Kilkenny might not be around next season.

[Kildare Lad]

what should happen is they organise a friendly and supporters from all other club turn up to game and show support like wrexham a couple of years ago

I reckon that would be a good idea if possible to organise.

[ramsfan]

good old mick, has the supporters as no1, will never forget the free feed we got in the club house when we played ye in wexford. top man

[ramsfan]

I reckon that would be a good idea if possible to organise.

surely cant be that hard get a player from each div1/prem to make up panel and play against kilkenny 11
could sell tickets online?or by phone if people bought and go or not would show support and could go in your teams colours
its not a donation but a proper football way of helping

[Den Perry]

Amlj, you are just confirming my point. For whatever reason, I don't think there is enough support for Kilkenny City Football Club. As for the GAA references in your reply, I proudly hold a record of having never seen or been to a GAA game in my 45 years.
I have been to LOI matches since I was 10 and growing up in Dublin (I think 0-0 was a comulpsory score back then). I went to all the internationals in Dalymount and later Landsdowne Rd when you could easily buy a ticket at the gate. I have travelled the SE with my sons playing schoolboy football in all weathers. In short, if KK were my team, I'd be there even if they were bottom and I don't think there are enough of my type in your area.This is a pity for true fans of the game, which I'm presuming you are

very good point..you should follow your team through thick and thin

[oldyouth]

good old mick, has the supporters as no1, will never forget the free feed we got in the club house when we played ye in wexford. top man

Ramsfan, that wasn't a 'free feed'. Mick's still has your unpaid bill and a photo of you stuck up on the club house wall

[trevy]

Do the public in Kilkenny want the club to survive? Thats the key question. Hurling is obviously the main sport in Kilkenny and trying to attract fans to watch a club that usually finishes bottom of division 1 is going to be very hard,especially as the ground is a bit out of the way. I'm living in Kilkenny the last few months due to work and never hear anyone talking about Kilkenny City fc and the local media usually has more on junior soccer. I wouldn't like to see any club fold and it'd certainly be a nice away trip next season for the Blues but if the club is only going to get tiny crowds and keep struggling it's hard to what the future is.

[Neish]

Do the public in Kilkenny want the club to survive? Thats the key question. Hurling is obviously the main sport in Kilkenny and trying to attract fans to watch a club that usually finishes bottom of division 1 is going to be very hard,especially as the ground is a bit out of the way. I'm living in Kilkenny the last few months due to work and never hear anyone talking about Kilkenny City fc and the local media usually has more on junior soccer. I wouldn't like to see any club fold and it'd certainly be a nice away trip next season for the Blues but if the club is only going to get tiny crowds and keep struggling it's hard to what the future is.

I blame this guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DJ_Carey

[ramsfan]

there always one, i blame him too:D:D;)

[ramsfan]

reality is very little have an interest in eircom league soccer, i worked in kilkenny for a while and all that was mentioned was kilkenny hurling they talk about it from underage to senior grade all are more important than soccer
for a small county to have such big success at hurling you cant really blame them. a shame but i believe even if kilkenny were to win cup i still dont think you would get people intersted long term:(

[KianD]

I blame this guy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DJ_Carey

I thought we were blaming Henry Shefflin at the last league game? ;)

[finnpark]

I find the whole thing bizarre.

One member of the board gets sick so there is no one there to run the club? How very unprofessional.

[dcfcsteve]

Sad to see any club demise - particularly one like Kilkenny, who are difficult to dislike.

But it's head over heart time here. A lot of posters have commented how Kilkenny's €50k debt is nothing or easily manageable. Well - I'd be surprised if Kilkenny made any sort of profit every year. A €50k debt is far from nothing when nothing is all that you make every year.

The bottom line with Kilkenny is that they are a business that is running on empty. Rightly or wrongly, their product is largely unwanted locally and they have very limited volunteers to run them, and if those persist they will eventually go to the wall. To ignore that factual scenario would be ludicrous. A previous poster mentioned the whole 'if only they had someone who could pay off their €50k debt, then they'd be ok'. No they wouldn't. They would still face the fundamental problem of being a business with a product that is largely unwanted. Short-term sticky plaster cheques do not make clubs viable prospects - and very often just allow them to continue doing what was making them unviable in the first place (e.g. Dublin City, Shelbourne).

