Arsenal

[sligo23]

:confused: Where did I mention anything about Fabregas?

Anyway there must be something in the water down in Limerick. Carrick is class, in my opinion better than Gerrard and Lampard. He is not the typical 'English midfielder' as he his technique and vision are the main parts of his game. He can also control a game from midfield. He is one of those players who always appears to have that extra second on the ball, which is down to his class.

come on now you have to be taken the ****
carrick better than gerrard and lampard:eek:
gerrard or lampard injured would be beter than him
all he can do is pass it to scholes, thats it, hes a joke.

[L37Ultra]

:confused: Where did I mention anything about Fabregas?

Anyway there must be something in the water down in Limerick. Carrick is class, in my opinion better than Gerrard and Lampard. He is not the typical 'English midfielder' as he his technique and vision are the main parts of his game. He can also control a game from midfield. He is one of those players who always appears to have that extra second on the ball, which is down to his class.


I never said you mentioned anything about Fabregas but we were talking about the fact that Aresnal have a mostly all foregin team and my point was that why would Wenger buy English players when the players abroad are much cheaper and of a higher quality. And come off it, Carrick better than Lampard and Gerrard. In all fairness I know you said that to get your point across but you honestly cant think that. I know their different types of players but I know who id prefer to be in my team. Carricks apperances for England against those of Gerrards and Lampards speak for itself!! And on the something in the water comment, I think your mistaking Limerick for Galway :D

[Stuttgart88]

I read a quote from Wenger recently saying that young continental footballers have better technque and more footballing intelligence than their English peers.

[shanman2]

I never said you mentioned anything about Fabregas but we were talking about the fact that Aresnal have a mostly all foregin team and my point was that why would Wenger buy English players when the players abroad are much cheaper and of a higher quality. And come off it, Carrick better than Lampard and Gerrard. In all fairness I know you said that to get your point across but you honestly cant think that. I know their different types of players but I know who id prefer to be in my team. Carricks apperances for England against those of Gerrards and Lampards speak for itself!! And on the something in the water comment, I think your mistaking Limerick for Galway :D

No England fan who doesn't support Chelsea would want Lampard in the team. He is imo not a good enough all rounder. Gerrard is class but I still wonder what his best position is. Wenger doesn't like English players David Bentley is a super midfielder and Wenger got ride of him because he liked to have a laugh. Pennant should have been kept at the club, after his mum died he had a rough time so what did Wenger do other than turf him out on his ear. Wenger wants foreigners because they are less trouble.

[Stuttgart88]

Pennant should have been kept at the club, after his mum died he had a rough time so what did Wenger do other than turf him out on his ear. Wenger wants foreigners because they are less trouble.Hmmm, yes. Pennant of course has been a resounding success at Liverpool.

He was given every chance at Arsenal and he blew it.

[cheifo]

The likes of Bentley,Stokes,Muamba,Hoyte and Sidwell came through the ranks at Arsenal so itsnot like they have'nt been bringing players through.If they are not good enough to make it at first team level so be it.It would be foolish to play them just for the sake of it.When Man U won the champions league in 99 there was only four English players in the team.The Premiership would be poorer without the likes of Fabregas and Toure.Its only if clubs are importing inferior talent there is an issue.

[shanman2]

The likes of Bentley,Stokes,Muamba,Hoyte and Sidwell came through the ranks at Arsenal so itsnot like they have'nt been bringing players through.If they are not good enough to make it at first team level so be it.It would be foolish to play them just for the sake of it.When Man U won the champions league in 99 there was only four English players in the team.The Premiership would be poorer without the likes of Fabregas and Toure.Its only if clubs are importing inferior talent there is an issue.

9/18 in 99 compared (not including Paul Scholes who would have started) to 2/18 for arsenal 2006 vs barca. :eek:

[Stuttgart88]

You're really hung up on this aspect aren't you? Why is it relevant?

[shanman2]

You're really hung up on this aspect aren't you? Why is it relevant?

I personally have always loved teams who win trophies using home grown players. AC Milan, Ajax, United, Barcelona, Marseille(although later relieved of the trophy) Porto, Bayern Munchen etc are all clubs you have to admire greatly. Home grown talent for me is the most important thing about a club is there any better feeling than seeing the young lad who signed for a club as a 12 year old go on to become a legend at a club. Thats what football is about after all not bringing half of Clairefontaine and Africa to a club in search of the holy grail.....

