View Full Version : Shannon Airport Discussion
OneRedArmy
14/08/2007, 6:42 AM
Look mate I’m not going to get into a slugging match with you as I love the city of Derry but I do want to point out some facts to you. First up I find it bizarre of you a Derry person to slag off something which is unique not to me but to your city. During the troubles of the 1970s thousands of Derry and Belfast people came to live and work in Shannon as it had thousands of jobs, due to the American and Irish companies set up there around the airport. Thousands of persons living in Shannon and the surrounding city of Limerick and towns of Ennis are all from…Derry! Back this up or retract it. Personally, I think its highly unlikely.
Now I hate pointing this out to persons living in the north but the piece of land you are living on is propped up by some £3 billion in “grants” from the British exchequer…yearly. I live in Dublin.
In my city Limerick, one factory alone (Dell) employees over 3,000 people, its supplier factories in the region another 3,000 and yes they will pull out within the next year as the Irish republican government continues to give our assets to a foreign jurisdiction that is Northern Ireland.Horse****. Dell will pull out because bolting computers together, which is a labour intensive activity, makes zero sese in a high cost country like Ireland. The jobs will move to a developing nation (ie not Northern Ireland).
As for "giving" assets away, Aer Lingus was privatised, for which the Government collected a lot of money. The assets are owned by the shareholders (Govt is a minority shareholder).
You try to dismiss any defence of the Shannon lobby as “conspiracy theory,” now I don’t believe that there is any conspiracy theory I simply believe that Bertie promised in the peace agreement €790 million of grant aid to Northern Ireland and the moving of these state assets/flights to Belfast Internationl/Aldergrove is part of that agreement to go with the already mentioned £3 billion in grant aid from the British government. Its politics, but not something to throw your eyes up at as you do.
Again, did you miss the privatisation of Aer Lingus?
Next up you compare Londonderry airport in the UK to Shannon but the issue there isn’t a fare one, as Shannon was in no way capable of offering what Londonderry offered (to Ryanair) but it can now as it is no longer run by the Government.Shannon Airport is now owned by Dublin Airport and has made no movement towards being a free standing entity as it is commercially unviable in its present structure.
The UK is Irelands largest importer of our products and by this all of Ireland should have economical links to the markets in the UK. However this idea of token Government representative Noel Dempsey, of using a new hub in Paris via Cityjet is a deflection device on the issue and I for one won’t be swallowing it. I see the merits of the Paris route but would you really want a business to remove itself of its biggest export market?Fair point, so why not use any of the Ryanair services that serve the other London airports?
I’m delighted that Northern Ireland is getting further economic aid and from a foreign government, but I fail to see why it (Irish Gov) is doing nothing to support its own. Still not heard of the privatisation?
I shall enjoy showing my many Derry friends in Shannon how a fellow Derry man feels about them possibly/probably losing their jobs.Oh for the love of Christ, welcome to the real world.....
Lionel Ritchie
14/08/2007, 7:28 AM
So they do fly from shannon to Frankfurt Hahn but are just not telling anybody :).... Has anybody ever arrived at Franfurt hahn expecting it to be the internation airport and not an ex USAF base ?
I believe the point is that Frankfurt Hahn, Paris Beauvais, London Stansted etc are only useful at all for point to point flying. Scarcely for transfering.
Originally Posted by gael353:
The UK is Irelands largest importer of our products and by this all of Ireland should have economical links to the markets in the UK. However this idea of token Government representative Noel Dempsey, of using a new hub in Paris via Cityjet is a deflection device on the issue and I for one won’t be swallowing it. I see the merits of the Paris route but would you really want a business to remove itself of its biggest export market?
Fair point, so why not use any of the Ryanair services that serve the other London airports?
See answer above.
Also ORA -and this is just anecdotal as I don't have stats -a quick gander at the electoral register (or phone book) for the Shannon Town region will confirm a plethora of surnames that would not be considered local to the region but would be ten-a-penny in the Derry, Fermanagh, Donegal neck of the woods.
OneRedArmy
14/08/2007, 7:33 AM
Also you seem to think the Shannon stopover is somehow not relevant to whats going on now.
