficult to tell just how good we are as we had an extremely poor manager for the last campaign. You can only really judge how good a team is when they are managed competently and well organised.

We don't have any players who you can define as "world class" but I would say Dunne comes very close (perhaps that's just me overrating him though) and we have a few players who have proved capable of putting in world class performances in the past. I think once we get back to doing the basics properly we have a good enough team to compete with most teams, as there are plenty of teams in Euro 2008 without any standout players.

[RogerMilla]

i dont think we are up to much , if we beat cyprus, georgia and montenegro home and away , beat bulgaria at home , and get anything off italy at all then i will call it a brilliant campaign with what our management team has to work with...

i am not expecting to be in south africa in 2010 to be honest

[irishbaz]

Un learn is an interesting take on the topic because surely what you learn at club level would be from the outset looking at "the basics" however how can you move from the day job (as such) to the national team and forget "the basics" of how to ply your trade it doesnt make sence to me. Which has me asking the question in the first place how week in and week out can you perform and then for your country revert back to under 10s football hoofing the ball up the pitch, playing the area not the man and basic errors in passing and distrabution. It doent happen in other professions! imagine if it did!!

[jbyrne]

Un learn is an interesting take on the topic because surely what you learn at club level would be from the outset looking at "the basics" however how can you move from the day job (as such) to the national team and forget "the basics" of how to ply your trade it doesnt make sence to me. Which has me asking the question in the first place how week in and week out can you perform and then for your country revert back to under 10s football hoofing the ball up the pitch, playing the area not the man and basic errors in passing and distrabution. It doent happen in other professions! imagine if it did!!

international football is supposed to be a higher standard and possibly quicker. skills break down under pressure

a lot of the Irish players play for clubs that do nothing much more than hoof it in anycase

[RogerMilla]

a lot of the Irish players play for clubs that do nothing much more than hoof it in anycase

if we can improve then they will get moves to better teams...

[irishbaz]

I agree with your point that Irish players play for some clubs that hoof the ball this is one of the points that we havnt got players palying at the highest levels of football however while international football is played at a higher level the basic skills of passing and tackling for highly paid professionals should not break down as often as it has done in matchs I have seen, unacceptable is a word that springs to mind. The key also is against recent teams mistakes were very often made when under no pressure at all!!

[youngirish]

If we have a competent manager then there's no reason why we can't emulate the likes of the Swedes or the Czechs who qualify for most of the major finals with a similar standard of player to ours and generally give a very good account of themselves.

The difference is that these teams are used to having a decent manager in charge who is usually tactically astutue and can organise them effectively to get the best out of the resources at his disposal.

We are never going to be as good as a team like Germany, Italy or France if they also have a similarly competent manager to ourselves. It's simple demographics.

To sum up though if the likes of Greece and Denmark can win the European Championsips then there's no reason why we can't at least expect to qualify regularly and even possibly progress from the group stages more often than not.

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting question but the addition of "are any of them world class" is irrelevant and unnecessary. Sweden are an example of the standard I'd like Ireland to follow. We have better players in some positions and I don't think they have any world class players - Ibrahimovic is talented but not threatening "world class" status by any stretch.

We need to be better organised and a bit smarter and you'd have to believe that Trap has the ability to achieve this.

I tyink we've got players who can compete against good teams in most positions but the whole thing for me breaks down in central midfield. In the absence of both Reids - let's face it you can't count on either being fit through the campaign - we're woefully substandard. If we can just arrive at a competitive midfield, i.e., not necessarily better than our opponents' midfield, just as good as, then ever thing else would function so much better.

The Garvan/O'Toole/Quinn trio was really encouraging at St. Mary's against England's U21 but it's a big leap of faith to think any could make a difference any time soon to the seniors.

