Portadown Out

[pól-dcfc]

The IFA Executive Committee met on Wednesday 30 April 2008 to consider the application of Portadown Football Club for the IFA Premiership which will commence from August 2008.

The application was not submitted by the stipulated deadline of 4.00 pm on Monday, 31 March 2008 which was endorsed by the Executive Committee at its meeting on 10 January 2008. The application has, therefore, not been included in the process.

[Risteard]

IFA Premiership?

[Morrissey]

I really feel for all Portadown fans right now. We were in far worse predicament, so I know what it must feel like.

The league will be weaker because of it, and the punishment does not fit the crime. BUT Portadown agreed to the conditions when they signed up for the league, and complaining about the deadline after they've missed it does not wash.

Sad day for IL football, but the correct decision and hopefully through this clubs will start to get themselves in order.

[AnnaghRed]

Its a sorry state of affairs alright, and totally unbelievable that someone couldn't have had the application in on time.

The only appeal i can see succeeding is one to good nature or commonsense but it doesn't look like thats gonna happen, suppose we'll miss the deadline for the PIL next :rolleyes:

Apart from everything else it has dominated affairs to the detriment of this saturdays IC final....think Bobby Jameson presented the cup last season, I trust he'll get a warm reception if he's within a hounds gowl of Windsor this saturday :D

[hedderman]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/7376359.stm

You would think that common sense would prevail and there application would be considered given that it was only submitted 15 mins late.

[pól-dcfc]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/irish/7376359.stm

You would think that common sense would prevail and there application would be considered given that it was only submitted 15 mins late.


I don't think it was though. Apparently it was 30 mins late. And the excuses Bobby Jameson has been coming up with have changed every day.

I don't think they should be considered. They made a balls up and it's their own fault. If they are considered you can garauntee that the team finishing 13th in the process will appeal the decision.

[pete]

Rules are rules. Why did Portadown cut it so close anyway? If you make exceptions for 30 minutes do you want exceptions for 1 day late next season.

I don't know if worked like FAI system but maybe Portadown should just have had 20% of their assessment points deducted as "late fee".

[CvilleRovers]

very interesting this, will it mean portadown cant get promoted for 3 seasons then as under this new league there isnt any promotion/ relegation for the first few years isnt it?

[AnnaghRed]

very interesting this, will it mean portadown cant get promoted for 3 seasons then as under this new league there isnt any promotion/ relegation for the first few years isnt it?


Have heard that there will be promotion, have heard that there wont.

Have heard that ASDA have put in a mega bid for the land at Shamrock prior to the late application :D

Will hear all sorts before this finally gets sorted.

[pól-dcfc]

Rules are rules. Why did Portadown cut it so close anyway? If you make exceptions for 30 minutes do you want exceptions for 1 day late next season.

I don't know if worked like FAI system but maybe Portadown should just have had 20% of their assessment points deducted as "late fee".

It didn't. The covering letter on the application stated clearly that no late applications would be considered. Several reminder letters were also sent to the clubs, stating the same.

[A face]

Any update on this?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Rules are rules. Why did Portadown cut it so close anyway? If you make exceptions for 30 minutes do you want exceptions for 1 day late next season.

I don't know if worked like FAI system but maybe Portadown should just have had 20% of their assessment points deducted as "late fee".

Sorry Pete but that's exactly the type of pettiness Howard Wells was indulging on the telly on Thursday. He actually got drawn into a debate about whether they were 15 or 30 minutes late with their application. A phonecall to the local cop shop could've confirmed or destroyed the excuse that a traffic accident had caused the delay in delivery. In the event the PSNI confirmed it then even the strictest interpretation of Force Majeure would've allowed the IFA to disregard the lateness of Portadowns application.

I have to wonder if this had happened to Linfield or the Glens would anyone even know about it.

I'm virtually certain if it happened down here you'd only get the same level of pettiness if it was a Monaghan or a Kildare and it'd be "ah go on sure you're grand" if it was a Premier club.

[dcfcsteve]

But why were Portadown cutting it so close to the wire in getting their application in ? :confused:

They're not First Year Uni students handing in a piece of coursework late cuz they had a big one the night before. Thye've known about this deadline for months now.

Amateur...

[GavinZac]

I'm virtually certain if it happened down here you'd only get the same level of pettiness if it was a Monaghan or a Kildare and it'd be "ah go on sure you're grand" if it was a Premier club.Sure, of course it would :rolleyes: Its not like we've had Championships and relegations decided by paperwork, have we?

