Drogheda Accounts

[Stato]

I'm expanding this discussion a little but I think it still fits under the heading of the thread.

The company operating as Drogheda United FC (Hinge Trading Limited) have just filed their accounts to October 2006. They show a loss for the year to 31st October 2006 of just under €1.25m!!! Total losses now stand at €2.66m.

Other interesting figures, they paid out €145,000 in transfer fees, issued €1.1m worth of new shares and include a note stating "The directors have considered the value of the current contracts and in their opinion these have a value of €1,240,000 (2005 €1,325,000).

If you want the details, go onto www.cro.ie and use a credit card to get a copy of them for €2.50.

Edit: The €1.1m shares were issued to its holding company, Drogheda United Football Club (O2) Limited to settle loans given by the holding company. The holding company's last set of accounts were to 31st December 2005 with the next set due into the CRO by the end of next month. At 31st December 2005 the following directors had given loans to the holding company; Eugene O'Connor (€467,492), Chris Byrne (€205,000) and Vincent Hoey (€342,092). No doubt those amounts are likely to have substantially increased since then.

[Celdrog]

That's great Stato - could you post up the Pat's and Bohs accounts now please. Thanks.

[Dodge]

That's great Stato - could you post up the Pat's and Bohs accounts now please. Thanks.

Pats accounts have been posted here before. Do a search for it

[Risteard]

I wouldn't have thought the directors input would be classified as loans. The other worrying aspect is that there was a similar debt already there and I would estimate that THIS years accounts would show a similar loss to these accounts.

On the plus side, there aren't any outstanding debts (apart from their own directors), the situation isn't nearly as bad as Shels was and their stadium is apparently going to get the go-ahead.

[pete]

They show a loss for the year to 31st October 2006 of just under €1.25m!!! Total losses now stand at €2.66m.


Expensive Setanta Cup & 4th place. :eek:

Must e pushing 4m loses by now & if anything wages would have increased with little increase in prize money or gate receipts.



"The directors have considered the value of the current contracts and in their opinion these have a value of €1,240,000 (2005 €1,325,000).


Laugh or Cry?



At 31st December 2005 the following directors had given loans to the holding company; Eugene O'Connor (€467,492), Chris Byrne (€205,000) and Vincent Hoey (€342,092).

This should be of concern to Drogs fans as this means as it stands no money has been gifted to the club & the Directors reserve the right to ask for that money back should they so wish. I personally do not like the practice of Directors giving personal loans to their company.

[Celdrog]

Thanks for the concerns lads.
However, knowing Vincent Hoey and Chris Byrne personally I would prefer them to be in charge of my club than an obscure investment fund with no link to my town or club. Now that is worrying - €30M investment in Cork City??

Because of the emotional attachment to the Drogs the three amigos may just be prepared to invest a couple of million to make it work and be prepared to gamble on losing it (Remember Vincent Hoey has been with the Drogs since the start. Chris Byrne for the last 10 years). An investment fund will demand a return on investment.

Planning permission for the new stadium was apparently granted last night. The plan is starting to fall into place and Arkaga seem to be looking at a similar model. How long to recoup €30M, how long to recoup €3M?

We have the squad, Cork need to pay serious money and wages to match it.

I think you will find the Drogs have less reasons to be worried than some other clubs.

[pineapple stu]

Because of the emotional attachment to the Drogs the three amigos may just be prepared to invest a couple of million to make it work and be prepared to gamble on losing it (Remember Vincent Hoey has been with the Drogs since the start. Chris Byrne for the last 10 years).
That's what Shels fans said about Ollie.



Planning permission for the new stadium was apparently granted last night.
Is there actually a single source for this? Your forum credits someone who heard someone say it was passed at a meeting last night, and someone else who heard it on the radio. If the first, I'd not listen to that (the poster had 15 posts, was only vaguely literate and of the type I'd just ignore straight off) and if the second, why isn't it anywhere else? There's nothing on the internet that I can see, including the official club site and the Meath County Council site, with the planning reference linked in on the Stadium Improvements thread.

