Gavin Defends Setanta Decision [Archive] - Page 2

Mr_T

01/11/2007, 3:26 PM

Derry have proved it by winning the League Cup, which is more difficult than winning the First Division.

Well then they won't have any trouble beating Harps/Cobh then will they?

There's nothing farcical about it. It bring much needed exposure to the first division winners as they prepare for the Premier. It creates interest generally due to the novelty factor, imagine the buzz from a Harps/Derry showdown and how good it will be for the profile of the EL.

And its decided on the field of play. If Derry or any other PRemier club, having won the league cup by winning 4 games can't beat HArps/Cobh or any other Div 1 club then they don't deserve the Setanta place. Fact.

If you are looking for comparisons for "fairness" BTW, look no further than the English Championship, where the team which finishes 6th can gain promotion to the Premier League (reputedly worth �60m) ahead of the team which finishes third. One of the reasons the Football league have playoffs is the interest they generate, even though inherenty they are not fair.

Some people round here can't see the wood for the trees. :rolleyes:

Mr_T

01/11/2007, 3:27 PM

Why do you insist on making this a Bohs issue?

HINT: BECAUSE YOUR MANAGER IS THE ONE CRYING ABOUT IT!!!

osarusan

01/11/2007, 3:29 PM

Which do you reckon is easier to win....first div or Premier?

Jesus man, you said they had only 1 crack at it, I'm pointing out you are wrong.

Sam_Heggy

01/11/2007, 3:31 PM

We complain about play-offs, we complain about the dates of games, we complain about summer football, attendances, winter football, tv coverage, setanta cup and what ever else isn't going our way.
FFS its the rule set out at the start of the season, what good is bitchin' all the time going to do?
If Derry are the better team they will beat either ourselves or Cobh and we will have no complaints.

I tell ya what, at the end of next season, we should set up a poll on here and decide who should be in the setanta cup, all sorted, the results will be sent to Delaney and democray will have prevailed.

btid1

01/11/2007, 3:32 PM

Is it similar abroad (in properly run leagues) that first div sides can qualify from their league for an "exclusive" competition?

My question remains!

If Derry are the better team they will beat either ourselves or Cobh and we will have no complaints.

Ah sure f*ck it just let the winners of the first div play Drogheda and if they beat them then they are the best team in the country and deserve the league trophy..........anything can happen in a once off!

It devalues the competition and thats what Connor AND Rico are trying to point out.

R�iteoir

01/11/2007, 3:43 PM

Ah sure f*ck it just let the winners of the first div play Drogheda and if they beat them then they are the best team in the country and deserve the league trophy..........anything can happen in a once off!

We can call them the "Super Champions" - and a nice big trophy three times the size of the new eircom Chalice.

Plus they get to decide who else they want in Europe with them the next year - the supporters of the Super Champions club can have a text vote to decide

Right - anyone got Fran Gavin's phone number - I feel we could be onto something here

Flexy

01/11/2007, 3:57 PM

[quote=Sam_Heggy;805061]We complain about play-offs, we complain about the dates of games, we complain about summer football, attendances, winter football, tv coverage, setanta cup and what ever else isn't going our way.
FFS its the rule set out at the start of the season, what good is bitchin' all the time going to do?
If Derry are the better team they will beat either ourselves or Cobh and we will have no complaints.
Then why not make the league cup winners get home advantage then, instead of having the possibilty of playing away from home, having won the cup. I dont care who we have to play, but dont like the thought of having to travel to Cork or Ballybofey as cup winners on a Monday night. Also will this match be live on Setanta.

Sam_Heggy

01/11/2007, 3:57 PM

Wonder how many Bohs fans would be on here complaining if they weren't knocked out of the FAI cup by Cork at the weekend?

btid1

01/11/2007, 4:30 PM

Wonder how many Bohs fans would be on here complaining if they weren't knocked out of the FAI cup by Cork at the weekend?

Another big conspiracy theory there Sam.

