Head to head: Trap versus Venables

[ifk101]

I want to dismiss Trapattoni's record, becasue I live in Stuttgart, am a VFB and Ireland fan, and I don't want to see him as manager of the Irish national team...As an aside I had a log-in here ages ago but it was removed, because I'm normally just a reader, no time for posting....

I'd like to have an argument based on facts and, as I have had first hand with Trapattoni than most (anyone?) on this board, I thought I'd offer my tuppence worth....you don't have to read it if your afraid of being manipulated by El Tel's fifth column :D

So; what has Trap done since 1989?

NTW Qualifying a football super power for a tournament doesn't count...neither does winning the austrian league with a shedload of cash.

Ask Grojkaer and Tomasson about him:
At the beginning of February 2006, Grønkjær and Tomasson openly criticised Trapattoni as "lacking the will to attack and win." The criticism came after 12 drawn games out of 20, and although Trapattoni wanted to assert his authority and benched both players in the next game, he himself was fired the very next day, on 9 February 2006"

This is not the man to nurture our current generation of exciting young players...and if he comes it will also spell the end of Duff and Keane who promised so much in 2002.

Would you not ask yourself why he has been only able to find work in the austrian league; it's not right to name-drop clubs he's been involved with and conclude that, well, he must be good.

If you don't know his name, and your were told we were getting the manager of Salzburg as international coach; would you be happy?

The fact is that he is there, because he does not have what is takes to manage at the top level any more...

In the words of Terry Venables; "If you can't outplay the opposition, you must outnumber them."

[Morbo]

I seriously doubt he would drop Keane or Duff just because he has a defensive style, any manager worth his salt knows you have you use the best resources available to you and since we aren't blessed with an abundance of quality defensive players then I doubt he is going to replace Keane or Duff with substandard defensive players

[dr_peepee]

I want to dismiss Trapattoni's record, becasue I live in Stuttgart, am a VFB and Ireland fan, and I don't want to see him as manager of the Irish national team...As an aside I had a log-in here ages ago but it was removed, because I'm normally just a reader, no time for posting....

I'd like to have an argument based on facts and, as I have had first hand with Trapattoni than most (anyone?) on this board, I thought I'd offer my tuppence worth....you don't have to read it if your afraid of being manipulated by El Tel's fifth column :D

So; what has Trap done since 1989?

NTW Qualifying a football super power for a tournament doesn't count...neither does winning the austrian league with a shedload of cash.

Ask Grojkaer and Tomasson about him:
At the beginning of February 2006, Grønkjær and Tomasson openly criticised Trapattoni as "lacking the will to attack and win." The criticism came after 12 drawn games out of 20, and although Trapattoni wanted to assert his authority and benched both players in the next game, he himself was fired the very next day, on 9 February 2006"

This is not the man to nurture our current generation of exciting young players...and if he comes it will also spell the end of Duff and Keane who promised so much in 2002.

Would you not ask yourself why he has been only able to find work in the austrian league; it's not right to name-drop clubs he's been involved with and conclude that, well, he must be good.

If you don't know his name, and your were told we were getting the manager of Salzburg as international coach; would you be happy?

The fact is that he is there, because he does not have what is takes to manage at the top level any more...



I'm not in a position to counter the legitimacy of your opinion...

What I'm asking though is that do you think Venables is a better option? And who do you think we could realistically appoint??

At the very worst, Trapp is the best manager available to us..

(Though my opinion on Tel is hitting peaks and troughs... I think the FAI psychological warfare is working)

[del_carroll]

Morbo: I wouldn't have said he would drop them, but the way a team is set up does hugely affect how players perform....look what happened to Duff at Chelsea.

I have seen a single other poster arguing anything but that Trapattoni would be manna from heaven from us. I wanted to balance up that argument somewhat.

....to be honest I haven't seen a single candidate to get overly excited about; Coppell, Sanchez, Venables, Sheridan, Big Sam, Troussier even O'Leary would all be more suitable candidates.

