Bohs fan fails to get 'hooligan associates' ban lifted

[A face]

I think this gets to the nub of the issue, though perhaps not quite how you meant! "Normal" fans like you and me can see the damage hooliganism, even a hooligan image, can do to the game.
However, the hoolies themselves don't see it that way. The hard core, at least, genuinely see themselves as the "real" supporters of the club i.e. they will even risk getting hurt to demonstrate that support. Indeed, should a club's on-field fortunes decline, so that the general support starts to drift away, these hoolies carry it as a "badge of honour" that they are sticking with the club regardless. In fact, they often make a virtue out of it: i.e. "we may not be the best team, but we're the hardest etc".

Good post but i even think that gives them more credit that they deserve.

Lets face it, a lot of these guy have issues, dysfunctional background, they come from a social crisis area, they have behavioural problems and this is just a means interacting with their counterparts as a very basic and primitive level, the lowest common denominator or else they were just the guys that were always singled out as 'no hopers', guys that would never be able to get it together enough to do anything with themselves and they are just fufilling this prophesy.

Is not actually a football related issue in the wider scheme of things, its a social problem. They are skangers but they are skangers that cant function on their own, either because they are intimidated when not in a group, ala cowards or the behavioural issues they have, the limited social skills forcing them to exist like this. I'd say alot of them should be in some sort of care.

[superfrank]

I totally disagree with this decision by Bohs.

It's a terrible way to treat a fan of the club. He hasn't done anything wrong, as Bohs have said, and yet they still think he should be punished because of who his friends are.

There should be a crackdown on the hooligan elements in the league but it should be on those people actively involved in it, not "associates".

I also don't agree with this idea that being friends with a hooligan makes you as bad as them. We all have friends who do things that we wouldn't do, whether it be hooliganism, drug-dealing, whatever. But unless we help them out, we're not guilty for what they do.

I'm guessing this guy was found to be an "associate" of hooligans because Bohs had a list of hooligans. I guess they banned them as well. Therefore, he wouldn't have been associating with them at a Bohs match or around Dalymount. How did Bohs find out he "associates" with them then? And is it really the business of a football club, who gladly accepted his money for years, to make judgements on what a person does when he isn't anywhere near the club?

This is a dangerous precedent set by Bohs, and upheld by the Courts. Who knows how many other Bohs fans, or fans at other clubs for that matter, "associate" with hooligans?

[EalingGreen]

Good post but i even think that gives them more credit that they deserve.

Lets face it, a lot of these guy have issues, dysfunctional background, they come from a social crisis area, they have behavioural problems and this is just a means interacting with their counterparts as a very basic and primitive level, the lowest common denominator or else they were just the guys that were always singled out as 'no hopers', guys that would never be able to get it together enough to do anything with themselves and they are just fufilling this prophesy.

Is not actually a football related issue in the wider scheme of things, its a social problem. They are skangers but they are skangers that cant function on their own, either because they are intimidated when not in a group, ala cowards or the behavioural issues they have, the limited social skills forcing them to exist like this. I'd say alot of them should be in some sort of care.

What you say is correct, I'm sure for many of the hoolies (and especially for the hangers-on on the fringes, I'd guess).

But whilst circumstances might be different in Dublin/Eircom (I wouldn't know), we shouldn't underestimate all hoolies as "dysfunctional no-hopers" etc.

In England, at least, surprising numbers of the hard core thugs who persist with hooliganism beyond their teenage years (i.e. after many impressionable youngsters drop out) are otherwise functioning members of society, with "respectable" jobs, wives, families etc. OK, we mightn't be talking about the members of the Metropolitan Elites who fill the glossy magazines, or get featured in the Economist etc, but it's by no means unknown for them to be teachers, bank workers, self-employed tradesmen etc.

As such, their choice of recreational behaviour is entirely "rational" i.e. they're in a suit and tie five days a week, so they go out with one set of friends on a Friday night, take the family out shopping etc on a Sunday and Saturdays are "at the football with the lads".

