View Full Version : Gavin Defends Setanta Decision
Fran Gavin defends the decision to allow the D1 winners into the Setanta Cup playoff and says it should remain for next year.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/chief-gavin-stands-over-setanta-cup-decision-1209053.html
Dodge
01/11/2007, 10:21 AM
Fran Gavin defends the decision to allow the D1 winners into the Setanta Cup playoff and says it should remain for next year.
And I agree.
Just a warnign for people about to post on this thread. DO NOT let it descend into another harps v Derry discussion. Loads of them about if you want to post there...
Jerry The Saint
01/11/2007, 10:50 AM
Fran Gavin defends the decision to allow the D1 winners into the Setanta Cup playoff and says it should remain for next year.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/chief-gavin-stands-over-setanta-cup-decision-1209053.html
Division 1 clubs are already allowed into the League Cup so I don't see why they should be given two chances to qualify through this route.
bigmac
01/11/2007, 10:52 AM
I think it's a good idea as well. It makes the Fisrt Division a little bit more interesting and gives the promoted teeam a chance to inject some money into the coffers. No surprise that the teams complaining are those who may miss out on the Setanta by one place.
Stato
01/11/2007, 10:54 AM
It should at least be given a year or two to see how it works. For a start the Division 1 winners still have to beat the League Cup winners so, arguably, if they manage to do that they are a better side than the League Cup winners and deserve their place.
If, however, we end up with a situation where the Div 1 champions lose all 6 games by a cricket score it'll need to be reviewed. In saying that, Pats managed to put 13 goals past Portadown and Dungannon in four games and Cork managed something similar.
Stato
01/11/2007, 10:57 AM
Division 1 clubs are already allowed into the League Cup so I don't see why they should be given two chances to qualify through this route.
Premier clubs had four opportunities to qualify (League x 2, FAI Cup and League Cup). First division clubs only ever had two opportunities (FAI Cup and League Cup) so I don't see a problem with giving them a third shot.
endabob1
01/11/2007, 11:01 AM
Surely they have to earn the extra shot by getting themselves promotted, it sounds like a terrible idea to me, rewarding mediocrity.
btid1
01/11/2007, 11:11 AM
Surely they have to earn the extra shot by getting themselves promotted, it sounds like a terrible idea to me, rewarding mediocrity.
Agreed.
You dont see this happening in any other country.Do Liverpool or Arsenal have to play off against the Championship winners for their Champions League place?
If you want to qualify for major tournaments win a trophy or be playing at the highest level.Anything other than that is making the competition a joke!!
Dodge
01/11/2007, 11:14 AM
Surely they have to earn the extra shot by getting themselves promotted, it sounds like a terrible idea to me, rewarding mediocrity.
As opposed to the league cup?
All comparisons to the European places in other countries are ridiculous too. Can't see how anyone would think having Harps or Cobh in the Setanta Cup ahead of Derry is a bad thing.
btid1
01/11/2007, 11:23 AM
As opposed to the league cup?
Well any hopes they had of rescuing the credibility of the competition is surely gone now!
Why dont Premier teams just drop to the first div win that and get Setanta football that way.Im sure the likes of UCD and Bohs would win the first div handy enough but wont get Setanta cup football in their current position.
Dodge
01/11/2007, 11:31 AM
Why dont Premier teams just drop to the first div win that and get Setanta football that way.Im sure the likes of UCD and Bohs would win the first div handy enough but wont get Setanta cup football in their current position.
Rightly so. How is awarding the first division winners a crack at the league cup winners branded as awarding mediocrity but awarding it to possible 3rd or 4th place finishers not?
Lionel Ritchie
01/11/2007, 11:42 AM
I support a First division club and, while I can see the logic of trying to spread the wealth -what there is of it, I think this initiative lacks natural justice.
I can see at least as compelling a case for whoever tops a "fair play" league getting a bite of the cherry too.
Dodge
01/11/2007, 11:53 AM
I can see at least as compelling a case for whoever tops a "fair play" league getting a bite of the cherry too.
