Whinging Ireland fans

[gilberto_eire]

is anyone else getting sick of this whinging?.

thread after thread of ''Stan out'' ''Delaney out'', calls for abandoning games and burning tickets,whistle protests and black t-shirts. if this is the actions of the ''best fans in the world'' its a sad state of affairs.

we are a country of 6 million people, of which football is not our national sport!. YES the likes of Denmark, Finland etc.... can qualify for tournaments with a population of roughly the same size...but whats there national sports??

also they have(relatively)strong domestic games so have bigger crops of players to choose from, while we have a domestic game which is starved of media attention and attendences adveraging at the 2,000 mark!. that leaves us with only a pool of players to be choose from across the pond in england!.

with the influx of foreigners into the english game since the late 90's less opportunities are been offered to up and coming irish players thus reduceing our pool of players even more!

look at our squad now compared to lets use 1994

Given(NEW)
Finnan(LIV)
Dunne(Man C)
McShane(Sun)
McGeady(Cel)
Carsley/Reid(Eve/Char)
Ireland(Man C)
Duff(New)
Keane(Spurs)
Doyle(Rea) this is arguably are best 11, i think 99% will agree.

1994

Bonner(Cel)
McGrath(Villa)
Staunton(Villa)
Irwin(Man U)
Babb(Liv)
Keane(Man U)
Coyne(Motherwell)
Phelan(Man C)
Townsend(Villa)
Houghton(Villa
Sheridan(Shef W)


the comparison is massive..... you have two players playing regularily with the champions, 4 with the runners up the 2 yrs previous and the rest with mid-table clubs but all starters!!.

now you have players playing for lower-end clubs, and not all starting regularily.

we dont have a history of regular qualification for tournaments so it annoys me when i hear all this crap been said the last 2 qualification campaigns.... the players just arent there at the moment, basically the same team got us to 88/90 and 94 with a few exceptions(of players of a high calibre).

i never really agreed with the appointment of stan but the critisism is hard done by, the players are trained by the clubs all year, and its only prep work that goes on in international management so to say that its his fault and not the players is a joke really. they messed up in cyprus and nearly san marino, to contribute that to a manager is a joke. ive played under many managers myself in junior and apart from minor directions like ''play short passes, play the ball in behind the left-back'' you play your own game!!.


anyone who thinks its a given that we should qualify with that team needs there head examined...its a poor team we have at the moment and will stay near as it is IMO until we can push the LOI on to at least the level(attendence wise, finance etc....) the scandinavians are at!

get behind the team and stop complaining we're not brazil ffs!!

[sligoman]

anyone who thinks its a given that we should qualify with that team needs there head examinedWith the group we are in, yes we should be qualifying! Czech's aren't as good as they used to be, we are better than them, but not with the management set-up we have right now.

[elroy]

I agree in part with what you're saying. I do think expectation levels are a bit high at times. However, with the squad we have got, although limited, we shouldve qualified in the last campaign and particularly in this campaign. Look at the ease at which Germany, the only good team in the group have qualified.

As Johnny Giles said last night, you can only look at the team and ask have we got the most out of what is available to us and the plain answer to that is NO. Who predominantly is to blame for that? Well the FAI for appointing an inexperienced (to say the least) manager and Stan for picking incorrect teams when 95% of the Irish public could identify the correct team. This campaign is without doubt an opportunity missed.

However, does stan get too much criticism? I think so, particularly personal criticism I know he doesnt help himself sometimes but we seem to have adopted an english style reaction to our results. Everyone was on a high after the Denmark game, many everyone is calling for his head again. The truth is that the FAI will not sack stan and he will see us through the 2010 campaign-I just hope that he learns from his mistakes of this campaign.

[Hibs4Ever]

Finlands national sport is ice hockey by the way ;)

[Maroon 7]

Even less than 6 million Gilberto. The Finns to be fair to them haven't qualified for a tournament since God knows when. Even the Danes, Swedes and Norweigans don't qualify for every tournament. Far from it. Only the Swedes look certain to qualify at the moment.

I take your point though that there is no way we are going to qualify for most tournaments. We are going to miss more than we qualify for IMO until we happen to get an exceptional bunch of players at more or less the same time. And that doesn't happen too often.