[Greenforever]

i dont think we are up to much , if we beat cyprus, georgia and montenegro home and away , beat bulgaria at home , and get anything off italy at all then i will call it a brilliant campaign with what our management team has to work with...

i am not expecting to be in south africa in 2010 to be honest


And if we can do that an away draw in Bulgaria would get us to the play offs, and I'll take that now if it's on offer :D

I reckon we will win home against all bar Italy - 12 points

2 away wins and 2 away draws - 8 points

Total 20 points plus maybe something against Italy

23 points should guarantee 2nd spot

[irishbaz]

The addition of "are any of them world class" is irrelevant and unnecessary I don’t feel is irrelevant or indeed unnecessary the reason behind this is that every squad needs a leader someone who leads by example we don’t have that at the moment there is no spark none for younger players to look at as a talented role model, who can change the game with skill and passion (Beckham against Greece for example) my point is we don’t have and don’t appear to have any of these players on the horizon. I would be as open as saying a role model for Irish football. We have a team of grafters with varying levels of skill and the depth as you point out in central midfield is very worrying as you point out with the exception of the Reid’s the next choice appears to be Whelan and Miller and they are just not good enough in comparison to the teams we need to be dominating in matches.

[Metrostars]

I really believe it will come down to if the players listen to Trappatoni and apply what he says. They are mostly decent players and if they minimize their mistakes while playing to his plan, we can do it. Look at the half of the teams who qualified for the Euros e.g. Sweden, Greece, Russia, Czech Republic, Poland, Romania, Croatia, Turkey. I think we can be on par with them if we get our act together. He's been around and knows how to get the job done and he will know by now the team's strengths and weaknesses. Bar Italy, each team in our WC qualifying group is beatable and indeed with Italy, Trap may have something extra special up his sleave in a Jack Charlton sort of way.

[ShamrockIreland]

international football is supposed to be a higher standard and possibly quicker. skills break down under pressure

a lot of the Irish players play for clubs that do nothing much more than hoof it in anycase

The Premiership is fast and yes there is long ball at times but most games aren't like Jack Charlton LONG BALL football. I'm just thinking of players like Duff,Robbie,Any Reid,Finnan, etc etc. Do they all play long ball.

I think the Irish team lacked proper footbaling tactics and its obvious we don't have enough good players anymore. We were lucky during Charltons period we had so much quality players and even losing a calssy player like Mark Lawrenson and Beglin we still qualified for tournaments. Nowadays we've very few players playing with tops sides. Still fingers crossed we can try and start doing well again.

[irishultra]

Yes in my opinion we are one of the good teams in terms of player in the second tier of International teams. Something like this:

1.Romania
2.Croatia
3.Czech's
4.Ivory Coast
5.Russia
6.Ireland
7.Turkey
8.Mexico/USA(Not sure which)
9.Bulgaria
10.Colombia

I didn't put any thought into this list, but I'm just illustating that I believe we have a good set of players.

I honestly believe we have more class than a team like Scotland. If we got some of their organisation we would be a better team. I don't mention commitment because I believe the Irish players are committed and passionate about their country.

Its quite laughable to see teams like the North ahead of us in the rankings, when you compare the two sides. It would be like comparing Leeds to Everton.

We have potentially a very good blend of player. I notice the OP didn't mention McGeady. I believe under trap we *could* emulate Croatia.

Seriously if somehow we could mix S.Ireland, with the two Reids, with McGeady and Duff we would be a really attacking threat. We probably aren't as cultured in our play as the Croats, but there is no reason why Il Trap can't implement this into our game.



Just to note lads, was reading yesterday that when Otto Rehaggel took over Greece he lost his first game 5-1, and they were below 50 in the rankings. Look what they achieved. Obviously we wouldn't have the same depth as them, due to them having just under twice our population but our first team is better.

[irishultra]

The Premiership is fast and yes there is long ball at times but most games aren't like Jack Charlton LONG BALL football. I'm just thinking of players like Duff,Robbie,Any Reid,Finnan, etc etc. Do they all play long ball.

I think the Irish team lacked proper footbaling tactics and its obvious we don't have enough good players anymore. We were lucky during Charltons period we had so much quality players and even losing a calssy player like Mark Lawrenson and Beglin we still qualified for tournaments. Nowadays we've very few players playing with tops sides. Still fingers crossed we can try and start doing well again.

Other than Eduardo, what other players Croatian players play for top sides?

[ShamrockIreland]

Other than Eduardo, what other players Croatian players play for top sides?