But they already get rewarded with the chance* of uefa cup
OneRedArmy
01/11/2007, 12:39 PM
Can't see how anyone would think having Harps or Cobh in the Setanta Cup ahead of Derry is a bad thing.Whats that got to do with it :confused:
Dodge
01/11/2007, 12:48 PM
Whats that got to do with it :confused:
Isn't that the whole argument? I was using Derry as an example (being this years League Cup winners) and Harps/Cobh for similar reasons.
OneRedArmy
01/11/2007, 12:54 PM
Isn't that the whole argument? I was using Derry as an example (being this years League Cup winners) and Harps/Cobh for similar reasons.A) I thought per your warning above you didn't want it to descend into an argument about the two likely teams in the playoff; and
B) if the system is a farce, which it is because of the reasons stated above, then it doesn't matter who gets through.
Sonic
01/11/2007, 12:56 PM
Its just a case of Rico and sean connor being a pair of sour auld w@nkers thats all. I think it is brilliant to give the first division champions a fair chance in the setanta.
niallsparky
01/11/2007, 1:14 PM
Its just a case of Rico and sean connor being a pair of sour auld w@nkers thats all. I think it is brilliant to give the first division champions a fair chance in the setanta.
Why, because you have a good chance of getting into the playoff spot next season? ;)
A) I thought per your warning above you didn't want it to descend into an argument about the two likely teams in the playoff;
Fair enough. Using other teams "Can't see how anyone would think having Athlone in the Setanta Cup ahead of Bohs is a bad thing"
B) if the system is a farce, which it is because of the reasons stated above, then it doesn't matter who gets through.
I disagree about it being a farce and have yet to see any credible reason why people think it is. Procedure clearly laid down before this season, and now before next season. Opens up Setanta Cup qualification for numerous clubs and at the very least provides extra income for the team that wins the first division. Team can win the league cup by playing 4 games (all at home possibly). I fail to see how the winners feel they're being cheated out of anything
Its just a case of Rico and sean connor being a pair of sour auld w@nkers thats all. I think it is brilliant to give the first division champions a fair chance in the setanta.
They got their fair chance through the League Cup the first time.If I was a Derry fan and they lost the playoff I would feel very hard done by.
Still no answer from Dodge as to an example of another country in which this is done.Simple reason because it is not done anywhere else.
How apt the old adage is now - Only in Ireland!!!!
harps1954
01/11/2007, 1:27 PM
You have to remember that the First Division winners will be a Premier Division club by the time the Setanta Cup comes around. A First Division club could have won the League Cup.
Also, there is a good chance that a First Division club will be representing the eircom League in both the Setanta Cup and the UEFA Cup if Longford win the FAI Cup. So, if Longford are relegated and win the FAI Cup, do people then think that they shouldn't be in the Setanta or UEFA Cup.
Remember, the First Division Champions only get a shot at playing in the Setanta. They still have to get by the Premier club. It's up to Derry to prove that they deserve it more than Harps or Cobh. If Harps or Cobh beat Derry, then they deserve to be in the Setanta. Same way as if Longford beat Cork, they deserve to be in the both cups next season.
Still no answer from Dodge as to an example of another country in which this is done.Simple reason because it is not done anywhere else.
The Setanta Cup only applies to one other country!? Have you seen the Dutch european places play offs? Do you think out little thing compares to their monstrosity? The only country that admits the league cup winners into europe is England. Are they wrong?
Why do we have to copy other leagues?
In all fairness- not too many countries have an equivalent to the Setanta Cup.
My feeling is that the current setup adds interest to the first division and can help launch a new club towards competitive status in the premier for the following season. This will be even more important when the ten team league returns. If the league cup winners lose their place it'll be because they can't beat the first division champions- so slap it right up them.
TheBoss
01/11/2007, 1:30 PM
I think FAI are trying to give the teams in North a chance to do well if there was a first division in the competition, they are hoping that Derry Lose and the winner of D1 goes through to give the Northern Teams a chance.
Also, what if Derry and Bohs were already in the Setanta Cup via different ways, would the first division team go in automatically ?
harps1954
01/11/2007, 1:31 PM
Still no answer from Dodge as to an example of another country in which this is done.Simple reason because it is not done anywhere else.
What other countries provides a competition like the Setanta Cup.
I think in that case the 3rd placed team in the league would play the D1 winners in the playoff.
bigmac
01/11/2007, 1:37 PM
What if the First Division winners also win the League Cup?