[cheifo]

In that case the ideal situation would be Rooney lining out for his boyhood club Everton not athe club most scousers grow up hating who paid millions for him.What about East End London boy Rio(35 million) Geordie Carrick (18 million)Tevez(not sure what his franchise fee is this year),Ronaldo(12 million)Nani&Anderson(40 million combined?)
Vidic,Evra,Saha,Hargreaves(25 million) and of course there was the whole Veron debacle.Yes there was the UTD golden gerneration which came through maybe ten years ago but Arsenal had keown,Adams,Parlour,Cole etc.
Man U are no Ajax they are the biggest buyers of ready made talent after Chelsea.I prefer Wengers method of identifying raw talent and developing them into great players.Whether they are English or not is irrelevant.

[see's it]

homegrown talent is a thing of the past with the big clubs and not just in england the next best thing is buying youngsters at 15/16 make trying to make them into players
just on utd i think neville and scholes are the only homegrown players left also they havent brought a player through since them aswell

[shanman2]

homegrown talent is a thing of the past with the big clubs and not just in england the next best thing is buying youngsters at 15/16 make trying to make them into players
just on utd i think neville and scholes are the only homegrown players left also they havent brought a player through since them aswell

If you want to be really technical- OShea, Fletcher, Pique, Gibson(1 of only 4 irish players registered to play champions league), Evans X2, Martin, Shawcross, Cathcart, Brandy and Simpson to name but a few.

[cheifo]

If you want to be really technical- OShea, Fletcher, Pique, Gibson(1 of only 4 irish players registered to play champions league), Evans X2, Martin, Shawcross, Cathcart, Brandy and Simpson to name but a few.

That list represents FIVE different national teams....well if you want to be really technical.;)

[Stuttgart88]

I personally have always loved teams who win trophies using home grown players. AC Milan, Ajax, United, Barcelona, Marseille(although later relieved of the trophy) Porto, Bayern Munchen etc are all clubs you have to admire greatly. Home grown talent for me is the most important thing about a club is there any better feeling than seeing the young lad who signed for a club as a 12 year old go on to become a legend at a club. Thats what football is about after all not bringing half of Clairefontaine and Africa to a club in search of the holy grail.....But apart from the extraordinary success of the 1992 youth team vintage has United, or any other team, been a shining beacon in this regard since then?

Liverpool have been successful in the youth cup recently yet promote nobody. Ipswich won the youth cup (with 5-6 Irish on board too) 2 years ago and a good portion of this team is still involved. Where? In the Championship. Why? Because the bar has been set so high in the Premiership (Chelsea as good as won 8 or 9 games out of every ten) that taking a chance on youth was almost guaraneed to set you off the pace.

[Stuttgart88]

How is Pique any different to the Arsenal players you refer to? Or Anderson or nanni or whoever?

O'Shea and Fletcher are hardly fans' favourites are they? Useful sqaud fillers but nothing else.

[Roadend]

I personally have always loved teams who win trophies using home grown players. AC Milan, Ajax, United, Barcelona, Marseille(although later relieved of the trophy) Porto, Bayern Munchen etc are all clubs you have to admire greatly. Home grown talent for me is the most important thing about a club


Peter Schmeichel
Gary Neville
Jaap Stam
Ronny Johnsen
Denis Irwin
Ryan Giggs
Nicky Butt
David Beckham
Jesper Blomqvist
Andy Cole
Dwight Yorke

The side was packed with homegrown talent alright.

Barca had 3 spanish players in the 2006 winning side, Bayern had 4 German starters in '01

[Macy]

4 that had been with United from school boys, would've been 5 if it wasn't for the Scholes suspension. 4 out of those 5 are from Manchester/ Salford.

Wenger is a great talent spotter. It'd be wrong to suggest he's genuinely bringing through players when he's buying them in at 16/17 when the real technical development has been done. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just different from what he's credited for.

As for overall, the statistics speak for themselves. Credit to Wenger for being the only one that's been able to last the pace and keep bringing teams to challenge United. Everyone else has been couple of seasons wonder.

btw It's not surprising that people with no geographic connection to the team they support write off the benefits of homegrown players. I know at United there's always a special place with the fans for the hometown players. It's obvious enough that someone Dublin, Galway wherever isn't going to "get" that.

btw2 I noticed a couple of references to Kidd's youth team as if it was nothing to do with Ferguson. That just shows a total lack of knowledge as to how Ferguson totally rebuilt the youth structure of United when he took over. He put in place the right people that made it a success. Also plenty of others (other than Fergie or Kidd) working in the background that brought through those players.

