Portadown Out

[pól-dcfc]

Licence FORCES clubs to raise their game.

That only backs up what Blanchflower is saying. Top 12 teams with a DL.


This process wasn't about the license.

[Morrissey]

This process wasn't about the license.

Correct. It was a blue-print set out by the FAI. The IFA followed suit. It's about raising the relative standard of clubs, mainly to attract public interest, not about internal competition IMO. It was to rid the deadwood. Clubs that contribute nothing and are where they are due to gerrymandered IFA entry criteria.

I could debate the merits of this system ad-infinitum - trust me, there are aspects I'm sceptical on - but I'll keep my powder dry until the end of the first season. Then it's time for objective re-evaluation.

[holidaysong]

Is there promotion and relegation next year as long as the team coming up gets a licence?

[Morrissey]

Yet to be released to press, but I believe that's correct.

If the winners of the PIL - First Division - fail in their domestic license application, then second place - providing they have one - will be promoted.

Failing both those, there will be no P&R.

[Blanchflower]

Licence FORCES clubs to raise their game.
Both Portadown and DC got licences!:rolleyes:


Next season will see them become more stringent again, due to the facilities coming more into play. Clubs would stagnant, sit on their arse while playing out wages, if they could. This forces clubs to be pro-active is a UEFA requirement if nothing else.

And?


The standard will increase. Maybe not dramatically, but simply, more competent players for less teams.

How will the standard increase with a 12-team league predicated on the licence, but excluding 2 of the top 12 teams, compared to a 12-team league predicated on the licence, but including all 12 top teams?:rolleyes:


Again, they only leapfrogged one team, DC. The rest didn't get a domestic license - UEFA requirement remember - and Portadown failed to adhere to the stipulated rules.
Portadown got a licence.


They beat DC, comprehensively in the end, due to superior facilities, I'd imagine.

Both DC's and Bangor's facilities met the grade for a licence. DC is the better team so should be in the league ahead of Bangor.


Apart from Portadown's debatable non-invitation and Larne's ineptitude, that's the best 12 teams (bearing in mind that football these days, globally, is more than just on field performances as various Football League clubs have shown) I could pick. So barring Portadown's self inflicted f*ck up, it's given us what we've been craving for years. The elimination of pub teams.

The best 12 teams are: Linfield, Glens, Cliftonville, Distillery, Portadown, Ballymena, Crusaders, Newry, Coleraine, Dungannon, DC and Glenavon - all of whom have licences and all of whom should therefore be in the league. We didn't get the best 12 teams.

[Blanchflower]

Correct. It was a blue-print set out by the FAI. The IFA followed suit. It's about raising the relative standard of clubs, mainly to attract public interest, not about internal competition IMO. It was to rid the deadwood.

Er, the licence does that!:eek:

Why is a licence sufficient to gain promotion as of next year and every subsequent year, but this year - for one year only - there were additional criteria (many of which involve double-counting because they are also included in the licence)?


Clubs that contribute nothing and are where they are due to gerrymandered IFA entry criteria.
So winning the First Division, or a play-off is "gerrymandered criteria"?:eek:

[Morrissey]

Both Portadown and DC got licences!:rolleyes:
Indeed they did. What you fail to realise, that as it stands, DC will not meet domestic license criteria next year. Criteria for spectator facilties was postponed. Had it not been, Cliftonville amongst others would not have made it. If they wanted to use your idealogy for a new league's basis, they should have waited until next until the funds were released, and then take the top 12. But due to a f*ck with the Ex. Comm reduction, clubs received domestic licenses without being assessed on their ground. The 'double counting' - loose term - in the IFAP apllication then aided this perfectly

And?

And?



How will the standard increase with a 12-team league predicated on the licence, but excluding 2 of the top 12 teams, compared to a 12-team league predicated on the licence, but including all 12 top teams?:rolleyes:

It's a simple demand versus supply economic. And you KNOW I'm talking using this season to next season as a comparison, rather than a league predicated on a ranking system, over and above the DL

Portadown got a licence.