Your point is that we are now going to suddenly start winning all our games again because Croatia don't have players playing in top sides? What I meant was that we had top inmjternational players and we would find it hard to see the likes or depth nowadays.It has to be said play wonderful football and their players always did. They obviously get taught their footballing skills in the proper manner we don't have that luxury as they all play for English clubs.

[paul_oshea]

Your point is that we are now going to suddenly start winning all our games again because Croatia don't have players playing in top sides? What I meant was that we had top inmjternational players and we would find it hard to see the likes or depth nowadays.It has to be said play wonderful football and their players always did. They obviously get taught their footballing skills in the proper manner we don't have that luxury as they all play for English clubs.

Ya you are right, they have nice weather and have time to play it on the ground growing up not like us sliding about the place having to hoof it upfield in case we lose it.

[irishbaz]

So 42nd place is a fair reflection of how good/bad we are as an international football team!!! 42nd at least there are only 41 teams rated higher than us but again highlights the fact that our passion outways the reality!!

[cheifo]

We have very average players who can't retain the ball for any lenght of time.
Hopefully Trap can make us stronger than the sum of our parts.
Also we need a couple of younger players to make big strides in their game and maybe take us up a notch.

[carloz]

Other than Eduardo, what other players Croatian players play for top sides?
In their squad they have players from Spartak Moscow, Werber Bremen, Shakhtar Donetsk, Panathinaikos, Monaco, Borussia Dortmund and Schalke 04. All talented European teams. It is more of a benefit to have squad players from teams like that than your Sunderlands, Readings and Man Citys.

Personally i think we are good and that we are around the cusp of the top 16 in the world. I think a lot of our problem is psycological. We had a very good chance to cement out stature as a first seed after World Cup 2002. We were first seeds for the 2004 European Championships and were in relativly easy group with Switzerland and Russia as competition. We blew it then and as a result of that we generally are in difficult groups which has an effect. I think we have a good honest squad and if they can be organised and disciplined, and be able to have good game plans particularly for away games then we have a good quality squad

[Stuttgart88]

The addition of "are any of them world class" is irrelevant and unnecessary I don’t feel is irrelevant or indeed unnecessary the reason behind this is that every squad needs a leader someone who leads by example we don’t have that at the moment there is no spark none for younger players to look at as a talented role model, who can change the game with skill and passion (Beckham against Greece for example) my point is we don’t have and don’t appear to have any of these players on the horizon. I would be as open as saying a role model for Irish football. We have a team of grafters with varying levels of skill and the depth as you point out in central midfield is very worrying as you point out with the exception of the Reid’s the next choice appears to be Whelan and Miller and they are just not good enough in comparison to the teams we need to be dominating in matches.In citing Beckham you inadvertently referred to Greece. No world class players, European Champions & 31 points out of 35 in qualification for Euro 2008. Organised and superb from set pieces. They beat Portugal twice in Portugal with a midfielder, Zagorakis, who struggled at Leicester.

It backs up my belief that you don't need great players to be a great team though I fully accept that in terms of technique and ball retention we're way below standard - it's all down to midfield. I remember watching Blackburn at The Emirates last season. Arsenal started at an amazing pace and Steven Reid looked lost. But after 15 mins or so Blackburn took charge and were unlucky not to equalise Senderos' early goal. Steven Reid was instrumental in this comeback, sitting deep, collecting and distributing the ball all evening. He and Andy Reid have what it takes between them to compete physically, use the ball cleverly and keep it rolling. Not unlike how Joe Gamble plays for Cork City and not unlike how Darren Potter did in the USA and in Denmark. That gives me belief that we can do it, and maybe adding another body into midfield allowing Andy Reid to play further forward may suit us well. But, as said above, I'll be amazed if Steven Reid is available for half our games and both Reids together for much more than a third of them.

[mark12345]

Great to see the general discoruse on this subject. First time ever (at least that I've seen on a web site) that people are talking about the real reasons we are a sub standard team.

For years people used go on about this player should be playing or that player is not worth his place, or it's the manager's fault. Bottom line is - the currency of modern day football is fluent and fluid passing and we are bankrupt in that department (must admit we've shown flashes of it...in the 0-0 draw in Paris under Kerr and home to Israel in the same campaign).