This gives them the opportunity to indulge one of their passions, which is running around in a gang, on the look out for a rumble. To be quite honest, that is little different from other people who seek their thrills by other hazardous means, whether it be by rock climbing, motor racing, hang gliding etc*, or even those who take it further and join the Army or something (i.e. to do it full time)

Of course, it is entirely different in the key sense that these other activities are all entirely legitimate and lawful, so no excuse should be made for the hoolies. But imo the reason why society has at best only managed to suppress football hooliganism, rather than eradicate it entirely, is because the authorities (both inside and outside football) still fail to understand why many hoolies do what they do.

Quite simply, they do it because they enjoy it, and the price they have to pay for their enjoyment (the occasional kicking, arrest, fine etc) is generally low enough to be one worth paying for their "fun". A good example of this is seen in England where at club level, the various local constabularies eventually managed to clamp down on the known hooligans on their own patch. So the hoolies started concentrating only on away games. So the police responded by sending "spotters" along to assist the local police. So then the hoolies responded by concentrating their efforts on overseas games (club, Ingurland etc), where the local police were invariably utterly unprepared, and any hoolies that did get detained were usually just thrown out the country, since the locals just wanted rid of them without the hassle and expense of Courts and prisons etc. And as the UK authorities have responded to this latest development with Banning Orders etc (i.e. surrender Passports, report to local Police Stations etc), the hoolies are now switching to organising matchday fights by Internet, Mobiles etc, at locations often well away from the actual stadium, often hours before or after the game, so as to keep the cops guessing. If you think about it in their terms, this is actually very rational behaviour, however deplorable. Moreover, it is the actions of people who are anything but dysfunctional or incapable of organisation.

Consequently, unless or until all the relevant agencies (clubs, decent fans, police, courts etc) combine to enforce a concerted and long-term campaign, resulting in the price to the hoolies becoming too high to pay, then we will continue to have to suffer these scumbags, to a greater or lesser degree.

* - With all due apologies to any rock climbers, motor racers or hang gliders who may be reading. (I mean to say, you may be "mad", but that doesn't make you "bad" or "dangerous to know"! ;))

[passerrby]

I have to assume that bohs did not take this dicision lightly and have excellent reasons for not wanting this person from "supporting" their club.

[Macy]

This is a dangerous precedent set by Bohs, and upheld by the Courts. Who knows how many other Bohs fans, or fans at other clubs for that matter, "associate" with hooligans?
He's only failed in getting the ban lifted in lieu of the full hearing, it hasn't actually been upheld. Hopefully they'll be run out of court and have to pay mucho compensation, as I agree it's ridiculous.

Going on the report in the paper, it seems that the worst he did was get the same scheduled plane from Dublin to Cork as the BSC and end up entering the ground with them, unless the BSC are now scheduling planes as well?

If they have evidence produce it and ban him on that, if not he shouldn't be guilty by association.


I have to assume that bohs did not take this dicision lightly and have excellent reasons for not wanting this person from "supporting" their club.
If they have, Then they should use those reasons to ban him.

[OneRedArmy]

I find the presumption that owners of private property should be required to demonstrate the reasons for exclusion of someone to what is effectively a criminal standard of proof absolutely ridiculous (which is what many of the posters on here are stating).

Surely this is the equivalent of a club bouncer saying "not in those shoes", ie you don't get a right to due process. Are his civil liberties being infringed by being denied access to a football match? Again, I don't think so.

Its possible that Bohs may come unstuck through communicating to Cork that this guy was a trouble maker, but if they only communicated the fact that he was barred from Dalymount, then again this is questionable.

A lot of the moral outrage here ignores what rights you have and don't have as an individual under the law of this land.

Make no mistake, if judgment favours the banned individual the impact of precedent on nightclubs etc who frequently refuse entry on "spurious" grounds could be huge.