I'm not surprised you want to gloss over it, as the whole episode, from the Goverments acquiescence to the Shannon lobby's ridicoluous fight to maintain it into the 90's and the latter years would do a Communist state proud.
It is very relevant because this shows the mindset of the people involved. These same people that are up in arms today saw no problem in forcing the rest of Ireland to land and buy some duty free for 40 years, just to protect their own interests. Therefore, given they cried wolf before, they immediately lose a lot of credibility when they start the same over-hyping of the Heathrow flights.
I see you haven't addressed the 25% figure in relation to interconnecting passengers at Heathrow (less than 100 per day).
The whole thing is a red herring and the real problem (and the real reason FDI will leave) is due to the cost base of the country.
OneRedArmy
14/08/2007, 7:36 AM
Also ORA -and this is just anecdotal as I don't have stats -a quick gander at the electoral register (or phone book) for the Shannon Town region will confirm a plethora of surnames that would not be considered local to the region but would be ten-a-penny in the Derry, Fermanagh, Donegal neck of the woods.I'm not doubting that but to say that thousands of people left Derry for Shannon in the 70's, when the poplulation of Derry was c60,000, is stretching it somewhat and defies credibility.
Its an irrelevant point in any case. Just because I'm from Derry I'm somehow supposed to support anyone with a victim mentality/handout culture :eek::confused:
It all still goes back to the Privatisation, something that Willie O'Dea, Tony Killeen, all FF TD's that voted for it and frankly anyone who voted FF/PD (and ultimately Green) has to take responsibility for. Just as the thick electorate don't connect our telecoms infrastructure debacle with the eircom privatisation, they didn't with aer lingus and the health services either. And no doubt they'll forget again when it comes to the esb and whoever's next.
Re: The Pilots - Mannion is showing his true colours. Blatant race to the bottom policies being introduced now. Belfast today, eastern europe tomorrow, far east next. If you don't think it'll happen, look at what happened in the merchant fleets around the world. Aer Lingus following the same policy.
onceahoop
14/08/2007, 11:41 AM
Shannon Airport is now owned by Dublin Airport and has made no movement towards being a free standing entity as it is commercially unviable in its present structure......
I thought the Government split the airports into 3 seperate entities Shannon airport authority, Cork Airport Authority and Dublin Airport Authority. At least that was the intention under the State Airport Acts 2004 which transferred much of the the dayy to day running of the airports to the the local management
Brilliant, Ryanair have called an Aer Lingus EGM, saying they'll vote with the Government to save the Shannon routes, or abstain which would give the Government and the ESOT a majority. I really hate Mick O'Leary, but it's great to see the snarling privateer rottweiler turn on it's owner... :D
John83
14/08/2007, 11:46 AM
Brilliant, Ryanair have called an Aer Lingus EGM, saying they'll vote with the Government to save the Shannon routes, or abstain which would give the Government and the ESOT a majority. I really hate Mick O'Leary, but it's great to see the snarling privateer rottweiler turn on it's owner... :D
More importantly, "In the event that Aer Lingus sticks to its decision... Ryanair said it would be willing to launch a fourth daily flight to London Stansted, a second daily flight to London Gatwick and a daily flight to London Luton if Aer Lingus pulls its London services from Shannon." [source (http://www.hemscott.com/news/latest-news/item.do?newsId=48500918400268)]
Lionel Ritchie
14/08/2007, 12:07 PM
Michael O'Leary, Ryanair's chief executive said in a statement: 'Aer Lingus's rules confirm that any 10 pct shareholder can ask for an EGM to be called. It is surprising that neither the government nor the trade unions, both of whom own over 10 pct, have taken up Ryanair's previous offer to work together or called for an EGM to be held.
...because they don't want to be included in the thesaurus as examples next to the term 'Faustian Pact' I'm guessing.
onceahoop
14/08/2007, 12:14 PM
Ryanairs move puts it up to the Government. Sitting on its hands saying it cant interfere with a commercial decision is a cop out. It has a right to protect the livelihoods of its citizens. There is a stated threat to jobs both in industry and tourism. I thought it maintained the 25% stake so it could act as a watchdog. It seems to have fallen asleep on this one.