[shanman2]

4 that had been with United from school boys, would've been 5 if it wasn't for the Scholes suspension. 4 out of those 5 are from Manchester/ Salford.

Wenger is a great talent spotter. It'd be wrong to suggest he's genuinely bringing through players when he's buying them in at 16/17 when the real technical development has been done. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's just different from what he's credited for.

As for overall, the statistics speak for themselves. Credit to Wenger for being the only one that's been able to last the pace and keep bringing teams to challenge United. Everyone else has been couple of seasons wonder.

btw It's not surprising that people with no geographic connection to the team they support write off the benefits of homegrown players. I know at United there's always a special place with the fans for the hometown players. It's obvious enough that someone Dublin, Galway wherever isn't going to "get" that.

btw2 I noticed a couple of references to Kidd's youth team as if it was nothing to do with Ferguson. That just shows a total lack of knowledge as to how Ferguson totally rebuilt the youth structure of United when he took over. He put in place the right people that made it a success. Also plenty of others (other than Fergie or Kidd) working in the background that brought through those players.

Thats the most sensible post yet. 15 of Uniteds squad have "no previous club" beside their names as oppossed to 7 of Arsenals. Ferguson love him or hate him. Set up one the most productive youth systems the world has ever seen or will ever see!! Wenger has a great footballing side yet again but it aint english! it plays in the premier league thats about it...

[see's it]

Thats the most sensible post yet. 15 of Uniteds squad have "no previous club" beside their names as oppossed to 7 of Arsenals. Ferguson love him or hate him. Set up one the most productive youth systems the world has ever seen or will ever see!! Wenger has a great footballing side yet again but it aint english! it plays in the premier league thats about it...

and utd fans wonder then why their hated

[osarusan]

Set up one the most productive youth systems the world has ever seen or will ever see!!

To be fair, this is ludicrous.

here are some the names you offer in support -

OShea, Fletcher, Pique, Gibson(1 of only 4 irish players registered to play champions league), Evans X2, Martin, Shawcross, Cathcart, Brandy and Simpson to name but a few.

Not exactly household names, most of them.


On Champions League night, you say -
I personally have always loved teams who win trophies using home grown players. AC Milan, Ajax, United, Barcelona, Marseille(although later relieved of the trophy) Porto, Bayern Munchen etc are all clubs you have to admire greatly.

But from the starting 11, only 4 were English, and Andy Cole came from a diffrerent club, plus Giggs. I

On the other hand, 10 of the Bayern starters were German. You must have been really rooting for them.

[shanman2]

[QUOTE=osarusan;819109]To be fair, this is ludicrous.


What is ludicrous about it?. The lads I named have been at the club since they were kids. What do you class as a good youth system?. Buying in players at 17/18 or signing them as 10/11 year olds. United have a history of building a great sides from youth set ups. Arsenal dont!!
I dont support Man Utd I just think that the Arsenal fans are talking shti bout Wenger and the "youth system" because it isn't Wenger has the best Scouting system in the world. Lets pray the qouta on foreigners is passed then Wenger will shti a brick...

[John83]

...On the other hand, 10 of the Bayern starters were German. You must have been really rooting for them.
I don't want to get into this debate, but Bayern have a history of sucking all of the domestic talent into their clutches. For example, Deisler and Ballach were given large fees to sign pre-contracts 18 months before their contracts expired, so their clubs earned no fees for them. The practice was made illegal shortly afterwards - you can't sign a pre-contract that far ahead now. There's a reason the Bundesliga is often a one team league.

[osarusan]

I don't want to get into this debate, but Bayern have a history of sucking all of the domestic talent into their clutches. For example, Deisler and Ballach were given large fees to sign pre-contracts 18 months before their contracts expired, so their clubs earned no fees for them. The practice was made illegal shortly afterwards - you can't sign a pre-contract that far ahead now. There's a reason the Bundesliga is often a one team league.

I'm not commenting on their youth policy (although I had no idea about what you've just posted, it is interesting), just pointing out that they were all from the country their club plays in.