[Risteard]

Maybe there should be a thread in EL for the rest of us to talk about this.

[pineapple stu]

I think we just need another thread about Cork's situation so Drogs fans don't try and divert the thread off topic.

[micls]

Planning permission for the new stadium was apparently granted last night. The plan is starting to fall into place and Arkaga seem to be looking at a similar model. How long to recoup €30M, how long to recoup €3M?

We have the squad, Cork need to pay serious money and wages to match it.

I think you will find the Drogs have less reasons to be worried than some other clubs.

But in fairness what do we have to lose? No ground, no tangible assets. Fans are looking to buy a small stake in the club-1-2%(Tynan seemed very open to the idea) and if it all goes wrong we're pretty much in the same situation we would have been had Arkaga not come in, part-time and just trying to survive.

I dont see what we have to lose, whereas ye have United Park

[Cosmo]

I dont see what we have to lose, whereas ye have United Park

No we don't - the FAI have United Park.

As for something to lose - if the directors didnt step in we'd be playing division one football regardless of what happened on the pitch cos of the state of united park

We have no assets. If the ground falls through (which hopefully it won't) and the directors decide its not worth pursueing an alternative their money is lost - no chance of getting it back. And theres no way they'll demand it back when they no theres no chance of getting any of it so im sure they wont put the club bust by pursueing it when they know yhe club has absolutely no assets)

thats the very worst case scenario in my eyes ie first division football cos of the ground.

Remember these 3 lads are self made millionaires - how many people on here had proper business models to make themselves self made millionaires? They're not stupid and because of the above i believe it'll happen.

Why are people so bitter? Why not give us a chance and see how it goes? If it all goes f***** up, come back and tell us ye told us so! Why not kjust let us get on with it? Its us that have to live with whatever happens. Its getting rather boring now to be honest

[pineapple stu]

If...the directors decide its not worth pursueing an alternative their money is lost - no chance of getting it back.
Interestingly, one of the Waterford directors (Ger O'Brien I think?) had a sizeable directors' loan with Waterford - E100k or so as I recall? - and one of the terms of his leaving was that the loan was to be repaid in full. This was in 2005, and Waterford had an immediate fire sale of players to save cash to pay O'Brien back.

One of the Waterford lads will confirm/correct the details I'm sure, but just because you can't pay is no reason that it can't be paid.

[Cosmo]

And how many teams would have the funds to buy our players? And how many would be willing? Seriously, you're clutching at straws now! We've absolutely nothing to lose compared to what we wouldve lost if the 3 amigos didnt get involved

Tis getting boring PS - seriously im not saying any more on it,give it a rest youre embarrassing yourself :rolleyes:

As i said come back and tell us ye told us so - and let us get on with it and see what happens :rolleyes:

[pineapple stu]

There's other ways of getting money than selling players. Waterford didn't make the money selling players, for example - they saved on wages and made a profit. So basically the directors would be perfectly entitled to claim their money back if they left (unless they were done for reckless trading or some such), in which case, Drogheda would have to cut about E2m off their expenses (allowing for subsequent loss of earnings with lower crowds, lower prize money, fewer games, etc).

[Cosmo]

There's other ways of getting money than selling players. Waterford didn't make the money selling players, for example - they saved on wages and made a profit. So basically the directors would be perfectly entitled to claim their money back if they left (unless they were done for reckless trading or some such), in which case, Drogheda would have to cut about E2m off their expenses (allowing for subsequent loss of earnings with lower crowds, lower prize money, fewer games, etc).


I dont care PS - i dont care what you or any opposing fan thinks! I've said my piece - worst case scenario of the above is no worse than what wouldve happened if the lads never got involved!

The self made millionaires are making a stab at moving the club forward! Hopefully they can do so in the professionalism that obviously made them self made millionaires! And I hope they at least recoup their money regardless of the outcome. End of discussion for me regardless of your response! :)

[pineapple stu]

End of discussion for me regardless of your response! :)
You've said that before though. ;)

One last question - what's the story with the ground? Planning approved or no news yet? I'd be surprised if it were on radio and not on any other media source, including the club website and the Council website.