Reports say that Rhatigan is talking to "investors" about putting money into the club. Firstly - I've yet to hear of anyone who has put money into Irish football and made anything on it, so "Investors" is just a palatable way of saying 'fools who will throw money at the problem before getting frustrated and walking away when the cold reality eventually bites them'. The jury will be out for a long time on whether Arkaga can make money out of Cork City - a town with a much larger population and footballing tradition than Kilkenny.

The harsh reality is that if Kilkenny can't operate as a viable business in the EL First Division, then they are sitting on the wrong branch of the footballing tree. It gives me no pleasure to say that, but it is an unavoidable fact.

That leaves them only 4 choices to choose from :

1) Drop to a lower level (A League ?).
2) Institute a realistic plan that will dramatically increase their revenues in the short-to-medium-term (dependent on whetehr they need to clear their debt quickly; thoughhard to see a plan that would work so quickly for them).
3) Bury their head in the sand about their viability, and go bust sooner or later (what most unviable EL clubs do).
4) Struggle through with the same current set-up, vainly hoping that the rest of the EL will fall down to their level, allowing them to compete (they'd go bust first).

I would fully expect Jim Rhatigan would have no interest in countenancing any of the above options intentionally - and rightly so, for a man who has given his life to the club. But by so doing he will probably just continue the status quo that will eventually end in Option 3 above. Clubs have no god-given right to continue in football if they can't make their finances work - regardless of how sentimental we want to be about them. Kilkenny are just the latest Irish club to have to face-up to this.

[pineapple stu]

But it's head over heart time here. A lot of posters have commented how Kilkenny's €50k debt is nothing or easily manageable. Well - I'd be surprised if Kilkenny made any sort of profit every year.
Prepare to be surprised so - they made E6k profit in 2005 and E13k profit in the 2006 season. Their accounts then stated their overall debt to be E76k.

Always thought relegation would do Kilkenny some good - give them the chance of competing at the top of a league (the A League) for a while and try and get some support while they're relatively successful.

[A face]

But it's head over heart time here. A lot of posters have commented how Kilkenny's €50k debt is nothing or easily manageable. Well - I'd be surprised if Kilkenny made any sort of profit every year. A €50k debt is far from nothing when nothing is all that you make every year.

Kilkenny all down through the years has been run very well financially, they cut their cloth accordingly and always have done. The day to day, year to year running of the club has been a text book case of what clubs need to do. The 50K is from the development of the new stand, most of which has been covered afaik.

This is not a club who are living beyond their means as regards the football side of things and it seems that they had nearly everything covered on the development side of things.

I take you point on board steve but not all of what you're saying is true there.

[dcfcsteve]

Prepare to be surprised so - they made E6k profit in 2005 and E13k profit in the 2006 season. Their accounts then stated their overall debt to be E76k.

So they are running at a current debt level that is somewhere between three and eight times their annual 'profit' (or between 6 and 12 times profit, depending on whether you want to compare profits and debts from the same accounting years or not). Hardly a sustainable business model, regardless of the fact they made a miniscule profit.


Always thought relegation would do Kilkenny some good - give them the chance of competing at the top of a league (the A League) for a while and try and get some support while they're relatively successful.

My point indeed.


Kilkenny all down through the years has been run very well financially, they cut their cloth accordingly and always have done. The day to day, year to year running of the club has been a text book case of what clubs need to do. The 50K is from the development of the new stand, most of which has been covered afaik.

This is not a club who are living beyond their means as regards the football side of things and it seems that they had nearly everything covered on the development side of things.

I take you point on board steve but not all of what you're saying is true there.

I accept your arguement, but my fundamental point is about the viability of certain clubs at certain levels in the footballing tree.

From what you say, Kilkenny City are run largely within their means (though running up a debt that is 3-8 times your annual 'profit' ia hardly evidence of operating within your means...!). Despite this, they have finished bottom of the senior footballing pile for the last 2 seasons in a row. That suggests that they are either very badly managed, not viable as a First Division team, or that most or all other First Division teams are not playing to the same financial rules as KCFC are. Whilst there is undoubtedly a degree of the latter, I suspect the harsh reality is that the support levels for Kilkenny City are not sufficient to enable them to compete effectively at the level they're currently at.

The advent of the A League may serve to wash a couple of the current senior clubs that live close to the knuckle out of the First Division.