[Lionel Ritchie]

But why were Portadown cutting it so close to the wire in getting their application in ? :confused:

They're not First Year Uni students handing in a piece of coursework late cuz they had a big one the night before. Thye've known about this deadline for months now.

Amateur...

I'm sure I have no idea why it was that Portadown were cutting it fine. I'll give them the benefit of a doubt though, based on the fact that their application was mere minutes late, that they were bustin their collective balls to get the thing in.

This all just strikes me as an OTT reaction by the IFA.

[dcfcsteve]

I'm sure I have no idea why it was that Portadown were cutting it fine. I'll give them the benefit of a doubt though, based on the fact that their application was mere minutes late, that they were bustin their collective balls to get the thing in.

But again - why were they busting their balls to do so last minute ?!? :confused:

No other club appeared to struggle with the deadline - including those physically further from Belfast than Portadown, who therefore didn't have the luxury of buying an hour extra by having a quick drive in, were they all in such a last-minute panic to do it.


This all just strikes me as an OTT reaction by the IFA.

What's the point in having a clear rule well-advertised in-advance if you then ignore it when it's broken ? :confused: That would be minnowism of the highest order. How will clubs ever learn if they see major deadlines being ignored ? And how would it be fair on the other clubs, who busted their balls and cut corners to get their's in on time, to see a competitor benefit from the rules being ignored to their detriment ?

It's not an OTT reaction. It's an obvious one.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Once again, I don't know the details at all of why they were only putting their application in on the last day. I could have a guess that it might've had something to do with tying up loose ends of their application ... financial, infrastructural, backing, guarantoirs etc... so they could make the best possible case for themselves in their application. Once again that's a guess.

In attempting to do that it's understandable that they should use the maximum amount of time available rather than getting a lesser application in well in advance. After all it's a deadline -it's there to be met not blown out of the water. They did fail to meet that deadline but -Given that the application was in Windsor Ave 15 minutes after the deadline expired I think demonstrates good faith on Portadown FCs part ...whatever about a degree of numptyism I don't contend it also demonstrates.

I do think though that it also demonstrates a degree of retentiveness on the IFAs part when they'd an opportunity to show magnanamity and common sense. It'd have cost them nothing to just accept the application and quote force majeure if any other club spat the dummy out over it ...assuming a police report confirming the RTA which delayed delivery is forthcoming. What are they afraid of? a spate of clubs staging RTAs to get deadlines extended? How often are the planning on reconstituting the league anyway?

[Mr_Parker]

Sorry Pete but that's exactly the type of pettiness Howard Wells was indulging on the telly on Thursday. He actually got drawn into a debate about whether they were 15 or 30 minutes late with their application. A phonecall to the local cop shop could've confirmed or destroyed the excuse that a traffic accident had caused the delay in delivery. In the event the PSNI confirmed it then even the strictest interpretation of Force Majeure would've allowed the IFA to disregard the lateness of Portadowns application.

The biggest problem with the "traffic accident" notion is that in the days leading up to that "excuse" their Vice Chairman came up with all sorts of reasons and arguements none of which mentioned traffic problems. It doesn't matter whether they were 1 min, 15 mins or 30 mins late. They were late. You cannot seriously suggest that one of the other clubs who followed all the correct procedures with their application, including getting it in on time should be asked to give way to allow Portadown in?




I have to wonder if this had happened to Linfield or the Glens would anyone even know about it.

With the changes in how the IFA is running its affairs in recent years I believe we would have known about it just as the Glentoran player registration problems were actioned by the IFA.




I'm virtually certain if it happened down here you'd only get the same level of pettiness if it was a Monaghan or a Kildare and it'd be "ah go on sure you're grand" if it was a Premier club.

It's not pettiness, it is the correct aplication of the process.

[Mr_Parker]

In attempting to do that it's understandable that they should use the maximum amount of time available rather than getting a lesser application in well in advance. After all it's a deadline -it's there to be met not blown out of the water. They did fail to meet that deadline but -Given that the application was in Windsor Ave 15 minutes after the deadline expired I think demonstrates good faith on Portadown FCs part ...whatever about a degree of numptyism I don't contend it also demonstrates.


It was 30 minutes after the deadline. And what about those clubs who have acted in good faith and summitted everything correctly?




I do think though that it also demonstrates a degree of retentiveness on the IFAs part when they'd an opportunity to show magnanamity and common sense. It'd have cost them nothing to just accept the application and quote force majeure if any other club spat the dummy out over it ...assuming a police report confirming the RTA which delayed delivery is forthcoming. What are they afraid of? a spate of clubs staging RTAs to get deadlines extended? How often are the planning on reconstituting the league anyway?