That said I don't believe we are helping ourselves at all with some of the muppets who are involved in the FAI and who they appoint as managers. We have limited resources so we should always be trying to maximise what we have and under Staunton that is never going to happen as he is hindering the team more than helping them.

I don't think there are many really good international sides in Europe at the moment so a bit of organisation, management nous and passion can take you a long way. You only have to look at the Scots and the Greeks.

[cavan_fan]

Finlands national sport is ice hockey by the way ;)

And they never qualify for anything

[Stuttgart88]

It's unrealistic to expect our better players to all be playing for top 4/5/6 clubs. They're all very wealthy clubs and the game is now truly global. In 1994 it'd have been rare for English clubs to have the best players from Africa, Argentina, Spain, eastern Europe, Portugal and even Germany's star player. In the "old days" the big 4 were made up of the best players from the British Isles and a few from further afield. Now the big clubs are made up of many players from further afield and only a few from the British Isles.

I'm not saying we should have qualified this time out, but we should still be in contention with 3 games to go.

Stan has made errors and the players have made errors and apart from San Marino away I honestly don't think we've got anything even marginally more than we deserved in a game. The last time I remember a bit of proper luck was the Holland game in 2001. However, players make errors in a fraction of a second, Stan's errors are measured and deliberated upon, and consistent.

[mackannovic]

We're all behind the players, we're not behind the manager. There's a difference.

[Ozymandias]

[QUOTE=gilberto_eire;770361]is anyone else getting sick of this whinging?.

thread after thread of ''Stan out'' ''Delaney out'',

=QUOTE]

yes..and when they go it will stop....people who are giving out are passionate about this team...all I want is for us to get the best out of what we have...if we qualify well in good if not fair enough its because we are lacking....

we are not getting the best out of our current bunch of players...fact...that is down to the orgaisation skills and management skils of the management team......

for f*** sake...we lost 5 -2 to cyprus (yes i said FIVE) we beat san Marino with an injury time winner

and you think my expectations are to high.....look at norhtern Ireland and scotland...with organised managers..they ae getting a nice tune from the players...

[pete]

When was the last time Ireland effectively out of qualification contention with still 3 games left in the group?

At least with McCarthy & Kerr & brought it down to the last game.

[Stuttgart88]

When was the last time Ireland effectively out of qualification contention with still 3 games left in the group?

At least with McCarthy & Kerr & brought it down to the last game.

Eoin Hand immediately pre-Jack?

[cavan_fan]

yes..and when they go it will stop....people who are giving out are passionate about this team...all I want is for us to get the best out of what we have...if we qualify well in good if not fair enough its because we are lacking....


No it won't. It didnt stop when Kerr, McCarthy or Charlton left and the FAI have had more Chief Exec's than any other organisation known to man.

The rule seems to be that if we dont qualify the manager should be sacked. The last time we did that we panicked into appointing Stan. Who here wouldnt have preferred if they had kept Kerr?

[jmurphyc]

Nobody is asking for us to qualify for every tournament. However, we as fans have a right to protest. We pay money to watch the team so why shouldn't we be able to voice our concerns. Maybe you might think it's a bit extreme but that's the only way to get the message through to the FAI otherwise they'll act as though all is well and good. Would you rather a protest which helps to get rid of a useless manager or be stuck with this guy and let him mess up our national team for years to come.
All I personally want from this team, and i think most people would agree is a bit of passion and organisation. If we have those two then we'd always give ourselves a chance of qualifying. To be effectively out of the race for qualification for 2008 with three games to go is a joke. Maybe the Czech Republic are better than us - I personally don't think so - but are they really THAT much better than us.
The results that this regime has brought has made us a laughing stock. Wales won 5-2 in Slovakia last night ffs. We really could get humiliated in Cardiff. I'll be going to that game, but if Stan hasn't gone by then then it'd probably be better if we got hammered as that would be the only way to save ourselves from years of inadequacy.

[ifk101]

Football is the national sport of Denmark.

Add Finland have never qualified for anything as far as I know.