Moderator Warning - No more Off Topic rubbish on north v south.
Aer Lingus are paying standard wages to their future Belfast hub staff. Just because this is lower than those at Shannon does not make it a 'race to the bottom'.
Its hilarious to read Willie O'Dea oppose the Aer Lingus decision. He is a cabinet Minister who presumably supported the sale of the company. Of course like any good FF-er he does not feel strongly enough to resign from government. To accompany this the government is still the largest Aer Lingus shareholder.
:rolleyes:
Newryrep
14/08/2007, 12:26 PM
I believe the point is that Frankfurt Hahn, Paris Beauvais, London Stansted etc are only useful at all for point to point flying. Scarcely for transfering.
I disagree to a certain extent, and anyway who flies from shannon to Frankfurt and which Frankfurt is it ?
Frankfurt Hahn is probably only usefull point to point
Paris Beauvais - no idea
London Stansted - handy for Ryanair connections but could be viewed as a European hub, same as Luton.
If the issue with Heathrow is because its in the UK then services to the the 4 other 'London' airports Gatwick,Stansted, City and Luton should minimise it.
If the issue with Heathrow is because it is a world hub then a service to Paris CDG or Frankfurt Int should minimise it.
OneRedArmy
14/08/2007, 12:27 PM
I thought the Government split the airports into 3 seperate entities Shannon airport authority, Cork Airport Authority and Dublin Airport Authority. At least that was the intention under the State Airport Acts 2004 which transferred much of the the dayy to day running of the airports to the the local managementIt did.
But Cork don't want to be saddled with the debt of the new terminal there and Shannon isn't viable as a standalone entity so they are now under the control of the DAA with no firm date for separation.
Newryrep
14/08/2007, 12:33 PM
Next up you compare Londonderry airport in the UK to Shannon but the issue there isn’t a fare one, as Shannon was in no way capable of offering what Londonderry offered (to Ryanair) but it can now as it is no longer run by the Government.
Could Aer Lingus not switch from Shannon/London Heathrow to Shannon/Londonderry and keep everybody happy :)
It did.
But Cork don't want to be saddled with the debt of the new terminal there and Shannon isn't viable as a standalone entity so they are now under the control of the DAA with no firm date for separation.
If Shannon is not a viable standalone entity, whats the point in having the damn thing? Cant believe Cork want a brand new terminal built at no cost to themselves. Was is promised by the government?
I Cant believe Cork want a brand new terminal built at no cost to themselves. Was is promised by the government?
I believe the government promised that Cork Airport would do its own way Independently of any debt for the new Terminal so effectively Yes a free new Terminal.
Cork Airport redevelopment even included an upgraded approach road to dual carraigeway when there would never be enough traffic to justify. The Terminal has a capacity of 3m but current usage is about 1.6m & growth at 4.5%.
I approved of the privatisation of AL. However the airports should be kept in state control (they are a bit like the infrastructure of flight) but run separately so that discounts can be offered to all airlines to encourage competition.
dahamsta
14/08/2007, 1:37 PM
Yet they still haven't figured out skyways up there. :rolleyes:
Yet they still haven't figured out skyways up there. :rolleyes:
Cork Airport i presume?
Airports charge rent for the skyways (air-bridges) per 15 minute period which I believe is why they are not used.
OneRedArmy
14/08/2007, 2:50 PM
Cork Airport i presume?
Airports charge rent for the skyways (air-bridges) per 15 minute period which I believe is why they are not used.O'Leary also reckons he saves 10mins on each turnaround by not needing to attach the airbridge and by people boarding through stairs at the back door.
Another reason I don't like Ryanair.....
O'Leary also reckons he saves 10mins on each turnaround by not needing to attach the airbridge and by people boarding through stairs at the back door.
Another reason I don't like Ryanair.....
The Dublin Airport Charges (http://www.dublinairport.com/about-us/airport_charges.html) are constructed in such a way as to encourage airlines to remain on the ground for as short as possible time.
Moderator Warning - No more Off Topic rubbish on north v south.