[geysir]

Going on the report in the paper, it seems that the worst he did was get the same scheduled plane from Dublin to Cork as the BSC and end up entering the ground with them, unless the BSC are now scheduling planes as well?

If they have evidence produce it and ban him on that, if not he shouldn't be guilty by association.

If they have, Then they should use those reasons to ban him.
Association is a serious offense, already agreed upon by the Bohs membership.
'There is no place in the Bohemian Football Club for groups who espouse, advocate or support such behaviour. Any person attached to such groups, associating with known members of such groups, or supporting or condoning the group itself or its activities, either implicitly or tacitly, will be banned from Dalymount Park and, if appropriate, have their membership revoked.'


Bohs have exercised their right to refuse him entry to Dalymount
but by what right are the other clubs banning him entry to their grounds?

[A face]

Bohs have exercised their right to refuse him entry to Dalymount but by what right are the other clubs banning him entry to their grounds?

'Not tonight son, you're not wearing the right shoes!" .... its as easy as that.

There is no way that this will come undone. If the club(s) dont want to admit him then they dont have to. Its that simple.

Can anyone see a judge letting this fly and lift the ban

If months down that line something serious happens like someone gets stabbed, Bohs surely couldn't be held culpable given that judge undermined efforts to avoid things like this happening.

Do Bohs keep recordings from their CCTV footage?

[geysir]

I understand that unless there is a law specifically prohibiting discrimination against people who are wearing for example, denims, hoods, trainers, then a nightclub can discriminate according to its publicly stated policy re dress code.
But they couldn't legally discriminate on racial grounds.

I still think there has to be/or should be, that each LOI club has some common adopted public "solidarity" policy in writing, e.g. "barred from one then barred from all".

[Docboy]

Some pretty right-wing sentiments being expressed here lads. Guilty by association, gives me a shiver just thinking about it. Surely you must realise that life is bit more complex than that. What if he knows these people his whole life, just because he'll acknowledge them doesn't necessarily mean he condones their behaviour.

That said I don't the full circumstances, just commenting on the perceived injustice.

[A face]

Some pretty right-wing sentiments being expressed here lads. Guilty by association, gives me a shiver just thinking about it. Surely you must realise that life is bit more complex than that. What if he knows these people his whole life, just because he'll acknowledge them doesn't necessarily mean he condones their behaviour.

That said I don't the full circumstances, just commenting on the perceived injustice.

I hear what you're saying but man, i just want shot of these hangers-on scumbag idiots who if given an inch will destroy our league.

Can anyone that knows them tell them to go to England to live, they would love it there, its ready made and its only waiting for them. Fawk off and leave this league alone. And i'm serious, alot of them probably have English teams as well, go follow them. Its an option available to them, go there. They'd fit right in.

[Greenforever]

If it is true that this guy isn't allowed support the team he followed all his life because he associates with thugs than it is an absolute disgrace. Just think of how hard it would be to take if you were told you can't support your team or watch them play because you occasionaly talk to someone who acts like a thug. I'd be both gutted and disgusted with city if they did that to me

So would you be happy to associate with thugs that were causing trouble at City?

[pól-dcfc]

So would you be happy to associate with thugs that were causing trouble at City?

That's not at all what he said.

[Greenforever]

That's not at all what he said.

No but i think it's been well established that the banned fan has been banned for that very reason.

[pól-dcfc]

No but i think it's been well established that the banned fan has been banned for that very reason.


It is. But that still doesn't mean your comment was valid.

[A face]

It is. But that still doesn't mean your comment was valid.

Maybe not but it is getting us no where.


And in the whole thread no one has laid any of the blame on the BSC. they get away with it scott free. Why is that i wonder?

[pól-dcfc]

Maybe not but it is getting us no where.


And in the whole thread no one has laid any of the blame on the BSC. they get away with it scott free. Why is that i wonder?

We're all scared of them!

[Macy]

And in the whole thread no one has laid any of the blame on the BSC. they get away with it scott free. Why is that i wonder?
Because it's a thread about Bohs banning fan for doing nothing, not about the BSC?