[SUB of the day]

We're all behind the players, we're not behind the manager. There's a difference.

says it all:(

[WembleyGreen]

Hey Gilberto, Why shouldn't we have our say on how we feel? We're the mugs who pay good money to go to Croker, Nicosia, San Marino, Bratislava and Praque and countless other places. We are the ones who buy the merchandise and we are bums on seats who fork out for programmes etc. What do you suggest we do, nothing? The LoI debate is the same old story that always does the rounds on here, improve this and that, the FAI have been in charge for most of the last century and it's been in decline for most of that time. 4.5 million people in RoI, 1.5million in the Dublin area alone that's the problem lack of support from public and too small a population to sustain a viable financially self suffecient league of any real quality. Teams like Sligo Rovers, Cork City etc will only appeal to people from those towns/cities. Take Bray Wanderers, how many people from say Wicklow, Arklow or even near by Greystones would or do support them? Not many I'd say and it's to do with the fact that they are seen purely in the context of being a "Bray' team. The same with most of the other LoI teams. GAA works because it's a county wide team that plays and even then it's only the bigger and more successful counties that are supported in any big numbers or when someone gets to a final/ semi etc. All our better players are going to want to make the most of their talent and ambitious players will want to play at the highest level they can achieve and for our lads that means in England mostly, a better more astute manager would and could do more with this bunch of players but sadly we've got trainee when what we needed was a master!

[Dricky]

I'd agree with some of your post difference in standards between the two, however if Denmark (1992) and Greece (2004) can win then qualification is a minimum, the fault with it is the structure of the FAI, we are paying two people to do a job and they are not succsefull at it. Building a team and building a manager should not be done at the same time.
Throw into that mix the Genisis report and it would lead me to believe that experience is vital for the roll as manager so take the money from STan and Robs and get the experience.
I don't buy this 'it's a young team being blooded' crap the team should learn from their games, it is fairly obvious they are not, this leads me to believe that the tactics are not there or the team aren't responding to them, do you replace the team or the manager???

We were beaten because we can't pass to save our lives, the Czech showed that with two or three passes to feet in confined areas can bring them all the way up to our half. I feel if that can't be instilled into a team then there isn't much hope for us. They moved in small units, we didn't The Czech's are not that good a side.

[Stuttgart88]

We were beaten because we can't pass to save our lives, the Czech showed that with two or three passes to feet in confined areas can bring them all the way up to our half. I watched the game with another London based poster last night. Throughout the game we just rolled our eyes at some of our feeble attempts at passing, even during our good spell!

[Tir Oilean]

See your point but you were whingin (rightly) about your clubs managers ambition etc earlier in the season. Its what we do tis human nature. Second best is never good enough. the times of "shur we'll be grand" are well gone!

[Ozymandias]

No it won't. It didnt stop when Kerr, McCarthy or Charlton left and the FAI have had more Chief Exec's than any other organisation known to man.

The rule seems to be that if we dont qualify the manager should be sacked. The last time we did that we panicked into appointing Stan. Who here wouldnt have preferred if they had kept Kerr?

the fans weren't calling for kerrs head it was delaney...McCarthy was after saipan...not getting into that..CEO's went in the FAI because of internal feuding and politics..don't know any fan that wanted Bernard o Byrne to go....it was corcoran and delaney

read my post again..i said its not about qualification but about haveing a competent coach getting the best out of his players

when McCarthy took over we lost game after game etc but he was getting the best out of the young players he had...fans didn't call for his head then

[Stuttgart88]

the fans weren't calling for kerrs head it was delaneya lot were in fairness, as far as I recall anyway.

[gilberto_eire]

See your point but you were whingin (rightly) about your clubs managers ambition etc earlier in the season. Its what we do tis human nature. Second best is never good enough. the times of "shur we'll be grand" are well gone!

your pointing to me been hypocritical and i dont agree with that due too.....

the differances are...

i never called to abandon games etc....


we are 3rd in the table in this group far from been utterly disgraced, while GUFC we're joint 2nd bottom at the time having not won at home all year.

we bought in tonnes of players who never made an impact, players been played out of position etc...

there not even comparable, tony can buy players in, staunton cant..... a new manager comes in for us he can change everything around, stan goes its gonna be basically the same team as it was under kerr.

i could also argue my point that we are a FULL-TIME team competing down the basement with PART-TIME players and not doing aswell as we should be... i still dont think tony is the man for the job and cant see us winning a league with him!!

