Keiren Westwood G Crewe Alexandra b.1984

[DeLorean]

Can't agree that Forde showed him up in any aspect to be honest. I always felt safer with Westwood in goals, surprisingly safe when he replaced Given originally. Assertive and erratic is a pretty fickle combination and unfortunately that's how I'd see Forde's performances generally.

[Stuttgart88]

Forde stepped Into to to the shirt like he was entitled to it, just as he took high balls with authority, like the area near his goal was his and only his.

Westwood is a different type of keeper. More agile, better reactions, better distribution ( though both have a great kick under no pressure) but not as commanding in the air.

On balance I'd pick a fit and in form Westwood over Forde, but I've never felt that Westwood was as comfortable in the shirt as Forde. However, I think it's fair to say that Westwood has always had to look over his shoulder when in possession of the shirt - often because he was Shay's deputy - whereas Forde had a clear run for a while. Westwood also had reason to lack confidence because of club situation, especially 14 months ago when Sunderland were a disaster and he was in the firing line.

[Charlie Darwin]

Westwood may not have been particularly culpable for the 6-1 defeat but he sure as hell didn't look like a safe pair of hands. Before that game I'd argue he had played well in every game for Ireland and, arguably, was better than Given for the last year or so of his reign. Forde, Portugal game aside, has looked as solid as Westwood ever did, although I don't believe Forde has Westwood's overall capability.

[OwlsFan]

Forde is too nervous on back passes for my liking and it gives the defence no confidence. Westwood is considerably ahead of him in that department and has a faultless season behind the sticks for Wednesday (where he is usually kept quite busy). In the game I was at against Derby he was commanding in the air and I am not just looking at him through blue and white striped glasses. He pulled off some very good saves against Leeds on Saturday. Whether of course he can maintain this level of play remains to be seen but he is in form at the moment.

[DeLorean]

Forde stepped Into to to the shirt like he was entitled to it, just as he took high balls with authority, like the area near his goal was his and only his.

Westwood is a different type of keeper. More agile, better reactions, better distribution ( though both have a great kick under no pressure) but not as commanding in the air.

At the risk of harping on, I don't agree that Forde took his chance with any more conviction than Westwood did, if that's what you're implying. He was very commanding under crosses but it's not as if Westwood was/is suspect in this regard. Forde does deserve a bonus point for being exceptionally good in this area, but it's more than counteracted by his nervousness and inadequacies in dealing with routine back passes. It certainly didn't appear to me that he was 'entitled' to the jersey every time he sliced one of those bad boys back into the danger area.


Westwood is a different type of keeper. More agile, better reactions, better distribution ( though both have a great kick under no pressure) but not as commanding in the air.

Totally agree, and this makes it a no-brainer as far as I'm concerned, now that they're both playing regular football.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Westwood howler means Sheffield Wednesday are trailing by two goals now.

[OwlsFan]

Yes first mistake all season but I wonder is what what happens when you're away on international duty and just on the subs' bench for the best part of two weeks. I noticed when he went in goal for the warm up against Gibraltar - he seemed very lethargic with no interest. No complaints now seeing Forde ahead of his although I didn't see the three he let in against Wolves.

[DannyInvincible]

Another clean sheet for an impressive Westwood today. He pulled off a few acrobatic saves to keep Norwich out. He really looks the part and should be our number one. Is that his ninth or tenth clean sheet of the season now?

I wonder do Sunderland regret getting rid of him given their recent defensive calamities and Mannone's comic blunder this afternoon.

[geysir]

Another clean sheet for an impressive Westwood today. He pulled off a few acrobatic saves to keep Norwich out. He really looks the part and should be our number one. Is that his ninth or tenth clean sheet of the season now?

I wonder do Sunderland regret getting rid of him given their recent defensive calamities and Mannone's comic blunder this afternoon.
When times are tough, the first instinct of the foolhardy is to get shod of the paddy.