I have acquaintances who I'd share a pint with, and indeed friends - who do things or hold views I don't agree with. It'd be ridiculous to judge me on the basis of what others do or views they hold.

[Greenforever]

It is. But that still doesn't mean your comment was valid.


Do you ever stop to think what keeps families from going to EL games in larger numbers?

BOHS are trying to do something about their problem and make DAlyer a welcoming environment for families etc, if a "supporter" has a problem with this really he should go some where else.

Tell me if your local boozer had a policy you didn't agree with would you be bothered going to court to get them to change or would you find another boozer?

[pól-dcfc]

Do you ever stop to think what keeps families from going to EL games in larger numbers?

Again, nothing to do with what was posted by myself or joey.


BOHS are trying to do something about their problem and make DAlyer a welcoming environment for families etc, if a "supporter" has a problem with this really he should go some where else.

Tell me if your local boozer had a policy you didn't agree with would you be bothered going to court to get them to change or would you find another boozer?

I haven't said whether or not I support the ban anywhere on this thread so far.

For the record, I think Bohs probably had there reasons for banning him in the first place, and fair play to them for sticking to their guns in court. Hooliganism must be stamped out in Ireland before it develops into something worse.

[Macy]

Do you ever stop to think what keeps families from going to EL games in larger numbers?
Lazyiness of the parents looking for excuses not to bother their hole. Can be quality of facilities, standard of football, hooliganism - which ever is most appropriate this week.

[pól-dcfc]

Do you ever stop to think what keeps families from going to EL games in larger numbers?


And on that point, I'm sure hooliganism is far down that particular list. It isn't a major problem here yet. Expense of tickets, poor facilities, the lure of televised football and a lack of advertising would, I'm sure, be more of a reason for people staying away from the LoI. Not to mention the general disintegration of community spirit in Ireland and the decline of the blue collar workforce, the traditional body of support for football. Oh, and percieved 'rubbish' standard of play, and a lack of roots in the locality of the ground.

[dcfcsteve]

Some pretty right-wing sentiments being expressed here lads. Guilty by association, gives me a shiver just thinking about it. Surely you must realise that life is bit more complex than that. What if he knows these people his whole life, just because he'll acknowledge them doesn't necessarily mean he condones their behaviour.

That said I don't the full circumstances, just commenting on the perceived injustice.

There's a world of difference between acknowledging somone who is a known hooligan, and actively going to home and away football games with known hooligans.

There's plenty of opportunities in life to 'acknowledge' people you have a tenuous connection with. Travelling around the country with them is clearly more involvement with than acknowledgment of.

Plus - at the age of 33, thsi guy is older than your average BSC wannabe, so it's not like he went to school with them etc.

I can see no sensible reaosn why someone who cares about their football club would want to associate with known hooligans who are a blight on that club. Notuions of the 'perceived injustice' are just ballax - and I'm a liberal..... :)

[OneRedArmy]

No but i think it's been well established that the banned fan has been banned for that very reason.I disgree.

It will only become clear why he's been banned when the full case comes to court.

[EalingGreen]

And on that point, I'm sure hooliganism is far down that particular list. It isn't a major problem here yet. Expense of tickets, poor facilities, the lure of televised football and a lack of advertising would, I'm sure, be more of a reason for people staying away from the LoI. Not to mention the general disintegration of community spirit in Ireland and the decline of the blue collar workforce, the traditional body of support for football. Oh, and percieved 'rubbish' standard of play, and a lack of roots in the locality of the ground.

No doubt those are all factors, but half of them (televised football, decline of community spirit/blue collar fanbase etc) are beyond the reach of EL football clubs to counter or reverse.

And of those that remain (expense of tickets, poor facilities, advertising etc), it takes money to resolve these and with admission receipts still the primary source of revenue for most clubs, then anything which hurts attendances HAS to be addressed, including the poor image derived from hooliganism (whether perceived or real).