[gilberto_eire]

Football is the national sport of Denmark.

Add Finland have never qualified for anything as far as I know.

ok sorry take out finland i meant the scandinavian countries by putting etc... after the 1st two!!

[Ozymandias]

a lot were in fairness, as far as I recall anyway.

don't think so..never remember a protest trying to be organised..there was a section booed him after the swiss game..no calls for his head

[Stuttgart88]

There were loads here, slating him for his negativity and so on. That's what I thought anyway.

[DaveyCakes]

With the group we are in, yes we should be qualifying! Czech's aren't as good as they used to be, we are better than them, but not with the management set-up we have right now.

We're better then the Czechs??? :eek:

Are you mad?

[Nailer77]

In response to the first post, I doubt anyone thinks its 'a given' we should be qualifying for major tournaments but at the very least we should be giving ourselves a real chance and playing to our potential. That is not happening at the moment because :

A) Out coach is selecting the wrong team ( and I doubt 99% of people would agree with McGeady in the first 11 on the evidence of the last two games or his previous performances for that matter)

B) There appears to be no game plan and Stan cannot make substituions effectively.

C) Our manager can't get the best out of what he has or even worse he appears to be unable to identify what it is he actually has at his disposal.

I'm not one for bashing Stan, he's an honest guy trying to do his best but he appears hopelessly out of his depth. Even in McCarthy's first error ridden campaign we were in contention to the last game. We've three games to go here and the results include a disastrous defeat to Cyprus, a diabolical performance against San Marino and more poor performances than good ones with no real sign of progress. Yes we've brought in young players but they're promising young players and it would have happened no matter who was in charge, so I feel its a bit rich to be claiming credit for this.

Personally I think a team with players like Doyle, Keane, Dunne, Finnan, McShane, the two Reids, Ireland, Duff and Hunt should be pushing the likes of the Czechs all the way. I mean I keep hearing about the lack of quality in players but who have the Czech got apart from Rosicky and Jankulovski? Don't make these other middling nations out to be something they're not. We have the players to compete we're just not using them correctly.

[backstothewall]

dito what nailer77 said

[Stuttgart88]

I think Nailers post is a good one.

Just watching Eurosport's round up. I see Portugal have just blown a lead late on for second time in a week and Scolari has lost the plot. I wonder what's being written on the Portuguese message boards.

[backstothewall]

If the Portugeuse FA had appointed Jorge Costa as manager, coming from putting out cones at Desportivo das Aves, they would have a bloody good point. But Portugal went and got a world cup winner.

[bennocelt]

get behind the team and stop complaining we're not brazil ffs!!


yeah you are right cause third place is such a great achievement for such a small nation:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[gilberto_eire]

yeah you are right cause third place is such a great achievement for such a small nation:rolleyes::rolleyes:

where did i say it was a great position?!.... we are where we should be IMO behind the czechs and germany!. most of our team are mid-lower table Prem' and not all guaranteed starting positions at there clubs, hardly reasons for ppl to start threads about abandoning games and holding mass protests, ye'd swear we we're a world class team who qualify and do well in every tournament the way ppl are reacting to this!

[waide]

Let's be honest here guys' when the draw initially came out for euro 08.Can any of you honestly say that you thought Ireland would pip Germany or the Czecs to a place in the finals.Steve Staunton obviously is tactically inept, but that aside i don,t honestly think that any other of the so called top managers would have taken you to the finals with the squad of players at Ireland's disposal,no doubt that there are some decent players in the panel,Hunt ,Doyle,Keane,Dunne to name but a few,but imo the only world class player on the books is Given and that is never going to be enough to take yous through such a testing group.Best of luck with your remaining fixtures.