We haven't been able to put two pases together because we are uncomfortable on the ball, and we're uncomfortable because our technical ability (ie. the ability to hold onto possession despite having someone breathing down our neck) is badly lacking.

It becomes a vicious circle.

Having said all that I think that if anyone can restore our belief and bring out the little bit of techincal ability that we have, it's Giovanni Trapattoni.

[jmurphyc]

Having said all that I think that if anyone can restore our belief and bring out the little bit of techincal ability that we have, it's Giovanni Trapattoni.

Good post. The main reasons (IMO) behind the majority of our players lacking technical ability is down to the way their coached at a young age and the fact that all of our players play in Britain which is lagging behind continental Europe in this department. Although this has been discussed an awful lot and these two reasons are generally the ones that most people believe in.

In terms of how we can improve the technical side to our game right now, a fit Andy Reid will do wonders for us. If we get most of our play going through him I have no doubt that we'll look a lot better in this regard. Getting the best out of him will be absolutely crucial to our chances of qualifying.

[irishbaz]

The Steven Reid issue is another interesting one as for the last 6-7 games of the season he has ben playing at right back for blackburn with Brett Emerton and Vogel being preferred to him it was slightly worrying and now hughes has gone hopefully the next blackburn manager will play him in the central midfield birth he has put his mark on! This would improve our chances in the upcomming games if he is getting time at club level at that position

[irishfan86]

The Steven Reid issue is another interesting one as for the last 6-7 games of the season he has ben playing at right back for blackburn with Brett Emerton and Vogel being preferred to him it was slightly worrying and now hughes has gone hopefully the next blackburn manager will play him in the central midfield birth he has put his mark on! This would improve our chances in the upcomming games if he is getting time at club level at that position

He played the majority of this season in the centre except for a couple of matches.

[irishbaz]

Hughes preferred him in that position the last three home matches he played him at right back but it didnt make any sense to me at all, If Hiughes had still been there he could have found himself as a make shift right back

[ShamrockIreland]

We have very average players who can't retain the ball for any lenght of time.
Hopefully Trap can make us stronger than the sum of our parts.
Also we need a couple of younger players to make big strides in their game and maybe take us up a notch.

I agree with this but some of our players are better than average when they want to play ie Duff, Keane,A.Reid,McGeady. As for the young players heres hoping. I do believe Trap will have us working to his system but whether he can change the mindset of certain players who just lose the ball all the time I'm not so sure. It has been worrying since after the World Cup 02 how much ball we give away and the loss/retirement of decent midfielders like Matt Holland,Kinsella and RK has added to that. How can we expect the ageing Carsley to retain and distribute the ball when he hasn't really had a decent sidekick to play alongside him(S.Reid and A.Reid are always injured) is beyond me. Still lets hope some of the young players show some attitude

[Manc Irish Wolf]

What's with the negativity? At the end of the day we only lost by 1-0 on aggregate by one deflected goal to the Euro Champions favourites and 2-1 to a team who are a top 8 team (which should have been 2-2 if it hadn't been for a last minute miss). All this while under the stewardship of a weak inexperienced manager. Having the teams competing so far, there is no way that we are any less than Poland, Switzerland, Austria and I dare say another handful of teams in the competition.

We finally have a world class manager, have blooded youngsters in the previous campaign such as Doyle, McShane, McGeady & Keogh and still have players with the quality of Garvan, Scannell and O'Dea to come through. Most importantly we have Stephen Reid back who will be the fulcrum of our midfield. These players may not be the best players in the world on paper, however I like to to think the thing that sets aside our teams in the past is the passion for the shirt, which id combined with a disciplined strategy can be more effective than anything, as Greece proved in the last Euros.

Similarly, players like Cascarino, Kelly, McAteer, Babb, McLoughlin, Coyne etc. were nowhere near as strong on paper as the competing teams. However, if we can mould the team into a tight system, have belief and more importantly get behind the team (a factor that has diminished in recent years) we can beat anyone.

Keep the faith.

[Paddy Garcia]

We have very average players who can't retain the ball for any lenght of time.
Hopefully Trap can make us stronger than the sum of our parts.
Also we need a couple of younger players to make big strides in their game and maybe take us up a notch.