More to the point, if you were to ask your average punter who might be persuaded to give EL a try, which he would prefer the clubs tackle first e.g. poor toilets or the threat of violence, I suspect I know which would be his answer. And it's not just him or even his wife etc; will nobody think of the children?*

On top of which, you are never going to attract the corporate sponsorship and advertising needed e.g. to improve facilities or subsidise admission prices so long as the game projects such a poor image. And hooliganism, even the threat of it, must be the game's worst image problem for many.


* - I've always wanted a genuine pretext to ask that question! ;)

[pól-dcfc]

And of those that remain (expense of tickets, poor facilities, advertising etc), it takes money to resolve these and with admission receipts still the primary source of revenue for most clubs, then anything which hurts attendances HAS to be addressed, including the poor image derived from hooliganism (whether perceived or real).

Oh, I forgot that not everyone was getting 'double grants' ;)

I agree with you BTW. And also agree that hooliganism is a problem that needs to be eradicated. I just think that it's being blown out of all proportion.

[Block G Raptor]

Plus - at the age of 33, thsi guy is older than your average BSC wannabe, so it's not like he went to school with them etc.

Incorrect most of the BSC are early to mid thirties

[noby]

Incorrect most of the BSC are early to mid thirties


..IQ?

[Block G Raptor]

..IQ?

<30..

[Da Real Rover]

Good post but i even think that gives them more credit that they deserve.

Lets face it, a lot of these guy have issues, dysfunctional background, they come from a social crisis area, they have behavioural problems and this is just a means interacting with their counterparts as a very basic and primitive level, the lowest common denominator or else they were just the guys that were always singled out as 'no hopers', guys that would never be able to get it together enough to do anything with themselves and they are just fufilling this prophesy.

Is not actually a football related issue in the wider scheme of things, its a social problem. They are skangers but they are skangers that cant function on their own, either because they are intimidated when not in a group, ala cowards or the behavioural issues they have, the limited social skills forcing them to exist like this. I'd say alot of them should be in some sort of care.

:D
Theres enough stereotypes there to fill a season of desperate housewives.

This decision is wrong.
If his only crime is to be assosciated with the filth that is the BSC then this is bull. Pure tripe, and Bohemians will get raped in court. No man with half a legal brain will ever let this fly.

More importantly this man has followed his club for 30 years and now he has a lifetime ban? And the vast majority of posters are of the its good enough for ya sentiment?. Whats wrong with you people? I know drug dealers, grew up with them etc, doesnt make me a pusher though. Theres such a thing as due process, and evidence etc. This decision has none of that. Guilty by assosciation? Are you having a laugh? This is disgusting, it is neithor morally correct or just.

One day they came and they took the Communists
And I said nothing because I was not a Communist
Then one day they took the people of the Jewish faith
And I said nothing because I had no faith left
One day they came and they took the unionists
And I said nothing because I was not a unionist
Then one day they came and they took me
And I could say nothing because I was as guilty as them
For not speaking out and saying that all men have a right to freedom
On any land

[OneRedArmy]

:D
Theres enough stereotypes there to fill a season of desperate housewives.

This decision is wrong.
If his only crime is to be assosciated with the filth that is the BSC then this is bull. Pure tripe, and Bohemians will get raped in court. No man with half a legal brain will ever let this fly.

More importantly this man has followed his club for 30 years and now he has a lifetime ban? And the vast majority of posters are of the its good enough for ya sentiment?. Whats wrong with you people? I know drug dealers, grew up with them etc, doesnt make me a pusher though. Theres such a thing as due process, and evidence etc. This decision has none of that. Guilty by assosciation? Are you having a laugh? This is disgusting, it is neithor morally correct or just.

One day they came and they took the Communists
And I said nothing because I was not a Communist
Then one day they took the people of the Jewish faith
And I said nothing because I had no faith left
One day they came and they took the unionists
And I said nothing because I was not a unionist
Then one day they came and they took me
And I could say nothing because I was as guilty as them
For not speaking out and saying that all men have a right to freedom
On any land"Won't somebody think of the children"........