[carloz]

Let's be honest here guys' when the draw initially came out for euro 08.Can any of you honestly say that you thought Ireland would pip Germany or the Czecs to a place in the finals.Steve Staunton obviously is tactically inept, but that aside i don,t honestly think that any other of the so called top managers would have taken you to the finals with the squad of players at Ireland's disposal,no doubt that there are some decent players in the panel,Hunt ,Doyle,Keane,Dunne to name but a few,but imo the only world class player on the books is Given and that is never going to be enough to take yous through such a testing group.Best of luck with your remaining fixtures.
See this is the mentality that so annoys me about some Irish fans( although looking over your post it looks like your not Irish). Look at every other group, we have got the easiest group by some distance, particulrly with two teams qualifying. Germany are obviously very strong and probably the strongest in Europe. Everyone knows that the Czechs are on the slide, and are not a patch on the side of the early years 2000s. The Slovaks and Welsh ae really nothing teams. they are teams we shoul be beating. Mark my words we will not get a group as easy as that for some time and the Czechs will be doing very well to get 1 point in the European Championships. We let an excellent opportunity slip and it sickens me, that group was there for the taking.

[eekers]

ireland and scotland have a very similar player base.
i'd even say player by player we have a superior team.
but scotland can put up a good fight in their group containing france and italy.
whereas we limp out with 3 games to play.

there are very few well organised international team these days and anyone that is has a good chance of going far. counts more than having a 11 star players. look at greece in euro 2004.

[SkStu]

look its time to stop talkin sh1te and start examining the facts of this debate. We do not have players capable of qualifying us for this tournament. Germany and the Czechs still have far far superior quality players than we have. We have no right to expect qualification to ANY major tournament. We are minnows in terms of World football who got lucky and qualified for a few WCs and one (yes, just one) European finals.

People are blind if they think that we should have qualified for this tournament - WE DO NOT HAVE THE PLAYERS. Look at the standard of player that got us to and represented us in our World Cups and Euro 88:

Irish squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_UEFA_European_Football_Championship_squads#Ir eland) for Euro 88: Bonner, Morris, Hughton, McCarthy, Moran, Whelan, McGrath, Houghton, Aldridge, Stapleton, Galvin, Cascarino, L. O'Brien, D. Kelly, Sheedy, Peyton, J. Byrne, Sheridan, Anderson, Quinn.

Irish squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#Ireland) for WC 90: Bonner, Morris, Staunton, McCarthy, Moran, Whelan, McGrath, Houghton, Aldridge, Cascarino, Sheedy, O'Leary, Townsend, Hughton, Slaven, Sheridan, N. Quinn, Stapleton, D Kelly, J Byrne, McLoughlin, Peyton.

Irish squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#Republic_of_Ireland) for WC 94: Bonner, Irwin, Phelan, Moran, McGrath, Keane, Townsend, Houghton, Aldridge, Sheridan, Staunton, G. Kelly, Kernaghan, Babb, Coyne, Cascarino, McGoldrick, Whelan, McLoughlin, D. Kelly, McAteer, A. Kelly

Irish squad for WC 02: Given, Finnan, Harte, Cunningham, Staunton, Keane*, McAteer, Holland, Duff, Keane, Kilbane, Kinsella, Connolly, Breen, Dunne, Kiely, N Quinn, G Kelly, Morrison, Andy O'Brien, S. Reid, Carsley, A. Kelly.


Now look at the weekends squad and tell me honestly if you think we have the calibre of player that deserves or has the ability to qualify ahead of the Germans and Czechs. In fact if you look at the squads from 88 til now the main thing that stands out is the gradual decline in the quality of our players (with a few obvious exceptions - the Keanes, Given and Duff).

Squad for Czech game: Colgan, Doyle, Given, Henderson, Dunne, Finnan, Foley, Kelly, McShane, O’Shea, Carsley, Douglas, Gibson, Hunt, Ireland, Kilbane, McGeady, Alan O’Brien, Potter, Reid, Doyle, Keane, Keogh, Long, D Murphy.

That squad is not fit to lace the boots of any of the previous squads that qualified. And that is all that those squads did - they just got us there. We didnt win the tournaments, in fact the furthest we got was, with our most talented squad, to a QF scoring 2 goals and winning no games!!!!!! And that was with top premiership players and continental players who were amongst the most influential players for their clubs at the time.

Its time to take the blinkers off people and realise that we dont have the quality to qualify for a major finals. The best we have is potential. If anyone can tell me why we should have qualified for the EC with that squad ill be impressed.


edit: i think we will have actually done pretty well if we come third in the group with those players.