I have held this opinion for months ask anyone who speaks to me on a regular basis.I have also expressed this opinion on the Bohs MB for weeks.

dcfcsteve

01/11/2007, 4:35 PM

Can't see how anyone would think having Harps or Cobh in the Setanta Cup ahead of Derry is a bad thing.

Most First Division teams have very poor grounds and relatively little support. That's usually the reason why they're in the First Division in the first place - a relative lack of resources. Which almost always boils down to a fundamental lack of support.

Putting poorly supported sides with poor stadia into the Setanta would not help the competition, and would certainly not help our League's standing within it. Though no doubt the Dungannon Swifts of the world would be delighted, as they might finally have a chance of getting some results behind them.

dcfcsteve

01/11/2007, 4:39 PM

I think FAI are trying to give the teams in North a chance to do well if there was a first division in the competition, they are hoping that Derry Lose and the winner of D1 goes through to give the Northern Teams a chance.

Well that's stunning foresight by the FAI, considering the decision was taken c. 10 months ago to have this play-off. Though I guess they just assumed City would win the League Cup yet again..... :D

I seriously doubt the FAI give a feck about giving IL teams a chance. Why the hell would they ? :confused:

So no need for the conspiracy theory. It's simple - the First Division play-off idea was a sop to give the weaker clubs in the league a crumb to feast on to gain their support for the FAI-EL merger. Nothing more.

dcfcsteve

01/11/2007, 4:45 PM

Setanta Cup in 3 seasons time!!

A bit cynical there btid !

The EL fans have taken to the competition - there really is a buzz around qualifying for it.

The IL fans are less excited about it. Probably for a variety of reasons - such as the fact that the majority of their teams tend to struggle, and also because for IL supporters a trip to Drumahoe to play Institute feels like a struggle, so the prospect of Cobh or Cork terrifies them !

I would believe it more likely for Setanta to pull the plug on the copmpetition for their own reasons, rather than for the relative levels of support the games get.

Sam_Heggy

01/11/2007, 5:33 PM

Most First Division teams have very poor grounds and relatively little support. That's usually the reason why they're in the First Division in the first place - a relative lack of resources. Which almost always boils down to a fundamental lack of support.

Putting poorly supported sides with poor stadia into the Setanta would not help the competition, and would certainly not help our League's standing within it. Though no doubt the Dungannon Swifts of the world would be delighted, as they might finally have a chance of getting some results behind them.

Do you honestly think Harps are poorly supported?

dcfcsteve

01/11/2007, 5:41 PM

Do you honestly think Harps are poorly supported?

For 90+% of the seaosn - yes. Your fans only crawl out of the woodwork when they sniff the chance of winning something. Where were they all in April ? Or June ?? Or even most of the Summer ffs ??

Plus I said relatively. You certainly have less support than Derry, and if you qualified for Setanta would probably have the least support home and away of the 4 teams involved.

Anyone can magic up a crowd when you're in with a shout of a trophy. It's the rest of the season that shows what your support is really like.

R�iteoir

01/11/2007, 5:48 PM

Old Mad Tom has the definitive answer on the whole qualification thing:

The FAI change, yet again, the rules of Setanta Cup qualification. As of now, the League Cup winners, Derry, must enter a play-off with the winners of the First Division providing the winners of the First Division wear white shirts, ie Dundalk. If not, then the second-placed team in the League Cup, Bohemians qualify to play with the runners-up of the First Division, Cobh Ramblers, providing the weather isn’t wet that day. Should it rain, Cork Academicals will battle it out with EMFA in a song contest, but only if Cork City fields 15 players in a team, in which case Longford Town will give up their FAI Cup Final place and slug out a two-way tie with Kilkenny City, who do not qualify because they bring in less than 300 fans per week. If so, Carlisle United will take on Jason Byrne and if the moon is in Uranus, as it was for the four lads in Derry, then John Delaney will distance himself from all football and instigate a new fusbal tournament to be completed by the fourth harvest moon of the year. Though, if x + y and y is June 25th, then straws will be drawn. Simple!

