Shannon Airport Discussion

[OneRedArmy]

What a load of horsecrap.

The people in the West need a lesson in free market economics.

For 40 years after planes were able to fly non-stop from Dublin to the US we were forced to fly for 100 miles and scratch our holes for 90mins just to provide a load of well paid jobs in Shannon.

But the overreaction to the Aer Lingus decision is absolutely, positively ridiculous.

Taking the biscuit are the announcements by Dromoland Castle and Doonbeg that they are postponing E75m of investment because of this.

Analysing the figures, only one sixth of the passengers on the route are tourists, which equates to about 20 people on each plane, so 60 per day. Were they all going to stay in Dromoland and Doonbeg?:eek::confused:

As for the impact on business, its hard to argue it would have some impact, but listening to the local business community and representatives it would appear the whole economy of the West will disappear when these 3 flights go.

And finally, I'm loving the conspiracy theories behind the decision to move to Belfast. Despite the fact it was the privatisation of Aer Lingus that allowed this to happen, apparently it was the idea of Government and was a sop to Paisley and the price of peace in the North........:rolleyes:

[Macy]

This is the direct result of the privatisation of Aer Lingus. You can't privatise a state asset, and then expect it to work in the interests of anyone except it's shareholders (and to do otherwise is actually against company law). The Government could've invested in the airline, as shown by SIPTU in communications from the EU, and then we'd still have a strategic asset that could work for the good of the state. However, instead we have an other purely ideological privatisation that has left the country in a worst way, same as the whole eircom debacle continues to do with broadband.

The likes of Dromoland, Doonbeg and some the yank companies now see a handy get out clause that they were looking for - "it's not our fault, blame aer lingus". IBEC and the Chambers of Commerce were quite happy when privatisation was eroding the workers terms and conditions, but are now spitting the dummy when aer lingus makes a commercial decision effecting them, hypocritical untcs.

As for the move to Belfast, Paisley suggested he knew of this several weeks ago. I don't know whether it was a Government initiative, but if it wasn't it was an extremely clever play by Mannion. The Government can't possibly pressurise Aer Lingus to reverse the decision because of the reaction in the North, so he has them in a great catch 22 - force them to reverse the decision and potentially effect the peace process, let them do it and face hassle in the mid west.

Totally the responsibility of the Government for the silly Privatisation, despite lies by spoofers like Killeen that they couldn't have done anything about it while it was in state control. Where is Ahern on the issue, and more particularly Willie O'Dea - the man who delivers for Limerick? This decision is ultimately the Governments fault for the privatisation.

[dahamsta]

Some of the comments on the radio were comical. One lad suggested closing down Aer Lingus - he didn't elucidate on exactly how that was going to happen - and hand the entire industry over to Ryanair. And several people, including Sean Moncrief, ninnied at people that Aer Lingus isn't state-owned any more, donchaknow, kinda forgetting in the process that GOV.IE sits on the board and will have said their piece on this already. Interesting to note that they didn't have the balls to say it in public though.

There's talk of GOV.IE buying back into Eircom now, and giving away control of the MAN's in the process; this coming after the half-billion we gave back to NTR for the M50 toll road. Fianna Fail have come up with an entirely new way of flushing our hard-earned cash down the toilet: Sale And Buyback At Masked Robber Prices.

adam

[pete]

What a load of horsecrap.


Agreed. Some of the stuff coming from "public representatives" is laughable.

The last time I can through Shannon I had to sit in the plane for 30 minutes during the stop-over as we were not allowed off the plane. My suspicion was that because it was 6am the guy with the key was late for work.

Shannon Airport has growth of 11% this year on a par with Dublin. Cork has 4.5%. Shannon charges landing fee per passenger of E4 but Cork & Dublin charge E7.50. Why has Shannon not pursued more custom from other airlines? If they saying the London route is busy then other airlines will surely want to run it too? Shannon has huge advantages over say Cork with lower fees & long runway that can support transatlantic flights. Shannon should be marketing itself as alternative to Dublin as it has a large catchment area & most people outside Dublin would prefer to drive to Shannon than Dublin.