Dead on - I agree with this. And I think Mark 12345 has it right also.

During our more successful years it seemed that every couple of years one or two players emerged to challenge for a place in the starting line up or to strengthen the squad. Sometimes it was three like Babb, McAteer & Kelly. They provided a real boost at the time. Others emerged to make a contribution over a shorter period like Kernaghan who played a huge partin our qualification for the USA (for some stupid reason he is unpopular on this forum).

However it has been a very very lean 5 years in this respect. McGeady offers much hope, but as far as first team breakthroughs go there has been little/nothing else of genuine quality. Worse we are relying on some players who can't even get near the bench at their clubs - this was never the case when we had success in the past & it won't do for the future either.

[tricky_colour]

Dead on - I agree with this. And I think Mark 12345 has it right also.

During our more successful years it seemed that every couple of years one or two players emerged to challenge for a place in the starting line up or to strengthen the squad. Sometimes it was three like Babb, McAteer & Kelly. They provided a real boost at the time. Others emerged to make a contribution over a shorter period like Kernaghan who played a huge partin our qualification for the USA (for some stupid reason he is unpopular on this forum).

However it has been a very very lean 5 years in this respect. McGeady offers much hope, but as far as first team breakthroughs go there has been little/nothing else of genuine quality. Worse we are relying on some players who can't even get near the bench at their clubs - this was never the case when we had success in the past & it won't do for the future either.

The standard in the Premiership is way higher now than it was in the days of Babb, McAteer & Kelly. Would they get a game today?

[tetsujin1979]

The standard in the Premiership is way higher now than it was in the days of Babb, McAteer & Kelly. Would they get a game today?
Probably not at Liverpool, but you could see them playing in one of the second tier sides, someone like Portsmouth, Blackburn, Everton, etc

[Gather round]

Its quite laughable to see teams like the North ahead of us in the rankings, when you compare the two sides. It would be like comparing Leeds to Everton

It wouldn't really, if you chose those two deliberately. We had only one regular playing below English D2 level- Clingan at Forest. Our squad of championship hoofers were able to raise their game against the stronger sides. Not just for a couple of cup-ties, but in a 12 game league.


What's with the negativity? At the end of the day we only lost by 1-0 on aggregate by one deflected goal to the Euro Champions favourites and 2-1 to a team who are a top 8 team (which should have been 2-2 if it hadn't been for a last minute miss). All this while under the stewardship of a weak inexperienced manager

You finished 10 points behind the qualifiers in your group. Your two previous managers (less weak, more experienced?) also failed in the two previous series. Ye haven't beaten a higher ranked country in a qualifier since 2001.


Personally i think we are good and that we are around the cusp of the top 16 in the world

Apart from the current finalists, nine other teams outpointed you in the qualifiers. You're barely on the cusp of the top 25 in Europe.

[Paddy Garcia]

Hard to argue with that to be honest!

[SkStu]

It wouldn't really, if you chose those two deliberately. We had only one regular playing below English D2 level- Clingan at Forest. Our squad of championship hoofers were able to raise their game against the stronger sides. Not just for a couple of cup-ties, but in a 12 game league.



You finished 10 points behind the qualifiers in your group. Your two previous managers (less weak, more experienced?) also failed in the two previous series. Ye haven't beaten a higher ranked country in a qualifier since 2001.



Apart from the current finalists, nine other teams outpointed you in the qualifiers. You're barely on the cusp of the top 25 in Europe.

agreed, on current form the North is streets ahead of us. Trap can hopefully change that.

Im just surprised we are still able to convince their players to come to us... :o

"Are we any good?" The fact that we even have to ask that question really gives us our answer. No, we're not really that good. We arent terrible though. We're tough to beat at home and we have one or two quality players. Hopefully Trap can help us maximise our potential.

Has anyone noticed that (bar the hosts) every team competing in this Euro 2008 malarkey has a strong domestic league. We beat Turkey 5-0 (home) and 3-1 (away) back in the early 90's. Probably qualification for 92. Since then they had Galatasary beating Utd in the European Cup and regular qualifiers to the Champions League. The rise in their club teams has led to a rise in their international team. Same with the Greeks, formerly international whipping boys - now regularly competing in the group stages. The Swedes have a strong domestic league and decent records at club level. Its not coincidence.

