Drogheda Accounts

[Celdrog]

Thanks Stu.
€386K = Millions of Euro.:confused: Looks like some people did well in college, some didn't.

How much to UCD owe the revenue and your creditors?
How many eircom league clubs owe more than €250K?
Have the Drogs been given a winding up order a la Cork, Shels etc?

By the way i really appreciate the info by the way.

[pete]

I believe the UCD posse are including Director loans as creditors?

Ultimately they are money owed which will have to be paid back at some stage. If the people did not want the money back they would have taken shares in Drogs?

The example given was O'Brien at Waterford. It would seem unlikely but Drogs could have a similar arrangement with the Directors.

BTW who is building the other facilities around the proposed new stadium? Will Drogs United own them?

[Celdrog]

BTW who is building the other facilities around the proposed new stadium? Will Drogs United own them?
Yes afaik. I think the arrangement is that Bill Doyle builds the stadium, leisure centre, cinema, retail etc in return for being given United Park.
I think he builds the road to help him when he decides to build housing, schools etc.

Drogheda United will then own a stadium that is multi purpose. They will also own the other areas which generate income seven days a week, 52 weeks a year. Whatever profit they make goes to running the football club and paying the directors back, I presume. Seems similar enough to what Tynan is talking about in Cork.

Of course we have to get the planning permission first, decision day is a couple of weeks and there are six objections.

[pete]

Yes afaik. I think the arrangement is that Bill Doyle builds the stadium, leisure centre, cinema, retail etc in return for being given United Park.

That is better but not sure if the numbers match up.

I believe the stadium supposed to cost about 10m but that does not include the extra facilities? United Park worth maybe 8m?

Even aside from the financial aspects who will run the extra facilities? Would seem to make sense to rent to third parties with the required expertise. Have these companies been lined up already.

I know the new owners of CCFC are attempting something similar (large stadium though) & I know if it was at planning permission stage City fans would have picked at every detail of the plans...

[Celdrog]

Can't answer any of the above Pete. I would doubt if United Park is worth €8M, maybe it is.
I am sure the club will get significant grants for the building of all this. I think the FAI have guaranteed us all th eU-21 matches.

[DmanDmythDledge]

I think the FAI have guaranteed us all th eU-21 matches.
I doubt that, they are usually spread around between a few different venues.

[pineapple stu]

Thanks Stu.
€386K = Millions of Euro.:confused: Looks like some people did well in college, some didn't.
You want to go back and read the bit where I specifically stated "Directors' loans not included"?


How much to UCD owe the revenue and your creditors?
How many eircom league clubs owe more than €250K?
Have the Drogs been given a winding up order a la Cork, Shels etc?
To the best of my knowledge -

1) Whatever the previous month's charge is. We, like all other clubs, had a Revenue audit recenly when the league was declared a high risk area following the Revenue's audit of Shels. We owed E1,600, which we paid. It was a balance we were aware of. We had a long standing agreement with Revenue whereby we paid PAYE one year in arrears. Other clubs had similar agreements. All this went out the window when the Shels case came to light, and we had to catch up. The E1,600 was the last of that amount. I don't know how much is owed to creditors, but I know we're solvent.

2) To Revenue, or in general? To Revenue, very few. To give some ideas from the most recent accounts I've bothered to get - Pat's E150k; Bray E15k; Cork E140k; Galway E20k; Kilkenny E1k; Rovers E15k; Waterford E60k. obviously, having the biggest bill in the league is going to leave you with the biggest PAYE bill in the league, but it's still very high. In general, it's irrelevant as Drogs owe far more than E250k.

3) No, but then again, Shels weren't given one until last year. However, as noted, you do have an existing Revenue agreement due to defaulting previous tax payments or else arising as a result of a Revenue audit. That's what screwed Shels over in the end. Just because a winding up petition hasn't come along doesn't mean everything's rosy.

[pete]

Moderator: Off Topic moved to rubbish. Apologies if your posts moved but I tried to be fair.

[mypost]

And how many teams would have the funds to buy our players? And how many would be willing? Seriously, you're clutching at straws now! We've absolutely nothing to lose compared to what we wouldve lost if the 3 amigos didnt get involved

Tis getting boring PS - seriously im not saying any more on it,give it a rest youre embarrassing yourself :rolleyes:

As i said come back and tell us ye told us so - and let us get on with it and see what happens :rolleyes:

That's what Shels did last year, now they know what happened.

Drogheda should know very well what they're getting into. The current owners saved the club from administration only a few years ago. But it seems that few lessons have been learned there since then.

[ColinR]

Only just got myself a copy of accounts - nothing unexpected inside


You could look it up yourself of course; good to see you take an interest in your club.

Revenue are owed E200k. There is currently a default repayment agreement being paid off, so Drogheda have been in trouble with Revenue recently. It's a 20-month agreement, where the normal is 10 months, which indicates a large amount.

Revenue are owed €211k. Prior year they were owed €279k. The revenue default is fully included in the €211k and the €279k - actually they indicate an error somewhere in the accounts - in 2005 a/cs, the Going Concern note indicates that the default amount is to be paid over two years - however the creditor greater than 1 year relates solely to the amounts owed to the parent company (as agreed to the related party note). Accordingly, we know that the PAYE creditor has decreased mainly through repayment of the Revenue payment plan, and with a wage bill as high as the club are suggested to be, it would appear to me most likely to be only two months PAYE - which a large % of businesses would owe at their year end, and the remaining payments based on the Revenue payment plan.