[Noelys Guitar]

look its time to stop talkin sh1te and start examining the facts of this debate. We do not have players capable of qualifying us for this tournament. Germany and the Czechs still have far far superior quality players than we have. We have no right to expect qualification to ANY major tournament. We are minnows in terms of World football who got lucky and qualified for a few WCs and one (yes, just one) European finals.

People are blind if they think that we should have qualified for this tournament - WE DO NOT HAVE THE PLAYERS. Look at the standard of player that got us to and represented us in our World Cups and Euro 88:

Irish squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_UEFA_European_Football_Championship_squads#Ir eland) for Euro 88: Bonner, Morris, Hughton, McCarthy, Moran, Whelan, McGrath, Houghton, Aldridge, Stapleton, Galvin, Cascarino, L. O'Brien, D. Kelly, Sheedy, Peyton, J. Byrne, Sheridan, Anderson, Quinn.

Irish squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#Ireland) for WC 90: Bonner, Morris, Staunton, McCarthy, Moran, Whelan, McGrath, Houghton, Aldridge, Cascarino, Sheedy, O'Leary, Townsend, Hughton, Slaven, Sheridan, N. Quinn, Stapleton, D Kelly, J Byrne, McLoughlin, Peyton.

Irish squad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#Republic_of_Ireland) for WC 94: Bonner, Irwin, Phelan, Moran, McGrath, Keane, Townsend, Houghton, Aldridge, Sheridan, Staunton, G. Kelly, Kernaghan, Babb, Coyne, Cascarino, McGoldrick, Whelan, McLoughlin, D. Kelly, McAteer, A. Kelly

Irish squad for WC 02: Given, Finnan, Harte, Cunningham, Staunton, Keane*, McAteer, Holland, Duff, Keane, Kilbane, Kinsella, Connolly, Breen, Dunne, Kiely, N Quinn, G Kelly, Morrison, Andy O'Brien, S. Reid, Carsley, A. Kelly.


Now look at the weekends squad and tell me honestly if you think we have the calibre of player that deserves or has the ability to qualify ahead of the Germans and Czechs. In fact if you look at the squads from 88 til now the main thing that stands out is the gradual decline in the quality of our players (with a few obvious exceptions - the Keanes, Given and Duff).

Squad for Czech game: Colgan, Doyle, Given, Henderson, Dunne, Finnan, Foley, Kelly, McShane, O’Shea, Carsley, Douglas, Gibson, Hunt, Ireland, Kilbane, McGeady, Alan O’Brien, Potter, Reid, Doyle, Keane, Keogh, Long, D Murphy.

That squad is not fit to lace the boots of any of the previous squads that qualified. And that is all that those squads did - they just got us there. We didnt win the tournaments, in fact the furthest we got was, with our most talented squad, to a QF scoring 2 goals and winning no games!!!!!! And that was with top premiership players and continental players who were amongst the most influential players for their clubs at the time.

Its time to take the blinkers off people and realise that we dont have the quality to qualify for a major finals. The best we have is potential. If anyone can tell me why we should have qualified for the EC with that squad ill be impressed.

Greece and Denmark winning the Euros. Scotland top of their group. The Czechs are a poor reflection of the team they had a few years ago. Baros is a joker of the highest order. There is not a truely world class team around ie a team even half full of world class players. And this is the weakest group we have been in since the old 3 team groups.

[Morbo]

How can anyone claim we are where we deserve to be? whether or not we deserve to be 3rd with the players we got is debatable but we definitely should not be 8 points off 1st and 6 points off 2nd and virtually eliminated with 3 games to go, when was the last time we were so far off qualifying?

I agree that sometimes fans are too quick to call for the managers head but this isn't one of those times, for me its rare to have a case that is this clear cut, Stan has to go if we are to have any reasonable chance of qualifying for the world cup.

[viagogo]

Nobody expects Ireland to qualify for every WC/Euro but we do expect them to put up some sort of challenge.

In this group we lost 5-2 to Cyprus, barely beat San Marino away and put in mostly crap performances bar the Czechs at home.

At the moment Poland, Finland, Greece, Norway, Romania, and Scotland are all in contention for qualifying for the tournament. We are out with THREE games to go.

Are the players these countries have better than us? Would these countries put up with the crap we put up with? I dont think so.

[SkStu]

Morbo, at the end of the day whats the difference between finishing 8 points or 2 points off qualifying. You are either good enough or you are not. Its that simple.