[Tir Oilean]

Why are people so bitter? Why not give us a chance and see how it goes? If it all goes f***** up, come back and tell us ye told us so! Why not kjust let us get on with it? Its us that have to live with whatever happens. Its getting rather boring now to be honest

Cosmo, nearly 95% of people laughed at and slagged us off when Nick Leeson was appointed Commercial manager. Well we got on with it and more to the point Nick did too. We are very secure at the mo and all we need is to stay up! Never mind the begrudgers, if my club wasnt sustainable through sponsorship and viable as a business i'd prefer to have a few self made millionaire supporters backing it than an investment group looking for a return. We all know there is **** all return on investment in Irish football clubs.

[Cosmo]

You've said that before though. ;)

One last question - what's the story with the ground? Planning approved or no news yet? I'd be surprised if it were on radio and not on any other media source, including the club website and the Council website.

Tbh I dont know - I havent been talking to sanybody 'in the know' now for a few weeks! But i know the club have worked hard with Meath County Council before actually submitting it, so im hopeful enough

It said in todays star (and on tyhe local radio) that lastnight was the deadline for objections and none were received - however i thought i read somewhere when the application went in that the deadline was end of sept for objections and someone on our forum said that a little while ago too - so im not sure where that story has come from! Wouldve been great if true but i think weve a couple of more weeks to hold our breath!

[Tir Oilean]

There is no way there is planning for that development so soon. We were held up for an age to add the stand to an existing stadium!

[Cosmo]

Cosmo, nearly 95% of people laughed at and slagged us off when Nick Leeson was appointed Commercial manager. Well we got on with it and more to the point Nick did too. We are very secure at the mo and all we need is to stay up! Never mind the begrudgers, if my club wasnt sustainable through sponsorship and viable as a business i'd prefer to have a few self made millionaire supporters backing it than an investment group looking for a return. We all know there is **** all return on investment in Irish football clubs.


And a very improved ground ye have there too - looking forward to the trip over tomorrow - was great the last time :)

[Tir Oilean]

And a very improved ground ye have there too - looking forward to the trip over tomorrow - was great the last time :)

Foxes bar from 5pm is the place to be for pre match refreshments. They even threw on the champagne for our first home victory a few weeks back so were expecting more tomorrow night!!!!:D

[pete]

Feel free to open a topic on Cork City & Arkaga (i believe there is a thread already) but as stated above me have nothing to lose.

I remember the Waterford situation & that is why I believe it is reckless for Directors to approve a loan from themselves.

United Park = A
Drogs Debts (if they were donating the money they would not be deemed loans) = B

New stadium cost = C

Gap in money needed for new stadium C - (A-B) = ?

I would guess looking @ E10 -(E9-E4) = 5m?

[Cosmo]

Foxes bar from 5pm is the place to be for pre match refreshments. They even threw on the champagne for our first home victory a few weeks back so were expecting more tomorrow night!!!!:D

Yeah should make foxes - good spot :)

[DmanDmythDledge]

Is there actually a single source for this? Your forum credits someone who heard someone say it was passed at a meeting last night, and someone else who heard it on the radio. If the first, I'd not listen to that (the poster had 15 posts, was only vaguely literate and of the type I'd just ignore straight off) and if the second, why isn't it anywhere else? There's nothing on the internet that I can see, including the official club site and the Meath County Council site, with the planning reference linked in on the Stadium Improvements thread.
Whoever it was must have been telling lies...

Here is an article taken from the Meath Co. Co. web site. Thus far, there have been no objections to the application. The decision date, is set for 26/09/2007. However, even after a favourable decision is made, the planning process allows a further month for objections to the decision. So assuming the application is granted and runs it's course. Then I can't see why construction cannot start before year's end!

I honestly thought that some do-gooders would have thrown a spanner in the works. Any objections to a planning decision, will involve arbitration from An Bord Pleanala, but would be an expensive option for any with an objection. Usually when a local Co. Co. make a decision, then that's that. I'd say the application is very short odds on for a 'Permission Granted' stamp!