If there had have been an accident on the Lisburn road that was causing 30min plus delays at that time on a Monday it would have made the traffic news as it would have caused major disruption. There were people from other clubs who were coming and going from Windsor Avenue at that time on the Monday who surprisingly encountered no such problems.

You must also put any such RTA into context of other "reasons" given by their club official as they appear contradictory.

[Lionel Ritchie]

The biggest problem with the "traffic accident" notion is that in the days leading up to that "excuse" their Vice Chairman came up with all sorts of reasons and arguements... So? He quite probably knew they were going to be tight for time and were heading for a close shave with the deadline. Are you seriously implying that with the VC having highlighted their problems with getting an application in on time he'd then try and nick a mere 15 minutes? ...even half an hour if you believe Howard Wells? Why not a day or two? Why not a week?


...none of which mentioned traffic problems. It doesn't matter whether they were 1 min, 15 mins or 30 mins late. They were late. I'm not being pedantic here but he's not Mystic Meg. In the days leading up to the that "excuse" he can't have known a traffic accident would bring them to a halt. But yes they were late. Absolutlely IMMATERIALLY late.
There isn't a soul out there that would've been disenfranchised a jot by the IFA just taking the thing. I doubt they even opened the envelopes til Friday morning anyway.


You cannot seriously suggest that one of the other clubs who followed all the correct procedures with their application, including getting it in on time should be asked to give way to allow Portadown in? Ah now we get to the meat of the issue. A club who's application may be nearly as good as Portadowns or nowhere near it get in ahead on a piddly technicality. Great news for football.

[EalingGreen]

There isn't a soul out there that would've been disenfranchised a jot by the IFA just taking the thing. I doubt they even opened the envelopes til Friday morning anyway.


I've seen it reported that the Applications were all time-stamped as they were received (In fact, one report claimed that the PFC employee arrived 15 minutes late, and spent another 15 minutes "in discussion", before the IFA Official felt compelled to stamp it).

Anyhow, assuming it is true about the time-stamps - and it would make sense - all it would have taken would have been for someone sympathetic to the "13th" club, or a passing journalist (or someone who's mates with a journalist) or merely s.o. concerned to see that procedures are followed, to "blow the whistle" i.e. demand to see the time-stamped Applications, plus each club's time-stamped Receipt.

In which case, the IFA wouldn't have a leg to stand on legally, so would risk being sued by the excluded 13th club, as well as seeing their reputation for impartiality in shreds.

I feel v.sorry for Ports fans, but someone in their club screwed up - the IFA simply could not turn a blind eye imo.

[micls]

So? He quite probably knew they were going to be tight for time and were heading for a close shave with the deadline..

Well this would make sense if their idiot spokesman didnt say int he same breath that they didnt know the deadline was 4, they thought it was 5. So a traffic accident made them late for a deadline they didnt know about, despite being written on all the forms

[Mr_Parker]

So? He quite probably knew they were going to be tight for time and were heading for a close shave with the deadline. Are you seriously implying that with the VC having highlighted their problems with getting an application in on time he'd then try and nick a mere 15 minutes? ...even half an hour if you believe Howard Wells? Why not a day or two? Why not a week?

How many interviews and days passed with various reasons for their lateness before the "accident" was mentioned? Oh and I believe Howard Well's as do other witness's to the events in the Windsor Avenue reception that afternoon.


I'm not being pedantic here but he's not Mystic Meg. In the days leading up to the that "excuse" he can't have known a traffic accident would bring them to a halt. But yes they were late. Absolutlely IMMATERIALLY late.
There isn't a soul out there that would've been disenfranchised a jot by the IFA just taking the thing. I doubt they even opened the envelopes til Friday morning anyway.

All the above is immaterial. The process was clear and properly communicated and indeed it would appear that one of the same people who was claiming they did not know about the 4pm deadline actually sat on the committee that agreed to it and then ratified it at a later meeting.

Oh, and here is an interesting story for comparisson

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gk2fyzK02izIWjVpwp0OOrL3-B3Q


Ah now we get to the meat of the issue. A club who's application may be nearly as good as Portadowns or nowhere near it get in ahead on a piddly technicality. Great news for football.


Not "may be" at all. It will be better as it will be assessed while Portadowns won't.
......

