Lee Carsley

[tetsujin1979]

I get the feeling Kennedy will make a great coach. Seems almost grimly pragmatic in interviews (maybe not a bad thing at all) but was brilliantly technical as a player.
Did a great interview with Richie Sadlier on second captains a few months ago

[boovidge]

Now appointed England U21s head coach. FA must rate him highly.

[Fixer82]

Now appointed England U21s head coach. FA must rate him highly.

Fair play to him

[Olé Olé]

There was a piece in the Times on Sunday by Paul Rowan speculating about the impact of Packie Bonner rejoining the FAI on Stephen Kenny. Article stated Bonner has his doubts on Kenny. It also stated that Bonner recommended Carsley be part of Kenny's backroom staff which never transpired. Not sure if Kenny turned his nose up at Carsley but it was implied that Bonner was disappointed his recommendation was not actioned or executed.

[paul_oshea]

That sounds a little bit like old boys network and a bit petty of Bonner

[Olé Olé]

That sounds a little bit like old boys network and a bit petty of Bonner

I think the article almost implicitly tried to refute that by implying that his appointment to this role for England was vindication for Bonner's desire.

[Diggs246]

He should be offered the job after Kenny, we can pay him 500k and its a euro campaign, I think he would give us a chance

I also think he would take the job

[seanfhear]

He should be offered the job after Kenny, we can pay him 500k and its a euro campaign, I think he would give us a chance

I also think he would take the job
I doubt he would jump ship that quick but he has to be a possibility for the Irish Job at some stage especially if his coaching career continues on its upward journey.

[Strongbow10]

He will be the next England manager, that's how their system works.

Probably a name we should have been seriously considering after MON if we were going down the youth route.

Heard Kenny on with Claire Byrne the other morning, he is an appalling speaker, constantly reaching for his words, not a pre-requisite for a coach, granted. But he's not exactly an impressive presence, I don't think he will last long, Denis O'Brien will probably stump up the cash to get rid of him and hire Chris Hughton or someone like that.

[tetsujin1979]

That how their system has worked once.

[Eminence Grise]

O'Brien lost hundreds of millions two years ago when he sold INM to Mediahuis. He sold Communcorp this year. The Beacon, last I heard, was turning a profit in the low single digit millions. His focus isn't Ireland any more. He won't be stumping up for a new manager soon.

Carsley would be an interesting choice as next manager. Good player for us, good coaching pedigree. I don't think he's certain to be considered England's next manager. It's a rare enough succession line, and I wonder if being an Irish international would sit well with Ingerland fans when there are so many talented English managers like ... well so many English managers with club management experience who played for them.

[third policeman]

I wonder if being an Irish international would sit well with Ingerland fans when there are so many talented English managers like ... well so many English managers with club management experience who played for them.

Doesn’t seem to bother them when ex Irish internationals actually play for them.

[Eminence Grise]

Ouch that hurts, and will for all time... I guess the difference is Carsley, unlike certain people whose-name-is-mud (but were raised in a plastic paddy field!) never ventured back to the dark side once he played for us.

[Diggs246]

He will never be england manager without club management pedigree. Also he never played for England and isnt a household name

[pineapple stu]

I don't know. Southgate's club management career was three years at Boro, which ended with relegation and the sack. Is that really suitable pedigree?

[Diggs246]

I don't know. Southgate's club management career was three years at Boro, which ended with relegation and the sack. Is that really suitable pedigree?

But he was a highly decorated player and well known to the English public and media

[pineapple stu]

But you said -


He will never be england manager without club management pedigree.

That's the part I was replying to.

There's many a well-known highly-decorated player has been unable to make it as a manager.

[seanfhear]

I don't know. Southgate's club management career was three years at Boro, which ended with relegation and the sack. Is that really suitable pedigree?
And that showed in the World Cup semi-final against Croatia and the Final against Italy. Southgate was shown wanting in both of those games big style.