Yes, well done to them on that. What they didn't do was follow the rules they agreed to. Whether or not, you or I, think it's a matter worthy of exclusion is irrelevant

Both DC's and Bangor's facilities met the grade for a licence. DC is the better team so should be in the league ahead of Bangor.


Again, you're forgetting facilities were effectively ignored for this year's DL. Where Bangor did DC over, was in the scoring matrix of the IFAP

The best 12 teams are: Linfield, Glens, Cliftonville, Distillery, Portadown, Ballymena, Crusaders, Newry, Coleraine, Dungannon, DC and Glenavon - all of whom have licences and all of whom should therefore be in the league. We didn't get the best 12 teams.
I'm not debating whether the league should be decided upon a ranking system. I'm merely using the rules laid out and agree to by all clubs as a means for justifying Portadown's and DC's non-invitation.

[Morrissey]

Er, the licence does that!:eek:

Why is a licence sufficient to gain promotion as of next year and every subsequent year, but this year - for one year only - there were additional criteria (many of which involve double-counting because they are also included in the licence)?

I am by no means an expert on the DL/IFAP applications, but please do some research. I haven't the time nor inclination to repeat myself or explain the most elementary aspects of each process to you. Mr Paker may indluge you though.

Framework.




So winning the First Division, or a play-off is "gerrymandered criteria"?:eek:
Falkrik, Stanley, Barnet.

Three sides who have been prevented from gaining access to an above league due to inadeqaute ground facilties.

See DC, Limavady, Loughgall, Armagh. All of whom have gained access to the IPL by the IFA's leniency and loosening criteria. We have had to endure Limavady Showgrounds for years, due to the IFA's lack of strength. Those criteria have been gerrymandered.

In future, all that will be required is DL and the finish in the top two. That should keep you happy.

[Blanchflower]

Indeed they did.
Therefore both clubs are good enough off-the-field to have a place in the premier league. AnNd on-the-field, both clubs are superior to Institute and Bangor.


Indeed they did.
What you fail to realise, that as it stands, DC will not meet domestic license criteria next year. [/quote]
Next year doesn't matter :eek:... this is about this year! If DC, or any other club, failed to get a licence next year then it would be reasonable to relegate them.


If they wanted to use your idealogy [sic] for a new league's basis, they should have waited until next until the funds were released, and then take the top 12.
I can see nothing wrong with doing that. But they still could have done it this year using the criteria for his year's licence.


But due to a f*ck with the Ex. Comm reduction, clubs received domestic licenses without being assessed on their ground. The 'double counting' - loose term - in the IFAP apllication then aided this perfectly
The double-counting included more than facilities.



And?

And what was the relevance of your comment about criteria becoming more stringent next season?


It's a simple demand versus supply economic. And you KNOW I'm talking using this season to next season as a comparison, rather than a league predicated on a ranking system, over and above the DL

Well then you're talking outside the terms of reference of this discussion because I'm in favour of the DL and talking about a league using the DL!


Yes, well done to them on that. What they didn't do was follow the rules they agreed to.
As I said, the rules were stupid and unnecessary - it should have been top 12 teams with a DL - Portadown were in the top 12 and have a DL.


Whether or not, you or I, think it's a matter worthy of exclusion is irrelevant
Our opinions on the process for establishing the new 12-team league are not irrelevant to a discussion about the process for establishing the new 12-team league!:eek::confused:

[Morrissey]

Well then you're talking outside the terms of reference of this discussion because I'm in favour of the DL and talking about a league using the DL!



Our opinions on the process for establishing the new 12-team league are not irrelevant to a discussion about the process for establishing the new 12-team league!:eek::confused:

My posts are purely based on the criteria laid out, and the ability of clubs to adhere to them.

I have no steadfast preference over a league using a ranking system or not. However, the deferring of the facilties crtieria has added another dimension, and IMO - since we're talking the present as you were quick to point out - the ranking system does have merits.

For the record. I'd like Portadown in, DC out, and a toss up with Bangor, Stute and Larne for the final spot.

[Blanchflower]

Again, you're forgetting facilities were effectively ignored for this year's DL. Where Bangor did DC over, was in the scoring matrix of the IFAP
It doesn't matter - both clubs were deemed good enough to get licences, but DC were better than Bangor on the pitch, therefore DC should get a place ahead of Bangor.