[gastric]

When times are tough, the first instinct of the foolhardy is to get shod of the paddy.


Also, probably because he is a Catholic!

[DannyInvincible]

A good Catholic!

[gastric]

Neil Adams praises 'unbeatable' Westwood.

http://www.swfc.co.uk/news/article/norwich-boss-praises-unbeatable-westwood-2041316.aspx

[DannyInvincible]

Some videos of his form of late from Sheffield Wednesday's YouTube channel:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYhvXiutpcg

[DannyInvincible]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NBszRbGBHc

He'd also been crowned Wednesday's 'Player of the Month' for September. Not sure if that had been mentioned on here.

[DannyInvincible]

His saves against Norwich yesterday:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEgczpFhfvE

[DeLorean]

Sweet Jesus, only saw these now. The saves in the second half were truly world class. The last one reminded me his double save at Old Trafford a few years ago, not quite as good.

[OwlsFan]

Sweet Jesus, only saw these now. The saves in the second half were truly world class. The last one reminded me his double save at Old Trafford a few years ago, not quite as good.

Interesting that you should use the term "world class". That's the exact phrase both the Norwich and Wednesday managers used after the game when describing his performance. He has been the difference so far between the Owls being in the bottom 3 and their current mid-table position.

[DeLorean]

It's fantastic to see him back, full of confidence and clearly unshaken by his error a couple of weeks back. Sunderland have really killed themselves with this one. I can just imagine aul Gus watching the Football League Show after MOTD through his fingers. I'd like to think so anyway.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Reminds me of when people were saying Paddy Kenny should be in the team a few years ago.

[DeLorean]

Do - not - bite.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

You know what, that's unfair. Westwood is in superb form and showing why City were linked with him; long may it continue. It's good to have good back up for Forde.

[DannyInvincible]

I, and a few others, feel that Westwood should be our number one, but it's not solely off the back of his performances over the past few weeks. I simply think he's a better all-round keeper than Forde. I've long thought that. In fact, he probably would be our number one had it not been for his injury giving Forde the opportunity to solidify his place. Despite Westwood's club form, I don't see how the management can drop Forde without him committing an awful clanger or two, however. I'd like Westwood to be number one, but Forde committing clangers isn't something I want to see either.

[DeLorean]

Yeah I think that's fair but isn't management about making the hard calls? I mean, the goalkeeping position shouldn't be different to any other, it should go to the best player. Just because Paul Green did well in Stockholm, it didn't stop Glenn Whelan walking back into his midfield spot for Austria. That's not to say that MON agrees that Westwood is the better keeper in the first place of course, but saves like those at the weekend could genuinely be the difference between making it or not. At least two of those saves were deep in bonus territory and Westwood would have been blameless had they gone past him. I think even Forde's spectacular saves are generally ones that would have been poor had they gone in, and some of the goals he concedes I feel Westwood could have done better. We're lucky to have them both but I think Westwood is significantly better.

[SwanVsDalton]

I, and a few others, feel that Westwood should be our number one, but it's not solely off the back of his performances over the past few weeks. I simply think he's a better all-round keeper than Forde. I've long thought that. In fact, he probably would be our number one had it not been for his injury giving Forde the opportunity to solidify his place. Despite Westwood's club form, I don't see how the management can drop Forde without him committing an awful clanger or two, however. I'd like Westwood to be number one, but Forde committing clangers isn't something I want to see either.

I agree with you general point, in fact I believe an in-form Westwood to be a better keeper to. But, again, I totally disagree with the emboldened point.

Forde got an opportunity from injury but he essentially wrestled the gloves off Westwood by given our shellshocked defence some stability and command. Westwood can do the same, but he didn't do when he had the chance. Not the way Forde did when he came in. He pretty much demanded to be picked.

Not to harp on this point too much, but I do think there's a general forgetfulness about how surprisingly safe and assured Forde was when he came in, at a time when our defence was anything but.