:rolleyes:

[John83]

This is the direct result of the privatisation of Aer Lingus. You can't privatise a state asset, and then expect it to work in the interests of anyone except it's shareholders (and to do otherwise is actually against company law). The Government could've invested in the airline, as shown by SIPTU in communications from the EU, and then we'd still have a strategic asset that could work for the good of the state. However, instead we have an other purely ideological privatisation that has left the country in a worst way, same as the whole eircom debacle continues to do with broadband.
That's it in a nutshell for me.

The only thing I can think of now is for the government to buy a Heathrow slot or two (maybe the ones Aer Lingus is renting out to third parties) and lease them to whoever is willing to do a Shannon-Heathrow run.

[OneRedArmy]

That's it in a nutshell for me.

The only thing I can think of now is for the government to buy a Heathrow slot or two (maybe the ones Aer Lingus is renting out to third parties) and lease them to whoever is willing to do a Shannon-Heathrow run.I'd prefer if my tax money:
a) wasn't spent owning and running airlines
b) wasn't spent artificially sustaining a relic from a bygone era (Shannon's status as large international airport).

An airport was built in Shannon when planes had to stop to refuel, not because there was any demand for anyone to get off. Every since that market disappeared it has been artificially supported.

Business travellers want to fly to Dublin, Belfast and Cork. Let the market decide.

City of Derry airport (it of sinking planes and generally unsafe practices fame) got hammered for providing illegal support to Ryanair a few years back, so I don't see why Shannon and Aer Lingus are any different.

[Macy]

I'd prefer if my tax money:
a) wasn't spent owning and running airlines.
It was actually profitable and earning money for the taxpayer at the time of the sale, but that's beside the point really. The one's crying, especially the FF back benchers just there on the news at one, are expecting a privatised business to act like a state asset. It can't be both, and it was the FF/PD Government that privatised it with the support of IBEC, ISME, IDA, et al. It's too late for them now to be turning up for meetings pretending they're putting it up to the Cabinet.

[OneRedArmy]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0810/aerlingus.html

Local business reps now considering legal action......funnily enough no basis for what grounds they plan to take legal action on in the article (breach of the universal "its just not fair" rule perhaps?).

All karma for the national disgrace than was the Shannon stopover.

[BohsPartisan]

The people in the West need a lesson in free market economics.


No, this is their lesson in Free Market Economics and what it means for people's lives.

[OneRedArmy]

No, this is their lesson in Free Market Economics and what it means for people's lives.Precious little is the answer.

On the list of things that is damaging Ireland's attractiveness to FDI (high wages, high costs etc.) this isn't even on the scale.

Its being used as a convenient excuse by the business and tourism sector, allowing them to ignore the real problems with our economy.

The victim mentality in the West is even worse than in the North as well.

[SolitudeRed]

On the list of things that is damaging Ireland's attractiveness to FDI (high wages, high costs etc.) this isn't even on the scale.


I think I read somewhere that the Aer Lingus workers at Belfast International (which is actually about 15 miles outside of Belfast!) will be paid less than Aer Lingus employees in the South!

[Lionel Ritchie]

I think I read somewhere that the Aer Lingus workers at Belfast International (which is actually about 15 miles outside of Belfast!) will be paid less than Aer Lingus employees in the South!

Hmmm ...I'm guessing you must be displaying another manifestation of the northern "victim mentality" ORA was referring to. ;)

[bennocelt]

the RTE reporter asked the FF local reps if they were willing to resign over this...............of course they werent,
but christ i was shocked at the question, didnt think anyone in RTe would ask a good question like that:)

didnt the people in Shannon ever hear about a free market economy?:rolleyes:

[Lim till i die]

The victim mentality in the West is even worse than in the North as well.

LMAO

The idea of a Northerner coming on giving out about the West being subsidised :D

[NeilMcD]

I'd prefer if my tax money:
a) wasn't spent owning and running airlines
b) wasn't spent artificially sustaining a relic from a bygone era (Shannon's status as large international airport).

An airport was built in Shannon when planes had to stop to refuel, not because there was any demand for anyone to get off. Every since that market disappeared it has been artificially supported.

Business travellers want to fly to Dublin, Belfast and Cork. Let the market decide.