Im telling you, once we can be self reliant/self sufficient only then can we aim to be as strong as those 3 teams. Until then we are wasting our time thinking of regular qualification for major tournaments. Although im sure we will get lucky and qualify for the occasional one from time to time.

[Closed Account 2]

Other than Eduardo, what other players Croatian players play for top sides?

Dario Simic plays for Milan (although not that often these days), Rakitic was very good for Schalke in the Champions League, Petric and Kovac play for Dortmund.

[Closed Account 2]

Has anyone noticed that (bar the hosts) every team competing in this Euro 2008 malarkey has a strong domestic league. We beat Turkey 5-0 (home) and 3-1 (away) back in the early 90's. Probably qualification for 92. Since then they had Galatasary beating Utd in the European Cup and regular qualifiers to the Champions League. The rise in their club teams has led to a rise in their international team. Same with the Greeks, formerly international whipping boys - now regularly competing in the group stages. The Swedes have a strong domestic league and decent records at club level. Its not coincidence.

Im telling you, once we can be self reliant/self sufficient only then can we aim to be as strong as those 3 teams. Until then we are wasting our time thinking of regular qualification for major tournaments. Although im sure we will get lucky and qualify for the occasional one from time to time.

That's only part of the argument though... teams like Paraguay, Ecuador, Serbia, Croatia and even Sweden or Poland, don't have strong domestic leagues. Yet they are more than able to compete at the top level. A lot of their players play abroad in leagues all over the world and this lets them be world class. Even if the EL was to develop into a better league we really need to export players to other leagues to develop our game.

[irishultra]

Dario Simic plays for Milan (although not that often these days), Rakitic was very good for Schalke in the Champions League, Petric and Kovac play for Dortmund.

Same Dortmund that finished 13th in Bundesliga right?

But thanks for answering the question, but McGeady was very good for Celtic in the Champions League, Ireland and Dunne play for Man City.

We are a Niko Kovac(the midfielder one) away from being on Croatia' level......blah Modric....he's proved nothing, well no more than McGeady has, and he is a little older as well.

[SkStu]

That's only part of the argument though... teams like Paraguay, Ecuador, Serbia, Croatia and even Sweden or Poland, don't have strong domestic leagues. Yet they are more than able to compete at the top level. A lot of their players play abroad in leagues all over the world and this lets them be world class. Even if the EL was to develop into a better league we really need to export players to other leagues to develop our game.

okay, for starters lets leave Paraguary & Ecuador out of this as they dont qualify out of Europe.

Croatia - Hajduk and Dinamo are well known clubs with a strong european tradition. NK Zagreb, Osijek and Rijeka are three more clubs that are strong in domestic terms. They bring through their young players and export their best. They have 2 domestic players in their squad.

Serbia - they arent even in this tournament but ill allow you to bring them up. They are only the twentieth ranked league in UEFA despite having powerhouses like Red Star and Partizan. They have only been in two major finals since the split of Yugoslavia.

Sweden - they have an ultra competitive league with a number of clubs that have done well recently in Europe. IFK, Djurgardens, Malmo, Halmstad, Hammarby and Helsingborgs. Again, like Croatia they nurture their talent and export the best. And they do it brilliantly.

Poland - a well supported league with some good teams in European terms - Legia Warsaw, Krakow and Poznan would all be fairly well known teams. In their Euro squad they have 10 domestic players.

We have no domestic players in our squad (because none are quite good enough). Our teams have never qualified for group stages of European club competition. We rely on the English league to develop our players. England didnt qualify and are famously at crisis point in terms of the amount of English born players starting each week in the Premier League - what chance do we have in such a situation? Remote. Its down to pure luck that a crop of talented players will make an impact in England simultaneously.

Why not look at the obvious link between domestic strength and international strength instead of trying to deny it and make outlandish claims (not you) that we are nearly as good as Croatia. We are not even remotely close. You say we are merely one midflieder away, irishultra? Id kill for a left back as good as Pranjic, or a centre back partnership as good as Simunic/Kovac, or a midfield partnership like Modric/Kovac or Eduardo and Olic up front. Who are you trying to kid? Youre just kidding yourself.