The salary for the Ireland job is very attractive by international standards, so I can't understand why the lineup is so ordinary. I'm not being paid to go and headhunt a candidate; up to now the return from the 3 amigos has been poor in my opinion.

[del_carroll]

osarusan (http://foot.ie/member.php?u=3191) http://foot.ie/inc//img/statusicon/user_offline.gif
First Team


oops; you're right about the aussies; but second round against the s koreans is still pooh

cheers

[Stuttgart88]

(Though my opinion on Tel is hitting peaks and troughs... I think the FAI psychological warfare is working)Me too, I need a shrink.

I think DC has made a very interesting contribution - not many have first hand experience of the man.

It's certainly planted doubt in my mind.

I fully agree that qualifying Italy for 2 tournaments is the minimum you'd expect.

[ifk101]

As the RTE panel have said before, there's a risk attached to every managerial appointment made.

Appointing Trap would be a risk but IMO we need to try something new not vested in the British way of thinking.

The thing about TV he is only interested in an international job - because he doesn't have the time to commit himself to full-time, club football. So we have it already in a nutshell - he sees the job as 10 odd international fixtures each year for which he wants a seven-digit wage. His dubious motivation for the position is further highlighted by the terms in which he was interested in taking the Bulgarian job - he wasn't interested in re-locating to Bulgaria, the only commitment he was prepared to make was he was willing to watch a few dvds of matches. And what success has TV had - in his whole career?? And lets not forget his recent claim to fame - as Steve McClaren's right hand man.

I don't value the opinion of players such as Grønkjær and Tomasson - renowned whingers. What wasn't mentioned before was that neither of this players featured in the Stuttgart team after Trap. Stuttgart sold Grønkjær to FCK and Tomasson wasn't part of the first team squad until Villareal came along and took him away from the club on loan.

[JamesB]

I've no first hand experience and my source for this is purely the net and largely wikipedia at that, but since 89
-won the uefa cup with inter
-he has come runner up twice in Serie A with Juve, won the uefa with them and runner up in the italian cup
-won and was runner up in the bundesliga with bayern (+youtube outburst)
-did nothing with cagliari
-got Fiorentina into the champions league
-was disappointing with Italy,
you have to imagine, after a poor performance with Italy and then at 65, top clubs didn't want to take a risk on him (pure speculation)
he could have left it at that but he didn't, since then he has gone on to
-manage benfica, where he won the Portuguese league
-stuttgart where he was poor
-and now salzburg where he has won the league and is currently second

El Tel all the way

[NeilMcD]

Are you joking James with your El all the way, cause the rest of your post suggests you want the Trap

[Ireland4ever]

Are you joking James with your El all the way, cause the rest of your post suggests you want the Trap

Hi Neil, meet my good friend sarcasm!;):D

[Wolfie]

I want to dismiss Trapattoni's record, becasue I live in Stuttgart, am a VFB and Ireland fan, and I don't want to see him as manager of the Irish national team...As an aside I had a log-in here ages ago but it was removed, because I'm normally just a reader, no time for posting....

I'd like to have an argument based on facts and, as I have had first hand with Trapattoni than most (anyone?) on this board, I thought I'd offer my tuppence worth....you don't have to read it if your afraid of being manipulated by El Tel's fifth column :D

So; what has Trap done since 1989?

NTW Qualifying a football super power for a tournament doesn't count...neither does winning the austrian league with a shedload of cash.

Ask Grojkaer and Tomasson about him:
At the beginning of February 2006, Grønkjær and Tomasson openly criticised Trapattoni as "lacking the will to attack and win." The criticism came after 12 drawn games out of 20, and although Trapattoni wanted to assert his authority and benched both players in the next game, he himself was fired the very next day, on 9 February 2006"

This is not the man to nurture our current generation of exciting young players...and if he comes it will also spell the end of Duff and Keane who promised so much in 2002.