[patcorr]

Unfortunatly it would seem for us, that our Wimbledon type fairytale may be over. When Hamman left Wimbledon the club fell apart. And now the same is going to happen Kilkenny City with Jimmy Rhatigan.
I have been supporting the club through the bad years and the good years. The good memories will be some of the happiest of my life, when your team is fighting tooth and nail to win a game, or when you are just winning to.
The bad memories of when the team is bottom of the league and only manage two points for the season. Almost a record in all of europe I heard people say.
Winning the First Divsion title for the first time in 1997. Our best ever season.
Well at least if the worst happens the club, I can proudly say I was there through the good and the bad.

[A face]

I accept your arguement, but my fundamental point is about the viability of certain clubs at certain levels in the footballing tree.

First up, ignore all the posts re: Kilkenny Hurling is too big so Kilkenny shouldn't even bother trying. We can all say that, every single LOI club, not one doesn't suffer from it.


From what you say, Kilkenny City are run largely within their means (though running up a debt that is 3-8 times your annual 'profit' ia hardly evidence of operating within your means...!).

I could guarantee you that if Jim was in full health it wouldn't be nearly as bad as it seems. The guy is unreal, dont ask me how he does it.


Despite this, they have finished bottom of the senior footballing pile for the last 2 seasons in a row. That suggests that they are either very badly managed, not viable as a First Division team

Admittedly things on the pitch have been put on hold while developing the ground. Lots of international games played there in the past but very few played there in the last 5 years. I dont know, its not my place to say it but i question why the games actually stopped. Was the ground developed with this in mind i dont know but i would see it as a kick in the teeth if i had gone to all that effort. I'm not suggesting anything .... honest, i swear.


or that most or all other First Division teams are not playing to the same financial rules as KCFC are. Whilst there is undoubtedly a degree of the latter,

Well if other clubs struggle to have their books in order (you only struggle to have your books in order if the figures dont add up, no other reason) and Kilkenny City has a history of at least 20 years of impeccable accounts then it definitely isn't a level playing field.


I suspect the harsh reality is that the support levels for Kilkenny City are not sufficient to enable them to compete effectively at the level they're currently at.

Over the last three years the numbers have dropped off alright, directly related to the lack of investment on the pitch, but like all clubs that picks up again as soon as that can change. Name a club that hasn't gone through a bad time, i can remember games at the cross when there was only 800. Crowds at Buckley Park have dropped off, things might be different if the crowds were there through the 'thin' but to suggest they shouldn't be there when they have been fine for years is mad. I think some fans have short memories.

Wouldn't it have been worse if debts were ignored and players were bought, its not like we haven't seen that in the past.


The advent of the A League may serve to wash a couple of the current senior clubs that live close to the knuckle out of the First Division.

Maybe the A League is the answer right now for Kilkenny, but as soon as they are sorted i cant see a reason why they should be back up in the first giving it as good as everyone else. Did Ramblers think they'd be in top flight 5 years ago, not a chance when John (whos surname escapes me now, played for Shels and in Belgium for a while till he got a bad leg injury, red hair) was managing them and half the board were actively trying to get rid of him, cursing when they won a game. Ramblers are in the Top Flight this year on merit after coming through their bad patch.

Its swings and roundabouts for all clubs.

[seand60]

Obviously Jim Rhatigans motto that you cant spend €3 when you are only taking in €2 wasnt working!

[dcfcsteve]

Unfortunatly it would seem for us, that our Wimbledon type fairytale may be over. When Hamman left Wimbledon the club fell apart. And now the same is going to happen Kilkenny City with Jimmy Rhatigan.

I have to correct you on that comparison Pat, as it's unfair on Jim !

Sam Hamman was the man who put Wimbledon on the direct road to disaster. He was the one who took them out of Plough Lane, with no plans for an alternative stadium (a la Louis Kilcoyne in Ireland), forcing them to groundhare in the very unpopular stadium of their main rivals (Selhurst). He then hatched the idea of moving the club to another town - primarily championing Dublin, but also talking about Belfast and Glasgow - and used that idea to persuade a bunch of gullible Norwegian business men that moving the club was more or less an eventual certainty. This allowed him to sell the club at a value above what they were actually worth. Sadly, the rest is history.

So Sam Hamman caused Wimbledon to fall apart by selling their ground, leaving them homeless, and effectively lying to the people he sold them to. He had done the damage before he'd left. From what I hear of Jim Rhatigan, he couldn't be more different in either his actions or his intentions.