[Closed Account 2]

Croatia - Hajduk and Dinamo are well known clubs with a strong european tradition. NK Zagreb, Osijek and Rijeka are three more clubs that are strong in domestic terms. They bring through their young players and export their best. They have 2 domestic players in their squad..

But Hadjuk and Dinamo have not done much in Europe for the last decade or so. IIRC only Dinamo have made the group stage of the CL in the last 10 years and that was about 8-9 years ago. I appreciate that they knocked out Ajax and were very unlucky against Werder in the quals but then the flopped in the UEFA this season


Serbia - they arent even in this tournament but ill allow you to bring them up. They are only the twentieth ranked league in UEFA despite having powerhouses like Red Star and Partizan. They have only been in two major finals since the split of Yugoslavia.

They are a very strong team and when you factor into account things like the difficulty of their group (Poland, Portugal, Finland, Belgium etc) and the re-organisation after the Montenegran players left I think they had a much better showing than us. It's three finals anyway, Euro 2000, France 1998, World Cup 2006, prior to France 1998 they were banned from competitions and had issues playing home matches due to the war and sanctions. Red Star and Partizan were powerhouses, but now they are also-rans in terms of European Football. Partizan have made the group stage of the Champions League once, Crvena never. Cork ran them close 2-3 years ago (before they lost to Milan) and this season just gone they lost to Rangers.


Sweden - they have an ultra competitive league with a number of clubs that have done well recently in Europe. IFK, Djurgardens, Malmo, Halmstad, Hammarby and Helsingborgs. Again, like Croatia they nurture their talent and export the best. And they do it brilliantly.

Is the Swedish league really that strong though ? I remember Cork City beating Malmoe a few years ago, and I can't remember the last time a Swedish club was in the group stage of the Champions League (maybe AIK Solna in 1999-ish?).


Poland - a well supported league with some good teams in European terms - Legia Warsaw, Krakow and Poznan would all be fairly well known teams. In their Euro squad they have 10 domestic players.

Again, I don't think the Polish league is that strong, even Wislwa Krakow who've won most the of the last few years, have been poor in Europe.


We rely on the English league to develop our players. England didnt qualify and are famously at crisis point in terms of the amount of English born players starting each week in the Premier League - what chance do we have in such a situation? Remote. Its down to pure luck that a crop of talented players will make an impact in England simultaneously.

Exactly but my long term solution would be to encourage more of our players to move to the continent. If more of our players were exposed to different leagues and different styles of play they would develop more, and we could have better managers in a generation or so.

[Supreme feet]

For Ireland, qualification for major tournaments has always rested on our ability to beat lesser teams. For USA 94, we picked up maximum points from our games with Albania, Latvia and Lithuania. For 2002, we took 18 points out of 18 against Cyprus, Andorra and Estonia. We failed to qualify for 2006 because of two draws with Israel, two games which we dominated but missed our chances. In 2000, it was two dropped points in Macedonia that cost us. In the last campaign, we dropped points against Cyprus and Slovakia, which left us playing catch-up. In the four games, we were quite competitive against Germany and the Czechs, despite the erratic team-selections and general mismanagement of the squad.

In international football, the saying rings true; 'you don't trip over a mountain, you trip over a stone.' Scotland threw away qualification for Euro 2008 with a defeat in Georgia. Northern Ireland beat Spain, Sweden and Denmark, yet were crippled by defeats to Iceland and Latvia. If we are to be competitive, we must beat the weaker teams; I firmly believe that we have better players than Cyprus, Georgia, Montenegro and Bulgaria, and I have faith in the team's ability, particularly under such an excellent manager, to turn things around. Our players have to be ruthless and confident when playing in the green jersey - it's the manager's job to instil these qualities in the team.

In the last three-and-a-half years, respective managers have utterly failed to extract any potential from the players at their disposal. Our results couldn't have been any worse. We don't know what our best team is, as we haven't played a meaningful game since last September. Thus, we don't know how good we really are, and will only really know by next April. But I'm optimistic; I can understand how disillusioned people feel, but if I remember correctly, a similar kind of pessimism surrounded the team before the 2002 qualifiers. History can repeat itself.:)

[stojkovic]

I totally agree. Good post.