Would you not ask yourself why he has been only able to find work in the austrian league; it's not right to name-drop clubs he's been involved with and conclude that, well, he must be good.

If you don't know his name, and your were told we were getting the manager of Salzburg as international coach; would you be happy?

The fact is that he is there, because he does not have what is takes to manage at the top level any more...

Food for thought there, Des.

Given his age, style of play and contrary nature I really think we'd need Brady as the assistant for this to have a chance of working any where near effectively.

For this ultra defensive style of play to work you need to have predatory forward players that can ruthlessly convert limited chances into goals. A striker could conceiveably get one good chance in an entire game - he has to take it.

[NeilMcD]

Hi Neil, meet my good friend sarcasm!;):D

I was just clarifying there.

[bennocelt]

I've no first hand experience and my source for this is purely the net and largely wikipedia at that, but since 89


man!:eek:

[Billsthoughts]

I was just clarifying there.

genius....

[drogfood]

now live www.trapVtel.com (http://www.trapVtel.com) come and vote for who you want as Ireland manager - all votes will be sent automatically to the FAI - website contains full CVs, profiles and stats for each candidate. you can also leave a comment which will also be sent to the fai automatically - c'mon get voting before they appoint someone - let the fai know what you think - strength in numbers - www.trapVtel.com (http://www.trapVtel.com)

[eekers]

i love the biased 'sacked from' bit!

[RogerMilla]

excellent idea , the fai will have the rigth hump with all the mails though!

[amaccann]

That's a helluva honours list for someone people have the cheek to call "defensive". As Giles & Dunphy remarked, I'd hate to see what he'd have done were he not.

Nice site idea though, cheeky :)

[tetsujin1979]

Just got a mention on Off The Ball

[eekers]

what stops me voting for venables a few thousand times?

[Armando]

Your conscience?

[sligoman]

what stops me voting for venables a few thousand times?The fact that you have(or at least should have) a life?:p

[kennedmc]

Didn't Venables win the league cup and finish runner up in the European cup in 86? The site doesn't mention that which is pretty slack from the people who did it. Did they type in the CV's from the daily Star or something?

Trap has a great record with the 3 big Italian clubs that win nearly everthing every year in Italy - he also had some of the worlds best player at his disposal. As for the football was his style defensive and boring.....is the way he plays any different than Geogre Graham?

I'm not in one camp or the other I just think that the gap between Trap and TV isn't as big as some people make out.Were QPR, Spurs or Palace ever going to win the league in the last 30 years - you bet your arse they weren't no matter who was managing them.

I want to person in the job that can get the best reuslts for us - simple as that.

[eirebhoy]

I want to person in the job that can get the best reuslts for us - simple as that.
And you'd favour Venables over Trap why? Benfica have won the Portuguese league once in the last 14 years. That was in Trap's only season with the club 2 years ago. Benfica had a very similar squad of players to us. Their defense wasn't great. They played the nippy Nuno Gomez up front. Simao was one of the 3 players behind him. Geovanni another. The guy Stephen Ireland keeps out of the Man City team. And the other was a full back turned attacking midfielder. He gave a young box to box midfielder his chance and made him a regular as one of the 2 central midfielders. Petit held midfield. That's a very attacking lineup on paper but obviously his tactics are conservative. Also, Luisao of that Benfica team was in the papers this week praising him.

I do really think we could field a similar quality team to Benfica's in that 4-2-3-1 system.

[Noelys Guitar]

According to Chatsoccer Trap has no intention of being interviewed. Any potential meeting with the amigos will be at his behest (if he is really interested in the job. I don't think he is). Meanwhile back at Migo HQ the 3 lads interviewed B.Davies today. Again according to chatsoccer the interview was a lengthy one. Something is amiss with the top 2 bookies favs. Bondvillian might be right with his Trap not interested and the ABV's within the FAI.

[kennedmc]

And you'd favour Venables over Trap why?



When did I say thay??!! I'm simply making the point that the site appeared to leave out some basic facts on TV.