City of Derry airport (it of sinking planes and generally unsafe practices fame) got hammered for providing illegal support to Ryanair a few years back, so I don't see why Shannon and Aer Lingus are any different.

Where do you pay your taxes.

[blackholesun]

If it cant stand on its two feet, let it rot! It has been subsidised and proped up via stopover joke for far too long.

FFS the hysteria on this issue is beyond belief, youd think the whole place was being closed down!

bhs

[Bald Student]

If the Belfast route is more profitable it's because more people want to travel on it. Capitalism and privatisation are serving the greater good where a state controlled enterprise would not have.

[OneRedArmy]

Where do you pay your taxes.To the Revenue Commissioners.

[NeilMcD]

Which ones.

[eamo1]

(hope i spelled that word right).anyway,i always thought that it makes better sense to extend the runway in cork for transatlantic flights and also possibly Galway airport where they are extending it for jets already-although only for jets to go to southern and central europe,not yet for transatlantic but i can always dream.

[dahamsta]

Which ones.This has nothing to do with the debate, get back on topic or don't comment any more.

[theworm2345]

I've flown into Shannon twice, I like it just fine, though I guess I'm not paying taxes to sustain it

[Lionel Ritchie]

(hope i spelled that word right).anyway,i always thought that it makes better sense to extend the runway in cork for transatlantic flights and also possibly Galway airport where they are extending it for jets already-although only for jets to go to southern and central europe,not yet for transatlantic but i can always dream.

It's different I'll give you that ...though if we're getting transatlantic flights to step down to smaller airports why not go the whole hog and move them to Knock? ...or Spiddal?

[OneRedArmy]

Which ones.There only is one Revenue Commissioners and I pay my tax to them.

Incidentally, presuming where your question is coming from, they are actually called HM Inland Revenue in the UK.

Back in your box.

[dahamsta]

OneRedArmy, how could you not get that when I told NeilMcD to stfu, it was time for you to stfu too?

Keep on-topic in this forum, all of ye, or ye'll be banned from here.

[Dodge]

Bit harsh? He was only clarifying it for him

Anyway back on topic... Is there some way we can blame the unions or possibly the civil service for this?

[Newryrep]

i think the 'uproar' is because the shannon heathrow route was supposedly profitable but just not profitable enough.

If Aer Lingus rent out slots to third parties for say X euros a year and they make less than X euros a year from shannon /heathrow you could see where they are comming from. however i would imagine it is commercially sensitive figures.

Then again if Airline B who is renting the slots pays X euros to Aer Lingus and still makes a profit why dont Aer Lingus fly the route and make a fortune ?

Personnaly i hate Heathrow with the only fond memories being when flying home for Xmax slightly inebriated

[Schumi]

If Aer Lingus rent out slots to third parties for say X euros a year and they make less than X euros a year from shannon /heathrow you could see where they are comming from. however i would imagine it is commercially sensitive figures.It's pretty unlikely that Aer Lingus are renting slots for less money than they could make using them themselves.

[OneRedArmy]

The load factors are actually fairly high on the Shannon-Heathrow route and are unlikely to be improved that much from Belfast (based on using the same A320 aircraft rather than the A321's they use on the Dublin-Heathrow route which is what I understand they plan to use).

Where the increased profits will be made is in the considerably lower costs incurred by being able to outsource pretty much everything in Belfast, something which the unions won't let them do in Shannon.

On the Heathrow slots issue, the reason they were included as a specific issue in the prospectus and the Govt retains a golden share is precisely because they are more valuable to other carriers to be used on long-haul routes.

[Dodge]

Where the increased profits will be made is in the considerably lower costs incurred by being able to outsource pretty much everything in Belfast, something which the unions won't let them do in Shannon.

I knew it...

[Lionel Ritchie]

i think the 'uproar' is because the shannon heathrow route was supposedly profitable but just not profitable enough.

I've heard that too. Between that and ORAs assertions that they'll be able to "outsource everything" in Belfast there's shades here of Irish Ferries moves to reflag and restaff their ships.