[Lionel Ritchie]

.How many interviews and days passed with various reasons for their lateness before the "accident" was mentioned?


Approximately 30 days and I have no idea how many interviews (if indeed any) ...as the first I heard about it was a BBC report about it last Thursday evening.

Look the excuse either stands up or it doesn't. If the cops can confirm an auto accident caused delays in and around the IFA headquarters on deadline day (31.3.08 ???) then Portadown should, in my opinion, get the benefit of the doubt. If they can't get the excuse corroborated then fair enough ...fcuk em. But to tell a club who are on the doorstep 15-30 minutes (I get the impression they were there 15 minutes after 4pm and were only allowed or denied a timestamp 15 minutes later again) after closing time that their application is null and void strikes me as petty to the point of mischievous.

[Mr_Parker]

Approximately 30 days and I have no idea how many interviews (if indeed any) ...as the first I heard about it was a BBC report about it last Thursday evening.

Look the excuse either stands up or it doesn't. If the cops can confirm an auto accident caused delays in and around the IFA headquarters on deadline day (31.3.08 ???) then Portadown should, in my opinion, get the benefit of the doubt. If they can't get the excuse corroborated then fair enough ...fcuk em. But to tell a club who are on the doorstep 15-30 minutes (I get the impression they were there 15 minutes after 4pm and were only allowed or denied a timestamp 15 minutes later again) after closing time that their application is null and void strikes me as petty to the point of mischievous.

The excuse doesn't stand because the others contradict it. Plenty of press coverage with the other previous excuses which you have missed. Unfortunately for Portadown can only appeal the process not other matters. If they can prove the process is flawed then they will win their appeal but the whole league will then come into question.

[A face]

Any closer to a resolution? Either way even?

[Not Brazil]

Any closer to a resolution? Either way even?

Portadown FC's appeal will be heard on Monday, 12th May.

[Blanchflower]

Portadown have lost their appeal (IFA statement on their web site today) and are now out of senior football for the first time since 1924.

[Krstic]

Very sad day for the Irish League, considering Portadown are the only team outside of Belfast since 1974 to win the IL title, it just re-inforces the image of a Belfast & District league to those on the outside.

[Morrissey]

One step back, but two forwards.


















Namely, McCutcheon and Smith.

[holidaysong]

Bangor of the First Division get in!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/irish/7399454.stm

[pineapple stu]

That's amazing. The Irish League shooting itself in the foot with its own stupid criteria-based league.

Bangor seem to be easy fall guys if Portadown appeal though. Have they decided if there's promotion/relegation yet?

Edit - final ranking here (http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/3959/irish-fa-premiership-final-ranking-of-clubs/). Ballymena in second?!

[Lux Interior]

That's amazing. The Irish League shooting itself in the foot with its own stupid criteria-based league.

Bangor seem to be easy fall guys if Portadown appeal though. Have they decided if there's promotion/relegation yet?

Edit - final ranking here (http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/3959/irish-fa-premiership-final-ranking-of-clubs/). Ballymena in second?!


Bangor are not 'direct' replacements for Portadown as they accumulated enough ranking points to take 11th spot. Even if Portadown's appeal was upheld, Bangor would still be in.

Ballymena outscored us heavily in ground criteria. Basically, a smart council owned and maintained venue versus a rusting hulk with no investment whatever due to pending ground move.

[Blanchflower]

Absolutely farcical that Bangor are in and Portadown and DC out.

[SolitudeRed]

Absolutely farcical that Bangor are in and Portadown and DC out.

Hopefully clubs will learn from what has happened to the Ports and be more professional in how they handle the administrative side of things.

As for DC well their ground is terrible and they've only had two seasons in the top flight so in a way I'm not surprised!

[Morrissey]

Absolutely farcical that Bangor are in and Portadown and DC out.


Why? Pray tell.

Portadown were the makers of their own downfall, while DC's bluster has done little to endear them to any IL club, so they'll not be missed.

Also, the small fact that they're challenging Coleraine's inclusion as part of their legal appeal.

Don't let the door hit your arse on the way out DC.

[Blanchflower]

As for DC well their ground is terrible and they've only had two seasons in the top flight so in a way I'm not surprised!
They were good enough to get a domestic licence and they finished in the top 12, so they should be in.

[Blanchflower]

Why? Pray tell.

Because:

1. Portadown and DC are top 12 teams who both meet the requirements of the domestic licence.
2. Bangor finished 3rd in the B Division team - effectively 19th in NI - and therefore do not deserve to be promoted.