Schumi
01/11/2007, 1:38 PM
I think in that case the 3rd placed team in the league would play the D1 winners in the playoff.
But what if they're in the cup final. :eek: :D
don ramo
01/11/2007, 1:38 PM
i think its a very good idea sure look at shamrock rovers they would have had a good crack at it this year of they were in it, i dont see how a first divison team wouls make the competition worse, fair enought a prem team would be better prepared fro a good assault on it, but the league cup alone shouldnt give entry, one cup is enough for one league, never understood the second cup competition anyways, if longford win the FAI cup a first division team could possibly be in it anyway, instead of the promoted first divsion club, if we finnish 9 point clear of dundalk we should go up due to finnishing so far ahead of them and they didnt beat us at all this year, but yet we still must play them even though we proved were better than them,
some people think its unfair some dont, personal opinions
DmanDmythDledge
01/11/2007, 1:39 PM
Premier clubs had four opportunities to qualify (League x 2, FAI Cup and League Cup). First division clubs only ever had two opportunities (FAI Cup and League Cup) so I don't see a problem with giving them a third shot.
There's a very obvious reason why Premier Division teams have more chances...
Rightly so. How is awarding the first division winners a crack at the league cup winners branded as awarding mediocrity but awarding it to possible 3rd or 4th place finishers not?
Are you actually comparing winning the First Division to coming 3rd/4th in the Premier? That's one of the most ridiculous comments I've read in a long time.
It's up to Derry to prove that they deserve it more than Harps or Cobh. If Harps or Cobh beat Derry, then they deserve to be in the Setanta.
Derry have proved it by winning the League Cup, which is more difficult than winning the First Division.
Also, there is a good chance that a First Division club will be representing the eircom League in both the Setanta Cup and the UEFA Cup if Longford win the FAI Cup. So, if Longford are relegated and win the FAI Cup, do people then think that they shouldn't be in the Setanta or UEFA Cup.
If Longford win the cup then they will deserve Setanta football no matter what league they are in because they won the cup!
They still have to get by the Premier club. It's up to Derry to prove that they deserve it more than Harps or Cobh.
They do deserve it more because they won something!
Why dont we just abandon the idea of having two leagues then and just put them all into one because there seems to be no reward for being in the Premier just huge costs!!
TheBoss
01/11/2007, 1:48 PM
harps1954,
Royal League for Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.
Baltic League for Teams from Latvia and Estonia.
There is also another one, For countries that used to be part of the Soviet Union
Are you actually comparing winning the First Division to coming 3rd/4th in the Premier?
No, I was replying to the idea that winning the first is mediocre but finishing 4th in premier isn't. Do you think finishing fourth in premier is more than mediocre? Both are mediocre "achievements"
They do deserve it more because they won something!
Both teams will have won something :p
Réiteoir
01/11/2007, 1:53 PM
harps1954,
Royal League for Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland.
Baltic League for Teams from Latvia and Estonia.
There is also another one, For countries that used to be part of the Soviet Union
The Finns don't compete in the Royal League - and the Norwegians have just pulled out of the whole thing - I wouldn't expect it to go ahead this winter - as it's been a farce of a competition so far (hardly anyone went to watch the games)
The CIS Cup is the one for the former Soviet States
Schumi
01/11/2007, 1:54 PM
Do you think finishing fourth in premier is more than mediocre? Both are mediocre "achievements"It's good for us. :o
I wouldn't expect it to go ahead this winter - as it's been a farce of a competition so far (hardly anyone went to watch the games)
Setanta Cup in 3 seasons time!!
Both teams will have won something :p
Hard for any of the Premier teams to win the prize Harps/Cobh will win but both could have won the league cup.
osarusan
01/11/2007, 2:20 PM
Hard for any of the Premier teams to win the prize Harps/Cobh will win but both could have won the league cup.
Would you be happy with a rule that says Bohs are in the tournament every season no matter what? Would that keep you happy?
Give the idea a chance before you tear it apart.
Would you be happy with a rule that says Bohs are in the tournament every season no matter what?