As Moore McDowell pointed out, during that dispute, in his inimitable deadpan not-my-problem style ...it's not about the route being highly profitable ...it's the extra 20-25% profitable it could be ...(if they'd only be allowed dump their workforce and pay misfortunes from Indonesia €1 an hour instead).

If either scenario is, as bald student seems to claim, "Capitalism serving the greater good" then it's as a temporary by-product of what capitalism does best -namely centralisation of amassed wealth.

[OneRedArmy]

I've heard that too. Between that and ORAs assertions that they'll be able to "outsource everything" in Belfast there's shades here of Irish Ferries moves to reflag and restaff their ships.

As Moore McDowell pointed out, during that dispute, in his inimitable deadpan not-my-problem style ...it's not about the route being highly profitable ...it's the extra 20-25% profitable it could be ...(if they'd only be allowed dump their workforce and pay misfortunes from Indonesia €1 an hour instead).

If either scenario is, as bald student seems to claim, "Capitalism serving the greater good" then it's as a temporary by-product of what capitalism does best -namely centralisation of amassed wealth.Whilst I accept the general point, in fairness Lionel there's a bit of a difference between "paying misfortunes from Indonesia €1 an hour" and paying Irish/British (lets not get into this one!) non-Unionised staff the Norn Ireland market rate for a particular job.

This won't be the last time jobs re-locate North of the border now that the peace looks like its holding and the cost base has gotten so high in the Republic.

As an (admittedly fairly ropey!)proxy, a sizeable number of the Derry City supporting regulars in Dublin who I would bump into at games have returned North as jobs have become a bit more plentiful up there combined with living prices, which despite the sharp increases in house prices recently, are still considerably lower than down here.

[OneRedArmy]

Latest news out appears to cast some doubt on motives behind the protests.

Shannon supporters are very cool on Cityjet launching a route to Paris (despite access to a hub airport being supposedly the core concern) and apparently Aer Lingus are preparing to release figures that contrary to the business lobby's figures last week, less than 25% of route users actually transferred onwards through Heathrow.

[reder]

Guys, can I ask, what was the original purpose of the Shannon stop-over? It makes little or no sense in my eyes to have Aer Lingus planes bound for the US stopping there.

Was it simply a dig out for the West?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Whilst I accept the general point, in fairness Lionel there's a bit of a difference between "paying misfortunes from Indonesia €1 an hour" and paying Irish/British (lets not get into this one!) non-Unionised staff the Norn Ireland market rate for a particular job.

Agreed ..an all fronts:D


Guys, can I ask, what was the original purpose of the Shannon stop-over? It makes little or no sense in my eyes to have Aer Lingus planes bound for the US stopping there.

Was it simply a dig out for the West?
I would Imagine it harked back to a day when commercial aircraft needed a refueling stop and then became a lumbering institution.

[dahamsta]

It was originally a necessity, because planes couldn't make it as far as Dublin/London/etc on a single fill. When the necessity disappeared, GOV.IE made it a requirement for planes crossing our airspace because... well, because it's the Oirish way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon_stopover

adam

[beautifulrock]

It's different I'll give you that ...though if we're getting transatlantic flights to step down to smaller airports why not go the whole hog and move them to Knock? ...or Spiddal?

Lionel you can fly to New York and Boston from Knock already.

[Dodge]

Lionel you can fly to New York and Boston from Knock already.

Not with a proper airline Due to the high number of complaints being received for this airline, Skytrax
are unable to guarantee that all of them will be published. (http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/flygspan.htm)

[beautifulrock]

Heard there was some issues early on, seems it has not improved that would be a pity as would take some pressure of Dublin Airport. Been to Knock a few times on short haul and is such a great airport. Quick in, quick out and you can get a decent bacon sanger, what more would you want :)

[Dodge]

In an airport? Nothing at all...

[John83]

There were a couple of interesting facts in an article by Coleman in the Tribune yesterday. I don't claim anything here, just stating them (from memory) for interest:

75% of the people on Shannon-Heathrow are going to England. These people may be served by other routes, e.g. Shannon-Dublin-Heathrow (revenge for the damned stop-over!), Cork-Heathrow, etc.

Shannon currently has flights to Frankfurt and Paris, two other highly connected airports, so the claim that it's going to be somehow cut off from the rest of the world is exaggerated.