Aer Lingus are paying standard wages to their future Belfast hub staff. Just because this is lower than those at Shannon does not make it a 'race to the bottom'.
No way should this be a MOD warning. Standard wages me hole, the main reason for going is to cut costs, and give pilots less rights.
Shocking use of Mod privileges Pete
gael353
14/08/2007, 11:44 PM
No way should this be a MOD warning. Standard wages me hole, the main reason for going is to cut costs, and give pilots less rights.
Shocking use of Mod privileges Pete
only have a second on the net tonight and im with you on this one dodge. Pete your entitled to your opinion and you freely give it but you cant restrict others from voicing theirs.
No way should this be a MOD warning. Standard wages me hole, the main reason for going is to cut costs, and give pilots less rights.
Shocking use of Mod privileges Pete
Just to be clear I meant no more talk on the north v south politics above, migration trends & other off topic rubbish.
My comment on the wages was a separate issue.
dahamsta
15/08/2007, 11:29 AM
Seemed pretty clear to me, given that it specifically mentioned that.
OneRedArmy
15/08/2007, 12:37 PM
The North v South wage difference is extremely relevant. Wages are lower in Norn Ireland as it is a lower cost economy, so purchasing power parity is lower.
However, the pilots presumably see employing new pilots in Belfast on less money as very much the thin end of the wedge and a first step to employing a lot more non-RoI pilots and are protecting their own, as they always have done. No real surprises.
From memory the pilots are also significant shareholders (separate to any general employee shareholding) so the whole thing could get very messy/interesting.
As Macy and others have pointed out above, something like this was always going to happen after the privatisation.
Another example of FF having absolutely zero foresight.
However, the pilots presumably see employing new pilots in Belfast on less money as very much the thin end of the wedge and a first step to employing a lot more non-RoI pilots and are protecting their own, as they always have done. No real surprises.
And totally fair enough, given what's happened in the last transport infrastructure sell off by an FF/PD Government, B&I.
onceahoop
15/08/2007, 12:50 PM
Saw the SIPTU rep on news last night saying they wouldn't allow workers in Belfast to do the jobs for less than workers in Shannon were getting. Can't see that sticking. The pilots rep made a peculiar statement. He said Belfast based pilots would have to resign their present positions and rejoin under new conditions. I know a few lads from the north flying for Aer Lingus and there's no way they'll buy that. This whole union thing is symtomatic of the bad feeling that is running through the whole Aer Lingus work force and their complete mistrust of management. Kieran Mulvey of the Labout relations commission said on Morning Ireland that both sides had backed themselves into a corner. Personally I think Mannion is a bit of a Union buster. Interesting times ahead.
OneRedArmy
15/08/2007, 12:57 PM
And totally fair enough, given what's happened in the last transport infrastructure sell off by an FF/PD Government, B&I.Dunno Macy, I can't say I've a huge amount of sympathy for a group of people earning six figure packages complaining about other people earning slightly smaller six figure packages.
According to an article in the Irish Times today the starting pay for Captains and First Officers in Belfast will be slightly higher than it is for Dublin based pilots. They haven't decided on the higher scale rate yet.
It seems to me the main difference will be that Belfast based pilots will not be part of a Defined Benefit pension scheme but rather a Defined Contribution scheme. I can't see the problem with this. This is the standard throughout private industry nowadays. Very few companies outside the state sector operate defined benefit schemes anymore.
Dunno Macy, I can't say I've a huge amount of sympathy for a group of people earning six figure packages complaining about other people earning slightly smaller six figure packages.
But that's just falling for Mannion's tatics. 6 figure salary pilots today, bottom of the scale baggage handlers/ check in staff tomorrow, where the figures won't be as easy to justify in the press. But if the Unions concede for pilots, it'll set the precedent.
Dotsy, If it really was a better package then Aer Lingus would've had no problem saying so yesterday. Every interview where they were asked did the pay match, they avoided answering by saying it'd be competitive in the local market.
onceahoop, Aer Lingus management cannot be trusted - look how many agreements they've attempted to run roughshod since privatisation. Even the latest pilots dispute is because of Mannion going back on his own agreements.