Mr A

01/11/2007, 6:01 PM

Same old mantra from the less small clubs- everything must be weighted towards making the rich richer and widening the gap to the rest.

Sam_Heggy

01/11/2007, 6:43 PM

For 90+% of the seaosn - yes. Your fans only crawl out of the woodwork when they sniff the chance of winning something. Where were they all in April ? Or June ?? Or even most of the Summer ffs ??

Plus I said relatively. You certainly have less support than Derry, and if you qualified for Setanta would probably have the least support home and away of the 4 teams involved.

Anyone can magic up a crowd when you're in with a shout of a trophy. It's the rest of the season that shows what your support is really like.

As ive said before, you have only had your big numbers of late (ie. since ye won the cup and came close in the league) the exact same as us. Success always brings in larger crowds. If we were in the setanta cup, we would have large crowds, im pretty sure of that.

Now what was Dodge saying about Harps - Derry arguments :p

Lim till i die

01/11/2007, 7:20 PM

For 90+% of the seaosn - yes. Your fans only crawl out of the woodwork when they sniff the chance of winning something. Where were they all in April ? Or June ?? Or even most of the Summer ffs ??

Name me five Premier clubs that would have more support than Harps at their Setanta Cup games?

What do April and June have to do with the ability to draw out crowds for a one off occassion??

jebus

01/11/2007, 7:25 PM

Plus I said relatively. You certainly have less support than Derry, and if you qualified for Setanta would probably have the least support home and away of the 4 teams involved.

If we're talking about relativity than Derry are a big steaming pile of **** in comparison to hundreds of clubs around the world support wise. Why you could even say that they are so ****ing **** that **** is too nice a ****ing word for the pieces of ****. Relatively speaking of course :)

Student Mullet

01/11/2007, 7:33 PM

I think Harps should be let in because I prefer Harps to Derry.

Lim till i die

01/11/2007, 7:35 PM

I think Harps should be let in because I prefer Harps to Derry.

Finally, someone says what we've all been thinking :)

Stato

01/11/2007, 8:47 PM

If my memory serves me correctly when the Setanta Cup was first started it was specifically designed to give the three clubs entering in to the Champions League and UEFA Cup competitions that summer some extra competitive matches.

When they expanded it to four clubs last season the FAI decided to give the extra spot to the League Cup winners or, if the cup winners had gained entry by another method already, the third placed team in the Premier. If they want to experiment with other ways of allocating that fourth spot why not let them and see how it works out before we critisize it?

dcfcsteve

01/11/2007, 9:41 PM

If we're talking about relativity than Derry are a big steaming pile of **** in comparison to hundreds of clubs around the world support wise. Why you could even say that they are so ****ing **** that **** is too nice a ****ing word for the pieces of ****. Relatively speaking of course :)

How's that Tourettes of yours coming along Jebus....?

jebus

01/11/2007, 9:44 PM

How's that Tourettes of yours coming along Jebus....?

Obviously not all that ****ing well you ****face **** **** :p

dcfcsteve

01/11/2007, 9:47 PM

Name me five Premier clubs that would have more support than Harps at their Setanta Cup games?

Why 5 clubs - i was talking about the top 3 in the country (i.e. the Setanta teams there on league position) ? And why not wait until Harps make it there to see how many they take to the Oval on a cold Tuesday evening ? They couldn't sell-out their home allocation for their recent weekend derby Cup game against City, so what makes you think they'll decsend upon Belfats and other destinations in vast hordes ? :confused:

What do April and June have to do with the ability to draw out crowds for a one off occassion??

Everything. Because the Setanat is not a one-off. It's at least a 6-off, over a period of 2 months, includign some fairly unglamorous opposition and long journeys. Even more if you progress. So there is no point describing it as some sort of one-off cup final.

Dodge

01/11/2007, 9:57 PM

Cant wait to see if your tune changes if you get pipped for a Setanta spot!!

WTF?! How will it affect Pats? Get a grip man

Lim till i die

01/11/2007, 10:23 PM

Why 5 clubs - i was talking about the top 3 in the country

Actually you were talking about Harps' fairweather support as if 'twere an affliction Derry was immune to but anyhoo....