[OneRedArmy]

75% of the people on Shannon-Heathrow are going to England. These people may be served by other routes, e.g. Shannon-Dublin-Heathrow (revenge for the damned stop-over!), Cork-Heathrow, etc.

Shannon currently has flights to Frankfurt and Paris, two other highly connected airports, so the claim that it's going to be somehow cut off from the rest of the world is exaggerated.The point being made re the 75% of users not connecting is that they can use the Ryanair flights to the other London airports.

The point on Paris and Frankfurt is somewhat of a red herring as they are, AFAIK, to the secondary airports of Paris Beavais and Frankfurt Hahn with Ryanair and therefore not suitable for connections.

[SolitudeRed]

Hmmm ...I'm guessing you must be displaying another manifestation of the northern "victim mentality" ORA was referring to. ;)

No was just making the point that this is all down to the sort free market economics espoused by Fianna Fail and if people don't like it then they should vote them out!

Also the Bank of Ireland recently created a load of jobs in Belfast instead of Dublin as the cost of living is cheaper up here and they can therefore get away with paying less in terms of wages!

[Newryrep]

The point being made re the 75% of users not connecting is that they can use the Ryanair flights to the other London airports.

The point on Paris and Frankfurt is somewhat of a red herring as they are, AFAIK, to the secondary airports of Paris Beavais and Frankfurt Hahn with Ryanair and therefore not suitable for connections.

Not according to Ryanair website,

[Lionel Ritchie]

No was just making the point that this is all down to the sort free market economics espoused by Fianna Fail and if people don't like it then they should vote them out!

Also the Bank of Ireland recently created a load of jobs in Belfast instead of Dublin as the cost of living is cheaper up here and they can therefore get away with paying less in terms of wages!

I know and agree. We need a "tongue in cheek" emoticon on here. :D


Not according to Ryanair website,

Well this is of course the company that have been censured for billing an airport/deserted flying club with portacabin in southern Sweden as "Copenhagen".

[DonO'Bate]

Perhaps the Russian or US military might be persuaded to invest again in Shannon Airport? Aer Lingus wont be the only airline to pull out of Shannon. Continental Airlines are moving their service Newark service to Dublin next year with the advent of the open skies policy. Loss of transatlantic flights are more important than the loss of Heathrow flights. RyanAir have chopped some of their flights out of Shannon so why can't Aer Lingus do likewise?

[Newryrep]

I

Well this is of course the company that have been censured for billing an airport/deserted flying club with portacabin in southern Sweden as "Copenhagen".

So they do fly from shannon to Frankfurt Hahn but are just not telling anybody :)

Ryanair get slagged off frequently to for this but it can work both ways - see Bratislava thread. the info is all there on the airports they fly to provided by them or other sources and how to get to/from the airports. If people are too lazy/stupid (delete as necessary)to do the research i have damn all sympathy. Has anybody ever arrived at Franfurt hahn expecting it to be the internation airport and not an ex USAF base ?

[gael353]

Look mate I’m not going to get into a slugging match with you as I love the city of Derry but I do want to point out some facts to you. First up I find it bizarre of you a Derry person to slag off something which is unique not to me but to your city. During the troubles of the 1970s thousands of Derry and Belfast people came to live and work in Shannon as it had thousands of jobs, due to the American and Irish companies set up there around the airport. Thousands of persons living in Shannon and the surrounding city of Limerick and towns of Ennis are all from…Derry! So you see there are quite a few Derry people in Shannon and the mid west in those high paid jobs you talk about and yes maybe scratching their collective holes! While certain airports along the west coast (and with a local TD in its constituency) have a thing called subvention, now this is a government help fund but it goes to small airports like Galway, Kerry Knock and Sligo. This makes it profitable for an airline to operate out of these small airports as the Government picks up the bulk of the cost of the flights. A €29:99 flights out of Galway airport might in fact be costing the tax payer over €200. Shannon is not one of these airports which receive large subventions.