[tetsujin1979]

But he was a highly decorated player and well known to the English public and media
and,more importantly, he is English

[tetsujin1979]

This is interesting
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/12/12/failure-plan-gareth-southgates-successor-has-backed-england/

The FA appointed Lee Carsley last year, a capable coach who had a number of previous FA roles, but critically, he played for the Republic of Ireland. He was Birmingham-born but earned 40 caps for the Irish national team. He is not a potential successor to Southgate. Indeed the suggestion is that he is very much likely to be the long-term successor for the Football Association of Ireland if it does not push on with Stephen Kenny beyond Euro 2024 – or perhaps even before then. In that respect the English FA has done its development work for the FAI.

[Diggs246]

This is interesting
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2022/12/12/failure-plan-gareth-southgates-successor-has-backed-england/

very interesting !

[Stuttgart88]

Thanks FA!

[SkStu]

any chance of a copy paste?

[tetsujin1979]

any chance of a copy paste?
Google 12 foot ladder paywall
Paste the link to the article in to the site
Read for free
(doesn't work on all paywalled sites)

[SkStu]

Excellent - thanks Tets!

[Deckydee]

Google 12 foot ladder paywall
Paste the link to the article in to the site
Read for free
(doesn't work on all paywalled sites)

Wow! Thanks for the tip!

[ColourfulPeanut]

I don't see how Carsley having 40 Ireland caps prevents him from managing England, when they have no problem playing a player who has 3 of them.

[SkStu]

Interesting article, indeed. Not sure i can principally agree with this take:


The England manager must be English, for reasons that scarcely need rehearsing. This is a game based on international rules and a nation should no more be able to co-opt an Italian coach than it should co-opt an Italian left-back. Once you accept that truth...

[tetsujin1979]

Excellent - thanks Tets!
Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day
Teach a man to fish...

[third policeman]

It would be a genuinely progressive appointment. He's played football at a PL and international level, he's clearly rated as a coach, and is a motivator. I've steered clear of the Kenny debate simply because it's now beyond debate. The experiment has not worked, there are no discernible improvements in team performances, Kenny's own tactical awareness and flexibility or the prospect of qualification for a major tournament. Prolonging the agony will only condition a generation of players into an expectation of failure and mediocrity. We're almost back to where we were before Giles took over, never mind Jack. Once a country sinks to a certain level it needs more than good players to be competitive, and we are reaching that level. Whether you approve or not of 2nd and 3rd G players turning out for the international team, it's significant that we are failing to offer those players any positive incentive to play for Ireland. Kenny has a sort of humble nativist appeal and I know there are diehards who would rather wallow in the nether regions of international football than recruit "mercenaries", but in a world where more and more people have dual or multi national affiliations, harnessing the talent of the diaspora is a manifestly sensible and credible approach. 7 members of the current England squad were eligible for us. We let two escape, apparently because O'Neill thought he might be compromising their careers by tieing them to a second tier nation. 2 of them are highly unlikely to win more than a handful of caps. In the past at least a couple of them may well have accepted a call-up from Ireland, but would you want to play for Stephen Kenny?

[SkStu]

For what its worth, i approve of any recruits that will improve our playing pool (vast majority do too, i'd say) - i just think it should be well down the list in terms of our strategy.

Additionally, I think for most players it is a question of national affinity and career prospects (money) that influences these decisions. It is not a question of Kenny v. McCarthy v. Carsley - i doubt it is much of a factor at all. We didnt see Trap tip the scales in our favour from that perspective, for example. The national team coach will always be the most temporary of factors in a players deliberations and well behind national affinity and career prospects.

Carsley would be a great appointment. Still a bit of a gamble but one well worth going in on.

[third policeman]

For what its worth, i approve of any recruits that will improve our playing pool (vast majority do too, i'd say) - i just think it should be well down the list in terms of our strategy.

Additionally, I think for most players it is a question of national affinity and career prospects (money) that influences these decisions. It is not a question of Kenny v. McCarthy v. Carsley - i doubt it is much of a factor at all. We didnt see Trap tip the scales in our favour from that perspective, for example. The national team coach will always be the most temporary of factors in a players deliberations and well behind national affinity and career prospects.