If they get into the Setanta, Harps will get bigger home gates than Drgheda for example.

And why not wait until Harps make it there to see how many they take to the Oval on a cold Tuesday evening ? They couldn't sell-out their home allocation for their recent weekend derby Cup game against City, so what makes you think they'll decsend upon Belfats and other destinations in vast hordes ?

Home games are the issue here steve

Outside of Derry there was no "vast hordes" ( :rolleyes: btw) descending on Belfast from the other clubs

Everything. Because the Setanat is not a one-off. It's at least a 6-off, over a period of 2 months, includign some fairly unglamorous opposition and long journeys.

You're kidding yourself if you think Harps wont pull in a crowd for home games against Linfield and Glentoran

After that who cares??

How many were at Cork v Dungannon Swifts for example??

Would their crowds be worse than the Northern teams crowds??

Even more if you progress.

And it's ludicrous to suggest they wouldn't draw a large crowd for a semi final/final.

So there is no point describing it as some sort of one-off cup final

You genuinely chose to take me literally there?? Really couldn't see what I was getting at?? Really?? :rolleyes:

fbtn

02/11/2007, 12:45 AM

They couldn't sell-out their home allocation for their recent weekend derby Cup game against City, so what makes you think they'll decsend upon Belfats and other destinations in vast hordes ? :confused:

We sold around 4000 tickets to the home sections for that game. While admittedly not a sell-out, I would say that was one of the top home attendances in the whole competition.

For a change, could you please try and concentrate your efforts on being an authority on something that you actually know the facts about? it gets tiresome after a few thousand posts.

Oh, and I'll gladly take a refraction or whatever the fcuk they're called. You talk a serious amount of sh�te.

fbtn

02/11/2007, 12:48 AM

Actually you were talking about Harps' fairweather support as if 'twere an affliction Derry was immune to but anyhoo....

If they get into the Setanta, Harps will get bigger home gates than Drgheda for example.

Home games are the issue here steve

Outside of Derry there was no "vast hordes" ( :rolleyes: btw) descending on Belfast from the other clubs

You're kidding yourself if you think Harps wont pull in a crowd for home games against Linfield and Glentoran

After that who cares??

How many were at Cork v Dungannon Swifts for example??

Would their crowds be worse than the Northern teams crowds??

And it's ludicrous to suggest they wouldn't draw a large crowd for a semi final/final.

You genuinely chose to take me literally there?? Really couldn't see what I was getting at?? Really?? :rolleyes:

Don't bother man. You'll get nowhere with. He knows it all and it will take half your day to read a thesis type waffle reply.

CollegeTillIDie

02/11/2007, 6:59 AM

Ok here's a doomsday scenario. Some season in the future. The FAI Cup winners go down the same season ( Bray did this in 1999 hear me out), The League Cup is won by a First Division team ( Limerick FC did this a few years back) That could mean that in the Setanta the following season. The Eircom League is represented by the previous years Cup winners ( currently a First Division side) and the League Cup winners win the play-off with the First Division champions meaning that this slot is also a First Division side. So you would have 2 First Division teams in the Setanta. I happen to think they would hold their own against the lesser lights North of the Border, particularly the 3rd and 4th placed finishers there.

Patrick Dunne

02/11/2007, 7:06 AM

Places for the Setanta Cup should be awarded on clubs performances off the pitch, with perhaps a presentation and a DVD also required. Surely any club featuring "Right Here, Right Now" on the DVD soundtrack would be a shoe-in.

jebus

02/11/2007, 7:40 AM

btid1

02/11/2007, 8:57 AM

The FAI should fine O'Connor and Rico �5,000 each.

The FAI can't have people saying what they think!!

Ye God forbid people speak their mind because if they do they are called moaners/whingers!!!

Mr A

02/11/2007, 8:58 AM

Ah, quit your whinging.

fbtn

02/11/2007, 9:07 AM

Ye God forbid people speak their mind because if they do they are called moaners/whingers!!!