Creditors are owed E186k, up from E80k in 2005. No breakdown. Directors' loans not included.

There is no breakdown, but looking at the accounts, it is more than likely that a fair chunk is in relation to deferred transfer fees - if transfer fees are operated the same in Ireland, as in the UK, I would expect that the vast majority of that increase is due to transfer fees, and at least the club has acquired an 'asset' for the corresponding rise in a liability.




Problem is, Shels didn't have evident money problems for a long time before they surfaced rather dramatically in the last year or so. They only owed money to Kilkenny, but they didn't care. Same scenario here. The money will dry up, Drogheda will either continue to strive for the impossible (CL group qualification) and the cracks will start to appear, or they'll have to lose more than E1.25m off their budget, and end up also rans.

That is a very simplistic way of looking at this, and to be honest i would have expected a bit more. of course the spending is not sustainable at present - just as it wasn't at shels. it is not the clubs plans for the status quo to remain, and to keep spending, until the money dries up.

everyone knows the stadium is the make or break for the club. the stadium needs to be built and needs to generate sufficient extra finance for the club to allow the club to be self financing.



Why don't the directors want to commit their money to the club?

they have!!! have a look at the movement in net liabilities in the club, and then have a look at the movement in the P&L reserve - Club made a loss of €1,245k, liabilities have only risen by €134k.

You surely can see that the movement is the equity issued in lieu of the debt. The new debt that was built up was built up in the parent company via directors loans, which have also been coverted to equity

[pineapple stu]

they have!!! have a look at the movement in net liabilities in the club, and then have a look at the movement in the P&L reserve - Club made a loss of €1,245k, liabilities have only risen by €134k.
You were doing OK up to here.

The directors have not put their money into Hinge Trading Limited. The parent company has - this is disclosed in the note regarding new share issue after the year end. However, the directors have still only put their money in in the form of loans - just to a different company, but their still entitled to their money back from the group. That's the problem.

Don't know how deferred transfer fees would work, but licencing says you're not alloewd any outstanding transfer fees. Don't think Drogs paid anything near E200k transfer fees in the past year, would they?

Most companies would owe one month, not two months' PAYE, at any one time.

[ColinR]

You were doing OK up to here.

The directors have not put their money into Hinge Trading Limited. The parent company has - this is disclosed in the note regarding new share issue after the year end. However, the directors have still only put their money in in the form of loans - just to a different company, but their still entitled to their money back from the group. That's the problem.

yes, but if you do a company office search on the parent company, you will see that the directors loans in the parent company have also been transferred to equity, which is the key point you have missed. The most recent conversion of equity in the parent company took place on 14/02/07 (lodged in companies office 25/04) where the directors subscribed (effectively wrote off directors' loans) of €1.725m.

As you say the directors have not put their money into Hinge Trading direct, but if you had have searched further you should have noticed that they did put their money directly into the parent company.




Don't know how deferred transfer fees would work, but licencing says you're not alloewd any outstanding transfer fees. Don't think Drogs paid anything near E200k transfer fees in the past year, would they?

Again, I am not fully familiar with the licencensing document, but certainly in the UK it is common for clubs to defer transfer fees over a couple of years - i would imagine the licencsing would more likely prohibit 'overdue' transfer fees, which is a big difference. Also at a guess, I would imagine the club had transfer fees in the year of €145k - seeing as this amount is the addition to intangible assets. as the creditors figure has only risen by €106k, i would not be surprised if a good portion of the €106k is to do with transfer fees. also note that overdraft of €23.5k has fallen to nil, so a further amount could simply by due to delaying creditor payments to ensure no overdraft situation arises?



Most companies would owe one month, not two months' PAYE, at any one time.

most would owe one month - yes, but a good % of companies (and certainly a high % that i have seen) are one return behind, only submitting their P30s effectively two weeks late, leaving the final two months outstanding at the year end (if only for a couple of days). certainly two months paye is no disaster given the historical non compliance with the revenue within the league

[pete]

Maybe I should change the title of this thread to "My P&L is bigger than yours!" :eek::p

[pineapple stu]

yes, but if you do a company office search on the parent company, you will see that the directors loans in the parent company have also been transferred to equity, which is the key point you have missed. The most recent conversion of equity in the parent company took place on 14/02/07 (lodged in companies office 25/04) where the directors subscribed (effectively wrote off directors' loans) of €1.725m.
Interesting. Don't recall that being in their last accounts. Obviously haven't been checking daily for share conversions.



most would owe one month - yes, but a good % of companies (and certainly a high % that i have seen) are one return behind, only submitting their P30s effectively two weeks late
Only the badly run ones, in my experience. If you're regularly one return behind, you end up keeping on getting hit with interest from Revenue until you catch up.

Still unsure about your argument on the transfer fees. Possible, I suppose (I know you erfused to pay us a while back until we really hassled you about it; in fact had the cheek to ask for your first payment back), but I just don't see how it fits in with licencing. Other than the vague possibility that licencing is a sham, of course. But that's silly talk.