Carsley would be a great appointment. Still a bit of a gamble but one well worth going in on.

Maybe my logic was a little bit oblique. I agree that career prospects are a massive influence on declaring for a nation, but a significant part of that is wether that country will qualify for tournaments? The status, track record of the manager is part of the calculation, along with the country’s recent record, quality of the squad….
But let’s be honest Kenny is never going to convince a waverer that he’s going to be playing at The World Cup finals.

[Eminence Grise]

Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day
Teach a man to fish...

... and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

[seanfhear]

... and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
And then the big shark comes ! !

[Stuttgart88]

Interesting article, indeed. Not sure i can principally agree with this take:

My reading was that there was also a kind of "natural justice" angle to his argument. "We are the largest, best-resourced football country on the planet, it's therefore a terrible indictment of our system that we'd have to recruit a foreign coach to get the best out of it. But it's OK for lesser nations to do it." I think he used the term "developing nations".

I kind of agree. The big countries shouldn't be looking at each other's coaches for their national teams but smaller countries can because they need every advantage they can get to compete.

[dynamo kerry]

7 members of the current England squad were eligible for us. We let two escape, apparently because O'Neill thought he might be compromising their careers by tieing them to a second tier nation. 2 of them are highly unlikely to win more than a handful of caps. In the past at least a couple of them may well have accepted a call-up from Ireland, but would you want to play for Stephen Kenny?

Who were the 7? Kane, maguire, rice, grealish, maguire...?

I hadn't heard that about oneill, which 2 and was that in his book?

[Snapshot]

That's a fine post from third policeman. But while happy to agree with pursuing diaspora benefits, there's something basically wrong with tying a noose around a kid's career with a two-minute competitive cameo. By all means go for the Bamfords and Nobles and hope for the best but the cameo scenario is akin to press-ganging, or a green-tinted version of the king's shilling.

[nigel-harps1954]

Who were the 7? Kane, maguire, rice, grealish, maguire...?

I hadn't heard that about oneill, which 2 and was that in his book?

Actually meant to have been nine.

Along with the four you mentioned, Bellingham, Wilson, Maddison, Gallagher and Coady.

Not sure of the links to each.

[dynamo kerry]

Actually meant to have been nine.

Along with the four you mentioned, Bellingham, Wilson, Maddison, Gallagher and Coady.

Not sure of the links to each.

Coady has a grandparent.

I'm sure I read about Gallagher before.

Maddison I had to look up. A grandparent it seems.

Bellingham dad is a son of immigrants

Wilson and Philips both 2nd gen.

.so it's actually 10... which is fascinating

Anyway we are facing all this ourselves now, polish, nigerian, Czech. Lots of people with mixed heritage.

[Stuttgart88]

Seems like there's a guy on twitter going by the name @elatedscum who correctly identifies that England needs fewer Irish players to be successful. I agree!
1602129647361314816

[seanfhear]

Seems like there's a guy on twitter going by the name @elatedscum who correctly identifies that England needs fewer Irish players to be successful. I agree!

Yeah = = We need England’s Irish Players.

[seanfhear]

Seems like there's a guy on twitter going by the name @elatedscum who correctly identifies that England needs fewer Irish players to be successful. I agree!

How bad would England be without all of the Irish Players ? ( wink wink )

[dynamo kerry]

Charming..

A fringe view I'm sure.
Anyway, Carsley as manager would be fascinating. Kenny era is struggling to an end, which is a pity but there you go, may as well try Lee who has a very different background in some ways but is also a champion of youth

[seanfhear]

Charming..

A fringe view I'm sure.
Anyway, Carsley as manager would be fascinating. Kenny era is struggling to an end, which is a pity but there you go, may as well try Lee who has a very different background in some ways but is also a champion of youth
It might even be a wind up.

[dynamo kerry]

Really?