No doubt Trap has a better record. I posted some of my concerns on this site last Sunday as to how things might turn out less than perfect with Trap.......based on what may happen......

There are no guarantees in football management.

[eirebhoy]

When did I say thay??!! I'm simply making the point that the site appeared to leave out some basic facts on TV.
Sorry. The George Graham comment caught me. ;)

[eirebhoy]

According to Chatsoccer Trap has no intention of being interviewed.
I think the most relevant bit is "Let me say that if he did not wish to be considered we would have heard it loud and clear from him". Whether he wants to be interviewed or not, he's certainly interested in the job.

[Bondvillain]

I think the most relevant bit is "Let me say that if he did not wish to be considered we would have heard it loud and clear from him". Whether he wants to be interviewed or not, he's certainly interested in the job.

But the next line is
As it stands he and his close confidants are very tight lipped and so we must assume he wants the job,

Thats a pretty big leap. That's 'Weapons of mass distruction' press release territory, that is:

"He hasn't said he doesnt want it, therefore he must want it".

No one in the media would dare suggest that although he may be flattered being considered at his age for an International job after seemingly retiring to Austria to wind down his career in a non-media hotspot, he may just be keeping quiet as the rumour has seemingly become inseperable from fact, and constant interruption is affecting his ability to do his contracted day job (witness the unadulterated muppetry of Star journalists travelling to Saltzburg to stand pointlessly beside him for an oul photo during a training session....:rolleyes:)

In the bigger picture, if we are to take "No official contact + silence = interest", we can further assume that since Scolari hasn't said he doesn't want it , nor has Jose, nor Alex Ferguson, they all must want it, as we can safely assume there has been no official contact with them either, and, hey! they're all "tight lipped" on the subject too....

Jaysus. There was me thinking we were going to be stuck with a choice between Venables and anyone but venables, when in reality, every A-lister in football wants the gig!

Woo-Hoo! Happy days! :D

(Ok, Im taking the p!ss, but in fairness, I think that the general acceptance of Givens & Co's ability to nab Trap as the anti-venables is giving the FAI far too much credit, and we're setting ourselves up for a mighty disappointment when either Candidate Venables or Candidate "Oh God, anyone but Venables" is eventually appointed.)

[eirebhoy]

I just can't see any reason why he wouldn't deny all the speculation out straight if he didn't want the job. Unless he enjoys playing the media.

btw, I know you're going to the extreme to emphasise your point but there's no comparison. The Irish media are not over in Portugal asking Scolari or Mourinho questions. They are over in Austria though and have met Trap but still no denial.

[Bondvillain]

I just can't see any reason why he wouldn't deny all the speculation out straight if he didn't want the job. Unless he enjoys playing the media.



I do really think that may be it. A radio report during the week affirmed that he was a genuine enough bloke, with little or no frills, but that his ego is undeniably massaged by his sudden reappearance in the international media (particularly in Italy's hallowed sport pages, considering large sections of the media there still rate him poorly after his WC escapades) after apparently retiring below their horizon to a lesser viewed league. Who could blame him?

Or, who's to say he isn't pulling a Cloughie and using the FAI as a bargaining tool to negotiate one more well paid year in Austria?
He'd have no new language to learn, there'd be no upsetting the wife, no flights to rainy Dublin, no listening to John Delaney making that lying noise when his lips move, just a pleasant retirement in the Alps at age 70 with a large wedge of cash to sleep on....

Whatever the reason is, I do think it has very little to do with the FAI committee's negotiation skills...

[Noelys Guitar]

I just can't see any reason why he wouldn't deny all the speculation out straight if he didn't want the job. Unless he enjoys playing the media.

btw, I know you're going to the extreme to emphasise your point but there's no comparison. The Irish media are not over in Portugal asking Scolari or Mourinho questions. They are over in Austria though and have met Trap but still no denial.

I can't get my head round the reason for the Davies interview today. Davies knows that Trap and Venables are the bookies favs so why would he put himself through this process unless someone has led him to believe that he has some chance of getting the job.