[BrayUnknowns]

In that case the ideal situation would be Rooney lining out for his boyhood club Everton not athe club most scousers grow up hating who paid millions for him.What about East End London boy Rio(35 million) Geordie Carrick (18 million)Tevez(not sure what his franchise fee is this year),Ronaldo(12 million)Nani&Anderson(40 million combined?)
Vidic,Evra,Saha,Hargreaves(25 million) and of course there was the whole Veron debacle.Yes there was the UTD golden gerneration which came through maybe ten years ago but Arsenal had keown,Adams,Parlour,Cole etc.
Man U are no Ajax they are the biggest buyers of ready made talent after Chelsea.I prefer Wengers method of identifying raw talent and developing them into great players.Whether they are English or not is irrelevant.

Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Nani, Anderson, Vidic, Evra etc... None were ready made world class players when signing for united in fairness - all young ldas with raw talents which SFA thought he could turn into world class players. Vidic would be one of the best examples IMO, no one knew of him when he signed and everyone thought SFA had really lost the plot for real, after a tough start has now turned into one of the best centre halfs in the EPL.

In saying that there is no doubting that Wengers scouts are absolutely superb !

[Steve Bruce]

Linfield are the most successful team in the world and we ahve a team full of home grown talent :D

[gustavo]

Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez, Nani, Anderson, Vidic, Evra etc... None were ready made world class players when signing for united in fairness - all young ldas with raw talents which SFA thought he could turn into world class players. Vidic would be one of the best examples IMO, no one knew of him when he signed and everyone thought SFA had really lost the plot for real, after a tough start has now turned into one of the best centre halfs in the EPL.

In saying that there is no doubting that Wengers scouts are absolutely superb !
in Rooneys and Tevezs case especially , it was hardly a shot in the dark when he was going to sign them , at the time of both signings most of the top teams in the world would have liked to have them both . Evra had already played in a Champions League final and was in the French squad before he had signed him so again hardly a raw young fella

[osarusan]

Nani, Anderson,

I'd agree with what Gustavo said and add that the above two


not ready made world class players when signing for united in fairness
are still not world class players by any means.

[shanman2]

in Rooneys and Tevezs case especially , it was hardly a shot in the dark when he was going to sign them , at the time of both signings most of the top teams in the world would have liked to have them both . Evra had already played in a Champions League final and was in the French squad before he had signed him so again hardly a raw young fella

Carlos Tevez got in massive trouble with Corinthians when he was younger for wearing a Man Utd jersey he was spotted long before West Ham knew who he was. Remember back to the first 3 or 4 games Evra played he was ridiculed by the media after the Man City match in particular. He disappeared for 3/4 months and came back twice the player, same applied to Vidic. United knew well what they were doing signing them. Have you finally accepted what Im saying Osarusan bout Arsenal.

[osarusan]

Have you finally accepted what Im saying Osarusan bout Arsenal.

If you were more careful, you'd have noticed that nowhere on this thread have I said Wenger has a good youth policy. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't have one.

However you aren't more careful, so you didn't notice.

If you want to argue that Wenger's youth policy is poor, there are better ways to do it than to exaggerate the success of Man United's youth policy.

[osarusan]

Carlos Tevez got in massive trouble with Corinthians when he was younger for wearing a Man Utd jersey he was spotted long before West Ham knew who he was.
So fu*king what. Surely, surely, surely, you wouldn't be so silly as to offer this as evidence of Man. United's youth policy. Tevez was already world famous when Man. United signed him.

[shanman2]

So fu*king what. Surely, surely, surely, you wouldn't be so silly as to offer this as evidence of Man. United's youth policy. Tevez was already world famous when Man. United signed him.

Im not offering it as evidence but factual relation that Manchester United had sent him jerseys with his name on the back long before he was famous and before you, I would suggest, knew who Tevez was!!! So stop getting mad and trying to smart!!!:mad:
I put my case forward for Manchester Uniteds youth policy. History would suggest that my comments on the youth system are spot on.

[osarusan]

Im not offering it as evidence but factual relation that Manchester United had sent him jerseys with his name on the back long before he was famous and before you, I would suggest, knew who Tevez was!!! So stop getting mad and trying to smart!!!:mad:

Tell me what relevance this has to Arsenal's youth policy, or Man. United's. for that matter.

This is an example of scouting, nothing more.

[Roadend]

Tapping up I'd say.

[shanman2]

Tapping up I'd say.