Now I hate pointing this out to persons living in the north but the piece of land you are living on is propped up by some £3 billion in “grants” from the British exchequer…yearly. The largest employer in Northern Ireland is the British government and the largest private investment comes in the form of 3,000 jobs from….Tesco. In my city Limerick, one factory alone (Dell) employees over 3,000 people, its supplier factories in the region another 3,000 and yes they will pull out within the next year as the Irish republican government continues to give our assets to a foreign jurisdiction that is Northern Ireland.

In your opening post on this issue, and remember the issue is the future repositioning of Aer lingus service serving Shannon airport in the west of the republic of Ireland and Heathrow airport in London, to a British island to serve the British public in two of its principle cities. But you didn’t mention that and instead side tracked on a different issue all together, that of the old stopover which was watered down some years ago and beyond March 2008 will be gone forever (as will probably all Aer Lingus flights from Shannon and the west of Ireland)

The timing of the announcement can also be seen as very politically played as most of the big business CEOs are on holiday at this time of the year and when they return in the coming weeks and find their flights to hubs removed, the original outbursts (overreaction is what you call it) will have died down and thus weakening the Wests response to the issue. There are in fact four (4) Aer Lingus flights Shannon to Heathrow daily not three (3) as you stated and the load capacity is 90% which is quite good for any airline.

You try to dismiss any defence of the Shannon lobby as “conspiracy theory,” now I don’t believe that there is any conspiracy theory I simply believe that Bertie promised in the peace agreement €790 million of grant aid to Northern Ireland and the moving of these state assets/flights to Belfast Internationl/Aldergrove is part of that agreement to go with the already mentioned £3 billion in grant aid from the British government. Its politics, but not something to throw your eyes up at as you do.

You then in your next post go back to the Atlantic route and go on about the stop over…again, before stating that “business travelers want to fly to Dublin, Belfast and Cork,” as obviously there are no business in the west of Ireland is that what your saying? Oh sorry your talking about North American business class is it? I think the issue is of Irish business class in the west wanting to get to the rest of the world to sell their wares.

Next up you compare Londonderry airport in the UK to Shannon but the issue there isn’t a fare one, as Shannon was in no way capable of offering what Londonderry offered (to Ryanair) but it can now as it is no longer run by the Government.

Your points about how costs effective Belfast will be are very valid but so too are some of the replies of some posters linking it with similarities of the Irish Ferries debacle.


The UK is Irelands largest importer of our products and by this all of Ireland should have economical links to the markets in the UK. However this idea of token Government representative Noel Dempsey, of using a new hub in Paris via Cityjet is a deflection device on the issue and I for one won’t be swallowing it. I see the merits of the Paris route but would you really want a business to remove itself of its biggest export market?


I’m delighted that Northern Ireland is getting further economic aid and from a foreign government, but I fail to see why it (Irish Gov) is doing nothing to support its own.

The issue by the way is the termination of the Shannon – Heathrow link and is not as you have led some posters (through their responses) the issue of the old Shannon stopover. If I may compare, if I may be so bold to, your views would be similar to talking about the upgrade of the N7 between Dublin and Limerick (the Nass section) while side tracking talking about the stopover at Borris on Ossary (Also known as Borris un necessary)

If I take the Shannon stopover out of your posts I’m also taking the liberty here in removing your word “artificial” but I will say that in Aer Lingus moving to a new UK hub in Belfast, (where they have been and previously and pulled out twice previously) they are moving the route to a sub vented economy so your initial post doesn’t stand up.

But do please keep the Aer Lingus side ticking over as it is making interesting reading. I shall enjoy showing my many Derry friends in Shannon how a fellow Derry man feels about them possibly/probably losing their jobs.

[pete]

The mass hysteria & political opportunism is pathetic & "the West" would want to look asking why they so reliant on Aer Lingus & Ryanair.

You can get this information on the various Airport web sites but the airport charges per passenger are as follows
* Shannon E4
* Dublin & Cork approx E7.50

Shannon & Dublin grew by 11% this year but Cork by only 4.5%. If anyone is being shafted it is Cork Airport. There is no wonder Cork cannot get new business if it is charging the same as Dublin which has probably 5 times the catchment area.

:rolleyes:

[Burny89]

The pilots for Aer Lingus are now threatening to strike over the fact that Pilots based in Northern Ireland won't get paid the same as those from the south.