Sense of perspective required.

As stated above ths isn't a criminal issue and is nothing to do with "freedom", so you can leave your high horse in the stable for the minute.

[Da Real Rover]

"Won't somebody think of the children"........

Sense of perspective required.

As stated above ths isn't a criminal issue and is nothing to do with "freedom", so you can leave your high horse in the stable for the minute.

I know its not about freedom, but the quote is relevant never the less.

[dcfcsteve]

:D
Theres enough stereotypes there to fill a season of desperate housewives.

This decision is wrong.
If his only crime is to be assosciated with the filth that is the BSC then this is bull. Pure tripe, and Bohemians will get raped in court. No man with half a legal brain will ever let this fly.

More importantly this man has followed his club for 30 years and now he has a lifetime ban? And the vast majority of posters are of the its good enough for ya sentiment?. Whats wrong with you people? I know drug dealers, grew up with them etc, doesnt make me a pusher though. Theres such a thing as due process, and evidence etc. This decision has none of that. Guilty by assosciation? Are you having a laugh? This is disgusting, it is neithor morally correct or just.

One day they came and they took the Communists
And I said nothing because I was not a Communist
Then one day they took the people of the Jewish faith
And I said nothing because I had no faith left
One day they came and they took the unionists
And I said nothing because I was not a unionist
Then one day they came and they took me
And I could say nothing because I was as guilty as them
For not speaking out and saying that all men have a right to freedom
On any land

Sweet Jesus.... :o

Talk about losing the run of yourself.

Bohs are able to deny entry to whoever they want to their own establishment. So long as they aren't discriminating on grounds that they are clearly prohibited from doing so (e.g. gender, race, disability, sexuality etc) then they ahev strong groudns for doing so.

As for knowing drug dealers - there is a world of difference between knowing them, and being there by their side of an evening when they go out doing their business. The latter would probably make you an accessory. This guy was goign to football games with football hooligans. That isn't the same as saying 'how're ya' to them in the street or sharing a pint with them after work one evening.

[MyTown]

Given that he lives within a stone's throw :o of Dalyer, and his employment is given as "hospital administrator" would it be stretchin' it to think he's employed by the Mater Hospital?

If so, he's a bit late calling on a former Hospital Administrator of the Mater to appeal on his behalf as he resigned as Taoiseach last week.

Well done to Bohs for giving him the red card. And I'm fairly sure James Connolly and any other apostle of socialism who has been invoked in defence of this individual's rights are turning in their graves at the way their ideals have been twisted in the name of straight forward thuggery.

[Macy]

Well done to Bohs for giving him the red card. And I'm fairly sure James Connolly and any other apostle of socialism who has been invoked in defence of this individual's rights are turning in their graves at the way their ideals have been twisted in the name of straight forward thuggery.
If there was evidence of straight forward thuggery I doubt there'd even be a thread, unless you have some light to throw on the subject?

[osarusan]

When I was a kid, my friend stole a Kinder egg from a shop. Not only that, but when I was in university, another friend slept with a girl although he already had a girlfriend.

I`m still associating with both.

Time to chop my own balls off it seems.

[jebus]

Some of you people genuinely sicken me. Guilty by association should never be used in any walk of life, and if you disagree with that then I think you're a moron at best.

And to whoever it was that was saying* that hooliganism keeps families away from supporting LoI clubs, well I can only assume you don't go to LoI games yourself given how ridiculous that remark is

* Sorry I forgot your name, there's just so much nonsense from so many people you've all kinda blurred into one right wing moron (oddly enough you all probably have similiar views on guilty by association as many stereotypical hooligans do)

[Greenforever]

Some of you people genuinely sicken me. Guilty by association should never be used in any walk of life, and if you disagree with that then I think you're a moron at best.