Eh, no, that's the St Pats rule. They can't open it up to just anyone.:p
harps1954
01/11/2007, 2:44 PM
But why all the complaints NOW? Why wasn't this flagged before any club signed up to the new league and changed then? Why wasn't Rico or Connor complaining about this a year ago when they knew it was coming? It's a bit like Dundalk last year - they complained after the event, even though they had signed up to something. Or is it a case that club's just signed up to the new FAI run league without bothering to check what they signed up for?
Clubs knew long before the start of the season what they were signing up for and that winning the League Cup didn't give automatic qualification into the Setanta Cup. I still don't know what Rico and Connor are complaining about. They haven't won the League Cup anyhow, so it doesn't involve them. Even if there was no play-off with the First Division champions, Derry would still have qualified for the Setanta Cup by winning the league cup and Bohs and Cork in 3rd and 4th place would still have had to be content with missing out.
I'd love to see Longford win the FAI Cup now, just to sicken Rico futher.
Would you be happy with a rule that says Bohs are in the tournament every season no matter what? Would that keep you happy?
Give the idea a chance before you tear it apart.
What are you talking about??
If you hadnt noticed Bohs are yet to make an appearance in the Setanta Cup.
This is a matter of fairness nothing to do with individual clubs.
Is this is turning into the Special Olympics where taking part matters more than winning....ie this lets give everyone a chance bullsh*t!!
<P>The problem is that Derry may have to play Cobh away if they win the league, when they have already beaten them on the way to winning the League Cup final. If there was a Play-Off then the league cup winners should have had Home advantage in the play-off, instead of a toss of the coin.</P>
Is this is turning into the Special Olympics where taking part matters more than winning....ie this lets give everyone a chance bullsh*t!!
Only team can win, so I fail to see your point.
particularly when the preceding line is
This is a matter of fairness
So is about giving everyone a chance or about fairness?:confused:
harps1954
01/11/2007, 3:00 PM
What are you talking about??
If you hadnt noticed Bohs are yet to make an appearance in the Setanta Cup.
This is a matter of fairness nothing to do with individual clubs.
Is this is turning into the Special Olympics where taking part matters more than winning....ie this lets give everyone a chance bullsh*t!!
Let's assume the League Cup winners did get automatic qualification into the Setanta Cup.
But Bohs didn't win the League Cup, so can't qualify through this route anyhow. They can't win the FAI Cup, so can't qualify through this route. They haven't won the League, so can't qualify through this route. So, unless they finish second, they won't qualify through this route either.
So, what is Sean Connor complaining about? If they had won the League Cup and then missed out in the play-off, maybe he could have complained. But why is he complaining if/when they didn't qualify through all four routes available to them?
Let's assume the League Cup winners did get automatic qualification into the Setanta Cup.
But Bohs didn't win the League Cup, so can't qualify through this route anyhow. They can't win the FAI Cup, so can't qualify through this route. They haven't won the League, so can't qualify through this route. So, unless they finish second, they won't qualify through this route either.
So, what is Sean Connor complaining about? If they had won the League Cup and then missed out in the play-off, maybe he could have complained. But why is he complaining if/when they didn't qualify through all four routes available to them?
Why do you insist on making this a Bohs issue?This is not a matter of how it effects Bohs I am saying that in the interests of the competition you would want the best teams in the league to represent the league and with all due respect to Harps/Cobh they wont be in that category.The alternative would be a team who went through a competition unbeaten (ie winners of a cup).
To reverse this then would you be discussing this if Harps werent in with a shout?
So is about giving everyone a chance or about fairness?:confused:
My point about fairness is that some teams are getting two cracks at qualifying for the one competition while others are only getting one!!
Every team in the league now has 3 ways of qualifying for the Setanta Cup.
Sounds fair to me
osarusan
01/11/2007, 3:11 PM
My point about fairness is that some teams are getting two cracks at qualifying for the one competition while others are only getting one!!
Doesn't the winner of the premier division qualify also? So no team has only 1 chance.
Doesn't the winner of the premier division qualify also? So no team has only 1 chance.
Which do you reckon is easier to win....first div or Premier?
Every team in the league now has 3 ways of qualifying for the Setanta Cup.
Sounds fair to me
Is it similar abroad (in properly run leagues) that first div sides can qualify from their league for an "exclusive" competition?
Cant wait to see if your tune changes if you get pipped for a Setanta spot!!
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