Portadown were the makers of their own downfall, while DC's bluster has done little to endear them to any IL club, so they'll not be missed.

Whether a club "endears itself" to other clubs is totally irrelevant to the question of whether they merit a place in senior football.

Equally, handing a form in late is not a reasonable criterion for expelling a club from senior football.


Also, the small fact that they're challenging Coleraine's inclusion as part of their legal appeal.

Once the IFA brought in a ludicrous system based more on off-the-field criteria than how good a team is, these types of challenges are inevitable.

[Morrissey]

They were good enough to get a domestic licence and they finished in the top 12, so they should be in.

But they signed off on their score, on the very process they agreed to.

[Morrissey]

Because:

1. Portadown and DC are top 12 teams who both meet the requirements of the domestic licence.
2. Bangor finished 3rd in the B Division team - effectively 19th in NI - and therefore do not deserve to be promoted.


Whether a club "endears itself" to other clubs is totally irrelevant to the question of whether they merit a place in senior football.

Let's look at this way. Would DC have finished as high had they spent Rory's wages on ground developments? The ironic answer is that they may have made the grade.


Equally, handing a form in late is not a reasonable criterion for expelling a club from senior football.

I agree. But "rules is rules", Mr Jameson.


Once the IFA brought in a ludicrous system based more on off-the-field criteria than how good a team is, these types of challenges are inevitable.

Ring a few bells, no.

And I suggest you acquaint yourself with the scoring matrix. For the record, the Coleraine saga is a closed book. DC are clutching at straws by blowing the dust off it.

[Spoons]

It is sad that Portadown are not in the new League but maybe they will get a professional administrative side to the club and move forward from this embarassment.....I'm sure the men instigating the All-Ireland League will be the first men to be spoken to today by The Ports............;)

Aside from that, how the hell can Newry have scored so low??...they just scraped in ffs .....:ball:

[Blanchflower]

But they signed off on their score, on the very process they agreed to.
When did they "sign off" on their score? The scores were only announced last night.

Whether they agreed to the process or not - the process was still ridiculous.

[Blanchflower]

Let's look at this way. Would DC have finished as high had they spent Rory's wages on ground developments? The ironic answer is that they may have made the grade.

They were deemed good enough to have a domestic licence - that's all that should matter.


I agree. But "rules is rules", Mr Jameson.

It's the rules that I'm saying were ridiculous.

[Morrissey]

They were deemed good enough to have a domestic licence - that's all that should matter.


It's the rules that I'm saying were ridiculous.


Very little difference betweem the FAI and IFA Premiership.

And all clubs signed off on their scores at the start of the month. They didn't know the other clubs' scores at that point. but they agreed the distribution of points was accurate.

[Schumi]

Very little difference betweem the FAI and IFA Premiership.Exactly, ridiculous.

It seems to be part of the rules for this sort of thing that third place in the lower division means promotion.

[Blanchflower]

Very little difference betweem the FAI and IFA Premiership.

And the FAI process was ridiculous, too.

[Morrissey]

I never said it was ideal, but it's an improvement.

[Schumi]

I never said it was ideal, but it's an improvement.On what?

[Blanchflower]

I never said it was ideal, but it's an improvement.
How is it an improvement on requiring the top teams to have a licence and relegating the bottom 4 to create a 12-team league?

How is promoting Bangor - leapfrogging them ahead of 7 superior teams - an improvement on having the 12 best teams in the country in the league?

[Morrissey]

How is it an improvement on requiring the top teams to have a licence and relegating the bottom 4 to create a 12-team league?

How is promoting Bangor - leapfrogging them ahead of 7 superior teams - an improvement on having the 12 best teams in the country in the league?

Licence FORCES clubs to raise their game. Next season will see them become more stringent again, due to the facilities coming more into play. Clubs would stagnant, sit on their arse while playing out wages, if they could. This forces clubs to be pro-active is a UEFA requirement if nothing else.

The standard will increase. Maybe not dramatically, but simply, more competent players for less teams.

Again, they only leapfrogged one team, DC. The rest didn't get a domestic license - UEFA requirement remember - and Portadown failed to adhere to the stipulated rules. They beat DC, comprehensively in the end, due to superior facilities, I'd imagine.

Apart from Portadown's debatable non-invitation and Larne's ineptitude, that's the best 12 teams (bearing in mind that football these days, globally, is more than just on field performances as various Football League clubs have shown) I could pick. So barring Portadown's self inflicted f*ck up, it's given us what we've been craving for years. The elimination of pub teams.