[DeLorean]

Anybody could have been in goals for that German game and it wouldn't have made a difference. Westwood was very assured when he came in for Given. My memory was that Westwood was replaced by Mannone at Sunderland after picking up an injury, and couldn't get back in because Mannone had a decent spell while he was out. I thought he lost his place to Forde then as he wasn't playing first team football at his club? Or was he actually injured when Forde took over?

[SwanVsDalton]

Anybody could have been in goals for that German game and it wouldn't have made a difference. Westwood was very assured when he came in for Given. My memory was that Westwood was replaced by Mannone at Sunderland after picking up an injury, and couldn't get back in because Mannone had a decent spell while he was out. I thought he lost his place to Forde then as he wasn't playing first team football at his club? Or was he actually injured when Forde took over?

My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there.

We can agree to disagree, and I'm not getting at Westwood for his German performance, but I think Forde was far more commanding in his area and of his defenders when he was introduced. Particularly given how confidence-free they were when he started.

I wouldn't harp on about it so much except a) I think there is Forde's early performances are deeply undervalued by some and b) I'm a big fan of the three fish supper legend that is Fordey, as a person as much as keeper.

You ask me who's the better keeper on top form, it's got to be Westwood. But selection is trickier than that and Forde took advantage to claim the shirt.

EDIT - You might be right (http://www.thescore.ie/ireland-v-poland-david-forde-set-for-number-1-shot-782289-Feb2013/) about it being based on club form rather than injury. Although it could be said Forde partially asked the question after getting a couple of starts through injuries etc.

[paul_oshea]

DeLorean you have it spot on, thats exactly what happened.

I have to say though, looking at the saves again 3 out of 4 were either at him, or he had plenty of time to get over and react. The 4th one less so as he is moving backwards buts still gets a hand up and over to keep it out.

Forde, bar 2 games, provides aerial solidity, and that gives confidence to defenders.

[SwanVsDalton]

I have to say though, looking at the saves again 3 out of 4 were either at him, or he had plenty of time to get over and react. The 4th one less so as he is moving backwards buts still gets a hand up and over to keep it out.

The fourth one is probably the best, but the second is my favourite - something about him clawing the ball off the line when it looks like it's all but in. It was slow moving, but with the ball coming off the ground it still took fantastic reactions to keep it out.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm happy with our goalkeeping position right now. Bothnoyr best keepers are doing fine and playing regularly. While I think Westwood is better there'd need to be a catalyst for him to take over. For a competitive game. I suspect Westwood might start the USA game and if he plays well he could be seen as the guy in charge.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

I really haven't seen any reason why Forde should be dropped for Westwood. There is not much between them. Go back to Westwood's Irish performances and if you look hard enough he's far from perfect either. As someone has alluded to (this thread I think) attitude and desire might be playing a part in the decision making too.

Westwood is in fine form so far this season after 11 games, and he's had a couple of masterclasses, but Forde has had lengthy patches of form last season that were integral to Millwall staying up with a patchwork defence.

Around the time of the Greece game, he went something like 7 clean sheets in 11 games. Around the time of the Austria (h) game, he went something like 6 clean sheets in 7 games; and the dropped points against Austria can hardly be attributed solely to him, as the entire team from top to bottom was a collective bag of nerves. I think he won Player of the Season on the back of last season's form. You wouldn't find many Millwall fans doubting his use to the team.

The Paddy Kenny analogy went down badly, and his career is in the doldrums, but it was only two or three years ago that he was in great form with Leeds after getting his weight and personal life back in order and people were calling for him to be reinstated to the team.

What I'm saying is that Westwood has been class (hardly perfect) after a shaky couple of years; people are forgetting that his form didn't go unquestioned when he got one of his runs in the Sunderland team. Forde has been POTY contender at Millwall for half-a-dozen years now and has adapted grandly to Intl. football.