And to whoever it was that was saying* that hooliganism keeps families away from supporting LoI clubs, well I can only assume you don't go to LoI games yourself given how ridiculous that remark is

* Sorry I forgot your name, there's just so much nonsense from so many people you've all kinda blurred into one right wing moron (oddly enough you all probably have similiar views on guilty by association as many stereotypical hooligans do)


Please accept my apologies I never knew that all EL grounds are filled every week with families like GAA grounds. Im obviously going to the wrong games... and on that basis why are so many clubs struggling to survive if they're playing to full houses every week:rolleyes:

[osarusan]

Please accept my apologies I never knew that all EL grounds are filled every week with families like GAA grounds. Im obviously going to the wrong games... and on that basis why are so many clubs struggling to survive if they're playing to full houses every week:rolleyes:

He never said anything remotely similar to that.

He's arguing your point that hooliganism is a reason for low crowds. There are many reasons for low crowds, mainly the relative crapness of the football, the relative crapness of the surroundings, and the attitude of Irish people to eL, but I'd doubt if you could find 5 people who said the reason they didn't go to eL games was the fear of hooliganism.

[jebus]

Please accept my apologies I never knew that all EL grounds are filled every week with families like GAA grounds. Im obviously going to the wrong games... and on that basis why are so many clubs struggling to survive if they're playing to full houses every week:rolleyes:

What Joey said. Families don't come because of hooligans (quite a few do at Limerick mind), they don't come because the parents support Man Utd, Celtic, etc. and couldn't give a toss about LoI. Most non-LoI supporters barely think we have any fans, let alone hooligans

[MyTown]

When I was a kid, my friend stole a Kinder egg from a shop. Not only that, but when I was in university, another friend slept with a girl although he already had a girlfriend.

I`m still associating with both.

Time to chop my own balls off it seems.

Like Mr. Kelehan's mates, your action is a bit extreme Osar....too many Samaurai movies p'haps? Lectures in tolerance and civil liberties are really spot on as long as you've been an innocent bystander at one of these matches whose had to "endure" the fall out from Mr. Kelehan's associates.

[MyTown]

Some of you people genuinely sicken me. Guilty by association should never be used in any walk of life, and if you disagree with that then I think you're a moron at best.

Will you get off the soap box Jebus? This guy is STILL getting his day in court, is he not, to have the substantive issue tested by a judge? I'm happy to let the Judge decide. Luckily for most it's the way a democracy works, where a person who perceives society has done him / her wrong gets to test it.

And not everyone will be happy with the outcome, but at least nobody gets hurt, unlike, if you happen to bump into the Associates of innocents:rolleyes: and they're in bad form.

[jebus]

Like Mr. Kelehan's mates, your action is a bit extreme Osar....too many Samaurai movies p'haps? Lectures in tolerance and civil liberties are really spot on as long as you've been an innocent bystander at one of these matches whose had to "endure" the fall out from Mr. Kelehan's associates.

Yes because he lives in Japan he can't possible know what it's like to be around violence. Much like someone living in Galway apparantly can't get that he's not talking about being around the BSC at all


Will you get off the soap box Jebus?

Nope, not until everyone who disagrees with me on anything admits they're an idiot.

I don't care if the judge overturns this, Bohs as a club should never have imposed the ban in the first place, that's what I'm arguing against

[SunderlandBohs]

Well, all I can say to the bloke is. If you lay with dogs-you get fleas!

[Schumi]

Lectures in tolerance and civil liberties are really spot on as long as you've been an innocent bystander at one of these matches whose had to "endure" the fall out from Mr. Kelehan's associates.You were at a game where there was violence? Be careful or you'll be the next to be banned.

[OneRedArmy]

Some of you people genuinely sicken me. Guilty by association should never be used in any walk of life, and if you disagree with that then I think you're a moron at best.

And to whoever it was that was saying* that hooliganism keeps families away from supporting LoI clubs, well I can only assume you don't go to LoI games yourself given how ridiculous that remark is

* Sorry I forgot your name, there's just so much nonsense from so many people you've all kinda blurred into one right wing moron (oddly enough you all probably have similiar views on guilty by association as many stereotypical hooligans do)Unfortunately you haven't blurred into one idealistic moron, you're right out on your own on that front.