Noely, the Czechs are a team in decline but theyre still far superior to us. They have better quality in all areas of the pitch than we do. They know how to play the game and they deserve to be ahead of us. Jankuloski, Koller, Baros, Cech off the top of my head are players that would walk into our team.

Scotland have players playing in the top premiership teams and i would say at least half their squad play european football every season. We have Finnan and O'Shea. Robbie Keane in the UEFA too. Scotland dont have a League 1 player in their squad.

This may or may not have been the easiest group we have had and i think that it is a reflection of the players we have (and the manager) that they cant qualify from it. And also a reflection of the better quality player that we had when we qualified in 88, 90, 94 and 02.

[SkStu]

by the way, im not saying that Stan is the man for the job. I think that another manager would have made a better attempt at qualifying and we mightnt be so far behind. But in any event i think that the teams and players that deserve to qualify usually do. And i think that Germany and the Czechs were always going to get out of this group.

I just think that the players are not there for us anymore and it is going to get harder and harder to get through qualifying in the future. We just dont have enough players playing at a high enough level and this is exposed ruthlessly by the Germanys and Czech Republics of the world. We just have to change the way football is run in this country from top to bottom.

[Morbo]

Morbo, at the end of the day whats the difference between finishing 8 points or 2 points off qualifying. You are either good enough or you are not. Its that simple.


No its not that simple, some teams do qualify for tournaments that they didn't deserve to and some who were good enough to qualify don't, there is definitely a luck factor in football that accounts for at least for a 2-3 point swing, If we had a good manager and a bit of luck I believe we could of qualified but with Staunton, all the luck in the world was never going to save us.

[eekers]

Scotland have players playing in the top premiership teams


Gordon Sunderland
Hutton Rangers
McManus Celtic
Weir Rangers
Alexander Derby County
McCulloch Rangers
Ferguson Rangers
Fletcher Man United Reserves
Brown Celtic
Hartley Celtic
McFadden Everton

Pearson Derby County
O'Connor Birmingham
McGregor Rangers
McEveley Derby County
Caldwell Celtic
Boyd Rangers
Maloney Aston Villa


a glittering array of talent i'm sure you'd agree.
average players playing for average clubs organised by a good manager into a good team capable of qualifying for major tournaments.

whereas we have similiar players, plus a few of better quality, disorganised by guy with a terrible selection policy, no ambition, and who doesnt know how to hold on to a lead.

[SkStu]

you cannot selectively quote me like that. A more accurate quote would have been "Scotland have players playing in the top premiership teams and i would say at least half their squad play european football every season ... Scotland dont have a League 1 player in their squad."

following on, my guess about their european experience was way off...

Gordon Sunderland - European experience with Hearts.
Hutton Rangers - CL
McManus Celtic - CL
Weir Rangers - CL
Alexander Derby County - bottom premier
McCulloch Rangers - CL
Ferguson Rangers - CL
Fletcher Man United -not reserves, CL experience, league winner
Brown Celtic - CL
Hartley Celtic - CL
McFadden Everton - Europe & top 6 premiership side.
Pearson Derby County - has CL experience with Celtic
O'Connor Birmingham - bottom of premiership
McGregor Rangers - Champions League
McEveley Derby County - terrible (still premiership) player
Caldwell Celtic - Champions League
Boyd Rangers - Champions Leage
Maloney Aston Villa - good premiership side, average player

so out of that 18, they have 14 players who have played in top European club competition, 12 of whom do so regularly. I hope i dont have to spell out the obvious advantage they have over the irish squad in that respect.

Colgan, Doyle, Given, Henderson, Dunne, Finnan, Foley, Kelly, McShane, O’Shea, Carsley, Douglas, Gibson, Hunt, Ireland, Kilbane, McGeady, Alan O’Brien, Potter, Reid, Doyle, Keane, Keogh, Long, D Murphy.

Out of that 25 players, we have Finnan, O'Shea (is he Utd. reserves too?) and McGeady who play with some sort of regularity in the CL. Keane has played there but usually he gets UEFA. Given has played UEFA. Thats 5 players in our squad with european experience - and im being generous. The rest is made up of mid to low end Premiership players, a few championship players, Gibson and Douglas. And i wont even go into how few of them are key players or regular starters.