I'm not debating whether the league should be decided upon a ranking system.
Why not? That's what we're discussing!


I'm merely using the rules laid out and agree to by all clubs as a means for justifying Portadown's and DC's non-invitation.
But it's the "rules laid out" that are under discussion - they were ridiculous!

[Blanchflower]

I am by no means an expert on the DL/IFAP applications, but please do some research. I haven't the time nor inclination to repeat myself or explain the most elementary aspects of each process to you. Mr Paker may indluge you though.

Er, it was a rhetorical question.:(:eek:


Three sides who have been prevented from gaining access to an above league due to inadeqaute ground facilties.

See DC, Limavady, Loughgall, Armagh. All of whom have gained access to the IPL by the IFA's leniency and loosening criteria. We have had to endure Limavady Showgrounds for years, due to the IFA's lack of strength. Those criteria have been gerrymandered.

Gerrymandered by whom and for what purpose? It's up to all the IL clubs to determine the criteria, not individual clubs.


In future, all that will be required is DL and the finish in the top two. That should keep you happy.
Precisely my point! That is what should happen and demonstrates how illogical it is to operate such a sensible system in years 2,3, 4, 5, etc., but have a stupid double-counting ranking system plus ludicrous penalties for late applications in year 1 and year 1 only.

[Morrissey]

I'll be reaching for the bucket if we go around in any more circles.

Had the facilities been included in the DL this year, I'd agree with you.

As it is, I don't.

Succint enough?

[Morrissey]

Er, it was a rhetorical question.:(:eek:


Gerrymandered by whom and for what purpose? It's up to all the IL clubs to determine the criteria, not individual clubs.


Precisely my point! That is what should happen and demonstrates how illogical it is to operate such a sensible system in years 2,3, 4, 5, etc., but have a stupid double-counting ranking system plus ludicrous penalties for late applications in year 1 and year 1 only.

There'll still be deadlines for future DLs. :confused:

We all really know what the basis for the league was, whether you agree with it or not. One club just decided not to play ball, to their detriment.

[Blanchflower]

My posts are purely based on the criteria laid out, and the ability of clubs to adhere to them.
Then all your posts are irrelevant, because everyone knows the "criteria laid out" and the process in place. The discussion is about the process per se and how ridiculous it is!



I have no steadfast preference over a league using a ranking system or not. However, the deferring of the facilties crtieria has added another dimension, and IMO - since we're talking the present as you were quick to point out - the ranking system does have merits.
What merits?

[Morrissey]

What merits?

Perhaps the point I've bee trying to ram home to you.

A means of scoring clubs on their CURRENT facilties, since the DL failed to do so.

[Blanchflower]

I'll be reaching for the bucket if we go around in any more circles.

Had the facilities been included in the DL this year, I'd agree with you.

As it is, I don't.

Succint enough?
I think it's reasonable to give clubs time to upgrade their facilities. The league should facilitate clubs to improve, not put barriers in their way. The whole thing has been rushed.

That said, whatever the criteria for the DL this year - facilities or not - it should have been top 12 teams with a DL.

[Blanchflower]

Perhaps the point I've bee trying to ram home to you.

A means of scoring clubs on THEIR current facilties, since the DL failed to do so.
But facilities were only one part of the ranking system, so the much of the rest was double-counting.

And if facilities were not required for the DL then they should not have been required for the new league. If they were required for the league, then they should have been required for the DL.

The clubs obviously decided facilities weren't necessary for next year's league - therefore they shouldn't have formed part of any criteria.

[pineapple stu]

I never said it was ideal, but it's an improvement.
It's not an improvement in the slightest. The problem is that, next year, Bangor are going to get hammered and Portadown are going to walk the First Division, and the following year, we'll be back exactly where we should have been, and life will go on. Galway and Dundalk this year are showing how it'll be done.

What the morons in charge in the FAI and the IFA (and those who agree with their process) haven't realised is that football isn't played on scorecards of makey-uppey attributes; it's played on the pitch, and no matter how you mess about with things, the strongest clubs will always rise to the top again.