There is no need to change something that ain't broke. LB, 3rd choice CB, the Whelan conundrum, the Hoolahan conundrum and whittling down who plays with Keane and McGeady from the likes of Long, Walters and McClean are more pressing issues. IMO.

[Charlie Darwin]

We should be glad we have two goalkeepers in such good form at a decent level, and arguably a third in the omitted Henderson. Until Westwood is playing in a higher league than Forde, we have to assume they're at the same level and Forde is the man in control.

[Stuttgart88]

Was anyone calling for Kenny to be reinstated to the team? Were many people calling for Kenny's return to the squad? My recollection of the time is that I wouldn't have been averse to him being number 3.

[DannyInvincible]

Yeah I think that's fair but isn't management about making the hard calls? I mean, the goalkeeping position shouldn't be different to any other, it should go to the best player. Just because Paul Green did well in Stockholm, it didn't stop Glenn Whelan walking back into his midfield spot for Austria. That's not to say that MON agrees that Westwood is the better keeper in the first place of course, but saves like those at the weekend could genuinely be the difference between making it or not.

Definitely, I agree. Dropping a goalkeeper is often seen as amounting to a bolder statement or a greater upheaval for some reason than were an outfield player to be dropped for a better player. I don't know why, to be honest, but I'd like to think that O'Neill has it in him to make such tough, potentially-contentious decisions and I'd be fully in favour of him making such a call with regard to the Forde/Westwood question. Then again, as you acknowledge, maybe O'Neill simply does favour Forde as the better keeper...

[geysir]

My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there.

We can agree to disagree, and I'm not getting at Westwood for his German performance, but I think Forde was far more commanding in his area and of his defenders when he was introduced. Particularly given how confidence-free they were when he started.

I wouldn't harp on about it so much except a) I think there is Forde's early performances are deeply undervalued by some and b) I'm a big fan of the three fish supper legend that is Fordey, as a person as much as keeper.

You ask me who's the better keeper on top form, it's got to be Westwood. But selection is trickier than that and Forde took advantage to claim the shirt.

EDIT - You might be right (http://www.thescore.ie/ireland-v-poland-david-forde-set-for-number-1-shot-782289-Feb2013/) about it being based on club form rather than injury. Although it could be said Forde partially asked the question after getting a couple of starts through injuries etc.
Actually I think you have the more accurate memory on this matter, you should just know you're right when Paul says you're wrong.
When Forde made his first start in that friendly v Italy in Belgium, Westwood was injured.
the friendly against Poland came after that. Forde was first reserve to Given in a qualifier before that Italy game.

[DeLorean]

That Italian game is long before what we were actually talking about though. I presume Westwood was injured for that qualifier you're referring to because he was definitely first choice reserve at that point.

[geysir]

That Italian game is long before what we were actually talking about though. I presume Westwood was injured for that qualifier you're referring to because he was definitely first choice reserve at that point.
Time is flexible on these matters.

SXD wrote "My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there."

Forde got his chance to start v Italy when Westwood was out injured.
Later Westwood was first choice to replace Shay, but when benched and injured with Sunderland for 6 months, then Forde became nr at that Poland game.

[paul_oshea]

How can you be benched and injured at the same time or are you trying to run the two together to make it look like you're right and mask your assertion about benching rather than being injured initially when forde got his chance?

[DeLorean]

Time is flexible on these matters.

SXD wrote "My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there."

Technically it could be spun that way but, given the article SvD linked, I reckon we were on the same wavelength, and discussing the coming about of Forde overtaking Westwood post-Euros.