[drummerboy]

According to this morning's Indo Sporting Fingal are being put on standby to replace any clubs who may not be able to take their place in the First Division.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/fingal-ready-to-step-in-if-league-club-goes-under-1266310.html

[passerrby]

and here was me thinking that licensing would decide who would play in the prem, first and A div silly me .after bringing in that shambols that was genisis he still cant get the league makeup he wants.
he should not have made such a statement prior to licensing

[ramsfan]

john o rourke, top man and quality footballer, shame his career was cut short, he was the sam allardyce of ramblers, given no time to turn things around

[pineapple stu]

So they are running at a current debt level that is somewhere between three and eight times their annual 'profit' (or between 6 and 12 times profit, depending on whether you want to compare profits and debts from the same accounting years or not). Hardly a sustainable business model, regardless of the fact they made a miniscule profit.
Profit to debt is an irrelevant ratio. If their debt is reducing, even at small levels, consistently over the last 2/2½ years, then it's clearly manageable. It'll just take longer to clear it. Turnover to debt is more important - how much cash they could have to clear the debt if they suddenly needed to.

[John83]

Profit to debt is an irrelevant ratio. If their debt is reducing, even at small levels, consistently over the last 2/2½ years, then it's clearly manageable. It'll just take longer to clear it. Turnover to debt is more important - how much cash they could have to clear the debt if they suddenly needed to.
I think it's significant that the debt seems to be from a capital expenditure (the stand). It's clubs making losses on wages and other normal expenditure which are in the most danger.

[A face]

john o rourke, top man and quality footballer, shame his career was cut short, he was the sam allardyce of ramblers, given no time to turn things around

Yeah, thats him. I was thinking O'Riordan but knew that wasn't it. Now there's a guy who got a raw deal.

[DmanDmythDledge]

According to this morning's Indo Sporting Fingal are being put on standby to replace any clubs who may not be able to take their place in the First Division.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/fingal-ready-to-step-in-if-league-club-goes-under-1266310.html
I'd say they would do well if they play in the First Division, have a lot of money which is being spent on full time players.

[soccerc]

I'd say they would do well if they play in the First Division, have a lot of money which is being spent on full time players.

All speculation (http://www.chatsoccer.eu/news/content/view/50/1/)

[dcfcsteve]

Profit to debt is an irrelevant ratio. If their debt is reducing, even at small levels, consistently over the last 2/2½ years, then it's clearly manageable. It'll just take longer to clear it. Turnover to debt is more important - how much cash they could have to clear the debt if they suddenly needed to.

I know you're an Accountant and I'm not, but I can't agree with you here.

Ratio of profit to debt is important in terms of your ability to pay off the debt in any meaningful sort of time-span.

You're suggesting that all that matters in relation to debt is turnover - i.e. how much cash-flow thery have to pay off any debt that is called-in at short notice. It is in terms of ensuring they don't go bust if faced with a debt recall. But given that their profit is way below their ongoing debts, using turnover in that way that would just be switching old debt for new debt. In otherwords, nothing would change - it'd still take them an age to pay their debt off.

I understand the concept of manageable debt, and don't buy into the idea that all debt is 'bad' - but with KCFC operating at such a low profit level (that could easily drop to a negative figure in any given season), the propensity for them to remain in debt in-effect for perpetuity appears high. Only profit (or donations, which would be treated effectively as such any way) will enable them to change that scenario.

[pineapple stu]

I know you're an Accountant and I'm not, but I can't agree with you here.
Par for the course anyway.

The problem with your argument is that it isn't usually necessary to actually pay off your debt. If, for example, the debt is a loan that you're paying off gradually, people will generally be happy with that and won't look for anything further. If Kilkenny are steadily making profits (more than most eL clubs) and steadily paying off their debt, it's manageable. Unless, of course, their one-man committee takes ill.

Consider two companies. A Ltd has turnover of E80k, profits of E10k and debt of E50k. B Ltd has turnover of E800k, profits of E10k and debt of E50k. Which is healthier? B, obviously. If it needs to pay off its debt quickly, there's greater scope for cost savings; there's also a greater cash flow so it's easier to move your debt around. That's why turnover is more important than profit here.

[dcfcsteve]

Par for the course anyway.

The problem with your argument is that it isn't usually necessary to actually pay off your debt. If, for example, the debt is a loan that you're paying off gradually, people will generally be happy with that and won't look for anything further. If Kilkenny are steadily making profits (more than most eL clubs) and steadily paying off their debt, it's manageable. Unless, of course, their one-man committee takes ill.