[waide]

As an Il supporter who attends matches most weeks i welcomed the idea of a more professional invitational league,portadown sadly were rightly punished for their horrendous balls up,but the thing that has really angered me is the inclusion of Bangor and institute ahead of D Celtic.When the list of successful applicants were announced i sat in disbelief at the inclusion of bangor who have nothing to offer to the new league,no fan base ,crap facilities,some will argue that d c are the same but at least there is potential there for vast improvement,something sadly that will never come tofruition now.

[AnnaghRed]

One step back, but two forwards.

Namely, McCutcheon and Smith.

Its a bit rich a Coleraine fan having a laugh at this considering your own clubs skullduggery, no?

I would suggest that the Ports have no other option but to accept the decision though i doubt we'll walk the PIL considering the players we'll likely lose.

I hope DC have the bottle and the grounds to drag the IFA into court, but I doubt it.

[pól-dcfc]

Its a bit rich a Coleraine fan having a laugh at this considering your own clubs skullduggery, no?

I would suggest that the Ports have no other option but to accept the decision though i doubt we'll walk the PIL considering the players we'll likely lose.

I hope DC have the bottle and the grounds to drag the IFA into court, but I doubt it.

It would destroy the game in the North if they did. No UEFA comps for national or club teams etc. The league would look a joke. They should take it lying down, and try and get up next year. I hope they do get promoted next season, because with a few years in the top flight they could become a big side in West Hellfast. Takes more than 2 seasons to win the barstoolers over.

[Blanchflower]

When the list of successful applicants were announced i sat in disbelief at the inclusion of bangor who have nothing to offer to the new league,no fan base ,crap facilities,some will argue that d c are the same but at least there is potential there for vast improvement,something sadly that will never come tofruition now.
Plus DC have proved on the pitch that they are a top 12 club.

[Morrissey]

Its a bit rich a Coleraine fan having a laugh at this considering your own clubs skullduggery, no?
.


Not really, no.

It's two steps forward, but one back. You're the fall guy. I have sympathy with the fans, but not for the club. Believe me, having been to the abyss, relegation is merely a blip.

And what grounds do DC for going to court? Oh, wait........

[Morrissey]

Also nice to see Sinn Fein getting involved in DC's exclusion.

I'm pretty confident that contravenes a FIFA statute.

Good work so far lads. We're laughing, and waving.

[Blanchflower]

I don't think the Provos have been great friends of DC in the past: intimidating them out of playing a fixture against the RUC and less than supportive of their efforts to build the club.

[Morrissey]

The system aside, the league will work itself out in a year or two. We will have the best clubs in the country in its top flight league.


Maybe slightly elongated route to get there, but progress.

[Schumi]

The system aside, the league will work itself out in a year or two. We will have the best clubs in the country in its top flight league.


Maybe slightly elongated route to get there, but progress.

How is it progress when that would have happened instantly by just applying promotion/relegation normally to clubs with a licence?

[Blanchflower]

How is it progress when that would have happened instantly by just applying promotion/relegation normally to clubs with a licence?
Exactly.

Why have a convoluted system for year 1 only? And then promotion/relegation for clubs with a licence for every year thereafter?

[Not Brazil]

I hope DC have the bottle and the grounds to drag the IFA into court, but I doubt it.

On what grounds, exactly?:confused:

[TheBoss]

Do you's think it as possible that Donegal Celtic and Portadown might want to play in the League of Ireland ?

[AnnaghRed]

On what grounds, exactly?:confused:

Dont know. Coleraine being awarded a domestic licence but being denied a UEFA might be one avenue they could exploit.

[AnnaghRed]

Do you's think it as possible that Donegal Celtic and Portadown might want to play in the League of Ireland ?


Donegal Celtic might want to go down that route, but I couldn't see Portadown taking it. We'll just bide our time and wait to see what punishment is handed out to the next club to f*ck up.

[holidaysong]

Do you's think it as possible that Donegal Celtic and Portadown might want to play in the League of Ireland ?

Other issues aside, I'd say it would be easier to try and get promoted back up to the top flight in NI than to come down here and try and do the same.