I find your general and frequent insults to people who disagree with your "defender of civil liberties" approach tiresome and for someone who clearly has a modicum of intelligence, beneath you. You are in many ways typical of a lot of libertarians, absolutely intolerant of those who don't share your views.

Why don't you try getting your point across without grandstanding, hyperbole, insulting people or other similar keyboard warrior-esque behaviour?

[passerrby]

When I was a kid, my friend stole a Kinder egg from a shop. Not only that, but when I was in university, another friend slept with a girl although he already had a girlfriend.

I`m still associating with both.

Time to chop my own balls off it seems.

Ah but would you still be a langer

[jebus]

Why don't you try getting your point across without grandstanding, hyperbole, insulting people or other similar keyboard warrior-esque behaviour?

Both sides of the coin need their loudmouths to get an opinion across, we then leave it to the more reasoned to actually debate the matter, I find it works better that way. Plus I'm not really trying to change anyone's opinions as I generally don't think it's possible for someone to do so, or at least that's the impression I've formed from internet forums and newspaper letter's sections. I find discussions these days goes something like, I give an opinion, someone gives their opposite opinion, I repeat my opinion, they do theirs, and we go around like that for approx. 3-5 days before everyone gets bored and we both end up with an infraction. Nope, as with everyone posting on forums or on blogs, I think my opinion is all important and needs to be published online for all to read, it's one of the major positive/negatives of the age of the internet.


Ah but would you still be a langer

I give you section a of the evidence of what being quite a reasoned poster like Osarusan gets you in online debates with people like this

[A face]

I cant believe that people dont think families/general public would decide not to go to a game if they thought there were hooligans/unsavoury types at games already?

There is no way any parent would bring kids to a game if they thought there was even the slightest chance something could happen.

The Linfield fan a few weeks ago at the Pats game. 3000+ at the game and nothing happened except for that incident, which was completely blown out of proportion. Are you seriously suggesting that people wouldn't think twice about attending a game, even based solely on that incident?

There is no way on earth that most parents would want their kids to witness that (3000+ people were completely unaware of it inside the ground i might add), hear about that or be within one mile of that. People simply do not want to anything to do with it. And to dismiss that fact is brain dead.

If people know there is a hooligan presence (they dont even have to be doing anything, its simply potential for something to happen) in any ground on a regular basis they will not attend games. Its a bit lame to say 'they wouldn't come anyway', 'they are only interested in Sky Sports', 'they are just not interested in going to LOI games' .... that fact is that most clubs would cut of their right arms to double the average attendance for a few years.

If this hoolie thing is preventing the attendance from growing (even without incident) then its an issue and clubs should treat it as a crisis. If something is cutting off a life line to revenue then you have to deal with it like any other organisation would deal with it. To think that clubs couldn't, wouldn't or shouldn't do anything about it is off the wall stuff. Trying to suggest that clubs are infringing on peoples rights when the same people are strangling a club of revenue is a crazy illogical argument. You can continue to argue it but there is no way on earth it will change anything. Infact if it did then the said club is doomed anyway and you might as well just leave hoolies have a free for all.





There is a bigger picture to all of this. The league needs to move on, attract more crowds and build decent regular loyal fanbase. Hoolies dont and will never out number the potential for that to happen. While it is there hoolies will never be cast a second thought, it just not financially viable to entertain them.

Just because clubs, in recent years haven't been getting crowds, that no good enough a reason to not strive to get them. Hoolies will not help that happen so they and their 'human rights' should not even be considered.

[ramsfan]

the scum deserve all they get i have a small daughter but wouldnt bring her near a game when bohs or rovers are in town, so yes it does efeect kids and families the scumbags need to be routed out in each club and get banned from all games but for this to work we need a more integrated intelligence network for stewards and guards