They would have had to scout him to know who he was! wouldnt they?

[osarusan]

shanman, what is the point you are trying to make on this thread?

That Aresenal's youth policy is poor?

That Man United's policy is excellent?

That Man United's scouting system is better?

[jebus]

They would have had to scout him to know who he was! wouldnt they?

Maybe Ferguson could have, you know, actually signed him on the cheap back in the days of Tevez's youth if he were such a great scoutmaster then? Would have saved the Old Trafford Theme Park a few bob on the cost of printing his name on a United shirt too

[Poor Student]

Linfield are the most successful team in the world

Nonsense, even Glentoran have more European trophies than you.;)

[Lim till i die]

First Scott Brown, now Carrick. If you're being serious you're clueless when it comes to football.

I'll be proven right yet about Scott Brown

By the high standards by which he should be measured Carrick is poor, wouldn't get within as asses roar of the starting lineup at any of the other "Big Four" clubs

[shanman2]

I'll be proven right yet about Scott Brown

By the high standards by which he should be measured Carrick is poor, wouldn't get within as asses roar of the starting lineup at any of the other "Big Four" clubs

Scott Brown is a class act, he was wanted by Liverpool and Manchester United. He must have something about him judging by his performances for Scotland and the Champions league so far!.

Carrick would be in the Arsenal side instead of Flamini!
Liverpool side instead of Alonso!
He would struggle at Chelsea because of the way the play.

[Roadend]

Carrick would be in the Arsenal side instead of Flamini!
Liverpool side instead of Alonso!
.

Maybe Flamini but not alonso, Carrick isn't half the passer Alonso is :rolleyes:

[shanman2]

Maybe Flamini but not alonso, Carrick isn't half the passer Alonso is :rolleyes:

Id argue that the strongest part of Carricks game! :eek:

[Stuttgart88]

Both are elegant passing midfielders. I think Alonso is a delight to watch and a better passer than Carrick. Carrick has a better shot. Personally I'd go with Alonso, I think he's a cut above Carrick and is more two-footed too.

[Roadend]

. Carrick has a better shot.
Wouldn't agree with that given that Alonso has more goals since he's been in the EPL, than Carrick.

[jebus]

Lord God, anyone who thinks Carrick is a better player than Alonso is talking, or at least thinking, nonsense, even with Alonso's injury problems he is still a far better player then the latest over-rated Englishman ever will be

[shanman2]

Lord God, anyone who thinks Carrick is a better player than Alonso is talking, or at least thinking, nonsense, even with Alonso's injury problems he is still a far better player then the latest over-rated Englishman ever will be

Again it just comes down to personal opinion, Carrick is a far better all rounder than alonso who cant tackle wont head the ball and doesnt cover very well. if he did benitez wouldnt of had to play mascherano or sissoko to help cover the defence.:ball:

[jebus]

Again it just comes down to personal opinion, Carrick is a far better all rounder than alonso who cant tackle wont head the ball and doesnt cover very well. if he did benitez wouldnt of had to play mascherano or sissoko to help cover the defence.:ball:

Not really valid considering you're a Man U fan, in the same way I don't take Liverpool fans opinions of their players on board. Basically only neutrals should ever be allowed talk about the Big 4 :p

[Roadend]

Again it just comes down to personal opinion, Carrick is a far better all rounder than alonso who cant tackle wont head the ball and doesnt cover very well. if he did benitez wouldnt of had to play mascherano or sissoko to help cover the defence.:ball:

:D :D: And to think you're actually serious. I'll let you in on a little secret, Alonso has been out with a broken metatarsal which he reaggrivated when he came back early and went straight into the first team forcing a yet longer stretch out of action.

[shanman2]

Not really valid considering you're a Man U fan, in the same way I don't take Liverpool fans opinions of their players on board. Basically only neutrals should ever be allowed talk about the Big 4 :p

Id tell you who I support but you would probably but you nut laughing at me!!

[shanman2]

:D :D: And to think you're actually serious. I'll let you in on a little secret, Alonso has been out with a broken metatarsal which he reaggrivated when he came back early and went straight into the first team forcing a yet longer stretch out of action.


I don't care how long he is out injured just means carrick is not as injury prone which is another plus. Rafa still plays a defensive midfielder behind him!

[Roadend]

You're wrong, AGAIN. Lets just drop it, for your sake.