[TheBoss]

But will they be allowed to get promoted ?

[holidaysong]

But will they be allowed to get promoted ?

There will be relegation and promotion in the coming season. The terms of it have not been worked out yet though. If they finish in the promotion spot and they can get a domestic licence (facilities and finances are all in order) then they will be promoted.

[waide]

Do you's think it as possible that Donegal Celtic and Portadown might want to play in the League of Ireland ?I would not blame dc if they applied to the loi for they haven't a fair deal from the il.

[Not Brazil]

I would not blame dc if they applied to the loi for they haven't a fair deal from the il.

They had the same "fair deal" as everybody else did in the invitational league application process.

They knew the rules of the game - they failed.

That's life.

[waide]

They had the same "fair deal" as everybody else did in the invitational league application process.

They knew the rules of the game - they failed.

That's life.Obviously they failed and the i l will be all the poorer for it,but i have a feeling that this has a bit to run yet.

[thischarmingman]

They should start talking to the FAI, at the very least it'll scare the bejesus out of the IFA.

[Steve Bruce]

They should start talking to the FAI, at the very least it'll scare the bejesus out of the IFA.

It's not as easy as that. AFAIK you have to get permission from your own FA to leave before you can gain entry to another jurisdiction.

[pól-dcfc]

It's not as easy as that. AFAIK you have to get permission from your own FA to leave before you can gain entry to another jurisdiction.

I think this may have changed with the development of the EU Common Market. I'm not 100% sure, but possibly a refusal to let a club move would be an infringement of their right to trade across Europe?

UEFA would obviously have to agree though, otherwise they could just kick the FAI out. Can't imagine it happening though.

[Blanchflower]

I think this may have changed with the development of the EU Common Market. I'm not 100% sure, but possibly a refusal to let a club move would be an infringement of their right to trade across Europe?



So there's no barrier to Celtic and Rangers joining the English Premiership, then?

Or Ajax joining the Bundesliga?

etc, etc

[pól-dcfc]

So there's no barrier to Celtic and Rangers joining the English Premiership, then?

Or Ajax joining the Bundesliga?

etc, etc

Bar the disapproval of UEFA and the subsequent expulsion of the national FA.

Technically a club could do as they please, but it would have to be outwith the realms of FIFA and UEFA.

[Graemerz]

Do you's think it as possible that Donegal Celtic and Portadown might want to play in the League of Ireland ?

You wouldn't want DC in your league. They're rubbish.

[TheBoss]

Whether they are good or not good is irrelevant, just saying they might want to move.

[Schumi]

So there's no barrier to Celtic and Rangers joining the English Premiership, then?

Or Ajax joining the Bundesliga?

etc, etc

The league they want to move into would have to agree. Clubs flirting with relegation most years would be unlikely to agree to being pushed down another place or two.

The FAI wouldn't allow this unless the IFA were onboard I'd say so there's no real chance of another Northern club joining the League of Ireland.

[Graemerz]

Whether they are good or not good is irrelevant, just saying they might want to move.

I'd be surprised if the FAI would have any interest in inviting Donegal Celtic to their league after witnessing what they brought (or more importantly what they didn't) to the Northern Ireland league.

[AnnaghRed]

I'd be surprised if the FAI would have any interest in inviting Donegal Celtic to their league after witnessing what they brought (or more importantly what they didn't) to the Northern Ireland league.

What did you expect from DC?

They finished 13th last season above established clubs Glenavon and Larne, and 11th this season, again above Glenavon and Larne.

Personally, I wont be surprised if they finish above Portadown in next seasons PIL, on team spirit alone :(

That a club who finished 8 places below them in our league structure has taken their place, simply for having a better ground, must be very hard to take.

Bangor may be a big enough town, but its footballing public has always tended to support Linfield or Glentoran, even during the heady days of Nigel Best.

[Blanchflower]

Bar the disapproval of UEFA and the subsequent expulsion of the national FA.



In other words, it can't happen!

(And it's got nothing to do with the EU, otherwise UEFA's rules would be unlawful and would have to change cf. Bosman.)