[eirebhoy]

I can't get my head round the reason for the Davies interview today. Davies knows that Trap and Venables are the bookies favs so why would he put himself through this process unless someone has led him to believe that he has some chance of getting the job.
Maybe he just believes in himself. Like anything really, there's no such thing as too many interviews or job applications.

[drogfood]

trap beating tel by more than 10 to 1 on www.trapVtel.com (http://www.trapVtel.com) - good to see the fans voting and all votes going direct to the FAI

[tetsujin1979]

I don't really know how I feel about every vote going directly to the FAI, things like this have happened before with charitable organisations. Ever get emails along the lines of "add your name to the following petition, and if your position on the list ends in zero (i.e. 10, 20, 30, etc) please forward it to the following address"?
These just waste time and bandwidth for the charity concerned, and end up getting ignored.
While we do want to influence the FAI to make the right decision, we don't want to annoy them in the process

[Bondvillain]

trap beating tel by more than 10 to 1 on www.trapVtel.com (http://www.trapVtel.com) - good to see the fans voting and all votes going direct to the FAI

So, you're saying this novelty site has produced about 200 emails on the same subject with the same text which have been sent unsolicited to the FAI in the last 48 hours?

Do you not think their ould spam trap would have it sussed by now?

[Bondvillain]

And, as a follow up, isn't email bombardment illegal now? I mean, sending them the results of your poll in one unsolicited email is one thing, but sending them individual emails for each vote in a poll they neither commissioned nor opted into is quite another...

If all the emails say the same thing and are all coming from the same domain, surely that could be legally classed as harassment, couldnt it?

Never mind. I assume that this was well thought out and that you have yourself , your motives and your identity well protected in advance of any Garda investigation the FAI may choose to instigate.

[drogfood]

thats actually quite interesting about the unsolicited emails and harassment bit but i'd just take you back to a precedent set when senator shane ross encouraged the whole country to send sh1tty nappies to the minister in charge of the groceries bill...was that not harassment? I'm sure the minister in question did not solicit them...and anyway, if the FAI want to make a song and dance out of listening to the fans views on who we want as next manager I'm sure they'll look even bigger fools than they are.

And what happened the original thread regarding www.trapVtel.com (http://www.trapVtel.com)?

[Bondvillain]

thats actually quite interesting about the unsolicited emails and harassment bit but i'd just take you back to a precedent set when senator shane ross encouraged the whole country to send sh1tty nappies to the minister in charge of the groceries bill...was that not harassment? I'm sure the minister in question did not solicit them...and anyway, if the FAI want to make a song and dance out of listening to the fans views on who we want as next manager I'm sure they'll look even bigger fools than they are.

And what happened the original thread regarding www.trapVtel.com (http://www.trapVtel.com)?

Yes, the Ross episode was considered incitement to harrassment.That was pretty much why, despite many people actually agreeing with him in principle, he was roundly criticised for suggesting such a thing (not actually going ahead with it it himself, you'll notice. Subtle difference there, "incitement". And as he did not actually deliver 200 soiled nappies personally to the relevant minister, it cant really be considered a precedent for what you're currently doing), even though most knew , that unlike an electronic email, a full nappy would be difficult to courier to an agreed destination.

I dont personally think what you're doing is correct, but each to his own. I just think you should be careful, e-law & the abuse thereof is a minefield.

Regarding your original thread and its wherabouts, it was assimilated into the relevant existing thread discussing the merits of potential (realistically or not) Irish managers. As this one no doubt will be.

[Qwerty]

Do you not think their ould spam trap would have it sussed by now?

I don't think they use one as it would block all outgoing mail tish boom :)

[eirebhoy]

And what happened the original thread regarding www.trapVtel.com (http://www.trapVtel.com)?
I feel like deleting all your posts after that comment. As you know, your thread was merged with this one because it's very similar. Don't post that link again. We know about it by now.