Search Planning Permission Applications
Planning Application: SA70455


View Persons Commenting On Application Previous Related Applications

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

File Number: SA70455 Received Date: 02/08/2007
Decision Due Date: 26/09/2007
Valid Application Date: 17/08/2007
Incompleted date: 01/01/1900 Withdrawn date:
Area: Duleek
Application Type: Permission Status: New Application
Comments: See file for full development description
Applicant Details

Applicant Name: Doyle Development Ltd Drogheda United Football Club
Applicant Address: John J.Farrelly,Eoghan Farrelly Neemats Ltd 90 Harcourt Street Dublin 2.
Agent Details(If Any)

Name: DECLAN BRASSIL
Address: LINCOLN HOUSE PHOENIX STREET SMITHFIELD DUBLIN 7
Proposed Development

Development Description: The development will consist of the following elements on a site area of
Development Address: Bryanstown Beymore Drogheda, Co Meath
Architect name: Mark Blake
Location key: Drogheda
Ded Ward Standard: St. Mary's - Part of
Details of Decision

Decision MO date: Decision MO Number:
Decision: Number of Conditions/Reasons:
Grant Date: Grant MO Number:
Expiry Date:
Site Location Details

Grid Northings: 0.0 Grid Eastings: 0.0
Site area: 13.77 Floor area:
No Of Units Being Developed: 0 Number of floors: 0
Sewerage type: 0 Water type:
Nat Grid Ref: Road number:
Os Map Ref Number: 2319-d 26381-b/ Map Regist Number:
Advertisement size: 0 Esb cable length: 0
Exempted fee indic:
Fire Certificate Details (If Applicable)

Fire Cert Required:
Fire cert date:
Fire cert number:
Commencement Details (Where Notified)

Dev Commence Ind/No: / Dev Commence Date:
Dev completion dat: Rec Commence Date:
Application Fee

Fee Due: €38000.0
Other Details

Control Officer: SM One off house: No
Significant Indicator: No Retension Indicator: No
Section 84 Indicator: Motion indicator: No
Site Inspect Reqd: No Urban Rewewal Ind:
Ext decision count:
Extend Agree Date:
Development code: n

[Risteard]

Application Fee

Fee Due: €38000.0
Other Details


Just for the application?:rolleyes:
That's crazy.

[GavinZac]

theres no way they'll demand it back when they no theres no chance of getting any of it so im sure they wont put the club bust by pursueing it when they know yhe club has absolutely no assets

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

excellent

you go on about them being great self made men, but they're going to just let ye off scot free with frittering away millions of their money for the sake of one devalued league title?

[galwayhoop]

Dman,

i know the following aren't your quotes but whose ever they are hasn't got a clue imo.


Any objections to a planning decision, will involve arbitration from An Bord Pleanala, but would be an expensive option for any with an objection.
not true. an objection is practically free for the objector but will usually cost those looking for the planning a bit more in fees to architects and consultants etc.
an bord pleannala are obliged to make a third party decision on the previous county/city council decision taking all information into account. there is no real burden on the objector barr his submission which is often just a single paragraph about why he doesn't like the building!!! a sad but true problem with our planning process.


Usually when a local Co. Co. make a decision, then that's that. I'd say the application is very short odds on for a 'Permission Granted' stamp!

nonsence. a massive proportion of decisions are appealed to an Bord Pleannala from individuals, applicants, an taisce and any amount of tree huggers you can think of. unfortunately there is no need for any legal or planning basis to their objections. another waste of resources in this country.

[ndrog]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

excellent

you go on about them being great self made men, but they're going to just let ye off scot free with frittering away millions of their money for the sake of one devalued league title?

devalued league title ? fcuk off ya priick

[GavinZac]

devalued league title ? fcuk off ya priick

er, no. enjoy winning The Worst League of The Century So Far TM

[John83]

Just for the application?:rolleyes:
That's crazy.
If you were asked to judge a massive development in terms of transport, electrical and other links, environmental impact and many other factors, each of them requiring tens of man-hours from experts, how much would you charge? It's not like they asked to put a second story over their garage.