[geysir]

Technically it could be spun that way but, given the article SvD linked, I reckon we were on the same wavelength, and discussing the coming about of Forde overtaking Westwood post-Euros.
I'm not spinning anything. SvD was just recalling a memory, that Forde got a look in when Westwood was injured, his memory was vague when that event happened. I merely pointed out the game where it did happen, not at the Poland game as he thought but at the italy friendly.
One can have mixed in time memories :)

[geysir]

How can you be benched and injured at the same time or are you trying to run the two together to make it look like you're right and mask your assertion about benching rather than being injured initially when forde got his chance?
;)
Perhaps if I had written that Westwood was benched/ injured at Sunderland for a 6 month period prior to the Poland game. it might have been clearer for you.
He was injured for some of the time and when he was fit he mainly sat on the bench. His shoulder and neck injuries are a matter of public record. He only played 3 league cup games for Sunderland and none since Oct 2012 before the Poland friendly Feb 2013 when Forde started. For that game, Forde was chosen ahead of Westwood.

In your paranoid head, what exactly was I trying to mask?

[DeLorean]

I'm not spinning anything. SvD was just recalling a memory, that Forde got a look in when Westwood was injured, his memory was vague when that event happened. I merely pointed out the game where it did happen, not at the Poland game as he thought but at the italy friendly.
One can have mixed in time memories :)

Well you said SvD's memory was more accurate on this matter. That depends on what SvD meant by...

"My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there."

If SvD did mean that Forde got a look-in, when Westwood was injured back in June of 2011 against Italy, then you are correct. I don't think that's what he meant though. We were talking about when Forde took over from Westwood post-Euros, and he thought that an injury to Westwood gave Forde his chance at that point, when in fact it was Westwood's lack of first team football, albeit caused by an injury! If it is the latter, then I think you could say...


[SvD] took a blind shot on goal, it was going well wide of the mark until it took a wicked deflection for a corner.

You Geysir, are the wicked deflection.

:D

[DeLorean]

Reading a bit of the Keane book last night actually and he was talking about goalkeepers. He was saying how Craig Gordon was applauded off the field by the other players, after his first training session with Sunderland. Keane said it was the only time he's ever seen that. He was out of this world by all accounts.

He then talked about how he didn't quite take goalkeepers for granted (eg. Schmeichel, Packie) but that he always felt that they were only doing what you'd expect them to do. He said it's only when you have a bad one that you fully appreciate the good ones. Shay Given didn't get a solitary mention in the book, make of that what you will.

[Stuttgart88]

I see shades of Roy Keane in Paul O'Shea.

[SwanVsDalton]

Well you said SvD's memory was more accurate on this matter. That depends on what SvD meant by...

"My memory was an injury gave him a look-in and his performances, combined with Westwood being benched, kept him there."

If SvD did mean that Forde got a look-in, when Westwood was injured back in June of 2011 against Italy, then you are correct. I don't think that's what he meant though. We were talking about when Forde took over from Westwood post-Euros, and he thought that an injury to Westwood gave Forde his chance at that point, when in fact it was Westwood's lack of first team football, albeit caused by an injury! If it is the latter, then I think you could say...



You Geysir, are the wicked deflection.

:D

Considering I edited it for clarity and said those rarest of rare foot.ie words ('You might be right...') AND then said previous injuries possibly allowed Forde to ask the question, what exactly is the debate over what I said? :)

[BonnieShels]

Why do you continue to question Paul's reasoning?

He's on a higher intellectual plane. You have no right to question him Danny.

[gastric]

Why do you continue to question Paul's reasoning?

He's on a higher intellectual plane. You have no right to question him Danny.

Cop on Bonnie. A Mayo man with a high intellectual plane. A misnomer if ever there was one!;)

[BonnieShels]

He's from Roscommon I'll have you know.

[gastric]

Then I will repeat the claim leaving the smiley face out! Definitely a misnomer.

[Charlie Darwin]

After a string of horrendous performances, Mannone has been dropped for Pantillimon. Obviously the move was right for Westwood at the time, but still goes to show Mannone is no great shakes and Westwood could have played him out of the team.

[gastric]

More praise for Eastwood, this time from Steve Evans.

http://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/sheff-weds/sheffield-wednesday-keiren-westwood-praised-by-rotherham-united-boss-steve-evans-1-6939136