OneRedArmy
15/08/2007, 2:01 PM
Macy if it does boil down to pensions then frankly I've less sympathy. Any firm that is forced to keep a defined benefit scheme open may as well shut down now.
Defined benefit schemes are a thing of the past and anyone with any experience of pensions will tell you the same.
If it was only over the pension scheme, then why couldn't Aer Lingus simply say that they pay rates are the same? Couldn't be because they're not?
It is off topic, but it's funny how defined benefit schemes don't make sense economically for the ordinary worker, but all the managers and directors still get them. Defined benefit schemes have only got into trouble in the past because of companies raiding them or failing to increase contributions in line with liability (with the help of Governments failing to put in necessary protections). Companies want to ditch them so they can reduce their contributions to schemes - just another tool to make money rather than there being anything intrinsically wrong with them. Amazing how it works - companies mismanage the pension scheme, get many of them in trouble with insufficient funds, then plead the case that they're not economical and everyone simply buys that as a fact.
OneRedArmy
15/08/2007, 3:56 PM
It is off topic, but it's funny how defined benefit schemes don't make sense economically for the ordinary worker, but all the managers and directors still get them. Defined benefit schemes have only got into trouble in the past because of companies raiding them or failing to increase contributions in line with liability (with the help of Governments failing to put in necessary protections). Companies want to ditch them so they can reduce their contributions to schemes - just another tool to make money rather than there being anything intrinsically wrong with them. Amazing how it works - companies mismanage the pension scheme, get many of them in trouble with insufficient funds, then plead the case that they're not economical and everyone simply buys that as a fact.Macy, not a particularly balanced view!!
Managers and Directors tend not to get defined benefit schemes nowadays as well. In any case pension funds are now capped for the very senior execs so it makes less sense to have them for the top bods.
The reason they have fallen out of favour is partly for the reasons you mentioned (payment holidays in periods of high return, for which the actuarial profession needs to hang its head for not speaking out against) but more realistically because a company bears the full risk in a defined benefit scheme and this is untenable in a capitalist economy.
When pensions were first in vogue workers lived, on average, less than 5 years after retirement, if they made it to retirement age. Now that figure is 15 years and growing fast. So a pension has to be funded for three times as long, adding in the performance risk of the investment.
By all means question capitalism, but going forward investors will not buy shares in companies with defined benefit schemes, as the company is bearing too much risk. Some of the pension deficits of older established companies are absolutely huge and will grow going forward.
These companies could probably afford to keep defined benefit schemes, just about, but their profits would all but disappear. And capitalism doesn't like disappearing profits!
Obviously Aer Lingus moving from a semi-state to a listed company makes the pension issue absolutely critical.
Defined Benefit Schemes are like it or not a thing of the past. Employers & the State won't fund so would effectively mean current workers paying for retirees.
One of the few benefits of defined contributions is you buy into a fund so employers have no access to this so cannot raid.
The Aer Lingus unions were very quiet about the move to Belfast until the moaning picked up in Limerick & Clare. I sense a divide between pilots & orinary staffers.
I have zero sympathy for AL staff as they have already received shares in the private company. Why they were entitled to any shares in a company the tax payer (the rest of us owned).
Slightly off topic but Shannon Airport catering staff recent received E100k each to move jobs to a private company. Even the staff that stayed working for the airport received E16k just to do job they already doing. I wonder why the airport is strapped for cash...
Lionel Ritchie
16/08/2007, 7:28 AM
Just listening on Morning Ireland, to some FFers from Co. Clare who had a meeting in Ennis last night. They're "outraged". That's it ...that's all. Oh... and they want "action" (don't we all ;) )
Couldn't even bring themselves to forward so much as an empty threat to resign their seats, break away as some quasi-Independent rump... Nothing. More hot air than when Richard Branson goes flying.
But the mid west region is well served by their FF reps because they're "outraged".
But the mid west region is well served by their FF reps because they're "outraged".
But Willie O'Dea will probably still get multiple quota's...
Reported again on the front page of the IT today that Aer Lingus have said the pay at the starting grade in Belfast will be better than in Dublin. The difference at the start will be the pension issue and Belfast pilots will have new and more flexible working practises.