[ndrog]

er, no. enjoy winning The Worst League of The Century So Far TM

we havent won anything yet ! and if we do win it , do you think we care about the standard of other teams .You play whats put in front of you , give me a break for gods sake .We have never won a title in our history .Devalued leauge .HA HA HA :D

[Risteard]

If you were asked to judge a massive development in terms of transport, electrical and other links, environmental impact and many other factors, each of them requiring tens of man-hours from experts, how much would you charge? It's not like they asked to put a second story over their garage.
A grand maybe.
Tens of man-hours?
38,000 is a large annual salary.

[OneRedArmy]

In fairness to Pineapple Stu and the rest of us naysayers, historically every time one club has said "this time, I guarantee it will be different" they have, in the best case scenario, ended up either back at square one or worst case, found themselves quickly out of business.

Arkaga's plan for Cork is so out of leftfield its unreal. If I was an investor I'd pull my money out. Surely investing in space tourism, nano-technology or possibly perpetual motion machines is a better financial bet than the EL?

As for Drogs, there's nothing to hide. The millionaires have publicly said they'll pull funding if they don't get planning. Spin the roulette wheel another time.....

[Dodge]

A grand maybe.

LOL. Good arhitect could earn that in an hour

[DvB]

LOL. Good arhitect could earn that in an hour

Eh, maybe two hours Dodge!:D

Just reading this thread now, its a real eye opener for me as to how alot of people see the planning process working, as someone who deals with it every day its something i just accept and deal with it as the seperate stages arise.

For examle on large projects (of a scale matching the DU proposal) it would normally be factored timewise for alot longer than the minimum time it takes to get a positive decision. One the application has been lodged & validated third parties have a period of 5 weeks to lodge an observation (basically these are objections, they changed the name to make it sound less aggressive) three weeks after that one of three things can happen, a decision to grant permission, a decision to refuse permission or far more likely on large scale projects a request for further information, given this is Meath County Council who i have experience of dealing with i'd be suprised if the latter option isnt the one issued. I'd base this on the fact that Meath has one of the poorest infrastructures in the country services wise (by their own admission) & every application i'm aware of is usually expected to get bogged down in service related issues. Anyway, once a request for F/I is recieved the applicant has six months to submit a response, from the date this is submitted the planning authority has 4 weeks to make a decision, this will be a decision to grant, a decision to efuse or in a minor amount of cases can request clarification of the further information, though may not ask for anything outside the scope of what was requested at the F/I stage.

Once the decision to grant/refuse has been issued, assuming in this case its a grant of PP, third parties have 4 weeks to lodge an appeal to An Bord Pleanala, although normally to appeal you are required to have lodged an observation in the original 5 week period, anyone who can show they have a case that they would be directly affected by the development is entitled to appeal irrelevant of whether they had lodged an observation or not. Once it goes to ABP dont expect a decision for at least 6 months IMO, smaller projects are taking that long & longer, though admittedly ABP are slowly but surely speeding up the process! So basically anyone expecting ths thing to sail through in a few weeks is blissfully ignorant of how these things have a nasty habit of going.

Even should a straight grant be issued with no appeals the lead in time for preperation of tender documents/ construction documents, fire safety certificate applications etc would be considerable, a factor that should be noted.

Koh

[Risteard]

LOL. Good arhitect could earn that in an hour
Well if it takes tens of hours, they should be earning 5s of thousands, certainly not 38,000.

It's criminal for a public office to be charging that for what is essentially their raison d'etre.

[John83]

A grand maybe.
Tens of man-hours?
38,000 is a large annual salary.
Have you even hired a consultant? I said tens in each category. That adds up to hundreds.

[Risteard]

Have you even hired a consultant?
No, what I post here is all my own opinion and judgment.
Ah, g'way the lot of ye!!
So is it actually the going rate in all councils?