[SkStu]

My reading was that there was also a kind of "natural justice" angle to his argument. "We are the largest, best-resourced football country on the planet, it's therefore a terrible indictment of our system that we'd have to recruit a foreign coach to get the best out of it. But it's OK for lesser nations to do it." I think he used the term "developing nations".

I kind of agree. The big countries shouldn't be looking at each other's coaches for their national teams but smaller countries can because they need every advantage they can get to compete.

Jeez, not my take on it at all but i get the point/rationale that you are making on why they should really have an English manager. The general tone of the article gave off a major "Little Englander / Rule Brittania" type vibe so he loses any benefit of the doubt in how to interpret that bit I quoted. Its weird that he doesnt consider Carsley, born in Birmingham, as English enough... The England manager "must be" English is a fairly strong, definitive statement. His follow on that it is an international game based on international rules (coaches should be subject to the same international rules as players or something) doesnt really suggest he is open to the idea of the smaller countries getting an advantage either.

[Stuttgart88]

Jeez, not my take on it at all but i get the point/rationale that you are making on why they should really have an English manager. The general tone of the article gave off a major "Little Englander / Rule Brittania" type vibe so he loses any benefit of the doubt in how to interpret that bit I quoted. Its weird that he doesnt consider Carsley, born in Birmingham, as English enough... The England manager "must be" English is a fairly strong, definitive statement. His follow on that it is an international game based on international rules (coaches should be subject to the same international rules as players or something) doesnt really suggest he is open to the idea of the smaller countries getting an advantage either.

Yeah maybe. I read the article yesterday and was only going by memory.

Edit: I just read it again. You're totally right. Maybe I'm confusing it with another article or some comments to the article on social media.

"The FA appointed Lee Carsley last year, a capable coach who had a number of previous FA roles, but critically, he played for the Republic of Ireland. He was Birmingham-born but earned 40 caps for the Irish national team. He is not a potential successor to Southgate."

and then

"The England Under-21s manager has to be a potential England manager."

I mean Jesus...

btw, that 12 foot ladder thing is brilliant. Bravo Tets!

[pineapple stu]

I think the latter comment (re the 21s manager) is more reasonable than the Carsley one in fairness. It's increasingly common (Spain the latest to do it) that the 21s manager has progressed to senior manager, so I think it's reasonable to consider career progression as part of a candidate's suitability for that role.

But that doesn't mean you can't then appoint, say, Lee Carsley instead when the time comes.

[backstothewall]

I'd be very happy with the appointment of Carsley, and I think he would take it. I don't foresee a scenario whereby England appoint him to the big job after Southgate, even on a caretaker basis. They will want either someone who is experienced and successful, or an Englishman. He ticks neither box.

The progression of underage managers to senior international side has worked well for major footballing nations. It gives the eventual manager a working knowledge of the structures and facilities the association has before eventually taking on the big job.

In our case it would, appointing Carsley would mean bringing in someone who has a working knowledge of the structures and facilities the association needs rather than has. That could be of great benefit to us.

[tetsujin1979]

Yeah maybe. I read the article yesterday and was only going by memory.

Edit: I just read it again. You're totally right. Maybe I'm confusing it with another article or some comments to the article on social media.

"The FA appointed Lee Carsley last year, a capable coach who had a number of previous FA roles, but critically, he played for the Republic of Ireland. He was Birmingham-born but earned 40 caps for the Irish national team. He is not a potential successor to Southgate."

and then

"The England Under-21s manager has to be a potential England manager."

I mean Jesus...

I was wondering how many former U21 managers have gone on to manage the senior England team, other than the current manager, and according to this - https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/england-u21/mitarbeiterhistorie/verein/9565 - three U21 managers since 1989 - Southgate, Roy Hodgson (who took charge of the U21s for one game), and Stuart Pearce, who was caretaker manager for the senior team for one game - have also managed the senior team, so that statement is patently ridiculous.


btw, that 12 foot ladder thing is brilliant. Bravo Tets!
Like I said, it doesn't work on every paywalled site, but it works on enough to make it useful