I don't see why there is an issue here. Companies pay local workers a wage depending on the wage norms in that country. Pilots in Belfast are only going to apply if the wages on offer (right up the pay scale) are competive based on what the average wage is in NI. No company is going to pay workers a wage by reference to what they pay in another economy. Local conditions are always a defining factor in setting wage levels.
As other people have said defined benefit pension schemes are a thing of the past. I am in senior management in the company I work for and no one gets a defined benefit scheme here (unfortunately).
Reported again on the front page of the IT today that Aer Lingus have said the pay at the starting grade in Belfast will be better than in Dublin. The difference at the start will be the pension issue and Belfast pilots will have new and more flexible working practises..
The clues are "starting" and "start".
The clues are "starting" and "start".
Fair enough. But I still don't see why a company should be forced to pay the same wages and offer the same benefits to workers in two different economies. Surely they should be set with reference to local conditions and wage rates.
Does anyone know if for example AIB or Bank of Ireland pays staff north and south the exact same wages and offer the exact same benefits. Somehow I doubt it and if this is the case why aren't the banking unions in the Republic kicking off about it.
Does anyone know if for example AIB or Bank of Ireland pays staff north and south the exact same wages and offer the exact same benefits. Somehow I doubt it and if this is the case why aren't the banking unions in the Republic kicking off about it.
You can be guarenteed that if they shut down a branch and moved it north of the border, making everybody resign and then re-apply for their same job for less money/conditions, the unions would do something about it
OneRedArmy
16/08/2007, 10:52 AM
You can be guarenteed that if they shut down a branch and moved it north of the border, making everybody resign and then re-apply for their same job for less money/conditions, the unions would do something about it
Oh come on. Off the top of my head (to the extent that I spent some time on an ongoing basis on both sides of the border) I reckon I'd have a similar living standard on 75% of my Dublin salary north of the border.
Why should Aer Lingus be forced to pay well paid pilots even more in real terms? They are not being forced to move, they jobs are being advertised and its their choice.
Aer Lingus staff are well known as being amongst the most militant in the country and its about time someone took them on.
John83
16/08/2007, 10:56 AM
Aer Lingus staff are well known as being amongst the most militant in the country and its about time someone took them on.
Someone? How about the Rod? We've already seen he's good in a scrap (http://www.rte.ie/sport/2006/1108/byrneo.html).
Aer Lingus staff are well known as being amongst the most militant in the country and its about time someone took them on.
Damn those pesky unions wanting to protect their members jobs and terms and conditions. Couldn't possibly allow the workers to still be protected, especially one that has shown itself to be so trustworthy over recent months.
Aer Lingus staff are well known as being amongst the most militant in the country and its about time someone took them on.
The main reason for making them private i.e. not semi-state company anymore. Its a lot harder to strike when you a private company that has no government to bail you out when losing money.
Dodge
16/08/2007, 11:17 AM
The main reason for making them private i.e. not semi-state company anymore. Its a lot harder to strike when you a private company that has no government to bail you out when losing money.
That makes no sense at all.
When public employees strike they put pressure on the government to assist them & this is usually by means of financial package. When a private employees strike it is not the governments responsibility.
OneRedArmy
16/08/2007, 11:24 AM
Damn those pesky unions wanting to protect their members jobs and terms and conditions. Couldn't possibly allow the workers to still be protected, especially one that has shown itself to be so trustworthy over recent months.They have a track record going back decades.
By comparison with other industries/occupations, AL employeees are very well paid by any measure.
Dodge
16/08/2007, 11:24 AM
In both cases workers strike for better conditions/wages from their employer. The government aren't bailing out anyone, they're dealing with their employees
If anything the pressures of profit would make the private sector under more pressure to sort it quickly as they can't go too long without income
You do realise that most industrial actions are brought about by Companies (including and especially state companies) breaching existing agreements? People don't vote for industrial action and to lose pay just for fun!
OneRedArmy
16/08/2007, 11:44 AM
http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0528/aerlingus.html
You don't have to go back too far to see what a reasonable bunch the AL employees are.....
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