Consider two companies. A Ltd has turnover of E80k, profits of E10k and debt of E50k. B Ltd has turnover of E800k, profits of E10k and debt of E50k. Which is healthier? B, obviously. If it needs to pay off its debt quickly, there's greater scope for cost savings; there's also a greater cash flow so it's easier to move your debt around. That's why turnover is more important than profit here.

The irony is that it appears that neither turnover nor profit may be enough bto save Kilkenny anyway - such is the danger of being a one-man-band.

[pineapple stu]

I'll take that as being as close as you'll ever get to admitting you're wrong. ;)

[Den Perry]

The irony is that it appears that neither turnover nor profit may be enough bto save Kilkenny anyway - such is the danger of being a one-man-band.


I don't get all this one man band thing.....

[dcfcsteve]

I'll take that as being as close as you'll ever get to admitting you're wrong. ;)

You obviously haven't been following me that closely on here, as I've happily held my hands up on a number of occassions ... :)

I guess that as a UCD fan you just have to look for a victory in anything.... :D

[dcfcsteve]

I don't get all this one man band thing.....

You know, Den - guy with a bass drum strapped to his back, a suspended harmonica in his mouth and a set of cymbols in his hands. Was an entertainments staple back in the 1950's.....

[Spoons]

Got talking to one of the new Sporting Fingal players and the plans Liam Buckley and his men have are supposedly "out of this World" , something never seen in Ireland before and my contact says WHEN they get into the League they will shock a lot of people and Clubs with their professional spproach and way of doing business.....interesting times....:ball:

[dcfcsteve]

Got talking to one of the new Sporting Fingal players and the plans Liam Buckley and his men have are supposedly "out of this World" , something never seen in Ireland before and my contact says WHEN they get into the League they will shock a lot of people and Clubs with their professional spproach and way of doing business.....interesting times....:ball:

In fairness - how many clubs and people have said the same thing over the years, and all have come to nought !

Just look at Wexford Youths - joined the league boasting that they would be run completely different and would actually "show other clubs the way".

Twelve months later they're struggling with debt and in danger of going bang.

I don't see anything different with regards Sporting Fingers.

Plus ca change....

[pineapple stu]

You obviously haven't been following me that closely on here, as I've happily held my hands up on a number of occassions ... :)
:D


I guess that as a UCD fan you just have to look for a victory in anything.... :D
No need when we can beat youz twice a season.

Ahhh...remember football?


Got talking to one of the new Sporting Fingal players and the plans Liam Buckley and his men have are supposedly "out of this World" , something never seen in Ireland before
Eh, no. Something never seen in Ireland since Dublin City FC.

[drummerboy]

Heard the moneyman behind Sporting Fingal is a developer named Gannon, the guy who completed the deal with Malahide for their former ground.

[oldyouth]

dfscsteve, where the flippin' heck did you hear that the Youths were struggling. The only problem we have is that the 'officials' are slowing down what is our onward march to a top rated community (I didn't say title winning) based club. Facts please????????

[monutdfc]

Listening to Jim Rhattigan on Newtalk last night there's no might about it - Kilkenny will not be in First Division next season, and possibly not in the A league. He said there would be a press release at some stage today.

[Bluebeard]

Heard that there is an article in the IT today, saying as much - anyone able to confirm, or put it up? I'm in the wrong country to investigate this personally, I'm afraid.

[L37Ultra]

Heres a link from the Irish Independent. Small bit about Killkenny in the last paragraph. Looks like they wont even be in the A League. Sad day :(

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/mathews-confirms-new-base-progress-1268402.html

[dcfcsteve]

No need when we can beat youz twice a season.

Ahhh...remember football?



Clearly not. So refresh my memory by reminding me where we finished in the league last season, and where you did.......?

Or how you fared in your last Cup Final......?

:)

[dcfcsteve]

dfscsteve, where the flippin' heck did you hear that the Youths were struggling. The only problem we have is that the 'officials' are slowing down what is our onward march to a top rated community (I didn't say title winning) based club. Facts please????????

My mistake OY - mixing yees up with Limerick 37 here.

It's merely in footballing terms where Youth's are struggling.

[oldyouth]

Fair enough dcfcsteve. However, in the footballing sense I would prefer the word learning rather than struggling