[SunderlandBohs]

Because of the emotional attachment to the Drogs the three amigos may just be prepared to invest a couple of million to make it work and be prepared to gamble on losing it (Remember Vincent Hoey has been with the Drogs since the start. Chris Byrne for the last 10 years). An investment fund will demand a return on investment.

Just because the 'three amigos' have 'emotional attachment' doesn't mean the whole Drogheda Utd dream won't fall apart. No doubt they're committed to the cause & are Drogheda thru & thru. So was Ollie Byrne with Shels. We've seen this a hundred times before. Local bussiness man buys his local football club with hopes & dreams of winning trophies & been the best team in the land. How many times have we seen the local bussiness man & club fail & end up broke?

[SunderlandBohs]

Nobody wants on here wants to see another club go to the wall. People are just fed up with seeing clubs go bust in Ireland, north or south.

[John83]

Nobody wants on here wants to see another club go to the wall. People are just fed up with seeing clubs go bust in Ireland, north or south.
And fed up with the fact that even as a club goes to the wall, there always seems to be a few more lining up behind them.

[DvB]

So is it actually the going rate in all councils?

€38k is the maximum fee for a full planning application.

[Risteard]

What do you mean by full DvB?

[DvB]

What do you mean by full DvB?

There are four types of planning application that can be made, outline, full, retention and approval subsequent to the grant of outline permission.

All have a seperate maximum fee as they are usually broken down on a floor area basis, so for example if you had a massive building your fee based on a flat rate of €3.60 per sq/m could concievably be in excess of the 38k. The minimum fee for any application is €34 or in the case of a retention permission €102.

Anyway the maximum application fees are as follows:

Outline permission €28,500
Reduced fee (usually approval) €9,500
Retention permission €125,000
All other types (eg full PP) €38,000

[Celdrog]

Stu - How much do we owe to
a) The revenue
b) The players
c) Our creditors

How much of the value of United Park have we drawn down to fund the club on an ongoing basis?

Looking at your signature I don't think you are entitled to claim you are in an intelligent debate.

Telling a Drogs fan to get off the ehh... Drogheda forum is a bit rich. (This is a Drogheda United forum, is it not)

Why don't you debate the issue on the UCD forum with the other four UCD suppporters. Your fascination with our club is, quite frankly, embarrasing.

Maybe we should start a debate about the fact that the boss man of the college wants to take away the playing fields for accomodation and college buildings, thus affecting the UCD league and therefore affecting the EL team. How would you survive then?

At least our owners are interested in the success of the football team - yours are not.

[Schumi]

If you want to debate UCD issues I suggest you start a thread in the UCD forum. You'd probably find that we're interested in talking about issues that may affect our club.

[John83]

Stu - How much do we owe to ... Our creditors...
Millions of euro. Stu's explained it before. You don't want to read it. Hence his sig.

[Celdrog]

Millions of euro. Stu's explained it before. You don't want to read it. Hence his sig.
Our creditors, not our owners.
So who are the people we owe millions to?

If you are going to reply why don't you have a stab at the other questions I asked. It will prove there is significant difference between the Drogs business models and Shels. But then again you constantly choose to ignore this.

[John83]

...there is significant difference between the Drogs business models and Shels. But then again you constantly choose to ignore this.
The Drogs/Shels business model:

1. Spend more money than you have.
2. Win stuff.
3. ???
4. Profit!

[pineapple stu]

You could look it up yourself of course; good to see you take an interest in your club.

Revenue are owed E200k. There is currently a default repayment agreement being paid off, so Drogheda have been in trouble with Revenue recently. It's a 20-month agreement, where the normal is 10 months, which indicates a large amount.

Creditors are owed E186k, up from E80k in 2005. No breakdown. Directors' loans not included.

Problem is, Shels didn't have evident money problems for a long time before they surfaced rather dramatically in the last year or so. They only owed money to Kilkenny, but they didn't care. Same scenario here. The money will dry up, Drogheda will either continue to strive for the impossible (CL group qualification) and the cracks will start to appear, or they'll have to lose more than E1.25m off their budget, and end up also rans.

Why don't the directors want to commit their money to the club?