[DotTV]

agreed, on current form the North is streets ahead of us. Trap can hopefully change that.

Im just surprised we are still able to convince their players to come to us... :o

"Are we any good?" The fact that we even have to ask that question really gives us our answer. No, we're not really that good. We arent terrible though. We're tough to beat at home and we have one or two quality players. Hopefully Trap can help us maximise our potential.

Has anyone noticed that (bar the hosts) every team competing in this Euro 2008 malarkey has a strong domestic league. We beat Turkey 5-0 (home) and 3-1 (away) back in the early 90's. Probably qualification for 92. Since then they had Galatasary beating Utd in the European Cup and regular qualifiers to the Champions League. The rise in their club teams has led to a rise in their international team. Same with the Greeks, formerly international whipping boys - now regularly competing in the group stages. The Swedes have a strong domestic league and decent records at club level. Its not coincidence.Im telling you, once we can be self reliant/self sufficient only then can we aim to be as strong as those 3 teams. Until then we are wasting our time thinking of regular qualification for major tournaments. Although im sure we will get lucky and qualify for the occasional one from time to time.

This is nonsense. Two English teams played in the Champions League final with several of the English national team involved, and they didn't qualify. It's a different beast.

[GavinZac]

The Swedes have a strong history of getting beaten by Eircom League sides.

[SkStu]

This is nonsense. Two English teams played in the Champions League final with several of the English national team involved, and they didn't qualify. It's a different beast.

The English league itself is a different beast. Add to that the other major leagues in Europe. Im talking about the smaller nations such as ourselves. Surely that much is clear?

to GavinZav - a quick look through various clubs records on Wikipedia shows that your comment is not really that accurate. Id say its 50/50 between Irish teams and Swedish teams though Cork and Derry have both done their fair share to even things up but please lets not get sidetracked by that.

To edmundo - Im not necessarily saying that the individual clubs are strong - im saying the leagues themselves are. They have self sufficient clubs with decent facilities, they have a decent record at European level, they attract good crowds, decent sponsorship and they supply their national team with good domestic players and the rest of the squads are players that are too good for their domestic league.

We dont have any of that, instead relying on the english leagues to bring our talent through - the same leagues that failed English born players and thus the English international team. What chance do we have in such a climate?

Once Turkey got club football working well and successfully, international success followed. Same with the Greek clubs. And Greece was suddenly doing well. All im saying is, that if we want regular international qualification for major tournaments, we need to start at home. Our best players can still move on to better leagues.

Its pretty obvious but i dont think that this is what the majority of posters here want to read.

[Newryrep]

For 2002, we took 18 points out of 18 against Cyprus, Andorra and Estonia. We failed to qualify for 2006 because of two draws with Israel, two games which we dominated but missed our chances. In 2000, it was two dropped points in Macedonia that cost us.

Israel away we dominated ?, my recollection is we went 1-0 up after about 6 min and done absolutley nothing else until Israel deservedly equalised in the last minute. (It was the minumim they deserved). We then promptly went up the other end and I think Duff hit the post. To compound it Kerr then said we were unluckly :mad: we were a lot of things that night but were werent unlucky.

Agree with the rest of the post.

[Newryrep]

The English league itself is a different beast. Add to that the other major leagues in Europe. Im talking about the smaller nations such as ourselves. Surely that much is clear?.....................

Its pretty obvious but i dont think that this is what the majority of posters here want to read.

I think we can all agree a strong domestic league would certainly not reduce our chances of qualification.

[DotTV]

I think our big problem is that all our good young players are farmed across the sea, most get chewed up and spat out within a few years and drop out of the game. We should have some sort of acadmey for talented youngsters that is linked with the eircom league clubs, where their talent can be nurtured and used to benefit Irish football.

[stojkovic]

I think our big problem is that all our good young players are farmed across the sea, most get chewed up and spat out within a few years and drop out of the game. We should have some sort of acadmey for talented youngsters that is linked with the eircom league clubs, where their talent can be nurtured and used to benefit Irish football.

It wont happen as long as the big DDSL clubs run football in this country.