Now, considering how much more European experience they have in that squad, are you really that surprised that Scotland are doing better than we are?

Until we get 10-15 players playing regularly in the CL, testing themselves against the top players in the world each week then we will only have the smallest chance of qualifying for a major tournament. Changing the manager would admittedly increase our chances, though only slightly. The problem runs deeper than just the manager.

[bennocelt]

.

I'm not one for bashing Stan, he's an honest guy trying to do his best but he appears hopelessly out of his depth. Even in McCarthy's first error ridden campaign we were in contention to the last game.
.

i think he is a greedy mother........
honesty? surely he would admit he hasnt a clue, he is way out of his depth and resign................Keegan did it with honour at england

but you are spot on about the Czechs:)

[bennocelt]

where did i say it was a great position?!.... we are where we should be IMO behind the czechs and germany!. most of our team are mid-lower table Prem' and not all guaranteed starting positions at there clubs, hardly reasons for ppl to start threads about abandoning games and holding mass protests, ye'd swear we we're a world class team who qualify and do well in every tournament the way ppl are reacting to this!

cause it seems you are happy with third
But it will probably be fourth where we finish anyway

How would you explain the success of Scotland, Greece, denmark, or even Norn Iron under Lawrie?????????

Int football is rubbish, very few good teams, Ireland should be beating the likes of Slovakia, Cyprus and San Marino..................why is that so hard for you to accept............

[bennocelt]

you cannot selectively quote me like that. A more accurate quote would have been "Scotland have players playing in the top premiership teams and i would say at least half their squad play european football every season ... Scotland dont have a League 1 player in their squad."

.

to be fair it was a glaring error in your analysis:)


No one here thingks Irleand have a world class team, but we do expect to beat the likes of Slovakis, wales, Cyprus and san marino and beat an ordinary Czech team at home at least
A good manager makes the world of difference, thats why they are there in the first place, all teams have managers....expect Ireland of course!

[gilberto_eire]

cause it seems you are happy with third
But it will probably be fourth where we finish anyway

How would you explain the success of Scotland, Greece, denmark, or even Norn Iron under Lawrie?????????

Int football is rubbish, very few good teams, Ireland should be beating the likes of Slovakia, Cyprus and San Marino..................why is that so hard for you to accept............

because you've named 4 teams that have had the rub of the green with them, theres obvioulsy gonna be some plus Greece have an easier group and NOR Ireland arent gonna make it!.

go back to our 1st game, we were VERY unlucky against the germans in stuttgart!!. no excuse for the Cyprus game, and we failed to put the San Marino lads away which nearly cost us!. slight changes in the Germany game and a win in the Cyprus game would have made all the differance!. how anyone can say its stauntons fault Cyprus hammered us is stupid, its the 11 players on the pitch, it would have been virtually the same team from any other manager and that motivation crap doesnt wash on me, these are full-grown professionals they know what they have to do themselves on the pitch!.

i never said i was happy with 3rd im saying ppl reaction to this has been so OTT its unbelievable, its like we never failed to qualify before!!.

[Noelys Guitar]

because you've named 4 teams that have had the rub of the green with them, theres obvioulsy gonna be some plus Greece have an easier group and NOR Ireland arent gonna make it!.

go back to our 1st game, we were VERY unlucky against the germans in stuttgart!!. no excuse for the Cyprus game, and we failed to put the San Marino lads away which nearly cost us!. slight changes in the Germany game and a win in the Cyprus game would have made all the differance!. how anyone can say its stauntons fault Cyprus hammered us is stupid, its the 11 players on the pitch, it would have been virtually the same team from any other manager and that motivation crap doesnt wash on me, these are full-grown professionals they know what they have to do themselves on the pitch!.

i never said i was happy with 3rd im saying ppl reaction to this has been so OTT its unbelievable, its like we never failed to qualify before!!.


Nobody who saw the German game would claim we were unlucky. Only for Given it would have been 3 or 4 nil. Your slant is way off. And trying to explain away Stans selections ie against Cyprus is laugable.

[geysir]

Stan was right about San Marino becoming a handfull later on in the group.
Did you read about their game against the Czechs :)