What an amazing piece of irony after you filled 5 pages with you own whinging :D

Both managers are among the worst moaners in the league. Especially Rico.

If Cark or Bohs were in Setanta you wouldn't hear a murmur from either.

btid1

02/11/2007, 9:11 AM

What an amazing piece of irony after you filled 5 pages with you own whinging :D

Both managers are among the worst moaners in the league. Especially Rico.

If Cark or Bohs were in Setanta you wouldn't hear a murmur from either.

I love the way expressing an alternative opinion on this board is seen as whinging!

What else has Connor been "moaning" about lately?

I have my opinion on this regardless of whether Bohs are in or not.

Again I wonder would your opinion be the same if you were not in line to profit from the situation?

Sam_Heggy

02/11/2007, 9:14 AM

Actually you were talking about Harps' fairweather support as if 'twere an affliction Derry was immune to but anyhoo....

If they get into the Setanta, Harps will get bigger home gates than Drgheda for example.

Home games are the issue here steve

Outside of Derry there was no "vast hordes" ( :rolleyes: btw) descending on Belfast from the other clubs

You're kidding yourself if you think Harps wont pull in a crowd for home games against Linfield and Glentoran

After that who cares??

How many were at Cork v Dungannon Swifts for example??

Would their crowds be worse than the Northern teams crowds??

And it's ludicrous to suggest they wouldn't draw a large crowd for a semi final/final.

You genuinely chose to take me literally there?? Really couldn't see what I was getting at?? Really?? :rolleyes:

I knew I shoulda bought ya a pint in the gallery a few weeks ago :D

Sam_Heggy

02/11/2007, 9:19 AM

I love the way expressing an alternative opinion on this board is seen as whinging!

What else has Connor been "moaning" about lately?

I have my opinion on this regardless of whether Bohs are in or not.

Again I wonder would your opinion be the same if you were not in line to profit from the situation?

My opinion would be the same, most definite, its the rules set out at the start of the season, simple as.

Would your opinion be the same if Conor didnt slam it?

btid1

02/11/2007, 9:32 AM

Would your opinion be the same if Conor didnt slam it?

So now your saying I dont have my own mind and only re-hash whatever Connor comes out with.........?........Give me a break will ya!

One person I certainly dont look to for inspiration when I am forming my opinions is our esteemed leader!

bigmac

02/11/2007, 9:44 AM

Ok here's a doomsday scenario. Some season in the future.

How is that related to the LC winners playing off against the First Division winners? In your scenario we'd still have 2 first division teams regardless of the playoff.

lofty9

02/11/2007, 9:44 AM

I'll welcome it - only if Harps win the league though. It'll guarantee a good bit of revenue for both clubs.

fbtn

02/11/2007, 9:52 AM

I love the way expressing an alternative opinion on this board is seen as whinging!

What else has Connor been "moaning" about lately?

I have my opinion on this regardless of whether Bohs are in or not.

Again I wonder would your opinion be the same if you were not in line to profit from the situation?

Do you think there is a difference between giving your opinion and whinging?

Because I do and I know what category you are in from reading this entire thread.

Sam_Heggy

02/11/2007, 9:53 AM

So now your saying I dont have my own mind and only re-hash whatever Connor comes out with.........?........Give me a break will ya!

One person I certainly dont look to for inspiration when I am forming my opinions is our esteemed leader!

Its exactly the same as what you claimed about us.

"Again I wonder would your opinion be the same if you were not in line to profit from the situation?"

btid1

02/11/2007, 9:55 AM

Do you think there is a difference between giving your opinion and whinging?

Because I do and I know what category you are in from reading this entire thread.

In your opinion...........and to be honest thats not worth all that much to me........but thanks anyway.......

btid1

02/11/2007, 9:56 AM

Its exactly the same as what you claimed about us.

"Again I wonder would your opinion be the same if you were not in line to profit from the situation?"

Its not because I dont intimate that someone else is responsible for the formation of your opinion I simply asked if circumstances may have clouded your view on the issue.